Committee business – Maybe thirteen isn’t such an unlucky number after all.

by kadyomalley on Tuesday, November 4, 2008 10:10am - 41 Comments

As first rumoured right here on ITQ, and reported today by the Globe and Mail, the Conservatives are plunging ahead with their plan to seize control of certain House committees by forcing the Liberals to give up one of the four seats currently held by the official opposition – and by the sounds of it, it’s going to be up to the NDP to make sure that the minority government doesn’t end up with de facto majority power:

Party whips and House leaders will decide the distribution of seats over the next three weeks as they prepare for the return of Parliament on Nov. 18. Party representation on committees – where much of the real business of government is done – is supposed to roughly mirror their proportion of seats in the House of Commons.

With a formula of one seat on a 12-member committee for every 25 or 26 seats a party has in the House of Commons, the Tories, with 143 MPs, can make a case that they should have six seats instead of the five they are currently allotted.

If that argument prevails, the Tories would have the same number of seats on each Commons committee as the opposition for the first time since Stephen Harper became Prime Minister in 2006. His minority government would in effect have a majority on the committees where opposition members sit as chair.

[…]

The Liberals are showing a willingness to give up their fourth seat on each of the committees after their caucus shrank to 77 MPs from 95.

“The numbers are negotiated between all parties and reflect as much as possible the makeup of the House,” said Patrick McQuilken, who works in the office of Liberal House Leader Ralph Goodale.

NDP Whip Yvon Godin said his party is “absolutely” planning to fight to increase its single seat to two – and to prevent the Conservatives from increasing their power on the committees.

“One way or the other, the government is a minority government, and they have to stay as a minority in the committees,” Mr. Godin said. “I don’t see how they can have a majority at committees if they are a minority government.”

As far as I know, this is the first time that we’ve seen an actual formula proposed for dividing up committee memberships – which is, apparently, one for seat at the table for “every 25 or 26 seats”  in the House, which doesn’t seem to correspond with what has actually been done in the past – see the breakdowns for past minority parliaments here – with one exception (Joe Clark in 1979), the government had always held one seat less than a majority – which, on a 12-member committee, would be five seats. In 2000, the Liberals won 172 out of 301 seats – 57% of the House – which gave them nine out of sixteen seats at committee, with three going to the Canadian Alliance, two to the Bloc Quebecois and one each for the Progressive Conservatives and the NDP. (After the merger, the newly formed Conservative Party kept all four seats.)

Even during his first term in office, when Jean Chretien controlled 60% of the House – 177 out of 295 seats – and neither the NDP nor the Progressive Conservatives reaching official party status – the government still only got 7 out of 11 seats on committee (in this case, Canadian Heritage), with two going to the Bloc Quebecois (which was at the time the Official Opposition) and two to Reform. As the chair doesn’t vote except in the case of a tie, this would have given the Liberals six votes to four for the combined opposition parties — in other words, a working majority of 60% of the committee. (On the opposition-chaired Public Accounts committee, which had 12 members, the government still held seven seats, but the opposition went up by one, which made up for losing one vote to the chair.)

So, what does all this tell us? Well, first of all, that the convention of having 12-member committees is by no means set in stone, and, in fact, was most recently established during the Martin minority, with a 5/(4/2/1) seat breakdown – which was also used during the first Harper minority, despite the fact that the Conservatives won twelve fewer seats than the Liberals in 2004. If the newly elected Conservatives want to increase the number of committee slots that the government gets, it ought to first look at expanding the size of the committees themselves, rather than award themselves a majority by forcing the opposition to forfeit one of its seats. But adding one government seat to each committee, for a total of thirteen, would give the Conservatives five seats to the oppositions’ seven on committees that it chairs – one more than it has now, to reflect its increased standing in the House. More importantly, would create a 50/50 breakdown on opposition-chaired committees – a six to six tie, which could be broken by the chair if necessary. Given the acrimonious atmosphere around the table during the last session, the government would likely have far more luck arguing for a boost to the overall committee size than pushing for veto power over the opposition.

