The Madness: Democrats vs Parliamentarians

As we lead up to the return of the House, battle lines are being…

by Andrew Potter on Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:58am - 128 Comments

As we lead up to the return of the House, battle lines are being drawn over the legitimacy of the forgotten-but-not-dead coalition. Two clear positions have emerged: On the one side, there is a group we can call the Democrats. The Democrats believe that while the coalition may be constitutionally  ok in a narrow, legal sense, it violates basic principles of democratic legitimacy. Two prominent Democrats are Michael Bliss and Norman Spector.

On the other side are the Parliamentarians. This group — which includes almost every academic in the country — points out that we elected a parliament, not a party or a president; that parliamentary coalitions are unremarkable in all sorts of civilied countries; and that Harper’s Conservatives had clearly lost the confidence of the House, with a stable government waiting to take over.

At the start, I was a staunch Parliamentarian, and I took Harper to task for claiming that the coalition was an attempt to overturn the results of the last election. I believed the coalition was politically a Bad Idea, but both constitutionally sound and democratically legitimate. I have changed my mind. I am now a Democrat; I have become persuaded by the arguments of men like Professor Bliss — whose piece on the Madness was the best thing he’s written in years — and finally of Richard Van Loon, who has a finely argued piece in today’s OC. Here’s the best part:

So what really makes a coalition legitimate?

International precedents suggest three conditions. One is that the country faces a compelling national emergency, usually a major war. A second, broadly applicable in less troubled times, is that voters must know in advance that they are voting for potential members of a coalition, one which will govern if its members can claim a majority of seats in the legislature immediately after the election. A third is that a party with a plurality, already in government or immediately after an election, forms the coalition and immediately seeks support of the legislature. But as the New Zealand experience in the late 1990s suggests the latter is not always a successful strategy. Stable coalitions in peacetime are virtually always underpinned by the results of an election in which voters were aware of the possibility of their formation.

The current coalition agreement in Canada does not meet any of these tests…

My interview with Peter Russell, who disagrees with me on this, will appear soon.

Bookmark and Share
  • KW

    Ti Guy says: “And once again, the only thing Canadians vote for individually is an MP and collectively elect a Parliament.”

    Really? I doubt it…I would wager that somewhere north of 90% of Canadians vote for a party, based on who they want to be the Prime Minister.

    The whole “vote for an MP” thing is a bit amusing actually…particularly considering most Canadians couldn’t name their MP…I hardly even looked at their names on the ballot.

    Also, someone stopped by my office during the ‘madness’ and started a sentence with “In the history of Canada…” Interesting I told him…what you say is accurate, but consider this, we don’t live in the history of Canada, we live in 2008..er 9..(dammit!)

    “The past is a foreign country..they do things differently there.” – someone smarter than me said that.

    Count me a Democrat.

    • T. Thwim

      considering most Canadians couldn’t name their MP…I hardly even looked at their names on the ballot.

      So you’re lazy then. Parties mean squat. They’re a short-hand for the lazy — and in many ways the antithesis of representative democracy. That most Canadians may do it doesn’t necessarily make it the correct thing. Hell, I’m hopeful this coalition will spark a rennaisance of people actually examining their local candidates — if only so that Rob Anders stops getting elected.

      • KW

        I think it’s a little snarky to say lazy…no?

        I researched the party platforms (really), watched the debates in both languages, and not the translations, and read the news pretty carefully, considering more than one source.

        In truth, I can name my MP, because I did know who it was before, and watched the returns on election day.

        I’m not lazy.

        That being said, given the relative powers of the PM, and the average backbench MP in a whipped parliament, well, why waste all the time researching your individual MP candidates views on thousands of issues (and how would we expect them to coherently formulate them)? I think I remember some guy saying that the average MP is a nobody some number of feet off Parliament Hill (metres surely?)

        Parties certainly don’t mean squat…that’s just foolish, and I suspect you’re smart enough to know it. They are not the antithesis of representative democracy..in fact, it’s probably the only way it will actually work…that’s most governments tend toward them. In what way can you envision a functioning executive (PMO + cabinet) without parties? – real ways, not pie-in-the-sky rainbows and ponies ways.

