Define "poverty." Seriously, do it.

Yesterday’s Toronto Star editorial notes a wonktastic OECD report, released last week, which shows…

by selley on Monday, October 27, 2008 6:14pm - 63 Comments

Yesterday’s Toronto Star editorial notes a wonktastic OECD report, released last week, which shows both poverty and income inequality on the rise across most of the OECD, including Canada, from the mid-1980s to the mid-2000s. Inequality fell in Ireland and Turkey; poverty fell in Belgium, Denmark, Mexico, Portugal and the United States; and both fell in France, Greece and Spain. But other than that, it’s bad news, not least for Canada.

It’s confusing news, too. The Star, as per usual, pegs the number of Ontarians living in poverty at 1.3 million, which is roughly the number that fall below Statistics Canada’s after-tax low-income cut-off (LICO), a measurement of what percentage of a household’s earnings go to essentials like food, shelter and clothing. But while they tip hat to the OECD’s analysis, the Star‘s editorialists don’t use any of its stats. Cynical readers might assume that was because it low-balled the poverty numbers, but in fact it’s the opposite. The OECD defines poverty as living with less than 50 per cent of the median income, and by that measure establishes Canada’s poverty rate at 12 per cent. That’s actually slightly higher than the LICO, which is 11.4 per cent for Canada and 11.1 per cent in Ontario.

Two totally different measurements of poverty; two nearly identical results. But neither LICO nor less-than-half-the-median is an absolute measurement of poverty. They’re both relative. Give every Canadian a cheque worth 20 per cent of his annual income and the OECD poverty rate would stay exactly the same. Everyone would just move proportionally up the ladder, as would the median, and the bottom rungs would still be considered impoverished despite their newfound spending power. [UPDATE: A weak analogy, at best. What really happens is the ladder moves up to higher-income territory, and everyone stays on their rung.] And that’s fine, to a point. It seems a little odd to me that the OECD presents income inequality and poverty as if they were totally separate phenomena, when the poverty measurement is itself, in many ways, a measurement of inequality. But I realize internationally comparable figures—the lifeblood of colossi like the OECD—are few and far between.

But that’s where the OECD report gets really interesting:

Several OECD countries … have “official” measures of poverty that rely on “absolute” standards, typically in the form of the cost of a basket of goods and services required to assure minimum living conditions and indexed for price changes over time (e.g. United States). While the use of “absolute” thresholds poses difficult methodological issues for cross-country comparisons (Förster, 1994), one way to illustrate how “absolute” poverty has changed over time is to use a relative threshold in a base year which is kept unchanged in real terms in later years. One such measure, based on a threshold set at half of median income in the mid-1990s, shows that—even when relative income poverty is rising—most OECD countries achieved significant reductions in absolute poverty between the mid-1990s and mid-2000s.

In English: when measured in some sort of absolute terms, poverty has fallen in all 15 of the OECD countries on the chart above except Germany, and it has plummeted in the nations to the left of the chart—Hungary, Greece, Great Britain, Norway and Austria. Yet of these 14 nations that cut poverty on their own terms, the OECD’s measurement has poverty increasing in seven of them.

You’d have to ask a statistician why. But from a political standpoint, to my mind, it underscores just how crucial it is for governments to establish these in-house measurements of poverty. Ireland’s “deprivation index,” for example, states that an Irishman ought to have access to basics like “two pairs of strong shoes,” a “roast dinner once a week,” and so on. If he doesn’t, and if his income is less than 60 per cent of the median, then he’s considered to be living in poverty. The Star, to its credit, suggested just such an approach coming up on two years ago. And Ontario promises to have “measures and targets” in place by the end of the year. It can’t come too soon, even if we end up with a different measurement for each province. But you’d think the feds, too, would rather point at a real target and get on with it than bicker about the ideological importance of income equality with anti-poverty activists, who can legitimately claim to have no choice but to use relative statistics like LICO. Yet even the Liberal platform, not that it’s worth much now, proposed to measure and cut poverty using the same old LICOs, when a promise to adopt an empirical approach wouldn’t have cost a dime.

