Different electoral system, different coalition

by Andrew Coyne on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 3:45pm - 57 Comments

Against the notion, often found in the comments here, that the the last two weeks is just a preview of life under proportional representation, the folks at Fair Vote Canada offer a timely rebuttal. Recalculating the party standings as they would obtain under PR, they suggest a very different coalition would have emerged:

Most likely, the three people sitting at the front of the room at the recent coalition press conference would have been the Liberal leader representing an 81-member Liberal caucus, the NDP leader representing a 57-member NDP caucus and the Green Party leader representing a 23-member caucus. Assuming a proportionate assignment of portfolios, the resulting coalition cabinet might have been 13 Liberals, 8 NDP and 4 Greens.

The regional composition of the coalition would have been dramatically different. The coalition would have boasted about 43 MPs in the west, rather than just 21, and in Quebec 30 MPs rather than 14.

What about Mr. Duceppe? He would have been sitting on the opposition benches with just 28 Bloc MPs, rather than the 49 he has today that give him the power to pull the plug on a federal government.

Of  course, even this is misleading, since elections held under PR would not just spit out the same parties with different seat-counts, but more and different parties, with different electoral bases — less regional, more ideological — and different incentives. For example, Green voters today go to the polls in the certain knowledge that they will elect no one. How many more people would vote Green if they knew their votes would actually count?

In other words, the present instability and division is not a reflection of what would obtain under PR, but is rather a direct consequence of the anomalies of first past the post:

A fair voting system would also have provided a more stable and effective government. The expiry date on the proposed coalition is three years at best and more likely less than two years. Because first-past-the-post voting allows a relatively small shift in support to produce a windfall of seats for one party or another, the current system subverts stable and effective government.

“Today the parties’ spin-meisters are working hard to divide voters into warring camps and pit entire regions against one another,” said Larry Gordon, Executive Director of Fair Vote Canada. “When careers in Ottawa are on the line, country be damned. Will Canadians turn on one another rather than the real culprits? Or are we finally fed up with this madness and the old-guard party leaders who defend an electoral system that serves their own interests but not those of the voters?”

Fair Vote Canada is calling on Liberal, Conservative, NDP and Green voters to stand together – call it a people’s coalition – to demand equal and effective votes for all and legitimate majority rule for Canada.

Pie in the sky? An Angus Reid poll released today suggests not:

Following two weeks of political turmoil in Ottawa, Canadians are taking a second look at their existing electoral regulations, and almost half of them believe the implementation of a proportional representation system would be good for the country, a new Angus Reid Strategies poll has found. 

In the online survey of a representative national sample, 33 per cent of respondents believe the current first-past-the-post system, where candidates win seats by getting more votes than any other rival in a specific constituency, is the best one for Canada. However, 47 per cent of Canadians would be open to trying different guidelines.

Almost three-in-ten (28%) would switch to a proportional representation system, where parties win seats in accordance with their share of the national vote, and one-in-five (19%) prefer a mixed- member proportional voting system, which would allocate some seats on a constituency basis, and others by proportional representation. 

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  • Andrew (not Potter or Coyne)

    the rat: think about your question and realise that both alternatives are the same.

  • Chris B

    And the Rat, there are as many different types of PR as there are PR systems. Google a blog called Fruits and Votes for good discussion on PR.

  • Jim R

    Too bad the poll didn’t mention STV (Single Transferable Vote) as an option. I, for one, will (again) be giving it my approval in the referendum that we in BC get to vote in. I would prefer single member district STV, but I’d accept “BCSTV” as far better than either the current FPTP or PR systems.

  • Steve Wart

    What I love about the PR discussion is the idea of a national referendum on a new constitution.

    Honestly I don’t know how we got all 10 provinces to agree to that in the first place!

    We should have stuck to the British model. No constitution since 1066 and Gordon Brown is still saving the world.

  • George Pringle

    Andrew -

    Do the numbers reflect the system proposed by the Law Commission back in 2003 or 04? That study brought up a serious legal point that under the Canadian Constitution that any PR system has to applied province by province.

    This would reduce the radical swing of the pure PR model presented.

  • Andrew (not Potter or Coyne)

    George, PR applied by province would not make any real difference in outcomes, unless the provinces were given inequitable weighting in the Commons.

