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	<title>Comments on: Let&#039;s play Cut the Granting Councils!</title>
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	<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/</link>
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		<title>By: soemonewhoknows</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88355</link>
		<dc:creator>soemonewhoknows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88355</guid>
		<description>Why, yes, it is precisly what SSHRC is and has been suggesting - all disciplies can do a study related to business and therefore be eligible to recieve these funds. It might, in fact, be the only way SSHRC can move that money out the door without lapsing it - business faculties are not well know for their research cajones and collectively cannot hope to even apply for all the funding available, let along receive it based on recommendations by peer reviewers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why, yes, it is precisly what SSHRC is and has been suggesting &#8211; all disciplies can do a study related to business and therefore be eligible to recieve these funds. It might, in fact, be the only way SSHRC can move that money out the door without lapsing it &#8211; business faculties are not well know for their research cajones and collectively cannot hope to even apply for all the funding available, let along receive it based on recommendations by peer reviewers.</p>
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		<title>By: soemonewhoknows</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88354</link>
		<dc:creator>soemonewhoknows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88354</guid>
		<description>Speaking of trends: look at who was cut in past Tory budgets: I believe it was 2006 that the Tory&#039;s cut the operational funding for the Law Reform Commission of Canada, such that the LCC had to close whop. IN that same budget the Canadian Policy Research Networks were cut significantly as was the status of Women Canada. The one thing in common for these three groups was the fact that they were effective in producing research that went against their ideological agenda: the LCC promoted alternative sentencing - such as sentencing circles, mediation and conflict resolution - meanwhile the Tories were promoting hiring more police officers and building more prisons; the CPR provided slid and balanced research results on the costs of various policy options which were and are not in favour of the neoCon ideologies; status of women promoted equality, worked on issues related to the trafficking of women and children, were sympathetic to sex trade workers - all things that the Tory neocon ideology found difficult (it fat, their connection to Real Women [not] and more recent attacks on employment equity demonstrates that the Tories believe that women should be at home, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

My take on these cuts and others has been an attempt to eliminate competition in the marketplace of ideas. Harper is well known to be waging a communications war - e.g., look at the so called bloggers on the Globe and Mail boards that are taking speaking notes from the Conservative web site to obfuscate discussion on issues of importance to our society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of trends: look at who was cut in past Tory budgets: I believe it was 2006 that the Tory&#8217;s cut the operational funding for the Law Reform Commission of Canada, such that the LCC had to close whop. IN that same budget the Canadian Policy Research Networks were cut significantly as was the status of Women Canada. The one thing in common for these three groups was the fact that they were effective in producing research that went against their ideological agenda: the LCC promoted alternative sentencing &#8211; such as sentencing circles, mediation and conflict resolution &#8211; meanwhile the Tories were promoting hiring more police officers and building more prisons; the CPR provided slid and balanced research results on the costs of various policy options which were and are not in favour of the neoCon ideologies; status of women promoted equality, worked on issues related to the trafficking of women and children, were sympathetic to sex trade workers &#8211; all things that the Tory neocon ideology found difficult (it fat, their connection to Real Women [not] and more recent attacks on employment equity demonstrates that the Tories believe that women should be at home, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.</p>
<p>My take on these cuts and others has been an attempt to eliminate competition in the marketplace of ideas. Harper is well known to be waging a communications war &#8211; e.g., look at the so called bloggers on the Globe and Mail boards that are taking speaking notes from the Conservative web site to obfuscate discussion on issues of importance to our society.</p>
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		<title>By: soemonewhoknows</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88353</link>
		<dc:creator>soemonewhoknows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88353</guid>
		<description>While I can sympathize with your concern, the wording of all funding from each of the three councils have always had that weasle clause of - &quot;subject to funds being available. &quot; While the current economic situationis differnet that it was even a year ago, my guess is that your current funding is safe. This is especialy so since the Tory&#039;s have been quite clear that cuts identified by the councils shoud not be in the form of scholarships.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I can sympathize with your concern, the wording of all funding from each of the three councils have always had that weasle clause of &#8211; &#8220;subject to funds being available. &#8221; While the current economic situationis differnet that it was even a year ago, my guess is that your current funding is safe. This is especialy so since the Tory&#8217;s have been quite clear that cuts identified by the councils shoud not be in the form of scholarships.</p>
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		<title>By: soemonewhoknows</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88352</link>
		<dc:creator>soemonewhoknows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88352</guid>
		<description>Tom Kierans being a &#039;good guy&#039; is no excuse for Gaffield sharing responsibilty/blame - Kierans position is not a paid one; Gaffield&#039;s is and he should be the sole person on the hot seat. It goes with the job and the salary. I have met and spoken with Kierans and am not convinced he is as &#039;good&#039; as you and he wish to project.