        By the way, I’d check the temperature of your coalition…I think rigor may be setting in.

    • Richard

      KW – there’s a difference between who you voted for and who or what you based your vote upon. I could just as easily suggest that most people voted for an unrecognizable Conservative candidate as their MP on the basis that Laureen Harper cares for kittens. That doesn’t bestow nor remove legitimacy from our Parliamentary system.

      I’m a democrat and a parliamentarian. I voted for my MP, and if my democratically elected MP has enough support to get stuff passed in Parliament, then so be it.

      • KW

        You certainly could suggest that, except you’d be wrong. I expect you’d find that I’m not.

        Think of election time, ask your buddy the question “Who do you think will win?” (because it would be gauche to ask who they are going to vote for) what’s the answer? It’s “Harper” or, uhhh, “Dion”…I would bet that no one has ever had the following conversation:

        “Who do you think will win”

        “In the federal election? Well, I believe that in the riding of Backwater-Snowyville-Middle-of-Nowhere the winner will be Jo Blough”

        “Huh? What party is he?”

        “He’s a she…anyway, what difference what party she is? As long as she has enough support to get things passed…”

        “….” (The person that asked the original question has now moved away from the other person)

        • cwe

          In my riding, lots of people were having that conversation, except it went a little more like this:

          “Who do you think will win?”

          “Well, I hope Linda Duncan will win, because she’s smart and motivated at the very least, whereas Rahim Jaffer’s a lazy ass who’s done sfa for this riding in the ten years he’s represented it.”

          “Yeah, me too. And it picks my ass that he’s hardly bothered to campaign this time around, like he thinks he’s entitled to the job or something.”

          “Yeah, or something. But Duncan’s NDP, isn’t she? Are you worried about that?”

          “I don’t think so, are you? Especially not when it’s a choice between that and some order-following Con-bot. I hate that crap.”

          “Yeah, really. Hey, as adult Canadians, let’s go somewhere and hoist one to parliamentary democracy.”

          “Yeah, republics can suck it! Let’s go!”

          • Strathconian

            I would guess, from my door-knocking for Linda Duncan, that there were also a lot of conversations in Edmonton Strathcona that went like this:

            “Who do you think will win?”

            “There’s an election? I guess I’ll go vote for the Conservative then. Who is that, anyway? I’ll have another beer.”

      • madeyoulook

        Hey, don’t sweat it, folks who voted for party or leader instead of candidate. If some among us can actually declare with straight faces that their sole motivation to vote was so that their X determined which party gets a couple bucks per year…

    • Ti-Guy

      I’d prefer to count you as an ignorant. And proud of it, by the looks of it.

      Lordy. A “democrat” who doesn’t even know the name of the candidate he’s voting for. We are truly screwed.

      • KW

        For the record, I knew who I was voting for…it was a bit of license.

        Nonetheless, the message remains the same.

        We are truly screwed?

        Here’s the truth my idealistic friends – in macro-political terms, the personal identity of a backbench MP is much less important than their party affiliation!!

        It’s a whipped parliament!

        Someone who believes that their MP is individually considering each vote based on their own personal platform is the one who’s ignorant…come on, seriously.

        I’m going to search for the actual quote..

        Here it is: “…when they are fifty yards from Parliament Hill, they are no longer honourable members – they are just nobodies..”

        Who was this ignoramus? I’ll leave it to you to guess.

        Cripes!

        I can just imagine you guys, standing around the watercooler during the campaign studiously avoiding talking about parties or ‘whichever random MP the GG may or may not select to be the Prime Minister’

        C’mon and join us here in the 21st century…the water’s fine.

        • Jack Mitchell

          The point is who has the authority to do what, KW, not who you may or may not or then again may well have thought you might have been voting for, all things considered, after consulting your buddy.

          • KW

            I think your keyboard is stuck.

            I may, or may not, but then again may (maybe not though) have any clue what you may or maybe not, but maybe did or may not have been trying to say.