  • The Rat

    “the rat: think about your question and realise that both alternatives are the same.”

    No, I don’t think they are. They are close, but the difference is there. If you restrict the boundaries the total number of seats remains the same but who wins them is different. The likelihood of regional parties forming is greater. Yes, the number of votes to get a seat remains the same but the remainder of any party’s vote won’t carry over to other regions. If we see a lot of very small parties, like Italy, that rounding problem will mean a greater chance of a Quebec-only party gaining a seat or two as as opposed to the National vote gaining that round up and a seat. I bet that will matter to Quebec.

  • Andrew (not Potter or Coyne)

    I don’t think that makes a very good case for PR. I imagine the cut-off for gaining seats in a nation PR scheme would be either 2% or 5% of votes cast nationally, and much higher if done on a provincial basis. Thus, I don’t see any real difference in whether the PR is done as a national aggregate or provincially.

  • http://www.FairVote.Ca Wayne Smith

    If 47% favour proportional systems and 33% like the current system, then proportional supporters are 58.75% of decided voters. Not yet quite up to the bogus 60% threshold imposed in BC and Ontario, but a solid mandate for change. More support than any Canadian government has ever had.

  • bk

    On the constitutional question …

    The constitution has rules that require allocation of seats province-by-province. Most notably, there is the Senate floor, which keeps PEI at 4 seats, Newfoundland at least at six, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick at least at 10.

    There are also statutory rules, but not constitutional ones, that forbid reducing the number of Commons seats a province receives after a redistribution.

    So, without necessarily advocating it, any PR system that didn’t seek constitutional change would have to be done province-by-province, and would be unlikely to mess with the statutory rule forbidding reductions in allocation. But that isn’t a big deal. The Swiss lower house elects via PR canton-by-canton, save for those cantons that are so small they only get one or two seats. The Australian Senate is state-by-state STV. Really, it isn’t much of a barrier.

  • Mark

    Andrew – a question for you and for the folks at Fair Vote Canada:

    In an imaginary and truly hypothetical world in which I wake up and need to call my Member of Parliament because; (a) my EI was mistakenly cut off, (b) Revenue Canada screwed up my mailing address, (c) a family member’s passport has not been processed on time, (d) a visitor’s visa was denied on erroneous grounds, (e) I need help filling out an application for a trade exemption for my small business, (f) I need federal disater assistance because my home was just swept up in a tidal wave, (g) I need a status update on my farm assistance program before the bank forecloses on my equipment, (h) I simply want to voice my opinion that something in Parliament would have an adverse affect on my local community WHO WOULD I CALL?

    Of course, such problems or concerns listed above are purely hypothetical and would never, ever happen in the real world. They’re tangentia, really. What’s truly important is that the people sitting in the House of Commons reflect the ideological doctrine that I am fixated on 23 hours a day.

  • Mark

    tangential. damn typo.

  • Gar y Dale

    to whyshouldIsellyourwheat : our current system rewards regional parties. For example, Harper got no seats in Canada’s largest cities despite getting 3 out every 10 votes. Because of this he has never shown any interest in our cities. You don’t need a big tent, just enough regional strength to get support.

    Coalitions can happen under FPTP and become more likely as the number of parties increases. The difference in this between proportional representation and FPTP is how many votes you need to form a majority coalition government (one that controls the majority of seats). Under FPTP, a minority of voters can elect a a government with the majority of seats while PR requires a majority of voters to do so.

    For example, the Conservative Party and Bloc could have formed a coalition in 2004 with the support of a the one independent candidate.

    There’s no point decrying coalitions because the experience in the majority of the world’s nations is that coalitions work. The voters make their choices then their representatives get together to plan an agenda. And unlike our phony majorities, the coalition has to stick to what the parties promised during the election or they will be replaced by a different coalition.

    Imagine that – parliament actually doing what the majority of Canadians want!

  • Gar y Dale

    to Mark: This isn’t Ghost Busters. Who are you going to call is up to you. Under PR, parties present candidates from every region they want to get votes in (i.e. every region). You can approach any represent in your region who you trust to handle your problem.

    I wish people would actually take some time to see how the systems work in other countries before they try to make some silly point. Do you think that Canada is the only country where people need help from the government to resolve some issue? Most of the world’s democracies use PR and they don’t find the lack of specific local representatives to be the deal-breaking problem you seem to think it is. In fact, they would react in horror to Canada’s notion that you have to go to a specific person who may not be ideologically disposed to side with you.