SSHRC&#039;s health porogram was added by former president Marc Renaud - a sociologist of health - during the growing pains of the CIHR&#039;s early days when it appeared that SS&amp;H researchers were not getting the CIHR grants quickly enough (following significant pressure from the research community).  It shoud never had been made a standard program but should have been a temporary stop over as the CIHR worked out its bugs. As such the funds for it were never earmarked for transfer to the CIHR. If Gaffield had made this change before Strategic Review, the loss might have been different.

That said, it&#039;s not like the CIHR doesn&#039;t already receive 3-4 times as much as SSHRC and significantly more than NSERC. Moreover, many health researchers, SS&amp;H based or the Disease and Body-parts types get funding from the USA and have done so for decades.  The health research industry will see this as a bliip. Those SS&amp;H health researchers that for one reason or another have not already moved over to the CIHR, which is mandated to support them (and should given the reformation of the MRC to CIHR was justified in so doing), can only blame themselves for their delay and the dificulties this may bring to their work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom Kierans being a &#8216;good guy&#8217; is no excuse for Gaffield sharing responsibilty/blame &#8211; Kierans position is not a paid one; Gaffield&#8217;s is and he should be the sole person on the hot seat. It goes with the job and the salary. I have met and spoken with Kierans and am not convinced he is as &#8216;good&#8217; as you and he wish to project.</p>
<p>SSHRC&#8217;s health porogram was added by former president Marc Renaud &#8211; a sociologist of health &#8211; during the growing pains of the CIHR&#8217;s early days when it appeared that SS&amp;H researchers were not getting the CIHR grants quickly enough (following significant pressure from the research community).  It shoud never had been made a standard program but should have been a temporary stop over as the CIHR worked out its bugs. As such the funds for it were never earmarked for transfer to the CIHR. If Gaffield had made this change before Strategic Review, the loss might have been different.</p>
<p>That said, it&#8217;s not like the CIHR doesn&#8217;t already receive 3-4 times as much as SSHRC and significantly more than NSERC. Moreover, many health researchers, SS&amp;H based or the Disease and Body-parts types get funding from the USA and have done so for decades.  The health research industry will see this as a bliip. Those SS&amp;H health researchers that for one reason or another have not already moved over to the CIHR, which is mandated to support them (and should given the reformation of the MRC to CIHR was justified in so doing), can only blame themselves for their delay and the dificulties this may bring to their work.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Kiss</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88351</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Kiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88351</guid>
		<description>Phil&#039;s initial point was exactly right. I&#039;m inclined to support the cuts to the RTS.  But I also found SSHRC&#039;s response to the &quot;business-degrees&quot; clause a little bit cheeky. Are they saying that basically every degree they support is somehow business related (which, in a broad sense, is the case) and that they will carry on &quot;business as usual?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil&#8217;s initial point was exactly right. I&#8217;m inclined to support the cuts to the RTS.  But I also found SSHRC&#8217;s response to the &#8220;business-degrees&#8221; clause a little bit cheeky. Are they saying that basically every degree they support is somehow business related (which, in a broad sense, is the case) and that they will carry on &#8220;business as usual?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Travis</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88350</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 02:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88350</guid>
		<description>As a graduate student, it makes me very nervous to hear about these cuts for obvious reasons - my funding from CIHR is worded such that it can be taken away if they no longer have the funds, and I would almost certainly have to leave my degree (and research project) unfinished.  I have heard that there is funding for labs, but not for the people who staff them, which is not something you want to hear as a young researcher.  Thanks for bringing this up and please continue to post on the subject in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a graduate student, it makes me very nervous to hear about these cuts for obvious reasons &#8211; my funding from CIHR is worded such that it can be taken away if they no longer have the funds, and I would almost certainly have to leave my degree (and research project) unfinished.  I have heard that there is funding for labs, but not for the people who staff them, which is not something you want to hear as a young researcher.  Thanks for bringing this up and please continue to post on the subject in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88349</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 23:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88349</guid>
		<description>someonewhoknows:  Tom Kierans is a good guy, that&#039;s why....

