Why we don’t need to make polygamy a crime

A man can have sex with as many women as he likes. But he can’t marry more than one.

by Andrew Coyne on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:45pm - 59 Comments

Why we don’t need to make polygamy a crime

Whatever you may have heard, the case of Winston Blackmore and James Oler, the fundamentalist Mormon preachers from Bountiful, B.C. whose polygamy trial begins next week, is not about religious freedom. Nor is it about gay marriage, or child abuse, or any of the other extraneous issues with which partisans of one stripe or another would like to festoon the debate.

It certainly isn’t about whether the two men are guilty of the crime of polygamy under Section 293 of the Criminal Code, which prohibits “any kind of conjugal union with more than one person at the same time whether or not it is by law recognized as a binding form of marriage.” The defence does not contest the charges, but rather intends to argue the law is a violation of their freedom of religion as guaranteed under the Charter of Rights.

They’re free to argue their case as they please, of course, but the argument for removing polygamy from the Criminal Code does not depend on appeals to religious freedom. It would make no more sense to charge an atheist with the crime than a backwoods preacher, if the law were not capable of defence on its own merits, nor would the harm to religious freedom be enough to invalidate the law if it were. We should consider the matter, rather, in light of what the criminal law is for: what sorts of things the state may rightly prohibit, and what it may not, mindful that the burden of proof is always on the state, not merely to prove that a crime has been committed, but that it should be considered a crime at all.

It isn’t the discriminatory impact of Sect. 293 that condemns it, but simply that it is overkill. We don’t need to criminalize polygamy, not because we think it’s right or even acceptable, but because it is not the sort of behaviour properly addressed by the criminal law, and because we have other, less intrusive means of registering society’s abhorrence. And if we don’t need to criminalize a thing, we probably shouldn’t.

Consider first that most of those involved (we’ll deal with the exceptions in a minute) are adults who freely entered into these relationships. The criminal law does not normally concern itself with acts between consenting adults, except where these result in some harm to another. Now consider the kinds of things that are not prohibited between consenting adults. A man may have sex with as many women (or men) as he likes, serially or coincidentally, individually or all at once. He may father children with any or all of them. He can marry one of them, and have sex with the rest. He can live together with all of them and their children, so long as they don’t marry or have sex. All of these things he can do without being charged with a crime. The only thing the law prohibits him from doing is marrying (or living in “conjugal union” with) more than one woman at the same time. (Well, not only that: it also includes anyone who “celebrates, assists or is party to a rite, ceremony, contract or consent that purports to sanction” such a relationship. It’s the 21st century, and we’re prosecuting rites and ceremonies.)

If the harm arising from polygamy were of a kind that required sending a man to prison, it could surely as easily be traced to one of its component acts: the sex, the multiple partners, the living together. Or if there is evidence that some of the wives were forced into marriage, or were underage—neither consenting, that is, nor adults—then prosecute these crimes under the relevant statutes. In neither case is there any need for a separate, additional charge of polygamy.

If we don’t like polygamous marriages, we don’t have to throw people in jail for performing them: we can just refuse to recognize them. Reserve the legal recognition of marriage to monogamous couples, as we do now, and leave consenting adults to work out the rest in private.

Isn’t this still discrimination? Wouldn’t the definition of marriage in monogamous terms be vulnerable to the same constitutional challenges by polygamy advocates that earlier overturned the definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman? Aren’t we on that slippery slope that opponents of gay marriage warned us about?

Well, no. Yes, it’s discrimination. And yes, polygamists might challenge it in court. That doesn’t mean they’d win. The Charter does not prohibit all discrimination. It prohibits only those forms of discrimination that cannot be justified as “reasonable.” The reason the old heterosexual definition of marriage did not survive scrutiny was that its defenders could not convincingly identify the harm that would result if it were expanded to include homosexuals. But nothing in that implies that a reasonable case could not be made as to the harm—to the equality of women, to the raising of children, to the stability of marriage in general—that would arise from conferring legal status on polygamous marriages, with all of the rights that would accrue thereto.

And if we couldn’t? If we can’t show evidence of harm? If we don’t have a good reason to discriminate, then we probably shouldn’t.

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  • http://liblogs.ca Jason Cherniak

    Marriage brings certain legal rights with it. Upon dissolution, the partners have a right to sue each other for spousal support and property rights. If you allow polygamy, then nothing is to stop a person from being married, separating, then marrying another person. If the second marriage falls apart, which partner has priority? When you outlaw polygamy, you create very clear rights that are enforceable. Take that away and you will need to rework the entire regime. For what purpose?

  • Brian Westley

    “If you allow polygamy, then nothing is to stop a person from being married, separating, then marrying another person.”

    If laws recognizing polygamy were written sensibly, ALL members of a current marriage would need to consent to adding another person to the marriage, since a new legal relationship is being formed with every member in the relationship.

    “When you outlaw polygamy, you create very clear rights that are enforceable.”

    That isn’t a function of outlawing polygamy; you can have clear or unclear marriage rights, depending how the laws are written. You can also have clear, enforceable rights if polygamy is allowed.

