Vancouver South recount: Don’t shoot the (electoral) messenger, y’all.

by kadyomalley on Monday, October 27, 2008 1:08pm - 170 Comments

Okay, first off, I don’t blame people for raising a ruckus over the revelation that the judge who performed the recount in Vancouver South last week didn’t bother to open all the ballot boxes, instead choosing to re-check a random sampling of the 42,076 votes that were cast on election day – particularly when the margin between Liberal incumbent Ujjal Dosanjh and Conservative challenger Wai Young  dropped to just 22 votes. At the same time, however, it seems as though someone should probably point out that, contrary to the carefully coddled conspiracy theories so cherished by some denizens of the blogosphere, Elections Canada had nothing to do with the decision to conduct a partial recount, which was made by the presiding judge – in this case, British Columbia Supreme Court Associate Chief Justice Patrick Dohm – in accordance with the guidelines set out by the Canada Elections Act, and also detailed here. Not even the Chief Electoral Officer himself has the power to appeal or overturn the result, which is considered final.

If this is sufficiently disturbing as to threaten a mass loss of faith in our electoral system, the solution would be to amend the current Act to remove any allowance for judicial discretion in determining how to proceed after a recount is ordered. Of course, given the sheer volume of ballots that would have to be re-recorded, however, that might also mean raising the threshold for an automatic recount – which is currently triggered by any margin closer than 1/1000th of total votes cast – or, alternately, relax the requirement that the judge examine every ballot personally, and instead designate clerks or court officers – or other agreed-upon third parties – as proxies. There are, in other words, any number of ways to improve the existing recount process, now that we’ve become aware of a possible inconsistency – perceived or otherwise — not one of which requires the now familiar demonizing of Elections Canada as a catspaw for the Liberal Party.

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  • Bruce

    Maybe there is more to this than meets the eye;

    Oct.26, 2008

    An Indo-Canadian Newspaper reports on this riding’s election:

    “The LINK has also learned that there were many irregularities in voting in the riding with one particular poll – which had the maximum of 500 votes to be cast, but allegedly had a final count of more than 900 votes with more than 800 allegedly credited to the Liberal candidate.: Ref:

    http://www.thelinkpaper.ca/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1224526729&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1

  • Bruce
  • Marc L

    Come on Kady, no need to play dumb. With the Canadian public unable to have their say when something like this happens, we look to people that have the ability to raise the issue (like yourself and others in the media) and bring it out to the public.

    This is Canada, not a developing country with a corrupt government. We’re supposed to adhere to the highest standards, not allow this type of situation to happen. It is definitely a black eye for Canada.

  • dan in van

    Hey Karol, nice softball pitch of pawlak’s name but it missed the plate.
    Kinda like me tarring all CONs with Rosamond Luke’s troubles.
    Certainly agree, the Liberal party if it’s wisdom is intact should be implementing ideas like issue-oriented mail- and email-outs. This was not meant to besmirch the CON mindset that any injustice is best served by a wailing pitch for cash.
    Now, you’ve just got to spin this ‘defrauded at the recount!’ into more ‘in-and-out gold’ to help spin a web of halloween Tory treats.
    And again, i agree that a recount under these circumstances should result in a true recount. But hey, keep bleeting.

  • Just Visiting’s Mother

    The latest wee bit of good news….Thursday Wai Young heads to Court requesting a re-count of the re-count!!

    http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1035772

  • http://drdawgsblawg.blogspot.com Dr.Dawg

    JVM:

    Great news. First time in my life I’ve ever hoped a Conservative might win something. We’ll all benefit from this, right across the spectrum.

  • Archie

    Macleans is also carrying an article on the appeal.

    http://www.macleans.ca/canada/wire/article.jsp?content=n1027127A

  • http://www.bluelikeyou.com/ Joanne (T.B.)

    Yeah Dawg! This is really uplifting! We should all support her courage.

  • Karol Karolak

    Ultimate Liberal Fear: China Rising in Toronto

    It seems to me that Liberano$ plan of action was to do some horse trading in BC. If they knew that they were going to lose both riding in BC in recounts their strategy to go with the recount in Vancouver South on Friday and Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca on Monday made lot of sense.

    If it was not for the blog burst that started on the weekend they could have easily thrown Keith Martin under the bus, and let Conservatives send another lawyer Troy DeSouza to Ottawa and call it fair tonight.

    If that was the plan than it would explain MSM’s silence on Vancouver South recount scandal over the weekend after the story broke on Friday.

    Just look at political implications of Ujjal Dosanjh’s possible loss in a recount. Two largest China Towns in Canada are in Toronto and Vancouver. Chinese community in Canada is very conservative

    If Wai Young were to win recount in Vancouver South riding than her win could spell a doom to Liberal’s grip on their last stronghold “Fortress Toronto”.

