Dear Liberal Party: That's not actually an answer.

by kadyomalley on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:45am - 241 Comments

… At least, not to the (relatively straightforward) question that was asked

 

A spokeswoman for Mr. Ignatieff refused to say whether the new Liberal Leader will allow any of his members to continue to advocate openly for reduced access to publicly funded abortions.

“I don’t think we are in a position to answer those questions today. I think they are speculative at this point,” said Jill Fairbrother, adding that it is impossible to know if the committee mentioned by Mr. Bruinooge even exists and, if so, whether there are members from parties other than the Conservatives.

“This is a matter that was settled by the Supreme Court more than 20 years ago and that’s our view on it today,” Ms. Fairbrother said.

First of all, of course the “committee” exists – although to be fair to Ms. Fairbrother, it’s not an official House committee, per se, but an informal, ad hoc group of parliamentarians who have been meeting periodically in relative obscurity for years.  

The membership has always been secret, although there are MPs who are almost certainly on the list, including those who have spoken at rallies like the annual March for Life, as well as the various chairs and vice-chairs who have allowed their names to be attached to the very occasional press release that surfaces under the PPLC letterhead (yes, it has – or had – its own letterhead under Bruinooge’s predecessor, Maurice Vellacott).

One of those vice-chairs, as it happens, was the (now retired) backbench Liberal MP Paul Steckle, who held the position for at least four years without facing repercussions from the party, despite his longtime – and very public association –  with the group, and former Liberal MP and PPLC supporter, Tom Wappell, who – on the occasion of his retirement from politics - delivered a somewhat embittered parting rebuke not to his former party, but the Canadian Catholic leadership for, in his view, all but ignoring the existence of the pro-life contingent on the Hill. After his self-described twenty years of sustained and unapologetic opposition to abortion, euthanasia and same-sex marriage,  if anyone was begging for a slapdown from a PPLC-averse party, it would have been Tom Wappell – yet he sat as a member of the Liberal caucus for his entire career.

To put it bluntly, Ms. Fairbrother may not be able to confirm the existence of this caucus, but if she’d bothered to ask around, anyone who has spent any time on the Hill  would have been able to fill her in – the question that remains, however, is whether there will be any change in how the party handles it. 

Compare the Liberal response to what the NDP’s Karl Belanger told ITQ when we sent along a similar inquiry about what fate might befall any of their members who were found to be members of the PPLC: 

I can’t really speculate on what would happen, but I can tell you that we had MPs in the past who supported legislation that could be qualified as “pro-life”, and they weren’t “booted out”.

That said, it is easy for Mr. Bruinooge to claim he has a secret club.  I could also claim, for instance, that there is a secret club of Conservative MPs ready to support the coalition government. 

 

Of course, it’s easy – or easier, at least – for Belanger to answer the question; following Bev Desjarlais’ departure from caucus in 2005 and the retirement of Bill Blaikie earlier this year, there just aren’t any NDP MPs left in the PPLC, which renders the issue of repercussions somewhat moot. Even so, Irene Mathyssen was unequivocal in her response; she told the Globe that “no NDP MP would be expelled from caucus for holding anti-abortion views. ‘We have a policy where we talk things through.’” 

Over on the Liberal side of the House, out of 27 MPs who voted for Ken Epp’s infamous private members bill to protect the “unborn victims of crime” last spring, just fifteen remain in caucus following the election. Several of those members made it clear at the time that they were unlikely to support the bill at final reading. But there are still a few whose names are almost certain to appear on the PPLC membership list, and who would be among the parliamentarians that Bruinooge is apparently hoping will be at the forefront of the debate over abortion that he is seemingly so keen on reopening. 

Given that fact, pointing out that the matter was “settled” by the Supreme Court might be an acceptable answer to questions on the official Liberal position on the issue, but it does absolutely nothing to address Bruinooge’s claim that he has supporters from all parties, but whose identities must be kept secret for their own political protection. But the most inexplicable thing about the Liberals’ non-responsive response is how unnecessary it was.

If the longstanding hands off policy towards the PPLC still applies, Fairbrother could have said that as far as her party is concerned, it is an issue of conscience, and, as such, MPs are free to associate with any and all likeminded colleagues. If the new leader wants to initiate a new policy, and MPs will, in fact, be censured for taking part in overtly anti-abortion campaigning, or if it is something that will have to be discussed by caucus,  she could have said that instead. By playing vague instead of giving a clear response, the Liberals have guaranteed that the next phase of this story will no longer focus on the PM’s less than enthusiastic reaction to this latest outbreak of freelancing by a backbench MP, but the apparent incoherence on the other side of the aisle. 