  • camacleod

    “A man may have sex with as many women (or men) as he likes, serially or coincidentally, individually or all at once.”

    As an aside, the criminal code actually does not allow this for certain specific sexual acts. Talk about the state hanging out in my bedroom! More info: http://www.sexualityandu.ca/adults/sex-12.aspx

  • Scott Middleton

    Ah Yes , but Cults do that continuously just so they can ignore the law! And most governments do not have the Ballox to deal with them. as they might “offend” someone!

    • Brian Westley

      “Cults do that continuously just so they can ignore the law!”

      Do what continuously? And how does it allow them to “ignore” the law?

      • Scott Middleton

        hide behind some “religious Right” or “religious freedom” as they claim, to do and act as they like. with impunity!
        this is a typical act of a Cult. to legitimize what is illegal for the main stream society.

        • Mark

          Like same-sex marriage.

  • Wayne

    Hey why do people keep forgetting about women! What about polyandry hmmm? gotta turn up sooner or later only fair now.

  • Brian Westley

    “Polygamy” means more than one spouse. Polyandry and polygyny are sex-specific. Polygamy laws ought to be sex-neutral in any case.

  • Jim Chapman

    I submitted the following to the Creston paper (Bountiful is just outside of Creston) and they gave it the title “What is religious freedom”.

    My own title was — The Constitutionality of the Canadian Charter of Rights

    Last week, in reference to the polygamy charges against Blackmore and Oler, BC’s Attorney General Wally Oppal stated: “I am pleased a prosecution will be proceeding, as it will provide legal clarity as to the constitutionality of section 293 of the Criminal Code”. This week, Blair Suffredine, a lawyer for Mr. Blackmore, stated: “This case is primarily a constitutional issue.”
    They are both questioning the constitutionality of the anti-polygamy law which predates the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, wherein it states that we Canadians have freedom of religion. What no one seems to question is the constitutionality of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which was added to the constitution by P.E.Trudeau. The Charter begins: Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
    If Canada recognizes that God is supreme, would not God’s laws take precedent over Canada’s laws, and, who’s version of God: Christian, Mormon, Muslim, Catholic, … the list goes on. Where is freedom of religion as stated in the Charter if God is supreme and His commands or laws are to be followed?
    In the Muslim’s sharia law, anyone who tries to leaves Islam, is to be killed –there is no freedom. And, according to the Qur’an, Christians and Jews are to pay taxes to Muslims (Qur’an 9:29). Would Canadians want this law?
    Just as Muslims follow the dictates of Muhammad found in the Qur’an, Mormons follow the dictates of Joseph Smith written in the Book of Mormon. Both of these men taught that polygamy was God ordained and yet both of these men made references to the Bible wherein it is written that a man should be married to one woman only. Joseph Smith originally taught that a man was to be married to one wife only (Book of Mormon, Jacob 2:27, and Jacob 3:5; also Doctrine and Covenants, section 49:16). Later, he wrote that a man could have more than one wife (Doctrine and Covenants, section 132: 61,62). Smith created his own laws –a cover for adultery.
    According to the Qur’an, Muhammad married a six year old child and then “consumated the marriage” when she was nine years old –a cover for a pedophile.
    If Canada is going to have freedom of religion, then Canadian laws would have to be free from God’s laws, but what is the worth of a religion that is free from God’s laws? If religious freedom reigns, can I create a new religion that gives me the right to marry my dog and have her for a tax deduction? A ridiculous thought I know, but what is freedom of religion? (Personally, I like the Bible statement about religion: Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world [James 1:27].
    Debating the constitutionality of the Canadian anti-polygamy law (which probably came from Old English Law handed down from the churches in England) is redundant when the Canadian Constitution’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms is in itself unconstitutional.
    When man invents his laws where does he get his ideas from? Why do most of us consider polygamy to be wrong? Why do Mormons and Muslims consider polygamy to be from God?
    This case about the anti-polygamy law will set a precedent in Canada. Muslims all over the world are pushing for sharia law to be instituted in the countries they immigrate to. They tried to get sharia law instituted in Ontario and even now greatly influence the Canadian Human Rights Commission. England and Holland, amongst many others, are having great difficulties because of the Muslim’s religious beliefs.
    The Canadian Constitution’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms will be powerless until the truth about religious differences is settled. Is God really supreme in Canada, or are those just words that have no meaning to Canadians?

    ******************

    Debating the polygamy law or any other law against one’s “freedom of religion” is usless until something is done about the Canadian Charter Of Rights and Freedoms, and if God is supreme, then wouldn’t “freedom of religion” be an oxymoron?

    • Mike T.

      It’s widely accepted that the preamble making God supreme has no meaningful effect. Even if it did, the specific wording of s. 2 would override the wording found in the preamble. To say that it makes a constitutional document unconstitutional is probably a bit of a stretch.

  • Chris

    Why is it we can recognize that polygamy is a sick, abusive practice that needs to be stampled out when it involves Middle Eastern Muslims but when it’s practiced by white fundamentalists in our own country, suddenly we start wringing our hands about ‘religious rights’ and ‘freedom’?

    • Mike T.