    Chinese community in Toronto buoyed by this stunning upset and Wai Young’s victory might develop some very peculiar and very dangerous ideas like: have their own Conservative representatives in Ottawa representing true values of their community, worse still they might even try to implement these ideas in next election or even by-election and stage more upsets in downtown Toronto. Such development must be avoided at all costs as it might deal final blow to the “Liberal Dragon”.

    We will see, but I expect that MSM will pick up on Vancouver South re-count scandal as soon as Troy DeSouza is declared a winner in Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca re-count and they will try very hard to put some positive spin on it.

    Plan “B”

    If you watched a movie “Wag the Dog” and if we are following the script it might turn out that Liberals will try to create even bigger scandal at Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca re-count than what we have read about Vancouver South they might just do that to divert public attention from what is really important here; danger of “China Rising in Toronto”.

  • Just Visiting’s Mother

    You know Dawg, I haven’t much cared for some of your banter over the last election but you often deserve and command attention and I’ve found your view worthwhile. You don’t just fall back on party rhetoric and I can’t stand how good your memory is. Dawg you are right in saying that this re-count benefits us all, to see this process through to a just, and perceived to be just, result. One last word, I’m not really JV’s mother (thankfully). On to Thursday. And many thanks Kady!

  • stephen

    She is exercising her rights….thats good…it was difficult to get to excited until the alleged aggreived party did something.

    Not to pick on elections canada….but….I know they arent supposed to challenge a decision or be the appeal, but wouldnt they also be the ones who might challenege judicial decisions if they felt that the decision was made in an incorrect manner, not follwoing the rules so to speak….

    Anyway, maybe they do feel the rules were followed…whatever….best response is count the votes again, once more only, properly this time, and be done with it. Nothing worse than this stuff when it gets out of hand….thank goodness there wasnt a majority minority decision hanging on this…. can you imagine.

  • Wascally Wabbit

    Karol – Jarrid – and all the others – you can self identify – to save me the time -
    this was a drive by – just to keep you apes on your toes – just go touch your collective forelocks and tell your Master – the peasants are forming a revolution Master – they do not obey your commands!

  • http://drdawgsblawg.blogspot.com Dr.Dawg

    Archie, et al.

    Well, yes, congratulations all around.

    But why can’t Maclean’s get it right?

    “The Elections Act gives the judge supervising the recount the option of counting all the valid votes, plus spoiled and rejected ballots, or only those from a sampling of ballot boxes.”

    Show me just where that “sampling” can be found in the Canada Elections Act. This is arrant nonsense.

  • Karol Karolak

    dan in van,
    You do not have to worry about Liberal fundrising anymore. Dalton McGuinty has big abitions for his little brother David. Dalton has his hands on the second largest public money pit in Canada worth around 100 billion dollars a year. Liberano$ are broke so who is able and willing to pay the piper calls the tunes. As soon as David becomes a new Capo Di Tutti Capi of Liberano Gang Dalton will give $1100.00 Christmas bonus to 10000 loyal civil servants in Ontario and they will donate that money to LPC (they will keep tax refunds). Eleven million dollars is just a drop in a bucket compared to 100 billios Dalton sqanders every year so we are not going to even notice it.
    Cheers,

  • http://economics.about.com Mike Moffatt

    “But why can’t Maclean’s get it right?”

    Dr. Dawg,

    Why do you think the judge got it wrong, then? Certainly you think the judge would understand the law.

    Again, I don’t think there’s a clear-cut interpretation here. But given that (if you believe Young’s claim that the judge didn’t look at all the boxes) a judge intepreted the law the same way Kady has, how can you say she got it wrong?

    I really, really hope this does go to an appeal – because this law is an absolute mess and needs to be clarified. But until the courts intepret these clauses, aren’t we all just jumping the gun a little?

  • http://www.bluelikeyou.com/ Joanne (T.B.)

    Keith Martin won his riding in the recount:

    “Conservative challenger Troy DeSouza called off the recount after it became apparent that the number of disputed ballots would not bridge the gap between him and Martin.” – From the Times Colonist.

    And that’s the way it should be.

    Congratulations to Dr. Martin. I am very happy about this because he has been doing some excellent work regarding free speech vs. the HRCs.

  • http://drdawgsblawg.blogspot.com Dr.Dawg

    Mike:

    Seriously, the law isn’t written in Aramaic. It’s not subject to divination. Just show me where the Canada Elections Act allows for “sampling” and I’ll cheerfully concede the point.

  • Karol Karolak

    It seems that the Court Party is sweating bullets tonight. Troy DeSouza is a lawyer so his entire future professional career is on line in this fiasco. Poor guy had no other choice than validate partial re-count decision of Justice Patrick Dohm from last Friday. The next thing we will hear that Justice Dohm stopped the re-count on Friday at Wai Young’s request or that there was some misunderstanding to that effect.
    MSM plays the costs angle.