 

 

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  • Ryan

    If I choose to kill someone, does that then make me pro-choice? If you’re pregnant and don’t want to be, obviously you lack responsibility (unless of course it was by rape). I feel like it’s a feminist agenda, some sort of frustration that we males don’t have to carry the child and thus don’t feel as responsible.

    Look, I would guess that most of us males are good guys and will take care of the kid. But we’re not all that way, and if you’re going to have sex you have to understand there’s a chance you’ll get pregnant. Killing the child because it will inconvenience your life is sick in my opinion.

    The child shouldn’t be punished with it’s life because of decisions that you made.

    • Jenn

      Ryan, you’re right. We were irresponsible. And now here I am having your baby. I don’t want to. Tell you what, if you are so upset with the thought of me terminating this pregnancy, you take over for me.

      Of course, I share the irresponsible behaviour that got us into this mess, but you’ll just have to trust that I’ll suddenly gain the responsibility to help you care for it. Yes, sure, being heavy with child might cause you to have difficulty finding a new job now that you’ve been laid off due to the economic crisis, and since you’re not married I guess your parents will kick you out, but hey, don’t be scared. The government will be there for you, now that its forced you to have this child, with a livable welfare rate, supportive housing, and universal child care . . . oh wait. Okay, scratch that last stuff. Just do your best to keep the kid from joining a gang, or drug addiction. Tough I know since the only place you’ll EVER find to live will be full of gang-bangers and drug fiends, but you owe it to society to accomplish the practically impossible.

      Anyway, see ya. I’ve got a new boyfriend now.

      • Sophie

        I remember a letter that was published in The Morningside Papers that made the very same point. I’ll see if I can dig it up. In the meantime, isn’t it sad that the same points and counterpoints are being made as they were in the 80s? The fact that this is an issue simply means that wedon’t yet have the neccessary tools for single mothers that you listed above,

        • PolJunkie

          “wedon’t yet have the neccessary tools for single mothers that you listed above,”

          Indeed we don’t because the people who vociferantly oppose a woman’s right to choose are also the same people vociferantly opposing those same necessary tools.

          • Wascally Wabbit

            Ryan – you clearly are one of the candidates for campaigning for fairness for poor men who are lured into unwanted pregnancies FFPMWALIUP for short!
            And that silly Family Responsibility Office – empowered by the Family Responsibility and Support Arrears Enforcement Act – is total over kill is it?
            Sheesh!!

  • kody

    1%?

    First off, that number is highly suspect, but lets assume its accurate.

    Out of a thousand abortions a year, ten are near birth or late term.

    What percentage of violent crimes are homocides? Much less than one percent. I guess we shouldn’t really worry ourselved about having that law either.

    The more extreme is always less in number. That doesn’t mean as a society we accept it.

    What I find remarkable is how folks will callously throw out that percentage as if its just some meaninless statistic, again keeping onself safely away from contemplating the reality of what’s behind those numbers.

    • Sean Stokholm

      kody,

      In a perfect world, all pregancies would be planned, or least all women would have the mental health, resources, and support to become mothers.

      In a perfect world, there wouldn’t be a long history of societies trying to control women’s autonomy and life chances on the basis of reproductive biology.

      In a perfect world, we could legislate away everything we don’t like, and all be happier as a result.

      Maybe there’s more than one head in the sand?

      • http://prairiewrangler.wordpress.com/ Olaf

        I like this world of which you speak, Sean. Would houses be made of shortbread? Because that would be ideal.

        • Just visiting

          And all commenters would have red highlighted names, and little personal icons.

          So Olaf, how exactly do you get a red highlighted moniker and a personal icon graphic thingie on this board?

          - JV

          • Mike T.

            I think it has something to do with linking to a website in the box provided.

          • http://prairiewrangler.wordpress.com/ Olaf

            JV – I was issued a red highlighted name and a personal icon thingy along with my membership in a secret parliamentary committee dedicated to preventing the emergence of the electric car. One of the many perqs.

    • Mike T.

      What I find amazing is that people will scream about OMG ONE MINUTE/SECOND/HOUR BEFORE BIRTH BABIES CAN DIE OMGZZZBBQ but then suddenly 20 weeks becomes late term….

  • DianeG

    Not all questions should be answered immediately and the response was not given by Ignatieff.

    I was unaware of the unofficial committee and cannot see why it needs to be ‘secret’. The tradition on matters of conscience has been a free vote. I wonder if that will change and hope it does not.

    The Supreme Court has already ruled on the matter. Personally, I’d like to see equal access to abortion enforced (re provinces), because it is inequitable at the moment.

