We’re in the fast lane to polygamy

Remember same-sex-marriage proponents rolling their eyes at talk of what might be next?

by Mark Steyn on Thursday, April 9, 2009 11:10am - 266 Comments

We’re in the fast lane to polygamyWhat’s my line on legalized polygamy? Oh, I pretty much said it all back in 2004, in a column for Ezra Levant’s Western Standard. Headline: “It’s Closer Than They Think.”

Well, a mere half-decade down the slippery slope and here we are, with the marrying kind of Bountiful, B.C., headed for the Supreme Court of Canada. Five years ago, proponents of same-sex marriage went into full you-cannot-be-serious eye-rolling mode when naysayers warned that polygamy would be next. As I wrote in that Western Standard piece:

“Gay marriage, they assure us, is the merest amendment to traditional marriage, and once we’ve done that we’ll pull up the drawbridge.”

Claire L’Heureux-Dubé, the former Supreme Court justice, remains confident the drawbridge is firmly up. “Marriage is a union of two people, period,” she said in Quebec the other day. But it used to be a union of one man and one woman, period. And, if that period got kicked down the page to accommodate a comma and a subordinate clause, why shouldn’t it get kicked again? If the sex of the participants is no longer relevant, why should the number be?

Ah, well, says Mme L’Heureux-Dubé, polygamists don’t enjoy the same societal acceptance as gays. “I don’t see a parade of polygamists on Ste-Catherine Street,” observes the great jurist, marshalling the same dazzling quality of argument she used back in her days as the Supreme Court’s most outspoken activist on gay issues. A decade ago, she and Justice Michael Kirby, Australia’s most senior gay judge, traipsed from one gay-rights confab to another like the Elizabeth Taylor and Roddy McDowall of the international judicial cocktail circuit. But perhaps, back home in Canada, her ladyship ought to expand her excursions beyond the Ste-Catherine Street gay pride march. If you check in with, ahem, certain cultural communities in Canada, you will find polygamy not just “accepted” but government funded. It was confirmed last year that in the province of Ontario thousands of polygamous men receive welfare payments for each of their wives. There are many more takers for polygamy than there ever will be for gay marriage.

The Western world already accords de facto recognition to polygamy, in all kinds of areas. A couple of years back, Mohammed Anwar was stopped by police in Glasgow, Scotland, for doing 64 mph in a 30 mph zone. That would normally be enough for automatic disqualification from driving. But, appearing at Airdrie Sheriff’s Court, Mr. Anwar testified that he needed his car because he has one wife in Glasgow and another in Motherwell and he sleeps with them on alternate nights. Sheriff John C. Morris was persuaded by the Driving While Polygamous argument and ruled that the defendant could keep his driver’s licence. Congratulations! Make it one for my baby, one for my other baby, and one more for the road. Like Mr. Anwar, society is in the fast lane to second wives.

While Mme L’Heureux-Dubé’s objections may be sincere, the Government of Canada gives the distinct impression of going through the motions. Its objection to polygamy rests on the great wobbling blancmange of “Canadian values.” Polygamy is supposedly incompatible with “da Canadian value,” as M Chrétien used to call it. But surely da Canadian value is that we have no values. We value all values. To do otherwise would be profoundly un-Canadian. To be sure, there are sometimes theoretical contradictions between, say, women’s rights, on the one hand, and, on the other, arranged cousin marriages. But that’s all the more reason to give the likes of Chief Commissar Barbara Hall and her Ontario “Human Rights” Commission ever more powers to regulate ever more aspects of life in this blessed utopia. One assumes a so-called “conservative” government is standing its ground on the eternally shifting, whispering sands of “Canadian values” only as a little comic relief before the inevitable Supreme Court ruling.

Meanwhile, my esteemed colleague Andrew Coyne, doing his Mister Reasonable shtick, has dismissed the whole polygamy thing as an absurd distraction by the flailing Tories: “We may be spending at all-time record levels. We may be running $40-billion deficits, and bailing out auto companies, and ditching across-the-board tax cuts in favour of dozens of little social-engineering tax credits. We may have abandoned everything we ever stood for on Afghanistan, on Quebec, on corporate welfare, on foreign investment . . . But we’ll still protect you from a lot of imaginary threats like polygamy.”