          • Jack Mitchell

            The point is that it doesn’t matter if you thought you were voting for an extraterrestrial, a mermaid, or whatever, it’s what you were actually doing that counts. Even if you were conscientious as all hell about researching party platforms and doing 10 pushups on election day and whatnot.

      • KW

        By the way, disagreeing with you seriously does not equal ignorant.

        I say this having read lots of your previous posts…so I’m fairly informed on this.

        • Scott M.

          I think Ti-Guy was saying that if you didn’t know who you voted for that would mean you’re ignorant… sounds about right to me.

          • Ti-Guy

            Indeed I was. I’m not labouring under any idealistic delusions about how Parliament and political parties operate, but when it comes down to novel situations/crises like this past one, fundamental concepts and strictly legal definitions are what count.

        • Jack Mitchell

          Sure, granted. But the key thing is, what were you actually doing in the voting booth? You were choosing an MP. In the pre-minority era, that may have equated automatically to voting for a party, but these days the local representative nature of our system is to the fore.

          Anyway, if you voted Tory and the guy got in, there’s no problem. If you voted Tory and the Tory didn’t win, well, complain to your fellow electors. If you voted Liberal or NDP and the riding went Liberal or NDP but you didn’t plan for your chosen MP to be part of the government, the joke’s on you. Pick one.

          • KW

            Everyone!

            For the last time, yes, I know who I voted for.

            But, I live in Quebec. My options are: The separatist, or whoever is most likely to beat the separatist. So I consider the vote totals from the last election or two to see what party that is, and then DECIDE IF I WANT THAT PARTY TO FORM THE NEXT GOVERNMENT.

            If the answer is that I would not want that party under any circumstances, then I vote for the one I would rather have, even if that means the separatist is more likely to win.

            If I can accept the possibility of that party forming a government, then I vote to try an unseat the BQ candidate.

            It never happens anyway. It’s not even close.

            I think that the scenario above, which includes checking the platforms etc as noted, is hardly irresponsible, or ignorant, or lazy.

            I believe that it is a practical way to make a decision, given the circumstances. Agree? Good, now note – the names of the candidates does not appear in my scenario. Sure, there are some great constituency MPs, and I truly believe most MPs work much harder than people give them credit for, then there are cabinet ministers etc, who have name recognition.

            In the course of my work, I sometimes drive past a lonely sign bearing the name of the poor candidate in Lasalle. His name was apparently Stephane Dion. Does anyone believe he was running simply to be the MP from Lasalle? Would anyone say that by virtue of being returned to the house as the MP for Lasalle that Mr. Dion, uh, won? I rather think not.

            Be honest with yourself. Yes, the names of your local MPs are on the individual ballots…but people vote for PM…they just do.

            Wishing, or being conversant in constitutional arcana doesn’t change that fact. The polls ‘post-coalition’ bear out this truth, as does the GG’s decision to prorouge.

          • Ti-Guy

            Well, a federalist in a non-federalist Quebec riding is a particular set of circumstances that not all of us are faced with.

          • Jack Mitchell

            I’m sure we’re all very sorry that you live in a BQ riding, but it’s honestly not our fault that your vote counts for nothing, KW. You could always move.

          • KW

            It’s a fine place to live, and on a daily basis, the party affliation of my parliamentary representatives doesn’t come up too much…(at least that I’ve noticed). There are Liberal (provincial, not federal) ridings nearby, and the schools/roads don’t seem any nicer…

            Anyway, I don’t remember complaining about the value of my vote, and doubt it’s reason enough to sell the house in this economic climate anyway…”Hey honey, we’re moving out, my vote’s worthless!” KOOONNNGGG! [that's what I imagine the word is for the sound of a frying pan hitting my head]. All that to say, it’s all good.

            I will say this, that by virtue of the fact that I wasn’t further mercilously pounced on, you sort of grudgingly kind of admit that I at least may or may not (but then again may) be lazy and ignorant…hmm?

            Quick: Name the PM!

            Now name your MP!