    A law that would give a fetus rights (as a person under the law) would most likely lead to other and worse laws.

    If the coments here turn into a pro-choice anti-choice debate, there will be no end to this thread.

  • John.K

    Interesting, isn’t it, how few women are participating in this thread? Like the rest of us have any right at all to an opinion….

    • Shane O.

      If you want to check your brain at the door because you have the wrong chromosomes, by all means do that. The rest of us like to self-imagine ourselves as contributors to a public discussion of national importance.

      • John.K

        Imagine being the operative word.

        • Shane O.

          Hey, I’m not claiming to be God or anything, but I don’t appreciate the implication that I should have nothing to say because I don’t fit someone else’s criteria.

          … and don’t we all imagine that we’re more important than we are?? ;-)

    • Halbs

      When the baby murder invoice comes out of the public coffers- WE ALL HAVE AN OPINION AND RIGHT to say what we want about it.

  • PolJunkie

    I consider myself to be a reasonable person but I have to admit to being afflicted with unreasonable urges whenever I see/hear men demanding that women be forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

    What is even more annoying is thatit would appear as though most of these men also oppose a national childcare program. They claim to care for the “babies” but it would appear that this particular concern ends at the end of the birth canal.

    • Shane O.

      I suspect that reasonable people can disagree about whether a national child-care program is the best way that mothers/families can be supported when confronted with difficult pregnancies. Big government isn’t always (or even necessarily, ever) the answer.

      • PolJunkie

        Shane O., perhaps the reasonable thing to do here is to inquire about what single moms everywhere think about government assistance in providing them with the childcare they desperately need in order to get/keep a job.

        Are you one of those single moms?!?

  • kody

    Here’s why folks are deathly afraid of confronting the lack of legitimacy of late term abortions:

    it puts a lie to the arbitrary point of “out of motherness” being the point when a child is a seperate human being.

    At nine months, no one can argue that its not a seperate child, connected to the mother by a cord yes, but a seperate person. When one starts working backwards from that point it becomes very difficult indeed to make that case that a child in a womb isn’t always a seperate being, connected to the mother by a chord, but a seperate life nonetheless.

    In order to avoid those pesky realities, lets just pretend that late terms don’t really exist (or more accurately assume they exist in such small numbers that we can turn our mind away from tossing overboard the most fragile among us.)

    • PolJunkie

      “In order to avoid those pesky realities, lets just pretend that late terms don’t really exist”

      Only an incredibly naive person would believe that a ban on late term abortions would be sufficient for pro-lifers. Anyone with an ounce of sense understands that late term abortions are nothing more than a tactic to get at the real prize which is a complete ban.

    • Jenn

      Kody, you are not a separate human being if what I put in my mouth (or inject in my arm for that matter) affects you as much as it does me. You are not a separate human being while I have to pee for you. It’s really clear to me at what point a fetus becomes a ‘separate human being’.

    • http://www.truemuse.wordpress.com truemuse

      I can cut off my nose (if I want) or cut off my baby (if I want). If I cut off my nose I think all would agree I have seperated one part of myself from another. If I cut off my baby I remain intact. Therefore my baby is a seperate being.

  • Shane O.

    Just to get back to the original topic at hand. Would it be fair to give Ignatieff some latitude on this, since he’s an interim leader? It would be unfair to ask him to espouse new party policy when he has no mandate to do so. Until someone in the LPC is elected who can properly claim a mandate within that party, I don’t think anything other than the previous status quo should stand.

    • John.K

      Then what’s the point of having an interim leader, if he’s unable to lead?

    • PolJunkie

      Say Shane O., no response?

      • Shane O.

        Err – I was out of the house for 4 hours, but okay.

        What’s the alternative? To go leaderless? To have a leader (Dion) who doesn’t command his own caucus? It appears that Ignatief has better control over Liberal MP’s than Dion did, but he’s still an unelected interim leader. The point of being elected leader is that it gives you a mandate (hence, why we have federal elections, and don’t just ask the Gov. Gen. to appoint individuals from Canadian society to form a government). I’m not a Liberal, but I think it’s fair to assume that until a leader is properly elected (not selected by party apparatchiks) from within that party, that party policy follows what it has done in the past. I’m interested to know if there is any Liberal party policy that would address this particular area. I suspect not, since there have long been pro-life Liberals who haven’t quit their party in disgust, even though this particular issue is one that pro-life MP’s are not willing to give much compromise on.

        • John.K

          So then, you think Iggy should support the coalition?

    • Francien Verhoeven

      Hear, hear,

      taking you up on consistency: Ignatieff should not be able to decide on the further workings of a coalition since he’s the interim leader and all………….exellent!

