Committee business – Maybe thirteen isn’t such an unlucky number after all.

by kadyomalley on Tuesday, November 4, 2008 10:10am - 41 Comments

As first rumoured right here on ITQ, and reported today by the Globe and Mail, the Conservatives are plunging ahead with their plan to seize control of certain House committees by forcing the Liberals to give up one of the four seats currently held by the official opposition – and by the sounds of it, it’s going to be up to the NDP to make sure that the minority government doesn’t end up with de facto majority power:

Party whips and House leaders will decide the distribution of seats over the next three weeks as they prepare for the return of Parliament on Nov. 18. Party representation on committees – where much of the real business of government is done – is supposed to roughly mirror their proportion of seats in the House of Commons.

With a formula of one seat on a 12-member committee for every 25 or 26 seats a party has in the House of Commons, the Tories, with 143 MPs, can make a case that they should have six seats instead of the five they are currently allotted.

If that argument prevails, the Tories would have the same number of seats on each Commons committee as the opposition for the first time since Stephen Harper became Prime Minister in 2006. His minority government would in effect have a majority on the committees where opposition members sit as chair.

[…]

The Liberals are showing a willingness to give up their fourth seat on each of the committees after their caucus shrank to 77 MPs from 95.

“The numbers are negotiated between all parties and reflect as much as possible the makeup of the House,” said Patrick McQuilken, who works in the office of Liberal House Leader Ralph Goodale.

NDP Whip Yvon Godin said his party is “absolutely” planning to fight to increase its single seat to two – and to prevent the Conservatives from increasing their power on the committees.

“One way or the other, the government is a minority government, and they have to stay as a minority in the committees,” Mr. Godin said. “I don’t see how they can have a majority at committees if they are a minority government.”

As far as I know, this is the first time that we’ve seen an actual formula proposed for dividing up committee memberships – which is, apparently, one for seat at the table for “every 25 or 26 seats”  in the House, which doesn’t seem to correspond with what has actually been done in the past – see the breakdowns for past minority parliaments here – with one exception (Joe Clark in 1979), the government had always held one seat less than a majority – which, on a 12-member committee, would be five seats. In 2000, the Liberals won 172 out of 301 seats – 57% of the House – which gave them nine out of sixteen seats at committee, with three going to the Canadian Alliance, two to the Bloc Quebecois and one each for the Progressive Conservatives and the NDP. (After the merger, the newly formed Conservative Party kept all four seats.)

Even during his first term in office, when Jean Chretien controlled 60% of the House – 177 out of 295 seats – and neither the NDP nor the Progressive Conservatives reaching official party status – the government still only got 7 out of 11 seats on committee (in this case, Canadian Heritage), with two going to the Bloc Quebecois (which was at the time the Official Opposition) and two to Reform. As the chair doesn’t vote except in the case of a tie, this would have given the Liberals six votes to four for the combined opposition parties — in other words, a working majority of 60% of the committee. (On the opposition-chaired Public Accounts committee, which had 12 members, the government still held seven seats, but the opposition went up by one, which made up for losing one vote to the chair.)

So, what does all this tell us? Well, first of all, that the convention of having 12-member committees is by no means set in stone, and, in fact, was most recently established during the Martin minority, with a 5/(4/2/1) seat breakdown – which was also used during the first Harper minority, despite the fact that the Conservatives won twelve fewer seats than the Liberals in 2004. If the newly elected Conservatives want to increase the number of committee slots that the government gets, it ought to first look at expanding the size of the committees themselves, rather than award themselves a majority by forcing the opposition to forfeit one of its seats. But adding one government seat to each committee, for a total of thirteen, would give the Conservatives five seats to the oppositions’ seven on committees that it chairs – one more than it has now, to reflect its increased standing in the House. More importantly, would create a 50/50 breakdown on opposition-chaired committees – a six to six tie, which could be broken by the chair if necessary. Given the acrimonious atmosphere around the table during the last session, the government would likely have far more luck arguing for a boost to the overall committee size than pushing for veto power over the opposition.