      Because they’re in the middle east and not subject to our laws.

      If you meant Middle Eastern Muslims living in Canada, I think ‘we’ do share the same concerns.

  • hosertohoosier

    I will begin by saying that I really don’t care about the “rights debate”. Ultimately rights tend to conform to utility in the long-run anyway because judges not named Bork are people with some agency. Plural marriage exists (de facto) in Canada – not just in Bountiful, and not just among Muslim immigrants, but also in the likes of Sunnyvale trailer park, Nova Scotia. The problem is that those actual and existing structures (which will exist regardless of the law) have no legal structure in which to operate. That means that, for instance, a polygamist mormon woman that wants to leave her shared husband has an extremely difficult time claiming her share of the family wealth when she does leave.

    That is, incidentally, also why I support a form of Shariah law (so long as nothing illegal is involved). This stuff happens ALREADY, but uneducated people, particularly women who are used to being submissive have nowhere to turn to in what is an informal system.

    Moreover, if you look at the reasons behind why the state recognizes marriage at all (a wise government would take the position of Joe Clark and eliminate marriage, dealing with everything through civil unions), you actually have a stronger case than that for gay marriage. So what rights/privileges does marriage entail (I am not a lawyer, so I might be wrong) both from the state and from society:
    1. Visitation rights
    2. Inheritance (if one partner dies without a will)
    3. A legal distinction that the state can use for tax policy to encourage/discourage childbirth and child-raising
    4. Transfer of state and private pensions
    5. Different treatment for various types of insurance (eg. growing up my mom was covered by my dad’s dental insurance)
    6. A legal mechanism for dissolution of marriage

    Does anybody really think that it is better for the women in Bountiful (or wherever) to not have these rights, even though they are putting in just as much to the collective good of their family as the “first wife” (to use the mormon parlance)? Legal limbo is not a place anybody wants to end up.

    As to Jason Cherniak’s point (as a lawyer shouldn’t you see legal complexity as a career opportunity), he is presuming for some reason that the marriage encompasses all those collectively married. No. If I marry Winston Blackmore, I am married to Winston Blackmore, not his other wives. If say, Peter Mansbridge wanted to marry me, and I decided to move on up, I would divorce Blackmore. In other words marriage would still be dyadic.

    To any Christians (not to mention Jews and Muslims) that have doubts about the morality of polygamy I have one word. Abraham. The man had many wives. Are you telling me Abraham is in hell? Gimme a break.

    “Why is it we can recognize that polygamy is a sick, abusive practice that needs to be stampled out when it involves Middle Eastern Muslims but when it’s practiced by white fundamentalists in our own country, suddenly we start wringing our hands about ‘religious rights’ and ‘freedom’?”

    Yeah because the 5th estate portrayed Blackmore so sympathetically, and Mormons are sooo popular.
    One of my professors recently said that he hates the boy scouts now because it is run by mormons. Two-thirds of Americans said they were not ready for a Mormon president (more than said the same 40 years ago when George Romney ran for the presidency).
    http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2006/10/two_thirds_of_a.html

    Nonetheless I think your point has something in it. The real test of whether we are tolerant and truly liberal, is not whether we are willing to accept something like gay marriage that, after all, has the support of a majority of Canadians. The real test is whether we are willing to say yes to the right of other people (18+) to do things (that affect nobody but themselves) that we think are awful, abhorrent and depraved. Every case I have ever heard against polygamy always ends up coming down to that same ugly argument of “eew”.

    • Mike T.

      To be clear, nobody has ever tried to claim family property or spousal support after the breakdown of a polygamous marriage. Although there’s nothing on the books, it’s possible some relief might be available at common law, if the situation ever arises in a legal setting.

  • Gaunilon

    Coyne is right in one respect: no criminal law is needed, only a refusal to recognize polygamy by the state.

    Coyne is wrong in all other respects. This is exactly the same issue as faced in the gay marriage debate: what is marriage for, and why should the state recognize it? f the answer is “to encourage men to stay with their mate and help raise the children” then only marriages that foster a monogamous union between a man and a woman should be so recognized. If the answer is “to encourage loving sexual unions” then not only gay marriages, but polygamous marriages qualify.

    Welcome to the slippery slope that was predicted years ago. Also, now that the debate is about polygamy, can we finally lay to rest the incessant accusation that all those who try to defend traditional marriage are homophobic bigots? If so, I think a lot of apologies are in order from the left.

    • glak from planet zork

      note to self : invent new word – polygaphile

    • Heidi Maass

      Well said, Gaunilon!

  • John Adams

    Jim Chapman needs to correct many of his statements. Simple references to scriptures results in erroneous conclusions. He cites the Bible for a man should be married to one woman only. Yet many of the prophets in the bible practiced polygamy. Clearly there were times when polygamy was acceptable in the Bible and times when it was not. The Book of Mormon reference to a man marrying only one women is incomplete. It actually states that a man should only marry one woman unless commanded by God. This is consistent with the Bible. He made similar errors with his D&C references. Thus his “evidence” that Joseph Smith created his own laws as a cover for adultery is based on erroneous interpretations of his cited scriptures.