  • kody

    Re the comments about men.

    Cloaking this as a “man keeping woman under his thumb” issue is and interesting way of sidetracking the realities of abortion, and a handy way to deligitimize those who oppose.

    Not so subtle branding. Today’s tolerant progressive left.

    • PolJunkie

      Actually, “the realities of abortion” is something that, as a man, you will never be confronted with. Hence the reason why I have a problem with you wanting to force women to carry children they do not want.

      • Ryan

        Yes but this is the world in which we live. Just because it isn’t “fair” doesn’t mean one should have the option to kill a child simply to “even” things out.

        “Oh you don’t have to carry a child? Then neither do I!” I’m sorry, but for all the things that feminism is trying to make equal, biology is never going to sway to public opinion.

        • Sophie

          Ryan, forgive me, but how on earth does it do anyone nay good to have 15 year olds keeping their children?
          Why shouldn’t there be an option, answer me that.
          I’m sorry, but in my opinion, the rights of the living trump the rights of the not-yet-sentient.
          If a woman gets preganant, and can’t keep her child, whatever the reason, who are you or I to tell her that she has to?

          • Steve M

            140 comments on the abortion issue and nobody has mentioned the word “adoption”.

      • Ryan

        The problem with this whole debate is that everyone seems to believe their opponents are reprehensible, because they take their assumptions for granted. if the child in utero is a living person, the child has to be protected, and everyone would agree given that set of assumptions. If not, you’d have to be a Stalinist to demand that a woman carry this thing to term.

        • Sophie

          I think wehat it comes down to is everyone’s personal view on what constitues a ‘baby’. I personally woul dnever have an abortion, as I am Catholic, however, I am pro-choice, because it is not my buisiness to tell others how to live their lives or what is the best option fo rhtem. We cannot legislate morality, as ‘morality’ is a subjective concept.

          • Ryan

            Yeah, morality is something each has to decide for their own, but when another life is part of the debate, that makes it much more murkier of a debate. I don’t think it’s a simple “moral” or “immoral” case because some consider it murder.

            I could be wrong, but I do believe some animals will kill their young if they have no chance of survival. I suppose we aren’t that much different?

          • sf

            If you are truly a Catholic, as you claim to be, then you have made two errors:
            -morality is not subjective in the Catholic church, it is absolute
            -it is indeed a Catholic’s business to tell other people what is a sin and what isn’t, and what is right and wrong, although you certainly are not expected to force anyone to listen to you

          • wayne moores

            sf..it is precicely because of comments like yours I gave up on the Catholic church when I was about 15 years old. The idea of an organization riddles by pedofiles, paying hush money and shuffling priests around, and then telling women, who they treat as second class citizens, what to do, I find repulsive. The RC is sooo concerned about making sure all these featuses come to term. I wonder what for?

          • sf

            Sophie, it is your invocation of the word “Catholic” that is confusing to me. You use it as a reason to avoid an abortion, yet you certainly feel free to violate any other Catholic doctrines. In fact, you declare that morality if subjective. This declaration alone is a rejection of every aspect of Catholicism.

          • sf

            Wayne, don’t get me wrong, I am not a Catholic myself, I am just trying to clarify something, or at the least, understand what Sophie is trying to say.

          • Francien Verhoeven

            “We cannot legislate morality, as ‘morality’ is a subjective concept.”

            Interesting! Subjective as in meaning that morality has nothing to do with the ‘other’? Because if that’s what you mean, than morality could indeed never be legislated.

            However, if morality has anything to do with taking the ‘other’ into consideration, than indeed legislation would be able to deal with morality, namely that the ones who lack it would be guided by law into it, so that the ones already having it could continue to live by it.

        • Holly Stick

          The “child in utero” is a fetus inside a living woman’s body. No one has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body. You want to control a woman’s body? Leave Canada.

          • Sophie

            Sorry, sf, forgive me for realizing that my own personal morality, as it applies to me, need not apply to the other 32 million citizens of my country, which after all, welcomes people of all races, cultures and religions, all of whom will have their own ideas on morality. I can beleive something, and do so strongly, and not feel the need to force others to abide by my viewpoint..

          • Ryan

            Please try to think, and possibly read what other people say. As I am sure you agree, everyone has control over their bodies, whatever they want to do, until they affect someone else. If the baby is indeed “someone else”, than nobody could possibly support this “choice”. And if it isn’t, nobody could possibly oppose it. That’s the only issue. Whatever you believe about when life begins, understand that it’s not an easy question to answer and reasonable people can disagree.