    Just read for yourself:
    http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=5f3488f5-ab19-4f17-b9db-c968be5c73e6

    ===Keith Martin wins election in recount===
    68 votes separated Martin from Conservative challenger
    Times Colonist
    Published: Monday, October 27, 2008
    Keith Martin has won re-election as Liberal MP for Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca after a recount was called off this afternoon.

    Conservative challenger Troy DeSouza called off the recount after it became apparent that the number of disputed ballots would not bridge the gap between him and Martin.

    In the election night count, on Oct. 14, Martin won by a 68-vote margin.

    Martin had 20,042 votes to DeSouza’s 19,974.

    The margin of votes between DeSouza and Martin widened to 70 ballots in the recount, not counting 67 disputed ballots which were not resolved because DeSouza terminated the recount.

    “It worked out in the best spirit of democracy and luckily we came out on the right side,” said Martin.

    DeSouza had sought and was granted a judicial recount.

    The margin of defeat in the original vote was too wide to trigger an automatic recount.

    DeSouza said earlier that he wanted a recount to maintain public confidence in the electoral system, given the likelihood of human error during the long and complicated election-night proceedings.

    Martin did not oppose the recount.

    DeSouza’s lawyer Bruce Hallsor provided 18 sworn affidavits by Conservative party scrutineers who alleged some ballots were rejected or improperly counted. For example, one scrutineer alleged Elections Canada counted a ballot where the person marked an “X” on the candidate’s name, not in the ballot’s circle.

    Numerous affidavits alleged some polling stations recorded more or fewer votes than the actual number of voters.

    The cost of the recount is covered by Elections Canada, including the $750-a-day charge for the Empress room.

    Both the Liberals and Conservatives are each permitted to bring three lawyers and 25 staff.

    Elections Canada provides their own officials and legal staff from Ottawa.

    The Times Colonist won a precedent-setting decision to attend and report on the judicial recount. It’s believed to be the first time a media organization has been allowed to witness the Elections Canada proceedings, which have previously been held in secret.

  • dej rabel

    i love that you are not only against the media saying anything against the liberals (Mike Duffy) but now you seem to be against democracy getting in the way of the Liberals too……..good job Kady we love you

  • My opinion

    I guess you’ve all noticed that the recount about Young and Dosanjh is going to appeal. Let’s see what the decision is. Considering the concerns of the public, there should be another recount. Also noticed that the Toronto Star does state that there were only 28 boxes out of 184. So I wasn’t fibbing!

  • http://economics.about.com Mike Moffatt

    “Seriously, the law isn’t written in Aramaic. It’s not subject to divination. Just show me where the Canada Elections Act allows for “sampling” and I’ll cheerfully concede the point.”

    Show me where it *excludes* it.

    You’re reading in the word ‘all’ – which may or may not be appropriate.

    Again, if it’s such an ‘obvious’ point, then how did the judge get it so wrong (assuming that Young isn’t either mistaken or completely full of it)? You haven’t explained that part.

    I’ve been around enough judges in my career to know they make mistakes… but never to level of complete incompetence (or corruption) that you describe.

  • BR

    60 minutes/hr. x 8 work hours/day = 480 work-minutes/day.

    480 work-minutes x 10 ballots reviewed/minute* = 4800 ballots reviewed/day.

    * A very conservative estimate.

    50,000 ballots / 4800 ballots/day = 10.42 days.

    Would it suck? Absolutely. But suck it up, princess. You get paid $240,000/year. Think of it as the best paying menial job in Canada.

  • http://economics.about.com Mike Moffatt

    And just to put this on the record – I don’t support anything less than an absolute and full recount and I really hope the Tories re-write the act. I hope Young appeals this and I hope she wins and I hope a precedent is set for future recounts.

  • Karol Karolak

    Now we have to fight for complete re-count at Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca riding.
    People resigned before election day and votes for them were still counted and this is no different.
    If Troy DeSouza does not want to be an MP anymore he might resign after the recount is done and we will have by-election but we should not tolerate such blatant manipulation as took place tonight.

    If BC Court of Appeals needs a precedent of stopped re-count to save the face of the judge they can find it in their law books and not create precedent after the fact.
    That is an outrage.

  • dan in van

    Hey Karol, so that’s how Big Oil is getting littl’ Stephen’s bell rung? I knew there had to be something fishy, other than helping bail out his bogus lawsuits (see alan riddell) and getting that mystery money for that leadership run he had. Was it Austrian, German or Australian?
    Back on the real subject, there needs to be an automatic total recount triggered when the margin is this close. Instead of veils and other rigamarole, let’s hope the parties in parliament can put their disagreements aside to put this on their plate sometime in the next year.
    Especially now that Harper has decided to park his ‘law-and-order’ costume in the closet until the next election…

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