I am not someone who dismisses the importance of inequality on grounds that, hey, you can either afford a loaf of bread or you can’t, and if you can, then leave the rich alone. But it’s certainly far more important that all Canadians be able to afford bread than that the richest Canadians can afford more, and fancier, baked goods than the poorest. One problem at a time, in other words. And 141 years into the history of Canadian poverty seems like as good a time as any to decide what on earth it actually means.

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  • http://www.truemuse.wordpress.com truemuse

    Well if your wife disclosed her income to you that is one situation. If your order had not been withdrawn from the FRO on the advice of lawyers due to the inadequacies of the FRO had administering payments, that is another situation. The process by which the government asserted your claim in court leads to revised regulations attending the Support Arrears and Enforcment Act and academically speaking, think of this: if on the one hand I assert my claim to support and on the other hand the government asserts my claim, how are the reasons for judgement different? It results in changing regulations so that now, in fact, the FRO will not disclose payor income directly to recipients, they will only enforce the amount written in an order and they make requirements that orders must be varied (go back in court) to adjust for income payments. This is such a legal heavy process. It would be easier to do all of this through Revenue Canada, wouldn’t it? When it’s Gov’t v. Gov’t in court all the time, we can guess who always wins?

  • skydiver

    My former wife did not disclose her income to me. I took it to court and represented myself. One has to determine if the payor’s wage increase is substantial enough to warrant an application to vary. The retroactive amount was added to my FRO payments in installments.

  • http://www.truemuse.wordpress.com truemuse

    Well skydiver that is what I meant by the process by which the FRO bullies families back into court. You enforced the disclosure order through a return to court (that was 2. in my post above) (you didn’t use representation and I noted this also, that 40% of people in family court don’t) and THEN the FRO acted to enforce. This type of litigiousness between parents that the government promotes is just wrong. Incomes could be divided using other programs, and this was just the point of the OECD report: a gov’t can spend and spend (in this example, the spending is to maintain a beastly family court system) and still make no dents in poverty reduction.

  • skydiver

    I agree there is a better way – however, I did not find the process painful and just looked at it as a good reason to take a day off work!

  • madeyoulook

    “Elimination” of child poverty is about ensuring a minimal standard of health (nutrition as well as physical well-being) and education (including early childhood), is it not?

    Then, Austin, it’s time to declare VICTORY and an END to child poverty, as those conditions exist pretty much already. With the depressing exception of First Nations, which require the federal government to have the cojones to attack the autocratic nature of chiefs and band councils and actually empower individuals with such things as rights and responsibilities.

    Seriously, how many families (outside of the pre-acknowledged cesspools of many reserves) on welfare are missing drinkable water, plumbing, and electricity? The parents of these kids have the $ means to offer nutrition to their kids, but is it too much to ask how much gets squandered on booze, cigarettes, drugs, gambling, etc. (yes, yes, the dreaded beer and popcorn argument…). Once again it comes back to the parents. You want an end to child poverty? Ask poor adults to either smarten up with what they have been given or to stop having children, or take the kids away from them at birth and hand them to couples who are b!tching about medicare coverage for their fertility treatments. Shovelling more and more money is insane. Food banks delivering boxes and boxes of food to an apartment with only beer in the fridge, the latest Xbox hooked up to the TV, a phone with all the call-display and call-waiting bells and whistles, and two cell phones, is insane. And it’s not fixable, really, unless you want to get all authoritarian against failing parents. Which I doubt anybody is ready to do. So either shrug your shoulders and say we’ve done all we can and it’s up to the parents to think straight, or give up on this silly unwinnable “war.”

  • Andrew

    myl: families that make enough money for essentials but waste them on booze or consumer electronics wouldn’t be counted by a poverty measure. It would measure how many people couldn’t afford these things, not how many people actually go without them whether they can afford them or not.

    In other words, you’re appealing to the ugly side of conservatism–”Lazy welfare mama”.

  • Sean S.

    “Ask poor adults to either smarten up with what they have been given or to stop having children, or take the kids away from them at birth and hand them to couples who are b!tching about medicare coverage for their fertility treatments. Shovelling more and more money is insane. Food banks delivering boxes and boxes of food to an apartment with only beer in the fridge, the latest Xbox hooked up to the TV, a phone with all the call-display and call-waiting bells and whistles, and two cell phones, is insane.”