            But since it’s easier to pretend to be morally superior to your opponents if you call them baby killers or sexists, I don’t expect to see anybody putting any thought into their posts here.

          • Mike T.

            Reasonable people can disagree. But they can’t force their beliefs on others who, in their turn, don’t agree with them.

          • http://www.truemuse.wordpress.com truemuse

            Maybe you can take the view that people should not propose what they want for other people, but rather what they want for themselves and their families (as a strarting point). If I have a daughter I don’t want her to be pressured into doing an abortion, or duped into thinking that doing an abortion is like cutting off a tumour. If I need or want an abortion I want to know all the health and emotional and moral risks to my present being, and I want to make an informed consent (however difficult that might be for me to do). How will be served if I do not express to my politicians, to those that have power, to those involved in the procedure, what I truly want? How will they serve me if they no experience delivering the service as I expect to recieve it? I want control of more than my body. I want control of how I am served by society and its agents as I struggle to continue to belong. Leaving Canada I may find less of what I want. Expressing what I want, here where I live, is my right and duty as a citizen.

          • Mike T.

            Yep, it’s pretty darn obvious you want control over more than yourself.

            You’ll be pleased to know that informed consent is already a legal requirement for any medical procedure, including abortion. A doctor who doesn’t give it can be charged with malpractice and lose their license or even be successfully sued. There are a lot of anti-abortionists who want unmedical bullcrap made a legal requirement of giving informed consent however, over-riding both doctors and common sense.

            More lies, more obfuscation. Where does it end with these dishonest feaks?

          • Paul

            ‘Leave Canada’

            So only people who see the world as Holly sees it can stay. Eventually she’ll be the only one left.

            You can call that being ” inside a living woman’s body” what ever you want. It does’nt deny the fact that the fetus has its own brain waves, blood type, heart beat, etc.

    • ron

      Decrying any criticism of your position as intolerance is a handy way of sidetracking the criticism with high pitched whining. Today’s “poor oppressed white guy me” right.

  • DianeG

    See, I knew this would go off into a debate about abortion.

    I am a feminist. I have no hesitation in saying that. I am not a man hater (my s.o. can testify to that). I have a family and am happy that I do. I am pro-choice for many many reasons.

    I’d like to get back to the point I made earlier. Ignatieff has not given a direct response yet, and I have no problem with that. The issue is long-standing and will not disappear in a puff of smoke. There are lots of ‘big’ issues. This is one of them. I’ve no doubt he will address it.

  • http://deleted Sandi

    I can’t believe that the media are so concerned at this very, exact, right now moment about Ignatieff’s answer – hey, maybe he hasn’t discussed it with caucus yet and would rather before responding. Layton and Harper have had years to represent their caucus – Ignatieff has not.

    C’mon folks, this is silly.

    No news today?

  • http://bcinto.blogspot.com Jeff

    It’s not a real committee if Kady doesn’t liveblog it, as far as I’m concerned.

  • Holly Stick

    So is the membership of this unofficial caucus secret because it consists of men who are unhealthily obsessed with controlling women’s sexual organs?

    • Douglass

      Yes.

      I want names.

    • PolJunkie

      If they had any sense, they’d name a woman as chair.

      • Holly Stick

        Ah, but they don’t trust women to make the right decisions.

      • http://www.truemuse.wordpress.com truemuse

        Kim Campbell wasn’t able to get her abortion bill passed in the early 90′s. She spoke eloquently about abortion and she proposed that nurse practioners be certified to perform it which would have made the procedure more widely available everywhere across Canada. She described herself as pro-choice. She was a conservative, a woman. Our country, Canada, had a bloodthirst for lawlessness. You can see the results today, of 400 rulings flowing from Morgantaler. Warped interpretations of what the security of a person ‘is’. Today our sensibilities of right and wrong are corrupted on so many more issues than abortion. There is no balance in our laws to protect. For instance, child protection laws give too much power to social agencies and have no comittment to keep families united. Charter rulings are left ‘standing’ (such as the Spanking ruling) while parliament follows the pattern of Morgantaler and doesn’t act with new legislation following important Charter decisions. Our entire legal system has been corrupted by the issue of abortion and how it was handled by our society.

        The pro-choice and pro-life positions are both extreme and politicize the issue away from the best outcomes for women and society. Hopefully, this pro-life committee will turn into a moderate multi-partisan group who will propose a law to protect against abuses in abortion care, a law that will help to restore our legal system.