Oh, and as for the Liberals’ reported “willingness” to fork over an opposition-held seat without a fight? Honestly, you guys. Did you learn nothing from the last leadership race? Just because a half dozen or so of your MPs may be out on the party party circuit hustling for support doesn’t mean that you can just abandon your responsibilities as the Official Opposition. You talked a good game about the dangers of a Conservative majority during the election campaign – now show some spine and make sure that they don’t end up with a de facto majority in the committee room just because you don’t have the gumption to hold your ground. This isn’t just about one of your seats – it’s about the combined power of the opposition parties, and you owe it to the rest of them – and the people who voted for you, for that matter – not to cede it out because you’re distracted by the glimmer of something shiny off the Hill.

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  • http://kitchenersown.blogspot.com/ Lord Kitchener’s Own

    If they did not chair a committee they could not set the agenda for said committee.

    Uhhhm, if they have a majority of votes, can’t they just vote to override the Chair whenever they want? I mean, sure, the Chair can set an agenda, but I’m pretty sure the Chair can be overridden by a majority of the committee, so that’s a pretty meaningless “power” to have.

  • DCT

    the Conservatives are plunging ahead with their plan to seize control

    I’m sorry, where in the article does it say the Conservatives have a plan to seize control as you describe? All I see is an indication the party whips and house leaders will be talking.

    Or, is that your own commentary?

  • http://www.macleans.ca Kady O’Malley

    Actually, the chair doesn’t set the agenda; the members of the committee vote on motions to do so. The chair does determine whether or not a motion is in order, but members can vote not to sustain a ruling, as noted by LKO above. In an opposition-chaired committee, the government would be able to overrule the Chair on any ruling, since they would have one more member than the opposition, and it wouldn’t fall to the chair to break a tie. This would effectively give the government a veto over any motion.

  • http://www.gauntlet.ca Jason Morris

    OK, hold on, just a second.

    There are a few things in the parliamentary rules that get simplified for expression in a way that makes them inaccurate.

    A majority, for example, is not “50%+1.” It is “more than half.” Out of three votes, two votes is “more than half” but it is not “50%+1″. The latter standard would require at least 2.5 votes.

    Another is the idea of a “tie.” People think of it as if it was a hockey game, and a tie vote means that neither side won. Not the case. A hockey game is putting two opposite propositions against one another: did Team A win, or did Team B win? With a tie score, it’s hard to know. A vote in the House of Commons is posing only one alternative, and asking for a yes/no response: did this motion get a majority of votes? The answer is yes if and only if more than half the votes were in favour. It’s like looking at a hockey game and instead of asking “who won?” you ask “did team A win?” If it’s a tie, the answer is “No, they didn’t.”

    Third, the chair does not vote “to break a tie.”
    As we’ve discussed, ties don’t need breaking. The rules is that chairs don’t vote unless their vote makes a difference.

    Their vote will make a difference if it takes a tie vote and gives the question a majority, or if it takes a question with a majority and turns it into a tie vote.

    Put differently, the chair can vote to break a tie or create a tie, if the result of voting is different from the result of not voting.

    So, under the parliamentary procedure with which I’m familiar, and I don’t see any reason the House of Commons should be different, an opposition-chaired committee with half the seats for the government will not give the government a majority. If the vote is 6 in favour to 5 opposed, the chair votes, making the vote 6 to 6, and the motion is defeated.

    So help me out, here, Kady: where does it say that the chair may not vote to create a tie? Because I think this is much ado about nothing.

  • http://www.macleans.ca Kady O’Malley

    Jason, like the Speaker, in committee, a chair only votes to break a tie. In the House, the convention is that the Speaker always votes to preserve the status quo – which is frustratingly vague, when you think about it – but at committee, it doesn’t seem to be quite that rigid.

  • Terry

    I’ve learned more in this comment thread about the functioning of my government than I have in months of reading political news.