    Any credible evidence to support such a blanket generalization?

  • madeyoulook

    Andrew, if we keep defining poverty as below some percentage of a population’s median, we’re actually not measuring anything useful except disparity. Certainly not ability to pay for food, clothing, shelter.

    Andrew & Sean, as someone who has abandoned his prior pretty busy efforts at community charity because of the above “blanket generalization” playing itself over and over far too often, and as someone who continues to see it in my line of work assisting the public, you may take the above scenario as a summary of repeated personal observation. Feel free to acord it whatever weight your own life experiences are prepared to tolerate.

    If we could find some way to make life miserable for the freeloaders, we could easily afford far more luxurious charity for the “deserving” needy. Sadly, the freeloaders are bankrupting the system and making hard-hearted ugly conservatives like me despair that the system is broken.

  • Sisyphus

    I recall reading somewhere long ago during some long abandoned study that an ideal benefit system should plan for an abuse level of between 1 to 3%.

    Abuse being defined as benefit fraud and system error such as inadvertent overpayment.

    Anything below that level penalizes too many deserving beneficiaries who fall between the cracks.
    Anything above that level results in a loss of public confidence in the system.

    As I say, that was a long time ago.

    But currently, when both welfare rates and minimum wage are below any measurable poverty rate, I honestly believe any system abuse is overshadowed by abuse of the poor.

  • madeyoulook

    But currently, when both welfare rates and minimum wage are below any measurable poverty rate, I honestly believe any system abuse is overshadowed by abuse of the poor.

    Which brings us back, alas, to the affordability limit in the definition of poverty, required before any fair examination of minimum wage is possible: (A) Shelter, Kraft Dinner, running water and a change of clothes? (B) A plus a phone? (C) B plus a TV, with or without extended cable? (D) C plus more food? (E) D plus a computer with dial-up? (E+) high-speed? (F) E or E+ plus a night out once a month? (G) F plus a thousand per year to sock away in a TFSA?

    The preceding paragraph is unfortunately and necessarily glib, approaching a let-them-eat-cake rudeness. But the original challenge (“define poverty”) holds. I doubt this country could agree on a consensus definition, ever.

    But I will submit the following: Any social benefits plan that makes working an uncompetitive option is crazy. Get a job? And lose everything the state gives me for nothing? Why should I? If the subsidized poor can clearly see the marginal-cost punishment of leaving welfare for entry-level employment without grasping the self-sufficiency further down the horizon, we will continue to have a substantial subsidized poverty class.

    And I will submit the following: Welfare SHOULD be a hit to someone’s dignity. We’ll keep you alive until you pull yourself up. But for god’s sake start pulling, would you please?

    And, last submission (for now): Hiking minimum wage to some sisyphian-defined level of acceptability is either a job-killing guarantee of further expansion of our poverty class, or a long-awaited method to get employers to pay a fair price for labour, depending on one’s philosophical leanings. But I hope that very few would argue that hiking minimum wage would increase available jobs.

  • Andrew

    “We’ll keep you alive until you pull yourself up. But for god’s sake start pulling, would you please?”

    You realise that for many on welfare, their marginal tax rate is 105%+? That’s why we need something other than welfare–and I submit that your ‘let ‘em rot in the streets’ strategy doesn’t seem like the best alternative.

  • madeyoulook

    Words-in-mouth syndrome, Andrew. Please expose my strategy to let ‘em rot in the streets in any of my comments, and I will most humbly apologize. Otherwise, grow up, retract the charge, and stop mischaracterizing people.

    You realise that for many on welfare, their marginal tax rate is 105%+? You realize I had a paragraph just above the one you quoted that makes that very point? Just to help orient you, it’s the one that has the sentence “Any social benefits plan that makes working an uncompetitive option is crazy.” Go ahead and peek. Last I checked, it’s still there.

  • Andrew

    Arguing that trying to reduce poverty in futile because the goalposts keep changing and poor people buy beer and popcorn seems to be your position. If so, I don’t think I was mischaracterizing.

    What would you suggest, then?