  • Bazoo

    With stories like this, who even remembers Georganne Burke? How about a feature on the Georganne Burke story, or even better, a piece that starts with this latest story then goes on to explore more generally the conservative strategies towards ethnic groups.
    DREIDELGATE 08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO24s9GSv5E

    • catherine

      I suspect the CPC is still working full out on Dreidelgate. It will take a bit more time to come up with the appropriate smear against the organizer, ship the Rabbi off to the North Pole, and make sure the school knows who’s in charge of funding. Just a guess. But as we have seen in the past, when the CPC is quiet for a week, typically a few arms are still being twisted and then all of a sudden people start issuing affidavits like crazy.

      • DianeG

        I demand a Royal Commission, post haste. Um never mind the post haste – those two words don’t cooperate.

        Someone will probably be sued for releasing the information.

  • Holly Stick

    Here is an analogy: suppose every man here who argues against abortion is forced to have a vasectomy. If he really wants to have children, he can get the vasectomy reversed by going before a panel of three female doctors and convincing them that he is fit to be a father. Naturally, if he succeeds, he can pay for the reversal out of pocket because men’s issues are not covered by public health care. If he fails to convince the panel, or if he cannot afford the reversal in hospital, he can go to a back alley reversalist and risk bleeding to death or being neutered for life. Then self-righteous conservatives can say it’s his own fault; he should have kept his hands in his pockets and off his keyboard.

    That is roughly similar to what anti-abortion laws do to women.

    • http://prairiewrangler.wordpress.com/ Olaf

      I had no idea things were so bad in Sweden.

    • sf

      You are comparing having a vasectomy with having a baby? OK.

      The former is preventing something natural from happening, the latter is natural. Secondly, the latter involves another human being, namely, the baby, who should be given some consideration, being a human being under development and all.

      Anyway, it’s clear you are looking at this soley from a woman’s perspective, and ignoring the father and baby.

      Which is fine, I guess. But then you are tacking on another issue, that you think any medical procedure should be free, because otherwise people are gonna go ahead and do it themselves and hurt themselves. Which to me, is another issue.

      • Holly Stick

        I’m sorry youare not intelligent enough to understand the analogy. It’s about inappropriately exercising power over another person’s personal sovereignty.

        • sf

          Yes, you mean the mother exercising power over the unborn baby. Or do you mean the father exercising power over the mother. Or the state over the mother. Darnit, I’m just too stupid.

    • Say What?

      Oh, but the real toughie is what the absence of any abortion guidelines/laws does to *the unborn*.

      Heck, how about starting with the education system.

      Make biology applicable to their lives in a meaningful way.

      Show our young people what the unborn looks like throughout its development.

      Something about seeing 4-D ultrasound photos, with their distinct facial features, persuades.

      Maybe the next generations will be more willing to face the truth head-on, and open debate. One can always hope.

      Frankly, I have always hoped for a secret MP group, composed of more than two parties, who believed there should easier access to private healthcare clinics in Canada. That is in addition to those private abortion clinics.

      Then we could at least get care while we wimp out on debating this other issue.

      • Mike T.

        Missing your period also persuades, and in a way that doesn’t force your views on other people.

        I’m certainly against giving people fee reign to bible-pound their views into people, especially unasked for in a difficult, trying time. But the reason it absolutely cannot occur in this context is that anti-abortion forces tend to lie. Frequently. At great length. We’ve seen it in this thread.

      • sf

        I like your private healthcare clinics secret group idea, and if I were an MP I’d join.

  • Sophie

    By the way, KAdy, this is completely off topic, but you are the only reason I did well on that Parliamentary Process quiz. It’s hard!

    • Scott M.

      What quiz? I want to go to there!

      • Sophie

        upper right hand corner in ‘Quizzes’

  • Gaunilon

    Good lord. Can’t we at least agree that unborn children in the last few days of pregnancy are entitled to all the same rights as born children?? In Canada, they have no rights and can be killed for any reason at all. Why or how many women choose to do this is beside the point; we don’t let women choose to kill a newborn, likewise we should not let women choose to kill an unborn. Women’s rights do not extend to killing people.

    Therefore, the legal situtation re abortion is untenable. It follows that the members of this committee are the only MP’s who combine the rare traits of (a) rationality, and (b) spine.

    • DianeG

      “rationality? spine?”

      Why hide in corners then?

    • Mike T.

      Actually, I could live with a compromise that gave a constitutional guarantee to the right to abortion, proper funding, and increased family resources and services for all, in exchange for a deal that outlawed abortions in the last two or three days of pregnancy.

      • Gaunilon

        You seem to think this is a matter for negotiation. Is it your position that (a) childrens’ lives can be bargained, or (b) the fetus a few days prior to birth is not a child?