Call me a hopeless Pollyanna, but I’d like to think a functioning G7 government could enact a coherent economic policy while still finding time to oppose polygamy. Still, to take Andrew’s broader argument, he’s in favour of decriminalization of plural marriage: after all, we let a chap screw as many women as he wants. What’s the big deal if he wants to marry them all? But in Canada nothing occurs in isolation. Take those multi-spousal welfare benefits in Ontario. In fairness to your big-time polygamist in Yemen or Waziristan, he has to do it on his own dime. If he wants to get the taxpayer to pick up the tab, he has to hop a flight to Toronto. East is east and west is west, and these days when the twain meet you usually get the worst of both worlds, of which government-funded polygamy would appear to be a near parodic example. But, in a Canada where common-law relationships already enjoy all but full equality with marriage, it’s easy to foresee the court decisions that would follow—on benefits, on “human rights” cases, on family-reunification immigration hearings. An insignificant number of gay couples would have greased the skids for a far larger cohort of heterosexual triples and quadruples. Indeed, for some polygamy proponents, that’s the point. A couple of years back, the Toronto Star quoted Martha Bailey advocating polygamy on economic grounds: “Stressing ‘the multicultural nature of Canadian society,’ Bailey claims that Canada has an urgent practical need for more Muslim immigrants. If Canada can just ‘expand the pool of applicants,’ says Bailey, it just may win ‘the global competition for highly skilled immigrants.’ ”

Bookmark and Share
  • M@

    So let’s see if I’ve got this straight:

    1. Anecdote about polygamy in Scotland (by a MUSLIM!!!1!)
    2. ???
    3. Collapse of morals, values
    4. Collapse of Western Civilization (TM)

    The great thing is, you can substitute almost anything in for #1. Bonus points if it’s about brown people.

  • Marshall Gill

    Hal is the poster child for the stupid. Did this make sense to anyone else? Well, for those of us with a thing called “intellectual honesty” of course it made sense, what part didn’t you get?

    “Homophobic ranting”? Didn’t you read the article? Of course not, how could you be bothered. Instead, since it didn’t proclaim the beauty of so-called same-sex marriage, you attacked it as “homophobic”.

    Is that an argument? I say I am opposed to redefining marriage to include more than one man and woman, INCLUDING polygamy, and all you can do is respond “you fear the fudgepackers”? No, I actually fear those who will drop a wall upon you for being “gay”. The same people will be happy to kill me for not obeying “Allah”.

    The point of this article, which is spot on, is that while the “gay community” is doing everything in it’s power to force acceptance of their beliefs it will indeed backfire upon them in the worst way. Mark Steyn doesn’t advocate the killing of homosexuals and indeed attacks those who do as being evil. I would suggest that it is strange to so desire the destruction of self, but that is the basis for homosexuality, anyway, isn’t it? As he correctly said, there are a lot more heterosexuals who wish to redefine marriage than there are homosexuals. Considering the fact that these same people believe in killing homosexuals you would think it might give you pause. But, no, you can never stop telling everyone (your father) how much you hate him, and by extension, yourself. Drag people into your bedroom (by defining yourself according to your sexual practices) and then proclaim “stay out of my bedroom!”

    I guess I should have simply said, “If you have an argument make it. No reason for your heterophobic ranting” or “seek professional help”.

    • Hal

      I’m a heterosexual female, but thanks for assuming.

      It’s interesting that you construe the unwillingness to just kill off homosexuals and disapproval of those who might like to as a shining example of tolerance. They should all be grateful for all the intellectual honesty.
      Is not the roundabout point of this writer’s article: if we let the gays in, imagine who’ll they’ll bring along with them? I think we need to consider who constructed your particular definition of marriage, and upon whose authority. If the answer is God, I would hope you’re not expecting everyone to accept your personal beliefs as their own.

      You state that homosexuality is essentially the destruction of self. I would suggest instead that desiring the propogation of the human species beyond its capacity to support its children is self-destructive, and look how we’re doing with that.

      The problem you seem to have is with “these people” of the Muslim faith, and not polygamy. I’m not advocating violence or violation of human rights in the name of any god. I am stating that marriage has never been the sacred institution some would like to believe belongs to them and them alone. It is a notion that has always existed and functioned in various forms, including polygamy; it has continually been changed and adapted, and we’ve yet to forget how to have babies or love our families no matter the form it takes.

      I fear the advocates of undefined ‘Family Values’, and those who can use a word like ‘fudgepackers’ in the course of debate without feeling totally ashamed.