CIHR did not get off lightly, their cuts are the same percentage as the rest.  What is troubling is that the $11 million of money removed from SSHRC because it was &#039;health&quot; research was not transferred to CIHR, it was cut.  There was no double-dipping so this is a net loss to the health research sector.

CIHR has cut its team programs (in an age where teams are widely seen as effective ways to tackle multi-disciplinary problems). This is a significant loss (why not cut one of the 13 Institutes?). It&#039;s also less than straightforward to end by saying that the budget of CIHR has increased when $7 million is for 400 x 1 year MSc scholarships  and the rolled up decreases in years 2 and 3 are not counted.

The bottom line is that the government mandated cuts to the tricouncils at the same time that the Obama administration added $10 billion to the NIH budget. The enormous contrast defies even the most adept spin-artist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>someonewhoknows:  Tom Kierans is a good guy, that&#8217;s why&#8230;.</p>
<p>CIHR did not get off lightly, their cuts are the same percentage as the rest.  What is troubling is that the $11 million of money removed from SSHRC because it was &#8216;health&#8221; research was not transferred to CIHR, it was cut.  There was no double-dipping so this is a net loss to the health research sector.</p>
<p>CIHR has cut its team programs (in an age where teams are widely seen as effective ways to tackle multi-disciplinary problems). This is a significant loss (why not cut one of the 13 Institutes?). It&#8217;s also less than straightforward to end by saying that the budget of CIHR has increased when $7 million is for 400 x 1 year MSc scholarships  and the rolled up decreases in years 2 and 3 are not counted.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that the government mandated cuts to the tricouncils at the same time that the Obama administration added $10 billion to the NIH budget. The enormous contrast defies even the most adept spin-artist.</p>
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		<title>By: Critical Reasoning</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88348</link>
		<dc:creator>Critical Reasoning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88348</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your very informative comment!  Very revealing, especially your points about Gaffield.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your very informative comment!  Very revealing, especially your points about Gaffield.</p>
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		<title>By: soemonewhoknows</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88347</link>
		<dc:creator>soemonewhoknows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88347</guid>
		<description>As someone worked extensively with all three councils, I can say that I am not at all surprised at the tenor of these letters. First of all, most of these inexperienced presidents were appointed by the current government for the same reasons that, for instance, Gaddfield, was not appointed by the Martin liberals - a lack of vision and a track record of downsizing (i.e., they are not strong leaders and will do as told). Fortier has not been terribly effective mainly due to severe health issues.  Beaudet was just appointed so I have nothing to say about him.

Let me give some for instances: Gaffield took the whole first year of his appointment to come up with this strategic plan, which was basically to say SSHRC is going to do less of the same. It&#039;s a shame that he is such a good Tory toady that he turned his and SSHRC council&#039;s collective backs on the vision and leadership demonstrated by Marc Renaud. Now SSHRC has little choice but to do less.