            /You had to think about the second one, didn’tcha? Just a bit?
            //Yes you did…

          • Jack Mitchell

            I don’t think you’re lazy and ignorant at all, just that you want to have your cake and eat it too. You’re blurring the reasons you voted the way you did with the power you actually had in voting. That’s not ignorance, it’s sophistry.

  • http://none Karl Nerenberg

    A few points in response to Rick’s piece on the Coalition in thee Ottawa Citizen:

    Germans did not vote for the current Christian Democrat/ Social Democrat “grand” coalition. Nor did the Belgians know what sort of coalition they might get when they went to the polls. In fact, during the life of a single Belgian parliament, coalitions tend to shift and change. There are many other examples, in many countries, of parties coalescing after an election without having promised to do so prior to the election.

    Plus, notwithstanding the factual accuracy or inaccuracy of the argument, I would note that the true measure of a coalition’s democratic legitimacy is not whether voters knew what political/structural arrangement they might be voting for. It is what policies citizens believed were voting for, or voting against.

    In that sense, the current putative Canadian coalition is proposing a policy suite that is perfectly consistent with the electoral platforms of the member parties.

    The Liberals have dropped their Green Shift and the NDPers their proposed corporate tax-cut rollbacks. But neither party has agreed to accept any measures that are in contradiction with the platforms on which they campaigned during the election campaign.

    In their November Fiscal Update, on the other hand, the Conservatives proposed all kinds of measures about which they uttered not a word during the campaign (eliminating the public sector right to strike, for instance). Now, the Conservatives are preparing to abandon all of those never-promised initiatives and will propose a whole new series of measures — again, most of which did not form part of their electoral program.

    Given that factual background, if the Government were to fall toward the end of January/early February, why would the Governor-General not look beyond a Prime Ministerial request for dissolution and another election? Even if public opinion were whipped up over a so-called “alliance with the separatists” and polls showed that many voters would be opposed to a coalition government — should a GG be governed by opinion polls?

    It seems to me that the more important determining factors would be:

    1) The amount of Parliamentary time elapsed ( If the government falls sometime shortly after the 26th of January Parliament will have only sat for about two weeks, maybe three);

    2) Is there a viable alternative government? (With the coalition arrangement the answer is yes);

    3) Which option, i.e., coalition government versus election, would likely cause the least harm? (A coalition could act on the economy right away — after an already unacceptable, government-forced prorogation delay. An election would delay action by at least another six weeks!)

    In addition, there is ample precedence in our Westminster system (at both the Canadian federal and provincial levels and in other countries, such as Australia) for a GG to refuse a Prime Minister’s request for dissolution, and to call on opposition parties to form a new Government when Parliament loses confidence in a Government.

    • KW

      Do you still, in your heart, believe that the coalition is still a viable alternative in government? – a stable alternative?

      Considering Mr. Dion didn’t last a fortnight beyond the famous ‘signing ceremony’ intended to make him Prime Minister, I wonder.

      Mr. Ignatieff has made noises about hoping the stimulus budget is good enough for him to support.

      He has a leadership convention coming up in May, and the Liberals, along with the NDP, are bankrupt (no?)

      Give me a couple of your ample examples of a *Canadian* precedent (we don’t live in Australia), at the federal level, of the GG’s refusal to dissolve…degree of difficulty – not King-Byng, because it ended badly…now throw into the mix the facts above, and simmer.

      Add as a garnish – the current government expanded its seat total in the recent election, are only 12 short of a majority, and polls show that those pesky plebes are heartily against the usurpers.

      And yes, I do believe that the Crown should be at least a little concerned with the overwhelming wishes of the people. I believe the function of the Crown should be at least in part to enforce the will of the people despite the actions of parliament when necessary, no? – and don’t give me the legalese, this is a practical matter.

  • Herb

    Go back to the parliamentarian side, Andrew. Van Loon’s “democratic” argument is based on describing a limited number of phenomena in the category of coalitions, and deriving criteria for all coalitions from this limited phenomenology. For instance, where is the consideration of coalitions where parties change partners without benefit of going back to their electorate for legitimacy for such a move, as in Germany in 1982?