  • http://prairiewrangler.wordpress.com/ Olaf

    Does it bother anyone else that Steyn doesn’t, even once, deign to suggest why polygamy should be considered such a moral threat to Western civilization? He kinda just assumes it from the outset. I think that’s the point we should be considering here, not how the question came about (hint: the gays!) or whether it is likely to come to pass (hint: I don’t know), but whether it’s inherently A Bad Thing. I’ve never seen a convincing conclusion to the sentence “Polygamy is inherently a bad thing because…”

    • Wotcher?

      It’s not that long ago that same-sex marriage was considered a moral threat to Western civilization, largely with the same lack of discussion of its inherent “badness”.

      • sf

        If all marriages were gay marriages it would be a threat.

        • Maggie’s Farmboy

          Wow. Do you think there is a risk of that happening? Should I be identifying some good looking, high earner now do get ahead of the rush? What do I tell my wife? What about the fact that I don’t want to have sex with men? Will that be a problem?

          • sf

            “What about the fact that I don’t want to have sex with men?”

            Are you a homophobe?

    • sf

      Well, I think it’s a women’s rights issue. There are not many polygamous marriages where a wife has multiple husbands.

      I guess if one thinks of husbands as sperm-providers, then multiple wives is fine. But if one expects a husband to offer time and commitment to their wives and children, it’s rather difficult to satisfy two or more wives at the same time.

  • BL

    I certainly agree that the legal implications with regards, inheritance, children, and government benefits etc… are uncertain at best. Not to mention infinitely more complex than any two person pairing.

    Look what consenting adults do is their own damn business. Personally I feel there is a stronger argument for legalizing/decriminalizing this behavior. It could certainly help bring an end to some of the nastier aspects of some polygamous societies, mainly the abuse of underage women. Current law has been resoundingly ineffective, and has only served to drive the behavior to dangerous places.

  • SAB

    The only valid argument against Polygamy that Steyn makes is that there may be additional costs to the taxpayer. It’s not clear to me if this is actually true – but if so, I’d change the rules so this is no longer the case. If he believes we shoud outlaw adultery or common law polygamy then at least he’d be consistent.

    I think polygamy is creepy and I am morally opposed to it.

    But I can’t think of a good reason that consenting adults in a free society should be barred from this by the state.

    • wafer

      Where do you draw the line then. There are many things that a small segment of society believe in and think should be legalized. Sounds like its pretty well wide open from your point of view.

      • SAB

        Where do you draw it? Consenting adults seems like a good place.

        • wafer

          Yeh, that’s what I thought you’d say.

    • sf

      Marriage is defined by the state. If the state was out of the marriage business, I’d agree with you. But while it is in the marriage business, I think the definition of marriage should not be changing with the wind. Soon we’ll have marriages between dogs and cats.

      • Wotcher?

        Have you ever tried to get an adult dog or cat to consent to marriage?

    • Matt W.

      That’s the problem with issues like these.

      I think most of us get the feeling about polygamy that “that ain’t right” but if asked to make a legal argument against it we can’t, particularly in light of the flexible definition of marriage. As many have said before if gender is no limit then why should number be?

      Given that all the examples of polygamy that we’ve seen to date seem to come from, er, ahem… less progressive cultures, maybe we should just follow our instincts on this one and keep it illegal.

  • Jancis M. Andrews

    Can anyone explain to me why polygamy will be legalized when 1: on 18 October 2002 Canada ratified the protocol on the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) and is LEGALLY OBLIGATED TO UPHOLD IT? CEDAW states that polygamy contravenes women’s equality rights and also harms their children. Also 2: on 19 May 1976 Canada ratified the protocol on the International Covenant on Civil and Politcal Rights and is LEGALLY OBLIGATED TO UPHOLD IT. ICCPR states everyone has the freedom to practise their religion, BUT ONLY TO THAT POINT WHERE THOSE PRACTICES START TO CONTRAVENE THE RIGHTS OF ANOTHER PERSON; As well, 3: sections 15 and 28 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantee women equality with men. Result, women: 3, polygamists: 0.

    If the judges of Canada’s Supreme Court decide that these three documents can be ignored, and that women’s guaranteeed equality rights must be downgraded in order to accommodate the desire of polygamist males to collect women as concubines in harems, then Canada not only will have returned women to the status of chattels, but it will also mean that Their Honours will have altered the very DNA of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms itself. And Canadian women are not going to accept the dismissal of their guaranteed equality rights without putting up one helluva fight. See you at the Human Rights Court at the Hague!