  • madeyoulook

    Andrew, I don’t think I have been that obtuse with my writing today, but let me try to summarize.

    There is abuse of the welfare system. Welfare that is (a) too generous and (b) not “evil” enough to root out the able-bodied loafs will both encourage abuse and prevent any incentive to get back to work. Child poverty comes from poor people reproducing, not some sort of societal urge to punish children for breathing. No amount of tolerable social re-engineering will put an end to child poverty. Stop being so generous, you will have poor kids. Get too generous, you will have creeping socialism which will make EVERYONE poor. Deny the poor the right to reproduce and I will join the rioting protest with you to knock down that totalitarian atrocity.

    There. Got it?

    Nowhere have I advocated a strategy of letting people “rot in the streets,” and I note that you have slimely avoided my challenge to either put up or shut up. If your next comment fails to retract your false charge, you will join the small ranks of commenters I ignore for precisely that same reason.

    As to what I suggest: There may be room to enhance the reward for a welfare recipient to start earning a living without the automatic marginal financial penalty. Although the continued raising of the minimum income subject to any tax at all certainly helps, and kids count as deductions to raise that limit further, GST rebates are in place for those with low income, food is not subject to GST, there’s the UCCB, and medicare and public schools already exist, and most schools waive those extra fees for families who are truly hurting, etc. Whatever benefits are offered to those on welfare (dental coverage, a pair of eyeglasses once every couple of years, job-skills training courses, or whatever) could remain on offer while the beneficiary has upgraded to working poor. Anything to make “working for a living” less unattractive to those presently not working for a living. Anything to model “doing something useful” for one’s kids.

    I await your retraction for our conversation to continue.

  • Austin So

    “Elimination” of child poverty is about ensuring a minimal standard of health (nutrition as well as physical well-being) and education (including early childhood), is it not?

    Then, Austin, it’s time to declare VICTORY and an END to child poverty, as those conditions exist pretty much already.

    If you cared to notice, I didn’t stipulate what that minimum was.

    In a civilized and supposedly advanced society that Canada claims to be, this minimum is going to be a helluva lot higher than the minimum in say countries in Africa or South America.

    In the end, my point is that by providing services directed specifically towards children through federal/provincial programs in infrastructure, rather than as handouts like the CCTB, state-run programs have a better chance at limiting scenarios of system exploitation (which is much smaller I think than you like to portray).

    So, in my mind there are concrete ways that can directly target child poverty that bypass whatever limited abuse of the system occurs by their parents, without being disingenuous “feel-good” policies.

    And the point is this: very few people who are born into poverty are able to pull themselves out of it, even though they may be among the brightest or thoughtful kids out there, because they know of no other alternatives.

    Austin

  • madeyoulook

    So, in my mind there are concrete ways that can directly target child poverty that bypass whatever limited abuse of the system occurs by their parents, without being disingenuous “feel-good” policies.

    Well let’s hear them, Austin. Your post sounds like you don’t trust many poor parents to bring their kids up to be productive members of society. The poor kids “know no other alternatives.” Maybe if poverty hurt more than it does presently, these poor kids would look around at alternatives to the lives their parents led? Maybe the parents themselves would look for those alternatives immediately?

    But if you start suggesting that taking these preschool kids away from their already-idle parents and warehousing them in a public-service union-barnacled grand scheme public daycare system, you will have an uphill climb to convince me that you’ve helped the kids or society. Daycare for welfare-parents to work? Cool, way cool. Daycare for daycare’s sake, to take the screamimg kids off the parent’s hands while the soaps are on? Oh so not cool.

    What else do you have in mind? A reduction in the monthly welfare cheque, so that we can afford NCLIC’s (nutrition centres for low-income children) where two (three?) times a day the tykes shuffle off to get fed, because we don’t trust the parents to feed them properly? How for down the road of “it takes a federal government” do you want parenting to go?

  • Andrew

    myl, I’m sorry you feel I mischaracterized your position. It seems you took me rather literally. No, you didn’t explicitly suggest that people should be left to rot in the streets, but I think that theme runs through statements such as this one you just made:

    “Maybe if poverty hurt more than it does presently”

    How much more should it hurt?