    Poor metaphysics, and even worse as political science now pretending to be definitive and prescriptive.

    • http://macleans.ca kc

      KW
      If wishes were fishes… People may “think” they vote for their Pm, but that doesn’t change the “fact” that they don’t. They just don’t know it, most of them anyway.

      • KW

        Come now, it fundamentally changes the “fact”.

        Politicians who ignore that fact do so at their peril…they may well just educate the public enough to remember to vote “them” out of “office” at the next “opportunity” because they don’t like people who game the system to suddenly win something everyone was pretty certain they’d lost.

        Yes, yes, everyone should be more aware of the constitutional underpinnings of the parliamentary system, yes, yes, the words “Prime Minister” do not appear in the constitution, we get all that.

        But, what people “think” they’re doing absolutely matters. It’s the difference between de jure and de facto…ask a criminal lawyer about the importance of intent.

        Explain to a town hall meeting of angry voters in the next election that they may have thought they elected a Harper government, but actually what they’d done, see, is, er, elected a Dion/Layton government.

        It may be legal, but it doen’t pass the stink test.

        Voter intent matters…legitimacy: it’s one of those things I guess, hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

        • Ti-Guy

          “Explain to a town hall meeting of angry voters”

          Conservatives are always angry. I really don’t care anymore.

        • John.K

          OK, so we’ll take it as given that most people think they’re voting for the PM, and it’s the individual votes of the citizenry that matter, not the legal result (ie, which MP gets a plurality or majority in which riding.)

          Most people did not vote for the Conservative choice for PM.

          Hence, Mr. Harper has no legitimacy? Is that the result of your argument?

          • KW

            No….you’re going to feel silly in a second.

            There are more than two candidates for the job, right? (first past the post…)

            Here’s a list of Canadian Prime Ministers elected with less than 50.0% of the popular vote, results from http://www.nodice.ca

            McDonald (the guy on the purple money)
            Laurier (the guy on the blue money)
            Meighen
            King (the guy on the red money)
            Bennett
            Diefenbaker
            Pearson (the airport guy)
            Trudeau (another airport guy)
            Clark (chocolate bar guy? – oh, and shoes)
            Mulroney (also shoes…but in a different, less whimsical way)
            Chrétien
            Martin
            Harper

            NB – That’s about half of ‘em…some not on the list were never elected, Campbell, Turner…some actually got majority votes, Tupper, Bowell, Borden (yeah, the brown money guy), etc.

            So, you were saying?

  • Greg

    I am sure it is a misprint. It must be Republicans vs. Parliamentarians, surely?

    • PolJunkie

      Greg, I think Potter was deliberate in using the term “democrats” and not “republicans.” If he admits that this position is in fact that of a “republican” and that “parliamentarians” are, by definition, also democrats, his entire argument goes out the window.

      This coalition is legitimate, legal and democratic. The leader of a Minority government MUST maintain the confidence of the House. The minute he loses it, it is the DUTY of the Opposition parties to form a coalition and replace it.

      Only a “republican” would think otherwise. Even Harper doesn’t believe this coalition to be illegitimate since he himself has attempted to form one in the past.

  • Norman Spector

    Andrew,

    In addition to making the case (on cbc.ca) that the proposed coalition would lack democratic legitimacy, I’ve argued in the Globe and Mail that the opposition parties are on shaky constitutional grounds in proposing that the GG refuse a request for dissolution and hand the government over to them without an election.

    Norman

    • Jack Mitchell

      Well, that settles it, then.

    • Brad

      OK, I tried to find the article, but couldn’t. A link would have helped, or a synopsis. Specifically, what “constitutional” grounds would apply? Conventions, maybe, but those same conventions would make room for grey areas.

      If the confidence vote had happend in December, how could she not at least give the coalition an opportunity to demonstrate it could carry the confidence of the House? I believe it is now argualble that enough time has passed and enough public opinion expressed and advice taken that she might come to a differnet conclusin, equally validly. But at the time, what possible constitutional reason could exist to support such a position?