    • Bill Simpson

      Coyne made the very valid point that making polygamy legal grants particular rights to the participants. Currently, none of the ex-spouses related to the current Bountiful case have any explicit rights as former “spouses”. Make it legal, give them rights and then help them enforce them. Everything else in the way of abuse that polygamy brings with it is also found in monogamy – that can be dealt with under current law.

      There will also be the “desire of polygamist males to collect women as concubines in harems”, and there will also always be some women happy to participate in this. We just to need to look after the ones who are not, and to ensure that the children involved have the same protections as other children.

      • Mike T.

        It’s worth noting the case at issue won’t give them the rights you discuss. The only issue currently scheduled to be before the courts is whether you can jail polygamists, not what specific family law rights they’re entitled to.

        • Bill Simpson

          Indeed, but the first step is to accept that polygamy is not criminal behavior.

  • Nick D

    So because our government cannot deal with polygamy, we must blame the gays. OK that is a strawman argument…

    The government would have had to eventually deal with this issue. It has nothing to do with gays. If gays weren’t permitted to marry, polygamists would still marry.

    There were polygamist sects living in Canada before there was legalized gay marriage.

  • Pingback: Chris Selley's Full Pundit: Battle of the flip-floppers - News and Opinion Blog of Blogs

  • Pingback: I don’t like polygamy because… er… the gays! « The Prairie Wrangler

  • John.K

    Chris Selley demonstrates the intellectual laziness of Steyn:

    “Remember when smart, prescient people like Mark Steyn told you gay marriage would lead to legalized polygamy and stupid, myopic people like Andrew Coyne told you it was bollocks? Well, “a mere half-decade down the slippery slope and here we are,” Steyn crows in Maclean’s, “with the marrying kind of Bountiful, B.C., headed for the Supreme Court of Canada.” Stupid, myopic people might argue that it was B.C. Attorney General Wally Oppal, and not a bunch of militant homosexuals, who laid the charges against Winston Blackmore and Jim Oler that will likely wind up in the nation’s highest court. But amazingly, Steyn doesn’t even mention the fact they’ve been prosecuted for practicing the very lifestyle he alleges Canada is too weak and multicultural and bereft of values to prohibit. Or… maybe not so amazingly, really, since that would have done serious damage to his argument.”

    I hope Macleans pays Steyn for these columns relative to his peers… less. Way less.

    • GreatWallsofFire

      The “intellectual laziness” is in missing the essential point of Steyn’s piece, which is that the deconstruction of marriage at the behest of gay rights activities DID result in a slippery slope, n/w/s the assurances of the likes of Coyne/L’hereaux Dube/et al it would not do so. The comment of L’hereau Dube referenced by Steyn – that marriage won’t be redefined to include polygamy because there are no crowds marching in the street in support of polygamny, as there were during the heady days of the gay “marriage” debates, is especially revealing. It implies that, in coming to their decisions to impose gay “marriage” on Canadians, the likes of L’heareaux Dube were more suade by the cacophany raised by the miniscule percentage of the population that actively supported marriage deconstruction in favour of gay rights than by the substantial evidence that doing so would lead to far greater harm than good (exhibit A being the social effects of liberalized divorce laws). Whereas L’heureaux Dube may find the silence of polygamy advocates deafening, the decisions she and her ilk authored speak loud and clear as precedents to her judicial successors.

      It’s true that there are no crowds marching in favour of polygamy, but unfortunately for those

  • Lord Kitchener’s Own

    It’s HILARIOUS, as Selley points out, that Steyn’s arguing here about how somehow Canada’s lost the will/desire to fight against polygamy, as evidenced by the fact that the issue of polygamy will likely soon come up at the Supreme Court, and yet he COMPLETELY IGNORES the fact that the reason it will likely be before the Supreme Court soon is that a B.C. prosecutor is fighting against polygamy by prosecuting people for it.

    However THIS is even funnier: “Marriage is a union of two people, period,” she said in Quebec the other day. But it used to be a union of one man and one woman, period. I love how opponents of SSM always point to this mythical (and totally nonexistent) time in the past when marriage was “defined” solely as a union between one man and one woman. Bollocks. First off, “traditional” marriage was polygamous marriage, if you want to get technical. The only reason Adam didn’t have multiple wives is because he only had Eve. Biblically, pretty much as soon as it was possible men started having multiple wives. More recently, in the tradition of the Christian Church in a time before celibate clergy, there was a long time when ONLY members of the clergy were required to get “married” as we think of it today. Laypeople would have no sort of “marriage” as we would view it in modern times, the sacrament of “marriage” was only for priests. Proponents of something they call “the ‘traditional’ definition of marriage” are truly twisting themselves into pretzel-like shapes to have their notion make any sense. Look only far enough back in time to when monogamous heterosexual marriage was considered “traditional”, and no further, and ignore any group, or culture, or religion within that time frame that had a different view of marriage. So “traditional marriage” becomes the tradition of this group, during this timeframe, and no other group, or no other timeframe counts.