        If neither of the above, then you should acknowledge the necessity for protection of the unborn (without preconditions) as far back into the pregnancy as necessary in order to ensure that the abortion is not killing a child.

        • Mike T.

          Negotiation is how laws get made. The present system is working out very well for pro-choicers, not to mention women with unwanted pregnancies. If anti-abortinists want change, they should be prepared to make concessions. Big ones.

          • sf

            OK, so you are willing to kill less babies in exchange for something. Sounds a lot like the politics of slavery in the 19th century.

          • Mike T.

            I thought nobody could make a comparison more stupid than the Nazi one.

            Looks like I was mistaken. This is less offensive but just as dumb.

      • sf

        How the hell do you know when the last 2 or 3 days of pregnancy is, unless you have allowed the birth to take place?!!

        • Mike T.

          Use the expected delivery date determined by the doctor.

    • ron

      So whose rights take precedence there, Solomon? Must OBs in Canada be forced to allow mothers to die in childbirth so that they can allow deformed foetuses with infinitesimal chances of survival to be stillborn? Or are you going to join John McCain in sneering at “medical reasons” for terminating pregnancies too. No such thing, right? All late term abortions are enthusiastically performed by deranged OBs at the behest of their murderous pregnant clients.

  • http://www.truemuse.wordpress.com truemuse

    What always disturbs me about the abortion debate in Canada are the claims to finality. Abortion is forever a moral, criminal and women’s healthcare issue. A topic such as capital punishment as it relates to wrongful conviction — this is similar to abortion. There will always be those that are pushed into abortion, those that profit from it, those that regret it, those that benefit medically from it, those who abhor it, those who shun it, those who forbid it and those who worship it as a libertarian freedom. To keep our freedoms we must exercise them responsibly. Stephen Harpers derogation of the issue is irresponsible skirting. He deserves to have pro-life members call him to task to acknowledge that abortion cannot be participated in by members of society in an utterly lawless manner. The population will only follow the rule of law when it is administered fairly. It is unfair and unjust to allow Catholic hospitals to turn away women who need abortions to protect their lives. It is unfair and unjust to base the freedom and equality of Canadian women upon a premise that unfettered access to abortion is the beginning of freedom. These unprincipaled interpretations of rights and freedoms persist and while they do people are hurt by abortion in ways that need to be addressed, just as the need for safe abortion needs to be addressed. People will seek change from the hurt they suffer from abortion. That is political process.

    • Mike T.

      Except that our present reality shows the present lawlessness is working out A-OK.

  • Holly Stick

    Why this blogger calls late abortions “mercy abortions”:

    http://www.hotflashreport.com/story/2008/7/6/11737/20141

    “…You’re 28 weeks along and the OB/GYN that’s been caring for you can’t help you out. You see, the hospital where he practices will gladly take your money and let you give birth there, but they won’t let your OB/GYN perform a Mercy Abortion on you so that you can maintain your fertility for future pregnancies and lessen the devastation on you and your family by ending the pregnancy now.

    Oh no. The powers that be want you to carry that anencephalic baby for 10 more weeks, then give birth, then slowly watch it die right in front of your eyes…”

  • madeyoulook

    Kady, it kinda sorta was a straightforward answer. “We are not in a position to answer that today.” Fair enough.

    But the rest is, you’re right, bafflegab. Settled 20 years ago? Nunh-uh! The SCC destroyed existing legislation and sent it back to Parliament, asking for something consistent with the constitution and the Charter of Rights. Ever since, Parliament has abdicated its legislative responsibility. If that’s what passes for “settled,” then indeed the office of the Interim Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition has some homework to catch up on. Whoever above pointed us to Andrew Coyne’s contribution earlier this year is bang on. Whoever missed that and has an interest in this issue has some reading to do.

    When I first clicked in here, and saw there were 150+ comments, I just knew the discussion would migrate from your point about the straightforwardness issues coming from a political spokescritter to an abortion debate. I was not disappointed. Not enlightened, mind, but not disappointed.

    Happy New Year, Kady and fellow visitors.

  • DianeG

    If you assert that “Parliament has abdicated its legislative resonsibility” than you should also apply that to many other presently urgent matters.

  • http://www.sensnation.com/talk Darrell

    Can Ignatieff really be blamed for ignoring a group that has been safely ignored for so long? Shows he’s done his homework.

    Also shows he’s not giving in to the mindset of some previous Liberal leaders that were so scared of one bad headline in the next day’s paper that they turned themselves into knots every time the media came calling – usually creating a bad headline in the next FIVE day’s papers.

  • KRB

    Dan McTeague would be on this committee, along with Jason Kenney, no?