    • Jim Chapman

      John Adams – Nowhere in the Bible does God ever tell man that it is His idea for a man to be married to more than one woman. It has always been mans choice to marry more than one woman at a time, not God’s. God allowed it, He never commands it. In fact, in the New Testament, in 1Corinthians chapter 7, you will see that Jesus’ apostle Paul recommends (not commands) that for a man to give full time to God it would be better not to be married. And Jesus himself taught the same thing in Matthew19:11,12.

      Study the Bible first, then Joseph Smith’s errors will be more evident to you.

  • derek

    Scott: In what way is polygamy illegal for main stream society? Do you know of anyone that has been charged and convicted?

    (ii) any kind of conjugal union with more than one person at the same time,
    whether or not it is by law recognized as a binding form of marriage, or

    from the criminal code. Describes quite a number of people I’ve run into over the years.

    More:

    Evidence in case of polygamy
    (2) Where an accused is charged with an offence under this section, no averment or proof of the method by which the alleged relationship was entered into, agreed to or consented to is necessary in the indictment or on the trial of the accused, nor is it necessary on the trial to prove that the persons who are alleged to have entered into the relationship had or intended to have sexual intercourse.

    From my quick reading of the law, and I’m not a lawyer, the only difference between polygamy and the not uncommon multiple partner relationships are that polygamists call themselves such.

    So a young man that shares his apartment with a couple of girls and has or doesn’t have sexual relationship, but shares expenses, over a period of time, is different in what way to these men who have similar arrangements but had a formal religious ceremony of marriage? Is the only difference the religious background? Or the fact there was a ceremony? In that case the law is applied differently based on the religion of the one charged.

    A badly written law can’t be enforced. The real question is how can the law be written when marriage and relationships are stridently personal affairs.

    Derek

  • jjg

    Look at countries that have polygamy. The women are second class citizens. It is a form of slavery and the women are treated like property.

    Its not about the polygamist’s rights but the right of the women being brainwashed and abused.

    • hosertohoosier

      And causation = correlation, right? You need to show that women in the middle east are second class citizens BECAUSE polygamy is legal. It is much more likely that given that women are considered second class citizens polygyny is more socially acceptable.

      There is nothing inherent in legalized polygamy that ensures women are treated badly.

      • jjg

        Your comment is self-defeating. The fact that polygamy is more social acceptable because women are treated like second class citizens Demonstrates that polygamy treats women like second class citizens.

        It is nothing more han legalized slavery.

        • Adrayis

          Women are not second class citizens in those countries because the men ruling those countries have always had the opinion that women are second class citizens. Not because of polygamy. Just because they exist in the same country does not mean that one causes the other. Women were treated like second class citizens in this country too, until we got the right to vote and became “persons under the law”. Did we have legal polygamy then? No. Did that save the countless women and children who were beaten to death by their husbands and fathers because it was believed to be a “man’s right” in that time period? No.

          To say that polygamy causes women to be second class citizens just proves that your opinion is biased and you aren’t looking at all the facts, in your own culture, or anyone else’s.

          • jjg

            Polygamy is a relationship where men treat the women like property and use corecion ether in the form of religion or social status.

            Socila status and polygamy go hand in hand. Look at the women in Bountiful. Do you think they can just pick their kids up and leave that situation?

        • Adrayis

          There’s no “edit post” link that I found, so I appologize, I’ll need to make another comment, as I forgot to add something I’d like to address here.

          In monogamous relationships and polygamist relationships, yes, absolutely, there is abuse and horrible things that happen. But that is not the fault of polygamy. Yes, there are horrible polygamists who have forced under-age children into marriage and sex. And there are horrible monogamous people who have done the same. Yes, there are horrible people who have used polygamy to sexually abuse women and children. There are horrible people who have done the same in monogamous relationships. And yes, there are people who have committed adultry in both monogamous and polygamist relationships and it hurts everyone involved. Polygamy is not legalized slavery. If you don’t want to be in a polygamist relationship, then don’t. No one has said that we’d like polygamy to replace monogamy completely, or even that we’re fighting to have every marriage we’d enter into legally recognized.

          But you know, it’d be really nice to be able to have the lifestyle I want, with the people I want, without fear of the government, when no one is getting hurt.

          We already have laws in place to deal with the sex offenders, the abusers and the other horrible people that go out and do their best to hurt other people. That isn’t what polygamy is about.

          Polygamy is about knowing yourself, and your partners, and having enough love to have a larger family. It’s about work. You think keeping one wife or husband is hard, try two. Or three. It’s damn hard work and it’s a hell of a lot of communication.

          There are a ton of women who have left Mormon communes because they did not agree with that lifestyle, and there are a ton more women who are fighting to get into the commune. Some people prefer to only have sex with people that have the same colour skin they have. Some people prefer to only date people who have a different colour of skin than they have. Some people prefer to love only people of the same gender and some people prefer to love only people of the opposite gender. So why is it so wrong to love more than one person at a time?

          Ask yourself, why is this so wrong, when no one’s getting hurt, no one’s being forced to do anything they don’t want to do, and aren’t comfortable doing, and when everyone involved is in a healthy, happy relationship? What makes this so wrong?