Oh, and as for the Liberals’ reported “willingness” to fork over an opposition-held seat without a fight? Honestly, you guys. Did you learn nothing from the last leadership race? Just because a half dozen or so of your MPs may be out on the party party circuit hustling for support doesn’t mean that you can just abandon your responsibilities as the Official Opposition. You talked a good game about the dangers of a Conservative majority during the election campaign – now show some spine and make sure that they don’t end up with a de facto majority in the committee room just because you don’t have the gumption to hold your ground. This isn’t just about one of your seats – it’s about the combined power of the opposition parties, and you owe it to the rest of them – and the people who voted for you, for that matter – not to cede it out because you’re distracted by the glimmer of something shiny off the Hill.

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  • madeyoulook

    So, does that mean nobody wants the 308-balled lottery machine I’ve been working on since your Oct 22 post, Kady? Shame…

    And PLEASE don ‘t speak out loud about larger committee memberships. Parliament is damaging enough without bloating any further. All we need is for more MPs to start thinking they have greater power & influence.

  • Peter

    Maybe the CBC could give up their seat….oh never mind.

  • Andrew

    I guess there would be no need for larger committees if the CPC accepts 5 of 12 seats. How about 5 of 11? Make committees smaller and nimbler.

  • Peter

    143/308=46.4% 12×46.4%=5.56 Rounds to 6 Kady. 6 is half of 12, not a majority, so where is the problem?

  • http://kitchenersown.blogspot.com/ Lord Kitchener’s Own

    This really grinds my gears.

    “We should get 50% of the seats because we almost got 50% of the seats in the House”?!?! (and almost 40% of the vote!).

    While they’re at it, perhaps the Tories would like to recommend that the election be re-run so that all candidates who got the most votes in their riding can have a seat and all candidates who ALMOST got the most votes in their riding get a seat too.

    I hate our system enough for giving 46.4% of the seats in the House to a party that got 37.6% of the votes, but giving 50% of the Committee seats to a party that got 37.6% of the votes just seems like needlessly adding insult to injury.

  • http://kitchenersown.blogspot.com/ Lord Kitchener’s Own

    6 is half of 12, not a majority, so where is the problem

    The problem, as I believe Kady has explained, comes when the opposition holds the Chair, because the Chair doesn’t (normally) vote. So while it’s 6 out of 12 seats, in reality it’s 6 out of 11 votes.

  • Scott M.

    Peter, the problem is that the chair doesn’t have the vote (except in a tie). On opposition-chaired committees, that means that they would have 6 out of 11 votes. A majority.

  • Brian

    An extra member? Ugh. Where I work, the bigger the committee, the less gets done.

  • James Munroe

    If one goes through the math of each parties’ share of seats in the house you will get the following committee composition:

    CPC 143/308 = (6)
    LPC 77/308 = (3)
    BQ 49/308 = (2)
    NDP 37/308 = (1)

  • http://www.macleans.ca Kady O’Malley

    James M: The question is whether any party that does not control 50% (plus 1) one of the Commons should control a majority on any committee, opposition-chaired or not. (To placate MYL and other committee minimalists, my original proposal could be amended so only those committees are expanded to thirteen members – with one more for the Conservatives – and the rest remain at 12, and a 5/7(4/2/1) breakdown – although if the Liberals are going to be such jellyfish, it might be worth giving that fourth seat to the other two opposition parties, and letting them work out on which committees each would have an additional vote. (The NDP, for instance, might be interested in having two seats on, say, Finance; the Bloc, meanwhile, could get three on Human Resources.)

  • http://kitchenersown.blogspot.com/ Lord Kitchener’s Own

    Your rounding is correct James, but I don’t think we can just ignore that “rounding up” from 46.4% isn’t quite so simple in politics when the number you round up to is 50%. Especially if on Opposition chaired committees the rounding up takes you from 46.4% to 54.5%.

    The point is not that we should never round up, it’s that we shouldn’t round up in cases where rounding up turns minority power into majority power.

    It’s bad enough that our system for the House is rigged to give governments more power than their share of the national vote would dictate, but at least our excuse there is that the system is set and hard to change. The composition of committees is essentially ad hoc, so simply DECIDING to give a party de facto majority power over a number of committees, despite their not even having a majority in the House (despite our electoral system gifting them with an extra 10% of the seats in the House) seems to just be an unnecessary rubbing of salt in the wound.

    Though, I admit, it’s entirely possible that the Tories just don’t give a hoot about the 62% of Canadians who didn’t vote for them.