      • Jack Mitchell

        It might be arguable that enough time has passed, but the time passed because of the prorogation delaying tactic, so I would say we’re back where we were a month ago in terms of the no-election handover clock, i.e. the prorogation “time out” shouldn’t count, constitutionally speaking. Of course, from the POV of public acceptance that Harper won the last election, every delay helps, a side benefit (for Harper) of the prorogation.

    • Geiseric the Lame

      “democratic legitimacy”

      Not that I’m always that quick at picking up on the latest in catch phrases and all they connote in the minds of the better informed, but a party legally mustering the numbers it needs to best forward its agenda sounds pretty damn democratically legitimate to me.

      • KW

        If we elect a majority government let’s say in a regular vanilla-type election, and two weeks later the PM walks up to the scrum and says: ‘We’re going to invade Finland,’ then by the test of simply ‘having the numbers’ you would be OK with that? (for simplicity’s sake, assume the majority party is sufficiently wrangled.)

        Is that democratically legitimate? Or, would the voters be fair in saying – hey wait a minute, we didn’t elect you to do that!

        I think we’d have a right to expect someone (the Crown?) to put a stop to something like that, without having to wait 4-5 years to throw the bums out, no?

        Now OK, OK, it’s a silly scenario that would never happen for loads of reasons, but I think it’s still instructive. No laws or rules are broken in the situation, but there’s clearly something wrong with it. That’s the legitimacy thing, as far I’m concerned.

        M. Dion, in the case of the 2008 election ‘lost’ badly enough on election night that he was forced to announce he would be resigning his position. I don’t remember anyone objecting at the time, talking about parliamentary rules, etc. or feeling that he could or should be given a shot at forming a government…his own party was clamouring to be rid of him…(this of course says nothing about his character, which seems exemplary).

        Scant weeks later, we’re told that ‘well actually, it seems he’s sort of won, and could legitimately govern.’ *Days* later, he is essentially marched-out the door…yeesh.

        • Jack Mitchell

          Re: invading Finland, yes it would be democratically legitimate, and no there is no one who could help you (esp. not the Crown). What you could do is inform the government, by protesting in the streets and/or emailing your MP, that they are committing political suicide. In short, voting is a serious business, not a popularity contest.

          • KW

            You could go to court.

            The GG could dissolve parliament or refuse royal assent to any spending bills to fund the action.

            But I think option 1 is the easier, faster, and not so nutty a course of action.

            Why is it political suicide? (Well, it’s nuts for one) ..because the government didn’t seek a mandate for the action…it doesn’t have the legitimacy, one might say.

            Anyway, I suspect you know this, and are debating for sport.

  • KW

    One more thing…

    I’ve said in this discussion that I believe that most Canadians are actually voting for PM when they cast their ballots. I’ve subsequently been cast as ‘proud[ly] ignorant’ and lazy.

    People yammer on about electing MPs, not parties, ‘any group of members with enough support’ etc…these folks are clearly supporters of the coalition.

    I wonder, harkening back to the heady days of the Sponsorship Scandal, how many of those folks would have been heard to advocate for the re-election of the LPC (with Paul Martin at its head), noting -

    ‘but..but..Paul Martin was out of the loop!’

    When it’s Harper, it’s all parliamentary rules and constitutional arcana…when it’s the Liberals, (no wait, wasn’t it Team Paul Martin?) it’s another story entirely.

    Glad I remembered that.

    • T. Thwim

      It’s a common error, thinking that “against the Conservatives” means “in support of the Liberals”, especially among Conservatives who have difficulties dealing with more than two possibilities at a time.

      That said, I didn’t support Martin in general, but after the Sponsorship thing, I was actually somewhat in favor of him. He was the first politician I’ve ever seen who came right out and said “We screwed up. I screwed up. We’re doing what we can to fix it.” How effective that was remains to be answered, but no matter how much I dislike Martin in general, he got large kudos from me for that simple admission.

      • KW

        How big of him, to go right on ahead and admit the GLARINGLY OBVIOUS.

        Courage personified.

From Macleans