  • Mike T.

    Whenever Andrew Coyne says “The issue is not X”, the issue is usually x (see his writings on the Russia/Georgia conflict for another example).

  • http://www.antisectes.net roger gonnet

    It’s a ridiculous debate to try to mix two very different things: polygamy and fidelity. Kids need to be really protected, women need also, and polygamy does not protect neither.

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  • duane

    “hide behind some “religious Right” or “religious freedom” as they claim, to do and act as they like. with impunity!”

    In thise case, these so-called “cult” leaders openly state that they are living with multiple partners and presumably having sex with them, so what is it that they are hiding? If “it” is being “hidden”, how would you know anyway? There are men and women all over the US and Canada who engage in these types of multiple conjugal relationships, is it any different just because they are Mormons? Crimes such as forced marriages, rape, and child abuse are covered under existing statutes.

    As far as the legal issues go, if a partner decides to leave the relationship and contest property, the courts who may hear such cases will figure it out…that’s what lawyers and judges are for.

  • Bert

    All religion-and I mean all religion is bunk. It been in place for 2-3000 years to control the msses and the masses have been feasting on it the whole while. Man has never had the intestinal fortitude to depend on himself only to go thru life. He has always needed a crutch. So in conclusion religion is a crutch.

    • Gaunilon

      Dude, judging from your diction I’m thinking you need an intellectual crutch a lot more than I do. Of the two of us, guess which one is religious? Think really, really hard. This may be a challenge for you.

  • Adrayis

    I’ve read the article online, I’ve read it in hard copy, and I’ve read the comments posted. There are a few that I’d like to address.

    hosertohoosier (love the name, btw :D ) says: “Does anybody really think that it is better for the women in Bountiful (or wherever) to not have these rights, even though they are putting in just as much to the collective good of their family as the “first wife” (to use the mormon parlance)? Legal limbo is not a place anybody wants to end up.”

    Absolutely not. Those women should have those rights, and it’s not very hard to get them those rights either. For example:

    1. Visitation rights
    - Assuming this is meant after a relationship has broken up, this is easily handled. There’s not really any reason to change the way it’s done right now, though it’d be nice if family law wasn’t so biased for the mother.. I’ve seen too many mothers that shouldn’t be anywhere near a child lately who have manipulated the courts into taking the children from the father, who is the stable parent. But that’s another debate for another day.

    2. Inheritance (if one partner dies without a will)
    - Right now, as far as I’m aware, if there’s no will, the estate is handed over to the surviving spouse to divide as necessary. In this case, the easiest way I can think of that’s fair would be just to divide the estate’s worth as necessary. When it comes down to actual items, then however it’s handled now should probably work. There have been a ton of cases, I’m sure, where a man had lost his wife to divorce, then remarried and neglected to change his will and when he died, they fought like cats over the estate.

    3. A legal distinction that the state can use for tax policy to encourage/discourage childbirth and child-raising
    - I’m not exactly sure what you mean by encourage/discourage childbirth and child-raising, but I do know if you’re in a relationship, common law or married, you’re supposed to file your taxes together. That can be handled by doing it for the household rather than the couple, shouldn’t it? And is it even necessary to force people into doing their taxes together?

    4. Transfer of state and private pensions
    - This one and #5 are a little trickier but I’m sure people who know more about them are able to come up with solutions.

    5. Different treatment for various types of insurance (eg. growing up my mom was covered by my dad’s dental insurance)

    6. A legal mechanism for dissolution of marriage
    - I see no reason why a divorce between two people, whether they have relationships on the side or not, wouldn’t do the job?

    Derek says: “From my quick reading of the law, and I’m not a lawyer, the only difference between polygamy and the not uncommon multiple partner relationships are that polygamists call themselves such.

    So a young man that shares his apartment with a couple of girls and has or doesn’t have sexual relationship, but shares expenses, over a period of time, is different in what way to these men who have similar arrangements but had a formal religious ceremony of marriage? Is the only difference the religious background? Or the fact there was a ceremony? In that case the law is applied differently based on the religion of the one charged.

    A badly written law can’t be enforced. The real question is how can the law be written when marriage and relationships are stridently personal affairs.”

    For the first part, in the law’s eyes, there is no difference between a polygamist who openly names themselves such and people who live together in an open/multiple relationship.

    The man who lives with the girls may or may not be different from the ones that had a marriage. It all depends on if they enter into a ‘conjugal union”. If he has sex with one of them, no problems, he’s considered different because he’s in a mongamous relationship with a roommate. If he has sex with both of them, at the same time or one after the other, then he is breaking the law.

    Unfortunately, with this law, it doesn’t distinguish between marriage and relationships. In your example, man A and women B and C are all living together. If he marries one of them and just has sex with the other, he’s committed the same crime as if he had married both of them. Also, anyone who knows about what they’re doing can be charged likewise.

    jjg says: “Look at countries that have polygamy. The women are second class citizens. It is a form of slavery and the women are treated like property.

    Its not about the polygamist’s rights but the right of the women being brainwashed and abused.”