  • madeyoulook

    Andrew:

    “I’m sorry you feel that way” is a bit weasel-ish, but I will accept.

    As to how much more poverty should hurt? Enough to get more people to explore alternatives that should clearly hurt less.

    Lefties who want everyone to live “in dignity”: spare us the syrupy sermon. Which brings me to my best attempt to define poverty as per Chris’ request. Poverty SHOULD suck, should be painful, should be at least a little miserable. Enough to encourage those who can to get out of it. To free society up to be more generous to the truly deserving disabled people who can not / no longer contribute (while getting at least a little more brutal against those who can). And those able-bodied who feel stuck in miserable poverty with no hope for recovery are invited to take their medicare cards with them to the mental health clinic for assistance, and to their social worker for some more life skills.

    Let me mischievously turn the question around to you: How much more comfortable should we make poverty, and how can anyone claim that any such strategy will actually reduce poverty?

  • Austin So

    Well let’s hear them, Austin. Your post sounds like you don’t trust many poor parents to bring their kids up to be productive members of society.

    Try not to project your attitudes onto my writing, myl.

    Children growing up in a low-income household are inherently restricted in the breadth of environment they are exposed to during their development. They don’t go to summer camps. They don’t go to afterschool programs. They don’t have the opportunity to learn music. and more often than not, as children of the *working* poor, they also don’t get a lot of face time with their parents, they don’t get as much time being mentored, and it is actually *cheaper* to get the x-box or the computer or the TV to occupy their time.

    This is what I mean by “knowing no other alternatives”, myl.

    The issue then is whether you believe that our society can actually help these disadvantaged kids to realize their full potential, or forever stifle their growth and perpetuate this as an economic caste system.

    Austin

    BTW…we sent our kids to ECE (or daycare), not because we wanted to absolve ourselves of our duties as parents, but because the ECE program provided an environment that we simply could not provide for our children’s growth by ourselves. I don’t doubt they would have been fine without it, but they are light years better for it. Funny thing about pooling and disbursing capital resources in the form of taxes, eh?

  • madeyoulook

    Children growing up in a low-income household are inherently restricted in the breadth of environment they are exposed to during their development. They don’t go to summer camps. They don’t go to afterschool programs. They don’t have the opportunity to learn music. and more often than not, as children of the *working* poor, they also don’t get a lot of face time with their parents, they don’t get as much time being mentored, and it is actually *cheaper* to get the x-box or the computer or the TV to occupy their time.

    Try to read my writing before replying, Austin. What are welfare recipients up to all day? Pas much, so facetime with a parent can’t be much of an issue. Unless you are characterizing the quality of the face. And I explicitly stated: “Daycare for welfare-parents to work? Cool, way cool. Daycare for daycare’s sake, to take the screamimg kids off the parent’s hands while the soaps are on? Oh so not cool.”

    All those opportunities you say are denied children of poor parents (summer camp, music programs at school): why is that, when there are so many camps for underprivileged kids, when any school I have ever dealt with waives fees for these extras so that the kids can participate with their classmates, when there are Scouts and Guides and Big Brothers and Sisters and community afterschool sports and culture programs. Is there something about the parents’ decision making abilities that prevents these kids from benefitting from these programs? And if so, what makes you think that spending taxpayer dough on more bodies of water will somehow lead all these horses to them, forcing them to drink?

    As to your light-years-ahead kids thanks to ECE. Way to perpetuate the caste system. You want to stifle inequality, maybe you should keep your kids locked up with no opportunities for development, lower the societal average for productivity, and everyone’s happy. Kidding. I said I was kidding! Seriously, I am thrilled your kids got something out of a valuable program. But please explain, if you could afford the choice of ECE to give the fruit of your loins a leg up, why all taxpayers should chip in for your parental choice? I bet they would enjoy a night at the opera, maybe we should subsidize the arts to– oh, never mind.

  • Andrew

    I’ve been very clear. I think we should determine a basket of goods involving a nutritious diet, modest accommodations, clothing, etc. and establish that as the measure of absolute poverty. Use that to design a guaranteed minimum income with more reasonable clawbacks than what we see at present.