    Imagine, for example, that you need help with EI and your local representative is a person who considers EI to be subsidizing the lazy. Would you really want to go to him for help? Or what if it’s someone who thinks everyone is out to enter Canada illegally? Would you want his help to resolve a visitor’s visa problem?

    Canada’s riding system is the problem, not the solution.

  • http://wilfday.blogspot.com/ Wilf Day

    As many have noted here, Liberals in Alberta and Conservatives in Montreal would no longer waste their votes. On average PR models generate about an 8% higher turnout, which makes sense.

    However, even on the miserable number of votes cast this October, the Liberal caucus would no longer be just the GTA plus the Montreal area and the Atlantic Provinces. Currently only 15 of the 77 Liberal MPs are outside those regions. Under any decent PR model, Liberal voters would have elected about 25 more MPs from regions where they are now unrepresented or under-represented, starting with nine more from the West. Conservative voters would have elected about 15 more MPs from regions where they were unrepresented or under-represented, starting with about eight from Quebec.

    Clearly this would be good for Canada. More details here:
    http://wilfday.blogspot.com/

  • Attila

    Man, people are delusional. The current turmoil is the result of being in a minority parliament (and one only a dozen seats short of a majority!). So these brainiacs want to ‘fix’ this by implementing a system where we will NEVER SEE ANOTHER MAJORITY GOV’T? When was the last time a party got >50% of the vote?
    And that is just the practical problem with PR. No matter how you slice it, PR systems will “elect” members who are accountable to no one but the party (ie not accountable to the voters of any particular riding). At least with FPP, we can throw out a poorly performing MP.

  • Attila

    People, the problem isn’t whether you can talk to someone form your own riding, it’s that MPs elected in a PR system are UNACCOUNTABLE. For instance, If I was leader of a big paty and I wanted to give my brother (or a large donor perhaps?) a seat, I’d just put him first on the list of PR candidates. Therefore he is GUARANTEED to win a seat unless NOONE votes for my party. Further to that he could NEVER be removed as long has he is kept near the top of the PR list (if there’s even a list and it doesn’t simply go by appointment after the fact). If you think cronyism and unaccountability is bad under FPP, wait until some form of PR is enacted.

  • Alfredo Louro

    PR skeptics are missing the point: Whichever way the citizens vote, is the right distribution of seats in Parliament. The citizens are always right. Anything else is a distortion; some (many) votes are more powerful than others; democracy vanishes.

    All the fearful objections pale beside this simple fact. If I have a problem with the taxman, who am I going to call? Well, that’s why the Swedes invented the role of ombudsman (literally, messenger). Works fine. Let me ask you this; hypothetically, in a minority government situation, where the opposition representation is severely distorted, if the Prime Minister of a minority government wants to shut down Parliament, who am I going to call?

  • http://www.orphanvoters.ca A. Blair

    As the frequent minority governments and coalition drama of recent times illustrates, Canada is becoming increasingly unstable under FPTP. The current system just wasn’t designed to handle a modern, pluralistic society with a range of viewpoints: instead of a 2-party polity, we have transformed into a 5-party reality (like most other western democracies, actually). It’s just that our electoral system hasn’t caught up yet. It’s now causing problems which will only get more serious in the future.

    The Canadian voting system has never been updated in the 140+ years since we adopted it wholesale from Britian without debate, unlike every other public instution. It’s time to think of reform. Consider that under our current system:

    1. National unity is increasingly threatened. Regional differences are exaggeraged (eg. the Bloc gains almost twice as many seats as their votes merit in Quebec, the increasing regionalisation of the major national parties – Conservatives in the West, Liberals in Atlantic Canada & major urban areas, etc etc) and politicians increasingly pit one region against another in otherwise reasonable debates. If we contiune under FPTP, we may not have a country for much more than a generation or two.

    2. Strategic voting is necessary. Many voters are forced to vot for a lesser of two evils, because the candidate they support has no hope of winning in their riding. It doesn’t have to be this way.