    It’s easy to argue against something when you get to define the terms, and then pretend that your definitions have some deeper, more eternal meaning than anyone else’s. It’s also, imho, obnoxiously dishonest.

    • Terry

      Hur? Marriage was only for priests? Where are you getting this from?

      There were different ways to receive the sacrament of marriage, but it was always a sacrament. The church always pushed for proper recognition of marriage as well, pushing for “in manu” (in the hand) marriage rather than common marriage or concubinage. They were even willing to recognize and affirm marriages between people of different social classes, something that was radical in late classical Rome.

      You are confusing a lack of pretty ceremony and the lack of the need of a priest as the lack of a recognition of marriage. It still had to be public, witnessed, and recognized by the Church. Just because you don’t need a priest for a baptism, doesn’t mean the baptism isn’t valid or can’t be recognized.

      • Bill Simpson

        Yes – indeed, marriage was just for the priests. Missionaries always made this their first step. The control of the sacrament of marriage was a key step in solidifying the position of the Christian religion. This is why excommunication was such a powerful weapon. If every significant social or cultural event had to be recognized by the church, then it made it very hard for anyone to resist it.

        This is why the “Civil Marriage” has become significant in the discussion of same sex marriage; it is a recognition that there are two sides to this: one,the religious view of marriage and how it fits in with any particular religion, and two – the civil contract of marriage and how the state recognizes that for legal, tax and related purposes.

        • Terry

          No, I’m telling you, there was indeed marriage recognized by the Church as a sacrament from classical antiquity. There is no basis for saying that marriage was “just for priests”. At the very least, I’d like to see some sources.

          I think people are genuinely confused about sacraments and marriage. The role of a priest or deacon is not to perform the sacrament of marriage, but merely as a witness. The sacrament of Holy Matrimony is a sacrament the bride and groom administer to each other. So you don’t need a liturgy or a mass or anything other than the witnessed recitation of the vows.

          For example, when a married couple converts to Catholicism they usually don’t remarry unless there are doubts as to whether their marriage is licit (ie. there is no record or witness to attest to it). The sacramental nature of marriage is expressed by the belief that you have become kin, ie. I can no more divorce and replace my wife than I can divorce and replace my mother.

          This idea that the Church only recognized marriage between a priest and his wife is way out of left field for me. I’ve never heard of it before, and I’m sure I would have.

        • Ted S.

          Bill, dude, I’m open to your argument, but it seems to be contradicting itself. If only the priests got married, then that doesn’t “solidify” the position of the Christian religion over the laity after all. Saying marriage was only for priests is the opposite of saying that “every significant social or cultural event had to be recognized by the church”.

          So was that a typo or is the argument just bollocks?

          • sf

            It was bollocks.

      • Lord Kitchener’s Own

        Well, I didn’t say that there was a time when marriage was only for priests, I said, “ONLY members of the clergy were required to get “married” as we think of it today”.

        Certainly from a religious standpoint , marriage as a sacrament is really just a religious commitment between two people, not requiring any specific “ceremony” or official “seal” or institutional acknowledgment. This is what I meant by “as we think of it today”. At one point, only priests were required to “get married” in the modern sense of a ceremony with some official institutional acknowledgment and stamp of approval from above. In that sense, and under those “rules” any debate over SSM becomes moot, as marriage is nothing more (or, perhaps more accurately nothing LESS) than a sacred commitment between two people, and the involvement of the Church as institution is irrelevant. However, of course, what we’re talking about when we discuss marriage laws in the 21st Century is not the sacrament of marriage, but the legal institution of marriage sanctified by “the State”. In early Christianity “the State” and “the Church” were essentially one in the same, and for much of that time, only priests required marriages that had some official “sanction” from the Church. Today, one isn’t considered “married” in a legal sense unless one’s marriage is recognized by the state, so in a secular sense EVERYONE requires some authority to “recognize” their marriage.