    I would also include some things such as eye exams every two years in OHIP once more. Some minimal amount of dental coverage is probably also not out of line.

    I guess it might be easier to describe my philosophy. I think the market does what it does quite well, and that any public policy should be cognizant of market behaviour and aim to harness it wherever possible. I further believe that it is fairly inexcusable that we as a country leave people–especially those suffering with mental illness–to rot on the streets, poor people without opportunities for advancement, lower-middle class teens with less access to post-secondary education, and so on. It’s also a huge shame that we foolishly try to tax corporations to pay for these things under the false assumption that people largely do not bear that taxation indirectly through lower wages.

    By the way, you ‘weaseled’ your way out of answering the question of just how much more poverty should hurt. I’ve seen it, and it doesn’t seem like a picnic to me. What do you propose? A 20% cut in benefits?

  • Andrew

    “But please explain, if you could afford the choice of ECE to give the fruit of your loins a leg up, why all taxpayers should chip in for your parental choice?”

    Same reason we have public schools? Or public roads?

    I’m surprised that you could be so opposed to this kind of investment in human capital. I know many daycares are merely babysitting factories, but true ECE is an exceptional opportunity to teach children when they are at their most receptive.

  • Jack Mitchell

    Pardon me for butting in, but I think you guys have your wires crossed. Seems to me that by “poverty” MYL means those on social assitance, whereas Andrew and Austin mean the working poor.

    The problem is not that welfare is too generous or that the minimum wage is too high (!), it’s that large chunks of the population collect welfare / EI while working hard, yeoman-style, under the radar of Revenue Canada. Assuming we could reform the system to get rid of the black market labour economy, we would still be faced with the fact that there will always be a lot of people who work hard and are still very poor. “Ending child poverty” means government programs to help the children of such families have a chance to escape the cycle of minimum wage poverty and to keep them from dropping out of society. Even from the POV of cold economics that’s a good investment for non-poor taxpayers.

  • madeyoulook

    Actually, Andrew, except for your mischaracterization of other people’s words, you and I are a lot closer than you think.

    No argument on the shameful management of serious mental illness. All sides of the political spectrum deserve shame (the left for the “dignity” of “liberating” people from institutions when they could not fend for themselves, the right for the welfare cheques being way cheaper than proper treatment in institutions).

    I learned from high school economics (if only more policy makers could remember at least that level) that decisions are made on the margins. So, yes, yes, yes, a decision to get off the dole and get to work has got to be way more marginally rewarding than it is now.

    I don’t know how much more helpful I can be than “it’s gotta hurt enough to make people not want it” for you. It must certainly not be a picnic. Let me try another way, at the risk of being accused of being even more evil. You’ve had “X” years to get a job, any job, you are able-bodied and able-minded? Get a job in the next “Y” months, pal, because the gravy train pulls into its last station for you after that. Not fair to the kids? You’re right, your not providing properly for your kids is pretty shameful and irresponsible, and it will get downright dangerous in “Y” months when the cheques stop. Shall we call children’s services now or only in “Y-1″ months?

    I will therefore repeat my Q to you. How much more comfortable should we make poverty, and how can you possibly expect increasing its comfort to lead to less of it? I will look for your solution to this tricky puzzle in the AM. Good night.

  • Austin So

    But please explain, if you could afford the choice of ECE to give the fruit of your loins a leg up, why all taxpayers should chip in for your parental choice? I bet they would enjoy a night at the opera, maybe we should subsidize the arts to– oh, never mind.

    The question is why wouldn’t you want these kinds of programs available for every kid? Why wouldn’t you want to expand their horizons and their world view? Do we want to be behind every other nation in the world, or do we want to lead?

    If you disagree with this, then you should also disagree with the notion of a public school system (as Andrew already mentioned).

    Society and its demands evolve, myl. Projecting 50 year old paradigms onto present day society just doesn’t work.

    Austin

    P.S. if you must know, we were lucky to have had our kids in the program that we did because of my association with a University (just to piss you off even more). There are horror stories of parents who didn’t have the choices we did, who in fact had to pay more than us or who had to drive across the city to find even a spot of significantly poorer quality for their kids. Same money invested in different ways can lead to very different qualities of service.

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