Another example, Gaffield and co. knew at least 12 months in advance that SSHRC would be subjected to Strategic Review in 2008-2009. Yet they hid their heads in the sand, by all accounts, and refused to manage the situation until it was too late. So what did he do when the cuts came? 1) He killed off the RTS, which he was already on record saying it was not SSHRC&#039;s job to ensure that researchers had the time they needed; 2) he killed off the health research funding - which should have never been put in place once the CIHR was up and running (Renaud was not perfect) - but it took Gaffield over 3 years to do so.  Gaffield does not justify the businesses strings to the Tory funding increases (BTW, all Tory funding increases were met with Tory downsizing) not because he cannot (the least experienced SSHRC program officer could do this) but because he wants not to - perhaps he is fearful he might loose that very significant increase to his pension that accompanies a DM level salary as compared to a full prof. at the U of Ottawa.

In the case of the CIHR and NSERC, the cuts announced are on the whole to programs likely considered to be of marginal utility by their respective council members. The Intellectual Property Mobilization program is of greater importance to NSERC and CIHR strategically than it is to SSHRC (who never increased their funding of this partnered program over $150K per year and only very, very reluctantly (a pre-Gaffield decision); meanwhile NSERC and CIHR collectively invested some $15M). This is a program that tries to help universities take inventions to market - just the sort of thing that the 2008 Federal Science and Technology Strategy called for (there&#039;s some irony in this cut, then). The problem with IPM is that it basically provided business grants to university intellectual property offices (IPOs), many of which have been in existence for over 25 years and have very little to show for it (academics don’t necessarily make good business people – nor public service senior managers).  My guess is that the funding needed for the IPOs will be found elsewhere - perhaps an Industry Canada program (the NSERC officer that managed the program moved to Industry Canada three years ago to set up something of this nature).

NSERC&#039;s Centres for Research in Youth, Science Teaching and Learning was a brilliant idea, when first stolen by a NSERC VP, that would bring together people from faculties of education and mathematics to &#039;discover&#039; new pedagogical methods by which high school maths education could become better and encourage more students entering university to follow this discipline. The original beauty of this program was the desire to target Aboriginal secondary school students. Unfortunately this innovative aspect of the program was lost and never implemented.

One can understand the discomfort ‘hard’ science NSERC council members would have with this program - just as one can imagine the discomfort of the Disease and Body-parts CIHR council members have when it comes to dividing up their funding-pie to support social determinates of health research, for instance, which fortunately seems to have been overlooked in the CIHR&#039;s response to Strategic Review. But then given that health concerns are almost always one of the top three of public opinion issues and given how easy it is to justify health research as opposed to, say the importance of literary studies, it is not too surprising that the CIHR appears to have gotten off fairly easy.