        If we still lived in a world where no “higher authority” (i.e. no priest, or Church, or Church official, or state or state official) were required to make one’s marriage “legitimate” then arguments over who was, and who was not married would be moot. There’d be no difference between people who were “formally” married and those who weren’t, as the formal recognition would be immaterial.

        However we don’t live in that time anymore.

        Of course, the more important point is that it’s not about how any Church defines marriage at all. That’s the wondrous thing about the separation of Church and State. Even if the Church (any church, or temple, or synagogue or mosque…) had an unwavering and completely unchanged definition for what they considered a “legitimate” marriage, going back to the origins of the universe, it’s immaterial. Because how the state defines marriage is a completely separate issue from how a religious institution defines marriage. The fact that the Church and State were once one implies no necessity for the modern State to bow to the Church’s definition of marriage, no matter how long standing.

        • Terry

          “Certainly from a religious standpoint , marriage as a sacrament is really just a religious commitment between two people, not requiring any specific “ceremony” or official “seal” or institutional acknowledgment.”

          Again, I’m afraid you are wrong here. The Church still required of its believers that the marriage be public and witnessed, and viewed it as a sacrament. So in other words, you still needed that official seal of institutional acknowledgment as you put it, even if you were married under the spousal system. It wasn’t simply a private or purely secular matter.

          Now it is fine if you want to say that the state isn’t beholden to the Church for a definition of marriage, but you have to stay on the right side of history.

        • sf

          Certainly from a religious standpoint , marriage as a sacrament is really just a religious commitment between two people, not requiring any specific “ceremony” or official “seal” or institutional acknowledgment.

          That statement is the farthest thing from the truth. It’s the exact opposite of what any priest would say. Marriage in religious circles is a commitment to your partner and to God, a lasting commitment that cannot be broken. It certainly requires a sacramental ceremony and institutional seal. The sacraments cannot be administered without the proper guidance of the church. Marriages are recorded by the church and records are kept, and even today, churches require that couples attend marriage preparation courses. It is a very serious matter to the church.

    • Wayne

      according to very old traditional hebrew teachings Adam had another wife! indeed a first wife – who after refusing to lie beneath him (she wanted to be on top) made Adam go to god and complain and ask for a divorce which God granted (the first wifes name was Lilith) .. interesting and very old story …

  • Pingback: Post hoc ergo propter Bush - News and Opinion Blog of Blogs

  • Critical Reasoning

    There is a big difference between decriminalizing polygamy and legal recognition of polygamous unions. The former is possible but the latter most certainly isn’t.

    • Terry

      Oh, why can’t the courts rule that it is against the charter of rights? The argument before for opponents of SSM was that gay men were not discriminated against because they had the same right everyone else had, to marry a woman. While in Canada we were fortunate enough to have it handled through legislation, it is certainly conceivable that a legal challenge could have struck it down. So why can’t the polygamous couples appeal to the charter? It isn’t as if the legislators who wrote the charter of rights and freedoms were expecting to enshrine gay marriage as a right when they wrote that laws wouldn’t discriminate on the basis of sex.

      • Critical Reasoning

        So why can’t the polygamous couples appeal to the charter?

        Good question. In fact, I think a polygamy appeal like the one you describe is actually being prepared. I don’t think a Charter appeal will work, however, because 90% of public opinion would be strongly against polygamous “rights”. In theory, public opinion should not sway the courts on this issue, but in practice, it does.

        • Terry

          Oh, I thought it was something interesting, like how the legislation governing the way the state recognized marriages was written. I already knew that it wouldn’t happen because people didn’t like polygamy.

          However, every season has its fashion so I think it will probably happen eventually. Maybe not within my lifetime though.

          • Critical Reasoning

            It’s probably about the way the legislation is written, too. I just don’t know enough about the legislation to comment. Also I doubt that polygamy rights will ever become a fashionable cause, even in fifty years. Polygamy is already threatened by modernity and free society, and by then the issue may cease to exist.

          • Terry

            I don’t see why it is any more threatened than it was 100 years ago.

      • Mike T.

        Anything is possible but I suspect a Charter challenge would not work to force recognition of polygamous marriage. While there is no case directly on point religious groups have had poor success in altering the definition of marriage on religious grounds, and the same sex marriage case noted that the exclusivity (two-personedness, if you will) of a gay marriage was a positive factor in evaluating if gay marriages were essentially the same as hetero ones.