  • http://www.macleans.ca Kady O’Malley

    Jason: Here is the relevant section from House of Commons Procedure and Practice (AKA Marleau Montpetit):

    Casting Vote

    Like the Speaker, the Chair of a committee votes only to break a tie, except when a committee is considering a private bill, in which case the Chair votes as a regular member of the committee and, in the event of a tie, has a second, casting vote. [419] The Chair is not bound to give reasons for voting. By convention, the Chair will normally vote in such a way as to maintain the status quo or, when no further discussion on the matter is possible, to keep the matter open for further discussion in the committee or at a subsequent proceeding in the House. [420] Where there is a tie vote on an appeal of a Chair’s ruling, the Chair traditionally does not vote, but declares the ruling sustained. [421]

  • stephen

    Government should chair the committees anyway….that is reflective of the house and the way these thibgs should work, “the government” proposes an agenda. If in a minority situation clearly the chair needs to work with all committee members.

    I know I know, share and share alike, but honestly if the opposition has the most members and the chair isnt that just a majority in reverse?

    Chaor can be outvoted by the majority anyway, so what is the opposition worried about….oh yes the chair sets the agenda..

    Government should chair quite honestly, they may not want it but its their agenda and their responsibility.

  • Andrew

    “Chaor[sic] can be outvoted by the majority anyway, so what is the opposition worried about….oh yes the chair sets the agenda..”

    Chair gets up and walks out on meetings.

  • Paul

    I think this outlines the need for reform in the way committees vote. Cleary the math of committee standings is arbitrary and the true measure of fairness is the representation of “states” of the house of commons; that is all things being equal a motion received in the house would have the same fate as if it where received in committee. To that end I think committees should leave the idea of one member one vote to a system which represents a parties actual standing. For example:
    Committee X
    Standings Members Vote Intensity (V.I.)
    CPC 143 6 143/6 = 23.833
    LPC 77 3 77/3 = 25.667
    BQ 49 2 49/2 = 24.5
    NDP 37 1 37/1 = 37

    Motion Y
    Yeas Votes * V.I. Nays Votes*V.I.
    6 143
    3 77
    2 49
    1 37
    Total 143 163
    * Motion Carries
    So clearly in a system like this the number of people could be more fluid to allow committees which could benefit from the particular experience of certain members to adapt while other stream line by assign a voting intensity to each vote. Of course this might have the affect of marginalizing independents however my understanding to how committees operate is that independents are disadvantaged either way. Perhaps this is the overly pragmatic opinion of an outsider however like a computer when an image is reduced to the point where it no longer represents the original subject it serves no purpose and in certain situations can be misleading or even dangerous. I believe and system which doesn’t represent the standings of parliament is completely undemocratic and its this type of backroom politics that creates the cynicism that people have about politics in this country.

  • Paul

    Sorry my table looked alot better before I submitted it however this basic priciple would be that a vote is equal to the number of members of a party in the house divided by the number of members of that party in the committee.

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  • OttawaGuy

    “Government should chair the committees anyway….”

    Well, maybe. I see what you are saying, but committees are not creatures of the government (executive), but of the chamber. In reality, the government does chair most committees. However, there are some that serve an oversight role (ie. Public Accounts) and have traditionally been chaired by opposition members. Makes more sense from an oversight perspective.

    “Chaor[sic] can be outvoted by the majority anyway, so what is the opposition worried about….oh yes the chair sets the agenda..”

    As Kady pointed out, the Chair doesn’t set the agenda. The Committee does.

  • keith by the Bruce

    “the Conservatives are plunging ahead with their plan to seize control I’m sorry, where in the article does it say the Conservatives have a plan to seize control as you describe? All I see is an indication the party whips and house leaders will be talking.”
    ——-
    Read steves raves on 2,000 appointed liberal partisian party hacks and how accountability act will fix all . Next please read steve’s version of events in “true north strong and free :.While the creation of the Commission was authorized by the Federal Accountability Act
    brought in by the current government, the previous Parliament blocked the appointment
    of several distinguished Canadians from sitting on the Commission. A re-elected
    Conservative Government will ensure that the Public Appointments Commission gets up
    and running.”

    Trouble for harper is maybe he did not de claw the tiger but only baited him ? Facebook advertisement alleges steve’s i.q. @ 131 . Must give Dion a snicker eh ?

  • http://www.gauntlet.ca Jason Morris

    Kady: Thanks for the clarification. That rule is stupid. There’s no reason for it, and it creates exactly the kind of perverse results that we’re debating here. Too bad.

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