    I have to disagree here. Yes, in the middle east, women are treated like second class citizens. I don’t know enough about the mormon culture to know if they are there or not, but just because they’re treated like that there wouldn’t mean that all people practicing multiple relationships would, or do, treat their women that way. Do some research on the internet, there are hundreds of thousands of people who have adopted this way of life, not for religious reasons, just because it makes them happy. And they don’t treat their women like that. They don’t stone them to death, they don’t force them to cover themselves or not to speak to anyone but her husband. Open your eyes and learn about what you’re condemning it before you condemn it. After all, I’m sure your parents told you that you’d like your vegetables if you ate them, and you didn’t believe them, did you? It’s a simple example, but it works.

    roger gonnet says: “It’s a ridiculous debate to try to mix two very different things: polygamy and fidelity. Kids need to be really protected, women need also, and polygamy does not protect neither.”

    Again, this is a case of doing your research. There’s no proof that polygamy does not protect women or children. In fact, with more than one person in the house, it’s another adult they can trust, to look up to for guidance, it’s another income helping the finances (and in these rough times, that’s not a bad thing) and in the case of the younger children, it’s another pair of eyes watching them at the beach, or in the park, or wherever the family goes.

    We’re taught as children that you grow up, find someone to love, get married to them and have children of our own. That we need to nurture and protect those children, from harm from themselves and from harm from others. We’re taught that we need to teach these children to be fine, upstanding citizens of their own right when they grow up and that if we do that, then we succeed as a parent.

    So tell me, what’s the difference between a woman who loves two men, lives with them happily and raises their children together, the 3 of them working as a unit, and a man and a woman/man and a man/woman and a woman doing the exact same thing?

    The fact of the matter is, monogamy does NOT protect women and chhttp://blog.macleans.ca/2009/02/18/why-we-don%e2%80%99t-need-to-make-polygamy-a-crime/ildren. PEOPLE protect women and children. And the men too. People forget that sometimes men need to be protected just as much. There are still women being beaten to death, there are children being beaten to death and there are men being beaten to death. These are sad, unfortunate things and the people doing these horrible things absolutely need to be punnished by law. Whether or not the man, OR the woman, has a second, third or fourth or more relationship doesn’t factor in to the equation. A man, or a woman, will hurt the people around them if they are abusive people. Being monogamous isn’t going to protect the women and children any more than being polygamist.

    As for fidelity, that’s something completely different. And you CAN have someone cheat on their spouses when they’re in a multiple relationship situation. By the modern and western interpretation of polygamy (used outside of religious circles) if a partner has sex with someone outside of their partners without consent from the others, that’s the same as a monogamous person cheating on their partner. It’s all about communication and consent.

    Really, it’s not necessary to legalize multiple marriage, just decriminalize it. If every single part of what makes up a relationship is legal and right and morally good except if they do it with someone else at the same time, then the act in itself should not be a crime.

    The most often reason I’ve heard to keep polygamy a crime is because of rape, forced marriage and child abuse. I ask each and every one of you who is against polygamy to do some research and find out just how often rape, forced marriage and child abuse happens in a monogamous home. It’s happening now, it’s happened before and it’ll continue to happen.

    The logical standpoint would be, charge and punnish the abusers, whether they have more than one marriage or not. It has no bearing on the abuse being done.

    • hosertohoosier

      ” Really, it’s not necessary to legalize multiple marriage, just decriminalize it. If every single part of what makes up a relationship is legal and right and morally good except if they do it with someone else at the same time, then the act in itself should not be a crime.”

      I can certainly buy that argument, and I accept that you can do a lot of what marriage entails through contract law (though it always handy when those contracts are bundled as something called marriage). What I question is whether a common perception of “ickiness” is a sufficient reason to prevent the government from recognizing a relationship between consenting adults.

      Of course I am one of the few people who is down with gays AND mormons (other than Newfies, they are the friendliest people I’ve met).

      • Adrayis

        I’m glad to see you say that. I don’t believe that people seeing it as ‘icky’ is a good enough reason either. And it’s something I whole-heartedly support. But I do know a lot of people are put off by it and I do try to make other people happy and compromise. ;)
        And you can add one more to that list, though I’m from Nova Scotia origionally. :D

  • Mike T.

    Know what would solve this dillemma?

    A single, federal securities regulator.

  • Just visiting

    I think that it can be shown that men engaging in polygamy causes societal harm that has nothing to do with either religious or moral issues.

    Given the fact that males and females are generally born in even numbers, polygamy can only result in many young single men end up having to live their lives without opposite-sex partners.

    This imbalance would not only be unfair to these young men, but more importantly, a large class of men who cannot find partners is not likely to be a happy group. The likely result of the spread of polygamy would thus be high levels social instability and unrest, which would be harmful to the wellbeing of society as a whole.

    This in itself ought to be a sufficient argument to allow for banning polygamy even if Charter rights might otherwise apply.

    - JV

    • Adrayis

      I’ve been checking out census information since I read this this morning, and I haven’t found anything that says that men and women are born in equal numbers. In fact, I’m finding that it’s actually quite the opposite. The women outnumber the men. Funny that… I guess it’s not going to be such a disruption at all then?