  • Wayne

    Can anyone imgaine of what a divorce will cost in a ploygamous marriage – I wonder if it’s the lawyers driving all of this tuff – I wonder if someone could dig up stat’s on earned income in the leagl profession before and after allowing gay marriage – hmmm – just a question folks I am by no means homphobic ask anyone in the Pink Brigade on Salt Spring Island.

    • Critical Reasoning

      I don’t think Canada will ever “legalize” polygamous marriage – that would be ridiculous. The big question is whether polygamy should continue to be a crime.

      • Bill Simpson

        I don’t see how it can be “decriminalized” and not “legalized”. I think that makes it worse. The key goal here is surely to protect the possible (probable?) abuse and exploitation of women and their children in a polygamous marriage. We need to provide a legal framework within which the relationships work. Anything less is a fudge.

        • Critical Reasoning

          I agree, and I think that polygamy should continue to be a crime – not because polygamy is necessarily criminal, but because including it in the Criminal Code provides a handy legal tool to prevent abuses of women and children in isolated communities.

        • Mike T.

          it wouldn’t be a difficult situation to have come about. if there is no constitutional right to polygamous marriage but a constitutional ban on criminalizing it, then the state of entitlement to things like spousal support would be unknown until legislatures federally and provincially changed the laws or the issue was resolved through common law principles in court.

          • Terry

            I think that existing family law will also have a role in picking up the slack where there is no marriage law. For example, you still have paternal fiduciary responsibilities, you can claim dependents or be legal guardians of children. There are also ways to put yourself under the legal authority of another person, though that usually requires some degree of diminished capacity. So there are other laws that could be bundled together to produce a pseudo-married state.

            If polygamy becomes more common, I imagine all of these laws will be bound together and the government will simply recognize what already exists.

        • GreatWallsofFire

          “The key goal here is surely to protect the possible (probable?) abuse and exploitation of women and their children in a polygamous marriage”

          I thought we learned a few years ago that marriage has nothing to do with women and children.

      • sf

        I would have agreed with you 10 years ago, but now that same-sex marriage is legal, I think anything is possible. The way people think today, with there being no right and wrong, everything is relative, there are no traditions, I think it is possible that people will be marrying their pets someday. You can even see it in the comment here, lots of people are thinking:

        “hey, what the heck, let’s marry bunches of people, what the heck, what could be wrong with that? Doesn’t bother me! Why don’t we just let marriage become what anybody wants marriage to be. Who’s to say what I think of marriage is better than what you think of marriage. Let’s have some tolerance! Everybody can decide for themselves what their marriage will be!”

  • seaandthemountains

    Steyn, by invoking the past arguments re the link between allowing gay marriage and allowing polygamy, implicitly suggests that allowing gay marriage has led to the risk of allowing polygamy. this presupposes that the polygamists could not go to the supreme court in the absence of the gay marriage decision, which of course is total bunk.

    by publishing this dude Macleans is essentially paying Steyn to be a troll. having him spout off his ridiculous – and erroneous – arguments as a means of generating more traffic and participation on its web page.

    • lightduty

      Well, no. You see, if the courts had decided that marriage meant 1 man, 1 woman, then case law would be pretty firmly set against the polygamists.

      But since they’re deciding that the definition of marriage is open to interpretation, it’s open to interpretation. Case law now FAVORS the polygamists.

      • Stan

        Not really because in the case of SSM, the court recognized that you don’t choose your orientation and as such it was discriminatory (equality clause). Since the government civil marriage law isn’t about procreation at all (i.e. it legislates unions) then the law couldn’t stand.

        In the case of polygamy, it’s still just on the level of a personal/religious preference (are those polygamists required to have multiple wives or it’s just some sort of “ideal” to achieve?) and they will most likely use the “freedom of religion” defense to push their point across. They could probably argue that the law wasn’t applied consistently in the past but overall, SSM doesn’t affect the legality of polygamy either positively or negatively; it’s two entirely different legal issues with two completely different legal approaches.

        Also, even if the court had “read-in” a procreation clause (for example) in the marriage law to not allow SSM, polygamists could still argue that it’s about their “religious freedom” and about the law being suddenly enforced for no particular reason. The fact that the definition of marriage has changed is completely irrelevant because it’s not a legal argument in itself; you won’t go far in a court with “The definition changed your honor, so we could change it again… right?”

