Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The UnCanadian Activities Committee (II)

by Aaron Wherry on Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:30pm - 70 Comments

It is perhaps counter-productive to go round parsing the rhetoric of Pierre Poilievre, but counter-productive seems to be a bit of theme here. And there is probably greater harm in not taking seriously the things our elected leaders say. They get away with far too much as it is.

So. Whatever the merits of the coalition, its members and leadership—and these are infinitely debatable—let us deal specifically with Mr. Poilievre’s primary concerns.

“Undemocratic.” Canadians vote for members of parliaments. We do not vote for the Prime Minister. We do not, in the directest sense, vote for a government. We vote for MPs, who are thus dispatched to Ottawa to organize themselves as they see fit and run the country. They often leave or are removed from the parties they ran for. They are, in theory, free to vote as they see fit, unencumbered by party affiliation.

What, then, is undemocratic about a majority of those MPs agreeing to cooperate for the purposes of forming government? Was the Romanow coalition in Saskatchewan undemocratic? Was the Peterson-Rae accord in Ontario undemocratic? What about coalition governments that exist or have existed in Germany, Italy, Israel, Switzerland and New Zealand? What, by the strictest reading of our electoral and parliamentary laws, outlaws a coalition government?

“UnCanadian.” One assumes this is a reference to the Bloc Quebecois. To be clear, the Liberals and NDP have an agreement to form a coalition government. The Bloc has agreed, based on the policy agenda put forward by the Liberals and NDP, to support the coalition government in all matters of confidence for a period of 18 months.

What, then, has the Bloc agreed to do that it has not already done over the last four years in working with Liberal and Conservative minority governments? What influence will it have that it has not already had in its two previous decades on Parliament Hill? Is there any specific policy in the agenda so far proposed by the coalition government that weakens the national foundation? And if the mere presence of the Bloc Quebecois in the vague proximity of power is too dangerous to be considered, should there be legislation that specifically sets out which parties are allowed to wield which amounts of influence? Or would that be rather, er, undemocratic?

If the matter before us is serious, let us be serious. If the Prime Minister truly believes this to be a plot meant to “destroy this country,” let us understand exactly how that is.

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  • http://maxwell-devin.blogspot.ca Devin Maxwell

    JohnG:

    I am not sure I agree with your proposition that democracy has many definitions. It doesn’t. Nor do your comments have anything to do with democracy. They have to do with public opinion and populism more than anything else…

    But for the sake of argument, lets your definition of democracy is the right one (or even one that makes sense). If so, then less than half of Canadians voted for a Conservative government. What is democratic, by your definition, about a party with a minority of the popular vote and seats in the House of Commons that governs as if it had a majority of the popular vote and seats in the House of Commons?

  • http://maxwell-devin.blogspot.ca Devin Maxwell

    Patrick:

    Please explain…

  • Mike T.

    It is a sad and unfortunate thing that these points are even being argued, as opposed to being the accepted baseline from which discussion should begin.

  • http://maxwell-devin.blogspot.ca Devin Maxwell

    T Thwim:

    I kind of agree with that. Its why I said that it was arguably undemocratic…

  • Aaron Wherry

    If you want to speculate on motive, it’s probably best to at least consider all rational possibilities. So. Why would Gilles Duceppe choose to support the NDP and Liberals?

    1. Because revoking the political subsidy threatened the Bloc as much as any party.
    2. Because, in terms of policy, the Bloc has more in common with the NDP and Liberals.
    3. Because the Bloc’s primary rival in Quebec is now the Conservative party.

    Or, you know, maybe he duped Stephane Dion into agreeing to annihilate the country.

  • john g

    What is democratic, by your definition, about a party with a minority of the popular vote and seats in the House of Commons that governs as if it had a majority of the popular vote and seats in the House of Commons?

    Devin lets pretend they had a majority. Would they have pulled the party financing changes (which polls appeared to suggest had broad public support) and the right to strike restrictions off the table? Or given what you think you know about Harper, would they have rammed it through with their majority?

  • PolJunkie

    This is what happens when one lives next to the United States. If Canada was in Europe, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. It is rather clear to me that many people here are confusing parliamentary system with that of the Americans.

    This is what you get for allowing the West Wing to be broadcasted in Canada.

  • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com/ dougrogers

    Democratic = Populist ?

  • D

    A point about this whole “unCanadian” nonsense that Poilievre is peddling. It was very common in Australia in the recent years when John Howard was PM to throw the term “unAustralian” around. Most Aussies didn’t know or couldn’t explain what this exactly meant. Harper was an admirer of the old Howard regime (which has now been thankfully replaced). Coincidence? Maybe.

    But, as I commented in part I of this thread, I would love it if some intrepid reporter out there went to the bother of asking Poilievre what he exactly means by “unCanadian”. You may not get any kind of reasonable answer but hey, it’s worth a try…

  • http://maxwell-devin.blogspot.ca Devin Maxwell

    JohnG:

    Yes and yes.