      And really, that’s a thin ice reason for not allowing it. People said the same thing about gay men and women, that it would take all the eligible partners from one gender or the other, and the ones left without a partner would be sad and depressed and it would create all kinds of strife. The fact of the matter is, there are people who are going to be in relationships and there are people who aren’t.

      All a relationship depends on is if the people involved want it and have someone around them who they’re willing to enter into that kind of thing with. Take the want out of the equation, and you have someone who’s alone. Take the people out of the equation and you have people who are alone. Some are happy about it, some are depressed about it and some just don’t care about it at all. Gay, lesbian or poly, it’s not going to change that.

  • Hermina Jansen

    Quite apart from religion, Canadians need to take a dispassionate look at the effects of polygamy on a culture. The way we organize our social arrangements is a matter of interest not only to the individuals involved, but to the state. That this is so, is clear from observing the results of polygamy in those cultures where it is practiced.

    Polygamy favours older men who usually have more power and money and younger women who usually still have their youthful good looks. Younger men are at an obvious disadvantage when seeking a spouse. In polygamous cultures there is usually a surplus of young, uncommitted men, a situation that breeds violence and anti-social behaviour. The marginalizing effect on older women is obvious.

    There is, to my knowledge, no successful, democratic society where polygamy is widely practiced. There are plenty of examples to the contrary.

    Only one statistic is relevant. If there were 28 (alleged number of Blackmore wives) girls born to every boy, polygamy would make sense. There is a reason why the ratio is about one to one. Let’s use our minds.

    The Canadian government doesn’t need to ask Canadians how we “feel” about this issue. How we “feel” is irrelevent. The only thing that matters is what effect the practice of polygamy will have, should that door be opened. I trust the Canadian government isn’t sitting in Ottawa wringing its hands wondering who it should please, but that it is preparing for a vigorous defence of western culture.

    Western civilization’s response to polygamy is and should remain, “Been there. Done that. It didn’t work.”

    On this one Andrew is, unfortunately, not looking at the big picture.

    HJ

    • Adrayis

      “Polygamy favours older men who usually have more power and money and younger women who usually still have their youthful good looks. Younger men are at an obvious disadvantage when seeking a spouse. In polygamous cultures there is usually a surplus of young, uncommitted men, a situation that breeds violence and anti-social behaviour. The marginalizing effect on older women is obvious.”

      And quite obviously you have only looked at polygamy practiced in Mormon and East Indian cultures and not how it’s practiced in western cultures, right under your very nose. Where polygamy is practiced in western cultures *outside of any religious practice* you are quite wrong on this.

      “There is, to my knowledge, no successful, democratic society where polygamy is widely practiced. There are plenty of examples to the contrary.”

      Please, do your research before stating such things as again, you are quite wrong. Multiple relationships are practiced quite successfully in Canada and the U.S., without people having these relationships because of religious reasons. The only difference is that they are kept from living with each other because of a clearly biased law.

      “Only one statistic is relevant. If there were 28 (alleged number of Blackmore wives) girls born to every boy, polygamy would make sense. There is a reason why the ratio is about one to one. Let’s use our minds.”

      Again, HJ, it comes down to research, and I’ve already pointed out in other comments (I’m assuming you didn’t read them) that women actually do outnumber men. Have for a long time.

      “The Canadian government doesn’t need to ask Canadians how we “feel” about this issue. How we “feel” is irrelevent. The only thing that matters is what effect the practice of polygamy will have, should that door be opened. I trust the Canadian government isn’t sitting in Ottawa wringing its hands wondering who it should please, but that it is preparing for a vigorous defence of western culture.”

      I have to agree that the Canadian government doesn’t need to ask how we feel about this issue. Because that’s right. What they should be doing is asking themselves why, if every single thing that makes up polygamy is already perfectly legal, then why is the title, the name, the fact that it’s more than one person making it illegal? And that answer is simple. Because people are biased. I guarentee you, if this was about murder or anything else, people would be in an uproar. If the Canadian government said “we can try, convict and sentence you to jail for murder without any proof during any of the proceedings” the Canadian people would revolt. But it’s perfectly acceptable for someone to be tried, convicted and sentenced to jail for polygamy? Come on…

      As for the “defense of Western culture”, I ask you. Did you know that polygamy and multiple relationships have been going on in western culture for as long as western culture was around, and that it spread in popularity with the internet, when other people realized that they weren’t the only ones who viewed relationships that way? How have these people ruined western culture? How are they attacking western culture? By being happy? Oh good Lord, take these people away and hang them at once! How dare they be happy!!

      Now you know how your comment on the “defense of western culture” sounds.

      “Western civilization’s response to polygamy is and should remain, “Been there. Done that. It didn’t work.””

      Yes, it does. I’ve seen it work myself.

      “On this one Andrew is, unfortunately, not looking at the big picture.”

      I disagree, I don’t believe you are looking at the big picture.