Much more can be said but one thing seems to me to be an overriding theme - the lack of leadership shown by people like Gaffield and Fortier. BTW, why did Gaffield find it necessary to hide behind Tom Kierans&#039; name in his letter to his &#039;colleagues&#039;? By all accounts, (alphabetically, hierarchy) his should have been first and probably solely present, like was the case for Fortier and Beaudet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone worked extensively with all three councils, I can say that I am not at all surprised at the tenor of these letters. First of all, most of these inexperienced presidents were appointed by the current government for the same reasons that, for instance, Gaddfield, was not appointed by the Martin liberals &#8211; a lack of vision and a track record of downsizing (i.e., they are not strong leaders and will do as told). Fortier has not been terribly effective mainly due to severe health issues.  Beaudet was just appointed so I have nothing to say about him.</p>
<p>Let me give some for instances: Gaffield took the whole first year of his appointment to come up with this strategic plan, which was basically to say SSHRC is going to do less of the same. It&#8217;s a shame that he is such a good Tory toady that he turned his and SSHRC council&#8217;s collective backs on the vision and leadership demonstrated by Marc Renaud. Now SSHRC has little choice but to do less.</p>
<p>Another example, Gaffield and co. knew at least 12 months in advance that SSHRC would be subjected to Strategic Review in 2008-2009. Yet they hid their heads in the sand, by all accounts, and refused to manage the situation until it was too late. So what did he do when the cuts came? 1) He killed off the RTS, which he was already on record saying it was not SSHRC&#8217;s job to ensure that researchers had the time they needed; 2) he killed off the health research funding &#8211; which should have never been put in place once the CIHR was up and running (Renaud was not perfect) &#8211; but it took Gaffield over 3 years to do so.  Gaffield does not justify the businesses strings to the Tory funding increases (BTW, all Tory funding increases were met with Tory downsizing) not because he cannot (the least experienced SSHRC program officer could do this) but because he wants not to &#8211; perhaps he is fearful he might loose that very significant increase to his pension that accompanies a DM level salary as compared to a full prof. at the U of Ottawa.</p>
<p>In the case of the CIHR and NSERC, the cuts announced are on the whole to programs likely considered to be of marginal utility by their respective council members. The Intellectual Property Mobilization program is of greater importance to NSERC and CIHR strategically than it is to SSHRC (who never increased their funding of this partnered program over $150K per year and only very, very reluctantly (a pre-Gaffield decision); meanwhile NSERC and CIHR collectively invested some $15M). This is a program that tries to help universities take inventions to market &#8211; just the sort of thing that the 2008 Federal Science and Technology Strategy called for (there&#8217;s some irony in this cut, then). The problem with IPM is that it basically provided business grants to university intellectual property offices (IPOs), many of which have been in existence for over 25 years and have very little to show for it (academics don’t necessarily make good business people – nor public service senior managers).  My guess is that the funding needed for the IPOs will be found elsewhere &#8211; perhaps an Industry Canada program (the NSERC officer that managed the program moved to Industry Canada three years ago to set up something of this nature).</p>
<p>NSERC&#8217;s Centres for Research in Youth, Science Teaching and Learning was a brilliant idea, when first stolen by a NSERC VP, that would bring together people from faculties of education and mathematics to &#8216;discover&#8217; new pedagogical methods by which high school maths education could become better and encourage more students entering university to follow this discipline. The original beauty of this program was the desire to target Aboriginal secondary school students. Unfortunately this innovative aspect of the program was lost and never implemented.</p>
<p>One can understand the discomfort ‘hard’ science NSERC council members would have with this program &#8211; just as one can imagine the discomfort of the Disease and Body-parts CIHR council members have when it comes to dividing up their funding-pie to support social determinates of health research, for instance, which fortunately seems to have been overlooked in the CIHR&#8217;s response to Strategic Review. But then given that health concerns are almost always one of the top three of public opinion issues and given how easy it is to justify health research as opposed to, say the importance of literary studies, it is not too surprising that the CIHR appears to have gotten off fairly easy.</p>
<p>Much more can be said but one thing seems to me to be an overriding theme &#8211; the lack of leadership shown by people like Gaffield and Fortier. BTW, why did Gaffield find it necessary to hide behind Tom Kierans&#8217; name in his letter to his &#8216;colleagues&#8217;? By all accounts, (alphabetically, hierarchy) his should have been first and probably solely present, like was the case for Fortier and Beaudet.</p>
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		<title>By: Stewart</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88346</link>
		<dc:creator>Stewart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88346</guid>
		<description>The Major Resource Support program, (while being almost invisible) is extremely important.  It funds access to the Canadian Light Source, the Chalk River Neutron Facility, TRIUMF for example.  The restricted funds means that many of the nice shiny pieces of equipment obtained from CFI will not be as well utilized as they might have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Major Resource Support program, (while being almost invisible) is extremely important.  It funds access to the Canadian Light Source, the Chalk River Neutron Facility, TRIUMF for example.  The restricted funds means that many of the nice shiny pieces of equipment obtained from CFI will not be as well utilized as they might have.</p>
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		<title>By: Stewart</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88345</link>
		<dc:creator>Stewart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88345</guid>
		<description>Peer-reviewed research has always been subsidised by the taxpayer.  Contract research that is 100% privately funded does not require peer review.  (Peer review is intended to ensure value to the taxpayer.)