  • James Munroe

    “The question is whether any party that does not control 50% (plus 1) one of the Commons should control a majority on any committee, opposition-chaired or not.”

    Why doesn’t the oppostion have members of cabinet if they hold a majority of seats in the commons? Same reason.

  • Andrew

    Committees are an appendage of Parliament, the legislative branch. Cabinet is the executive branch. Your equivalence is incredibly dangerous for the balance of power in Ottawa, as weak as it is.

  • http://www.macleans.ca Kady O’Malley

    I — don’t even know where to start answering that question, but basically, because the House of Commons is not the government, and because the PM has the authority to appoint anyone to his cabinet — from his caucus, from other parties’ caucuses, from the Senate, from a Montreal-area university. Cabinet is not a creature of Parliament. Parliament is not a creature of Cabinet. Just because your party is in government does not mean you control of the House of Commons unless you have enough members to win a vote.

  • http://www.macleans.ca Kady O’Malley

    Okay, Andrew did a much better job of explaining that than I did. Phew.

  • James Munroe

    “Committees are an appendage of Parliament, the legislative branch. Cabinet is the executive branch. Your equivalence is incredibly dangerous for the balance of power in Ottawa, as weak as it is.”

    You seem to be overstating the powers of a legislative committee. Any law drafted/ modified by a majority CPC committee still have to pass a CPC minority house to become law.

  • http://www.macleans.ca Kady O’Malley

    James Munroe – Ah, but these aren’t simply legislative committees – which are normally struck to deal with a particular bill – these are *standing* committees. That means that, while they do study legislation – both government and private members’ bills, should the latter make it through second reading – but they also conduct more wide-ranging studies and investigations, as well as statutorily mandated reviews of existing law. The Public Accounts committee is also responsible for reviewing reports from the Auditor General, and is one on which – as I’m sure you’ll agree – a minority government should never hold veto power, which would be the case if the Conservatives’ demand for a sixth seat were granted.

  • Andrew

    You’re dodging, James. Further, your argument does not support giving the CPC a majority. We could change the size of committees to 11, use a rounding allocation, and still not grant majorities to the CPC. Surely a good compromise all around.

  • Mike T.

    You seem to be overstating the powers of a legislative committee. Any law drafted/ modified by a majority CPC committee still have to pass a CPC minority house to become law.

    ***

    Not relevant. The answer is clear and appears above, twice, by two different posters.

  • dan in van

    The party that tried to drive down voter turnout shouldn’t be rewarded by some mystical ’rounding up’ that has no precedent. The Opposition – liberals especially – need to hold onto that seat. But maybe the idea is to let the CONs drown in their own immoral and unethical sucre.

  • James Munroe

    “You’re dodging, James. Further, your argument does not support giving the CPC a majority. We could change the size of committees to 11, use a rounding allocation, and still not grant majorities to the CPC. Surely a good compromise all around.”

    The only time the CPC would have a majority is if they did not chair a committee. If they did not chair a committee they could not set the agenda for said committee. There would thus be a check on said committee.

  • Jim

    I’m not sure why people think that there is a rule of Standing Order that fixes the size of committees at 12.

    This gets negotiated after every election, under Chretien they were 16.

    13 is the simplest solution.

  • Jenn

    James, why on earth are you continuing to try to ‘steal’ a majority for the Conservatives? Especially after Andrew gave a perfectly acceptable recourse for this rounding nonsense.

    Hopefully you are not someone the Conservatives listen to or want to emulate, because presuming to take a majority when one was most emphatically not entrusted to you is exactly the sort of thing that ensures voters will NEVER entrust a majority to the Conservatives. And doing so by insisting on keeping the same number of committee members, instead of improving the math AND making it cheaper for taxpayers (thereby lessening some of the burden by the increased cabinet size) seems to fly in the face of everything the Conservatives are SUPPOSED to stand for.

  • Catherine M.

    Kady, do you blame the LPC for cowering, just a little? They have been slam-dunked with quite the labels: thieves, Lieberals, feeling entitled, natural governing party, weak, ineffective, ineffectual….
    Maybe the journalists of our nation will do a better job of unbiased reporting. They are too willing to take the feed from the Conservative war room and Chirpy, rather than do any analysis.

  • James Munroe

    Jenn, no matter what committee size is decided upon some parties will be short changed and some will be over represented.

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