      • Hermina Jansen

        Obviously I have no control over what you and others do in the privacy of your homes and I don’t wish to. Your private arrangements or affairs are irrelevant. I am speaking of cultures where polygamy is not just socially acceptable but given status in law by the state. I reiterate, you cannot name one successful, democratic country where polygamy is legal and broadly practiced as such, because there is no such state. The invocation of Abraham and other ancients just proves what I was saying that polygamy was a part of our barbarian past. Modern societies have all left the practice behind in the legal sense and have been more successful for doing so.

        As to your claim regarding there being an imbalance in birth ratios. Come on, Adrayis, you do your homework. There may be a slightly larger number of women born but it is within the 1%-2% points range, a virtual tie, and certainly not enough of a difference to warrant a complete change in our cultural norms. The widespread commitment of one man to one woman and to the children they bring into the world, in other words, monogamy, isn’t the only reason western civ has been successful, but, it is one of many reasons.

        Adrayis, it may work for you in a private way and in your own mind but that doesn’t mean it’s legalization will be in the best interest of our country.

        HJ

        • Adrayis

          You make my point exactly Hermina. You have no control over what myself and others do in the privacy of our home. Yet this law clearly contradicts that. If this law was about anything other than polygamy, people would be attacking Ottawa for having the right to send someone to jail on *suspicion*, and not require proof at all. The fact of the matter is Hermina, you don’t have a country that treats women as equals that also legalizes polygamy because our government has stepped into our homes and dictated how we can live. How would you like it if I came to your home and said your religion disgusts me and there’s no way you should have the legal right to practice it? How would you like it if I came to your home and said that your partner is an affront to nature and you’ll never be with that person again, because the law will not allow it.

          Take off your shoes, put your bias aside and think. Actually think. Don’t think with your bias, think with your logic. Is it logical that everything that makes up a healthy polygamous relationship is completely legal *until* the partners start living together? Is it logical to say that you can be as happy as you want, until the government says that you can’t be happy anymore? Take a good look at the law itself and compare it to all the other laws that we have. There is no other law that you can be convicted and sentenced for ON SUSPICION only, and no one has to provide any proof thereof. There is no other law where just knowing about the situation can get you charged AS IF YOU HAD COMMITTED THE CRIME, it’s all accessory. This does not make sense and it needs to be fixed.

  • Judy Gouin

    This debate has one fundamental flaw. The word “polygamy” is gender-neutral, but the cultural underpinnings of the debate are not. If the roles are reversed, i.e.,”A woman can have sex with as many men as she likes. But she can’t marry more than one.Whatever you may have heard, the case of Wendy Blackmore and Jane Oler, the fundamentalist Mormon preachers from Bountiful, B.C. whose polygamy case goes to trial next week, is not about religious freedom… It certainly isn’t about whether the two women are guilty of the crime of polygamy under Section 293 of the Criminal Code,” and “A woman may have sex with as many men (or women) as she likes, serially or coincidentally, individually or all at once. She may conceive children with any or all of them. She can marry one of them, and have sex with the rest. She can live together with all of them and their children, so long as they don’t marry or have sex. All of these things she can do without being charged with a crime. The only thing the law prohibits her from doing is marrying (or living in “conjugal union” with) more than one man at the same time. “ and “Or if there is evidence that some of the husbands were forced into marriage, or were underage—neither consenting, that is, nor adults—then prosecute these crimes under the relevant statutes. “,etc.

    The only reason why this issue is being debated is that it re-presents in a contemporary setting the age-old question of how or why a man can have many wives. It is not about how or why a woman can legally have many husbands, particularly if the husbands are much younger. Such a situation would immediately be interpreted as concubinage, and sexually exploitive. I doubt very much that the same voices would be raised in its defence, as religious freedom, consenting adult relationships, or equality under the Charter. This debate is taking place because women are still considered to be natural vessels, bearers of fruit, and nurturers of men and babies. Were they considered, by the society at large, to be equal to men in their right to self-determination, this entire discussion would be moot.

    • Adrayis

      I can guarantee you that should it be decriminalized or even legalized, there are a lot of women who would take advantage of the situation. The only reason people don’t is because we’re taught, from a very young age “one man, one woman”. Now, we’re taught “one man, one man. one woman, one woman. one man, one woman.” But still only one.

      I ask you, why is loving more than one person (the emotion, not the act) wrong?

      I’m a woman myself, and I’ve seen more women with more men in multiple relationships rather than men with more women.

  • Mike T.

    We recognize people as adults with a great deal of freedom to live their life as we please. We can try to give women in the situation you describe the means to end these relationships and carry on independently (well, Conservatives don’t…) but we can’t amke their choices for them.

    • Terry

      Umm… why don’t we conservatives?

      I’m a Catholic and I don’t believe in divorce because I can no get a new wife than I can get a new mother. It is a sacramental way of adopting someone into your family for a specific role, similar to adopting a child. I can have a bad wife just as I can have a bad mother, but my vows have been made. So if my wife divorces me I will not be remarried unless I leave behind my faith.

      However, I don’t mind providing tax dollars to help a woman out of a physically or sexually abusive situation and giving her independent means, any more than I mind providing tax dollars to pull a child out of an abusive home.

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