Why does the taxpayer do this?  Economically it is clear that those juristictions that use taxpayer&#039;s monies to fund state of the art pre-competitive research gain a disporportionate share of the new industry as it emerges.  Aside from economics, a great university enhances the value of the surrounding community.

As an aside, the teaching versus research issue is a little old-fashioned.  Current trends at major universities are to train undergraduates to appreciate and understand new research results as they are being generated.  McMaster was ahead of the curve on this one, first with the medical school and later engineering but Toronto, Waterloo and Guelph all have good programs based on this premise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peer-reviewed research has always been subsidised by the taxpayer.  Contract research that is 100% privately funded does not require peer review.  (Peer review is intended to ensure value to the taxpayer.)</p>
<p>Why does the taxpayer do this?  Economically it is clear that those juristictions that use taxpayer&#8217;s monies to fund state of the art pre-competitive research gain a disporportionate share of the new industry as it emerges.  Aside from economics, a great university enhances the value of the surrounding community.</p>
<p>As an aside, the teaching versus research issue is a little old-fashioned.  Current trends at major universities are to train undergraduates to appreciate and understand new research results as they are being generated.  McMaster was ahead of the curve on this one, first with the medical school and later engineering but Toronto, Waterloo and Guelph all have good programs based on this premise.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88344</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88344</guid>
		<description>&quot;Since when is it the taxpayers’ duty to subsidise peer-reviewed research?&quot;

Since NSERC, SSHRC, and CIHR have existed.  Are you saying these programs should be cut to zero?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Since when is it the taxpayers’ duty to subsidise peer-reviewed research?&#8221;</p>
<p>Since NSERC, SSHRC, and CIHR have existed.  Are you saying these programs should be cut to zero?</p>
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		<title>By: J@ck Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88343</link>
		<dc:creator>J@ck Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88343</guid>
		<description>I mean, let&#039;s put the money into non-university (or university-affiliated) research institutes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mean, let&#8217;s put the money into non-university (or university-affiliated) research institutes.</p>
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		<title>By: J@ck Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88342</link>
		<dc:creator>J@ck Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88342</guid>
		<description>But if you improved the quality of undergraduate teaching then . . . undergraduate teaching would accomplish more.  The more you neglect it the worse it will get, until eventually the graduate students are all in remedial undergrad education and you&#039;re &quot;teaching&quot; the post-docs.