  • kody

    A woman’s “right to choose” like any other right in our society is not absolute.

    Our Charter specifically enshrined s. 1 which allows for a breach if it is demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

    Whether it is or isn’t justified is a matter to be determined through proper public discouse and open debate. What isn’t proper discourse is:

    - shaming people out of the debate with allegations of sexism and male domination or religious bigotry;
    - denying the very real sceince behind fetal development, and now amplified by modern colour ultrasound where everyday Canadians can see thier babies hiccup, react to pain, and even cry;
    - brushing off as mere technicalities the low percentages of late term abortions, without extrapoliating that 1.4% (the estimated figure) results in the extermination of hundreds of babies that can feel pain, are on the verge of being born etc, every year;
    - taking the rare rape victim (or other example of a young vulnerable pregnant woman who may do herself harm if abortions are not performed), and distorting it as the norm (again in an effort to shame and shut down debate) rather than the exeption which can be accounted for in any legislation, while ignoring that abortion has become an easy form of birth control for many.

    Debate is precisely what is called for.

    And debate is precisely what the pro-abortion left are deathly afraid of. An honest, open discussion considering all aspects, both pro and con of abortion would most certainly change the status quo.

    • Mike T.

      Nobody has yet to prove that babies on the verge of being born are being aborted.

      This is the problem with debate – anti-abortinists lie.

      • MIchael

        Mike T.

        Surely you have heard of Partial Birth Abortion.

        • Mike T.

          Partial birth abortions are a late term abortion method – not a method that involves killing babies a short way from being born.

          You are lying or ignorant. Typical anti-abortinist.

          • Paul

            Any time you resort to name calling – you’ve lost your ability to debate the issue. The point is not whether partial birth abortions take place in Canada often, rarely or at all. The point is this, because we have absolutly no laws prohibiting abortion at any stage, any thing can take place.

          • Mike T.

            I stand by all my comments. Read more carefully.

    • DianeG

      ‘pro-abortion left’ nope definitely not , pro choice (there’s a difference and your choice of terms reveals your lack of understanding) ) pro sex education pro contraception. Those on the left (and I include myself among them) are very willing to engage in honest dicussion.

      This thread however ,is not the place for that debate.

    • Derek Pearce

      It someone’s own problem Kody if they are “shamed” out of the debate. I find it hard to believe that anyone so fervent on either side of this issue would let themselves be “shamed” into silence.

      At what point in development can fetuses “hiccup, react to pain or cry”? Something tells me well after the first trimester. This is one issue on which pro-choice people are actually much more flexible than the opposing side– I could live with legislation that confined it to the first trimester while also explicity stating that it is a choice between a woman and her doctore– anit-abortion folks want ALL abortion banned, period. Regardless of the fact that they would still happen, only underground and unregulated.

      You’re example of accusing the other side of using rape victims as the norm is cancelled out by your use of “out to be born babies being aborted” as the norm.

      Abortion IS NOT AN EASY FORM of “birth control.” It is a difficult and distressing decision, and that’s an understatement. Birth control is a preventive action. Oh- and I love your casual “for many” thrown in at the end of that sentence. Shall we get into a side debate how many is “many” women?

      Finally, you make the common mistake of using the term “pro-abortion.” No one is pro-abortion. I don’t want every last pregnant woman on Earth to abort every time a pregnancy occurs. I simply respect that the state has no place controlling womens’ bodies like that and I respect that my own opinion should not hold such sway over the choices a woman makes in regard to her own body. It is her choice, and that is the only thing I’m “pro” about on this issue.

    • joops

      Kody,

      Get your own damn uterus.

  • DianeG

    ” spokeswoman for Mr. Ignatieff refused to say whether the new Liberal Leader will allow any of his members to continue to advocate openly for reduced access to publicly funded abortions.”

    The statement refers to what Mr. Ignatieff would or would not allow members of his party to do.

    The actual question is not quoted directly in the Globe Artlicle, nor is it quoted by K O’M

  • Al Heck Brakes

    “After his self-described twenty years of sustained and unapologetic opposition to abortion, euthanasia and same-sex marriage, if anyone was begging for a slapdown from a PPLC-averse party, it would have been Tom Wappell – yet he sat as a member of the Liberal caucus for his entire career.”

    An MP’s paycheque, benefits and pension sure buy a lot of silence and acquiescence, don’t they?

    To be fair, not all the paycheque hypocrites are in the LPC. They pretty much infest every party. One notes the conservative sheep who are going along with the Bob Rae inspired bankruptcy of Canada now taking place on the bailout/stimulus front.

From Macleans