  • ChrisSig

    I am amazed by the coalition supporters here. Their commitment to the legality and constitutionality of their ideas is to be commended.

    Their certainty in thought reminds me of evangelical Christians’ literal belief in the Bible.

    Rejoice! The Coalitionists and the Christians are as one. Peace in our time!

    Update. PM Harper to appoint 18 Senators. The FAITH of the Coalitionists is about to be tested. Are they going to be happy? I mean, come on, 18 new Conservative Senators. Didn’t Steve say he wanted elected Senators. Just because he’s PM and he has the constitutional and legal authority to appoint them doesn’t mean…oh, yeah.

    I’m glad that these blogs are going to be silent in the coming days.

  • http://www.davetill.com davetill

    The Prime Minister does have the constitutional and legal authority to appoint Senators, so I’m not squawking about this. As a non-Conservative, I don’t like it much, but he has the right to do it.

    However, I find it troubling that he is focusing on this instead of on, well, the economy and stuff.

  • http://maxwell-devin.blogspot.ca Devin Maxwell

    DougRogers:

    No populism is not the same as democracy.

  • http://maxwell-devin.blogspot.ca Devin Maxwell

    ChristSig:

    Personally, I have no problem with the PM appointing 18 Senators. As you say, its his constitutional right to do so. But, at the same time, I don’t ever want to hear him criticize the ‘unelected, unaccountable Senate’ or to even talk about reform for that matter.

    The difference here is that Liberals never promised not to form a coalition. Harper did promise not to appoint Senators and to reform the Senate. I am glad you are okay with it…

  • Jean Proulx

    ChrisSig – Yeah I’m with Devin Maxwell here (hey Devin). I could care less that Harper has appointed Senators. It’s just funny because it’s such rank hypocrisy on his part.

  • http://dougsamu.wordpress.com/ dougrogers

    Hey, I know that. The point is, what do the Conservative mean?

  • Bill D

    If the statements in this discussion to the effect that we don’t vote for prime ministers, parties or governments mean anything, then why would one be concerned about the doings of any MP apart from the person elected in one’s riding, including the PM?

    Pierre Poilievre, the youngest MP, is quite popular in his Ottawa riding of Nepean-Carleton. In the election last fall the riding had a turnout of 70 percent, much better than the national average. In fact, he won the second highest number of votes in the country bettering all the party leaders including his own.
    Pierre garnered almost 40,000 votes, (56%) and thrashed his closest opponent, the Liberal, by a margin of 23,100 votes. From his first victory in 2004 in which he bested the Defence minister by 3,800 votes, he just gets better; 39,500 votes (55%) in 2006 and the improvement this year.

    Whatever others might think of Poilievre’s comments, it matters only to the electors of Nepean-Carleton. Most of those are pleased with his work and support his point of view.

  • http://maxwell-devin.blogspot.com Devin Maxwell

    BillD:

    I am concerned about the things that all of the MPs in Ottawa, individually or as a group, are doing — especially those who, by virtue of their majority and confidence of the House of Commons, form the government. Just because we don’t vote for the PM doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be ‘worried about the doings’ of other MPs.

    And good for you if you are pleased with the work of Pierre Poilievere. Its your prerogative to support the antics of one of Ottawa’s most partisan and infantile members of Parliament. Myself, I prefer politicians who show an interest in working for Canadians…

  • http://maxwell-devin.blogspot.com Devin Maxwell

    DougR:

    I am not sure that conservatives know the difference between democracy and populism. Certainly the conservative masses don’t…and the Conservative Party of Canada likes it that way.

  • Bill D

    Devin Maxwell:

    Actually I was taking a sarcastic poke at the notion that voters don’t vote for parties, policy slates, PMs-to-be and incumbent governments; that we only vote for a candidate to be our local MP. The notion is nonsense, of course.

    Through electing a local candidate we are usually voting for a number of other outcomes as well. That being the case, it matters very much who else gets elected besides your own hero or beastie, and, like you, I do care a lot about who else gets elected along with my goat. Hey! It matters to me who all parties elect.

    As for Pierre, I certainly don’t agree with everything he says and does, but hat’s been the case for every MP that has represented me wherever I’ve been, and I’m a palindrome.

    In Pierre’s place I’d have a very different style and M.O., and my margins might be a lot narrower for that. While I won’t compromise on matters of principle, everything else is on the table even if, at the end, no compromise is reached.
    And no, … the MPs of parties other than the one I’m supporting are not enemies. They are honourable opponents entitled to be treated as ladies and gentlemen even when one disagrees with their proposals for our governance.

    But that’s all hypothetical. I’m not in Pierre’s place and remind myself occasionally of his electoral achievements. Second-highest vote count in the country? Sixth-highest in 2006? There’s a lesson in there somewhere, but please, no cheap shots at the voters in Nepean-Carleton.

    Merry Christmas to all of you,

    Bill D

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