Seriously, if you want to do nothing but research you should get a private sector job.  Since when is it the taxpayers&#039; duty to subsidise peer-reviewed research?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But if you improved the quality of undergraduate teaching then . . . undergraduate teaching would accomplish more.  The more you neglect it the worse it will get, until eventually the graduate students are all in remedial undergrad education and you&#8217;re &#8220;teaching&#8221; the post-docs.</p>
<p>Seriously, if you want to do nothing but research you should get a private sector job.  Since when is it the taxpayers&#8217; duty to subsidise peer-reviewed research?</p>
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		<title>By: kc</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88341</link>
		<dc:creator>kc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88341</guid>
		<description>I would think most of the hardcore have the word &quot;cuts&quot; bookmarked. [ or whatever you do with computer thingies] Dolts like me just keep the radio on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would think most of the hardcore have the word &#8220;cuts&#8221; bookmarked. [ or whatever you do with computer thingies] Dolts like me just keep the radio on.</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88340</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88340</guid>
		<description>I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the thing is that there actually isn&#039;t a shortage of undergrads who want to go to grad school. Just the opposite, there are too many undergrads who want to go to grad school without realizing that (in the current job market) its going to be a dead end. So I don&#039;t think that we do too badly as far as inspiring students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the thing is that there actually isn&#8217;t a shortage of undergrads who want to go to grad school. Just the opposite, there are too many undergrads who want to go to grad school without realizing that (in the current job market) its going to be a dead end. So I don&#8217;t think that we do too badly as far as inspiring students.</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88339</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88339</guid>
		<description>Teaching accomplishes the least when it involves teaching undergraduates. It accomplishes the most when it involves teaching graduate students. But if you&#039;re going to have anything to teach graduates then you need to have done research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teaching accomplishes the least when it involves teaching undergraduates. It accomplishes the most when it involves teaching graduate students. But if you&#8217;re going to have anything to teach graduates then you need to have done research.</p>
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		<title>By: BKN</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88338</link>
		<dc:creator>BKN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88338</guid>
		<description>As someone with two decades&#039; experience of undergraduate teaching and changing fads in academic administration let me ask:
Where are the researchers of tomorrow supposed to come from? Who is supposed to teach undergrads to think critically, to write clearly, to do thorough and honest research, to understand the basic tools and norms of a given discipline? Who is going to communicate to undergrads the results of the research robert vaunts?

But robert is right, in the sense that the modern Canadian university considers these sorts of questions irrelevant. It assumes that somebody, somewhere else will do all these things, and the university&#039;s grad programs will cream off the best students, of which there will be plenty to go around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone with two decades&#8217; experience of undergraduate teaching and changing fads in academic administration let me ask:<br />
Where are the researchers of tomorrow supposed to come from? Who is supposed to teach undergrads to think critically, to write clearly, to do thorough and honest research, to understand the basic tools and norms of a given discipline? Who is going to communicate to undergrads the results of the research robert vaunts?</p>
<p>But robert is right, in the sense that the modern Canadian university considers these sorts of questions irrelevant. It assumes that somebody, somewhere else will do all these things, and the university&#8217;s grad programs will cream off the best students, of which there will be plenty to go around.</p>
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		<title>By: Ti-Guy</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88337</link>
		<dc:creator>Ti-Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88337</guid>
		<description>Yeah.  Too many big words for &quot;conservatives.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah.  Too many big words for &#8220;conservatives.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88336</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88336</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never really understood why professors are so desperate to get out of teaching.  I have to admit it&#039;s not the most fun part of my week, but it&#039;s not awful, and my research isn&#039;t so important that a 2-1 load will cause any great harm to Canada.

Richard Feynman once said that he liked teaching because it made him feel like he was accomplishing something, especially when his research was going badly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never really understood why professors are so desperate to get out of teaching.  I have to admit it&#8217;s not the most fun part of my week, but it&#8217;s not awful, and my research isn&#8217;t so important that a 2-1 load will cause any great harm to Canada.</p>
<p>Richard Feynman once said that he liked teaching because it made him feel like he was accomplishing something, especially when his research was going badly.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88335</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88335</guid>
		<description>Of the NSERC funding being cut, I&#039;ve never personally known anyone who has received any of those grants.  So the impact probably won&#039;t be enormous.

Nonetheless, Discovery grants -- probably NSERC&#039;s most important program, and one that benefits virtually every science and engineering department in the country -- have been in a consistent decline over the past few years.  I&#039;ve heard that this is a result of a growing number of professors chasing a static pool of funds, rather than any cuts per se.  However, it would have been far nicer to see the money from these fringe programs being rededicated towards Discovery, or some similar broad-based funding program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of the NSERC funding being cut, I&#8217;ve never personally known anyone who has received any of those grants.  So the impact probably won&#8217;t be enormous.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, Discovery grants &#8212; probably NSERC&#8217;s most important program, and one that benefits virtually every science and engineering department in the country &#8212; have been in a consistent decline over the past few years.  I&#8217;ve heard that this is a result of a growing number of professors chasing a static pool of funds, rather than any cuts per se.  However, it would have been far nicer to see the money from these fringe programs being rededicated towards Discovery, or some similar broad-based funding program.</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88334</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88334</guid>
		<description>&quot;Whether this is good or bad depends on what you think the purpose of universities is. If you think universities primarily exist to do research, then it’s bad. If you think universities are primarily there to educate students, then it’s good.&quot;