    3. Most voters are disenfranchised. In the 2008 election, 51% of voters (over 7 million) did not end up electing a candidate. Voters aren’t stupid – they know when their votes don’t count. And because of this and other reasons under FPTP, they are simply stopping to vote. Last election saw the lowest voter turnout since confederation (only 59%). This is getting serious.

    4. Governments don’t need to be accountable. Why would they be? If a party can just appeal to their base and then maybe a little bit more to get 40% of the vote, then can get 60% of the seats and 100% of the power. They can rule with impunity for 4 years.

    5. FPTP shares the blame for the nasty tone and low level of debate in Canadian politics. It greatly overvalues marginal gains and losses in support, and thus holds out to the large parties the hope of winning a majority of seats (“we just need a FEW more % to rule like kings!!”). This works against the forming of stable coalition or minority governments, and makes parties more demagogic than they would otherwise be. So today politicians exaggerate their differences, sling mud in the hopes that some sticks to their oppoents more than they really need to, and use divisive politics which undermine the possibility of cooperation. Teachers can’t even bring classes of schoolchildren into Question Period anymore. This is a national disgrace caused in no small part by FPTP.

    4. There is a littany of other problems with our current electoral system, not least of which is low numbers of women and minorities getting elected, phony majoritites, even “wrong winner” results like the current government in New Brunswick today (which got fewer votes than their principal opposition – yet formed a majority government despite this – huh?).

    REFORM THE SYSTEM BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.

  • Mark

    I would rather have someone represent my community than my region. We could make that more democratic by having either a run-off or preferential ballot in all 308 ridings, so that each MP would need to garner 50% plus one of the vote. Is it really that much to ask that a party which seeks to sit in our national parliament find one commuity in the country in which the majority of voters find them the least offensive option?

    And before you throw a bunch of Euro-Parl stats my way, ask yuorself how many of these systems govern countries which are (i) as federal in nature, (ii) as large geographically, or (iii) as culturally diverse as Canada.

    Unitary national states with homogenous populations make for great PR governments. But that doesn’t represent the reality of my country, nor the needs of my community.

    I don’t like the status quo, but PR is a one way road to dysfunctional parliament, and an exacerbation of the sense of isolation and abandonment already felt in so many of our forgotten rural communities.

    In its EI decision the Supreme Court today had some choice words about the concept of “taxation without representation”. They are worth considering in this debate as well.

  • Mark

    “Many voters are forced to vot (sic) for a lesser of two evils, because the candidate they support has no hope of winning in their riding. It doesn’t have to be this way.”

    No it doesn’t. The candidate they support could present a platform palatable to enough voters in his or her riding, giving him or her a hope of winning it.

    Really. What is it about losing that’s so incomprehensible to some you?

    Using your logic the government should have implemented roughly 40% of the Charlottetown Accord, and 49% of Quebec’s landmass should be sovereign as of 1995.

  • mark

    I think it`s high time proportional representation was implemented in Ontario. McGuinty fails to appreciate the hardships of beleagured drivers and beleagured post-secondary part-time students and men`s rights and a legal aid system that rips of men…

  • mark

    At the risk of inconveniencing McGuinty’s Entitled Elite, It’s About Time Ontario implemented a mixed proportionality system…Ontarians got a raw deal with McGuinty’s bloated hierarchy..

  • mark

    i agree with MMP for Ontario

  • http://fairvoteubc.wordpress.com Mark Crowley

    Fantastic post Andrew, its great to hear influential, intelligent people like you speaking out for reform. I think the polls numbers you cite are very encouraging especially considering most people do not think about these issues much and don’t really know what electoral reform would mean. The referendum in Ontario was based on a process that was pushed through rather quickly and had several problems. The BC referendum a few years back failed to reach the high bar of 60% by only two points, and that was without a lot of public education.

    If BC goes ahead in may and approves BC-STV then the rest of the country will be able to take a look at how it changes the landscape and we can all have a national discussion about wether electoral reform is good for Canada and what form it will take. I find once people starting delving into the issue and hearing how terribly unfair our current system is (its really worse than you think) then they usually come around to the idea of some kind of reform. STV is a great solution, but like any solution it will take some adapting of our ideas of what it means to vote and have our voice heard. Which is the whole point after all, we need to change what we expect from our electoral system and what we expect from the politicians representing us.

    Mark Crowley
    FairVoteUBC
    http://fairvoteubc.wordpress.com

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