If you think that the best way for universities to educate students is by teaching undergraduates, rather than producing research, then you&#039;re irrelevant to the modern university, which means that you&#039;re helping to make Canadian universities irrelevant.

The SSHRC letter doesn&#039;t try ti justify studies that aren&#039;t business-oriented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Whether this is good or bad depends on what you think the purpose of universities is. If you think universities primarily exist to do research, then it’s bad. If you think universities are primarily there to educate students, then it’s good.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you think that the best way for universities to educate students is by teaching undergraduates, rather than producing research, then you&#8217;re irrelevant to the modern university, which means that you&#8217;re helping to make Canadian universities irrelevant.</p>
<p>The SSHRC letter doesn&#8217;t try ti justify studies that aren&#8217;t business-oriented.</p>
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		<title>By: jwl</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88333</link>
		<dc:creator>jwl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88333</guid>
		<description>What a disappointment. Looking at the title of this post I thought, finally, some red-meat for us conservatives but no such luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a disappointment. Looking at the title of this post I thought, finally, some red-meat for us conservatives but no such luck.</p>
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		<title>By: Ummm...</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88332</link>
		<dc:creator>Ummm...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88332</guid>
		<description>I heard something about CISTI (the Canada Institute for Scientific and Technical Information being decimated too.

It does seem a trend, doesn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard something about CISTI (the Canada Institute for Scientific and Technical Information being decimated too.</p>
<p>It does seem a trend, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/23/lets-play-cut-the-granting-councils/comment-page-1/#comment-88331</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.macleans.ca/?p=38265#comment-88331</guid>
		<description>The cuts to the RTS are the most regrettable for profs, but good for undergraduate students.

RTSs meant that the SSHRC winners had reduced course loads, which in turn meant that part-time profs were hired to teach the courses that the SSHRC should have been teaching.

That was good for the SSHRC winners, since it gave them extra time to write and research. But it was bad for undergrad students since the best profs (in terms of research potential, at least) were no longer teaching as many undergrad courses.

Now SSHRC will need to convince cash-strapped universities to buy-out their courses for them and hire sessionals at full-cost. It&#039;s unlikely that the universities will be keen on that in many cases.

So, the SSHRC winners will write fewer articles and books, but they&#039;ll be teaching more undergrad courses.

Whether this is good or bad depends on what you think the purpose of universities is. If you think universities primarily exist to do research, then it&#039;s bad. If you think universities are primarily there to educate students, then it&#039;s good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cuts to the RTS are the most regrettable for profs, but good for undergraduate students.</p>
<p>RTSs meant that the SSHRC winners had reduced course loads, which in turn meant that part-time profs were hired to teach the courses that the SSHRC should have been teaching.</p>
<p>That was good for the SSHRC winners, since it gave them extra time to write and research. But it was bad for undergrad students since the best profs (in terms of research potential, at least) were no longer teaching as many undergrad courses.</p>
<p>Now SSHRC will need to convince cash-strapped universities to buy-out their courses for them and hire sessionals at full-cost. It&#8217;s unlikely that the universities will be keen on that in many cases.</p>
<p>So, the SSHRC winners will write fewer articles and books, but they&#8217;ll be teaching more undergrad courses.</p>
<p>Whether this is good or bad depends on what you think the purpose of universities is. If you think universities primarily exist to do research, then it&#8217;s bad. If you think universities are primarily there to educate students, then it&#8217;s good.</p>
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