    • Derek Pearce

      Bang on. I almost disagree with Steyn but I enjoy reading him. He’s like if the Fox News dudes had read a little Noel Coward (or maybe just read at all in their cases). If people can learn to not take Steyn’s political views as personal insults, they’d find him quite funny. I delight in his use of language and really don’t take his arguments seriously (much to my mortal peril according to him I’m sure).

      As for others who accuse Steyn of being homophobic: in spite of his retrograde views he doesn’t hate or fear gays. When he uses lines like the Liz Taylor/Roddy McDowell one or “the West wants in” (lol), he’s laughing with the gays, not at them. But the humourless reply is “I hate your politics so I will NOT laugh alongside you!”

    • Matt W.

      Commentary and opinion are Steyn’s thing. If you find contrary opinons difficult, you may want to skip the comment section of your newspaper.

      You’re right this is a serious issue. If I follow him, Steyn seems to think that the arguments that led to the legalization of gay marriage may apply to the legalization of polygamy. He also seems to think that the cultures that participate in polygamous unions are generally hostile to the values of liberal Canada.

      I think he’s right.

      I’d love to hear why, in your opinion, you are certain he’s wrong.

      • Hal

        Steyn could just as well state that the initial laws protecting equal rights for all citizens led to the arguments that led to the legalization of gay marriage. Why does his slippery slope start with the same-sex issue? Why not the abolishment of slavery, or the fight for equality of women, or the acceptance of marriages of mixed culture? One led to another, which led to another, and then another, and I would hope no one is regretting the progression. And it *is* social progression, not deterioration. Equal rights are a bitch; as soon as someone demands them, everyone else thinks they’re entitled to them as well.

        As for the distrust of certain cultures, I don’t think it’s the issue of multiple spouses that is hard to accept. We might shake our heads at the man who has a wife and keeps a mistress, but we don’t call it a crime. (Grounds for a divorce, hell yes, but not a crime.) What isn’t acceptable is the treatment of women and children as property. Keeping an open mind when it comes to polygamy does not mean condoning this brand of oppression. Legalizing it is not going to invite violators of human rights into the country, but it will give legal recourse and protection to those who are already here, or choose such an arrangement.

        • Chuck80

          Good argument, Hal.

          Steyn is a dinosaur – or else writes the kind of swill he knows his right-wingnut readers want to read. Casting false pearls before real swine, so to speak.

          He ought to try writing about something other than what he sees as the threat from Islam. Such as the pernicious effect of religion per se.

          As an atheist, I firmly believe that all religion is for the birds and recommend you read “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins, but find no more reason to demonise Islam than I need to tar all Christianity with the brush of the late unlamented Jerry Falwell or George W. Bush, etc.

          I still believe that if everyone just ignored religion, it would simply go away.

          • Valerie

            Gee Chuckie, Are you sure George Bush is so un-lamented? It’s truly amazing how stupid liberals/leftists/libertarians can be on the issue of polygamy. Why should anyone be forced to pay for the sex habits of a handful of weird men and women? Who do you think will pay for their multiple children when it’s obvious the parents can’t afford them? This is our civilization-defend it or shut up.

        • Matt W.

          Interesting you should bring up equality for women and the abolishment of slavery.

          How many modern western couples do you know want to add a spouse to the relationship? I agree that if they did there would probably be no problem, but to the best of my knowledge the demand is zero (please, correct me if I’m wrong).

          In theory, there is nothing wrong with polygamy. In practice it is incompatible with equal rights for women and amounts to defacto slavery.

          This “*is* social prgression”?

  • Gord Gilmour

    Umm… how can you stop functional polygamy today, between consenting adults? Straw, meet man.

    • Mike T.

      Ask the AG of BC.

      • Gord Gilmour

        Sure, you can prevent people from marrying… but having a functional arrangement similar to a marriage involving three or more adults? Impossible to police, short of putting webcams in every bedroom in the nation.

        • sf

          It’s easy to police if you don’t leave all the policing to the cops. Many laws are difficult to police. Most of them are accepted by society, which makes it easy. It all depends on whether you are willing to speak up when you see people break the law.

          • Gord

            Right. And you can prove they’re not just all room mates how? Sounds like a recipe for a witch hunt to me.

          • Critical Reasoning

            You can prove they’re not roommates if they tell you that they’re married. Most polygamists make no effort to conceal it.

          • sf

            CR has supported my point. And also, frankly, if you live next door to a multi-person marriage, you will figure it out sooner or later, no matter how much they try to hide it.

  • lightduty

    Let’s see where we stand:
    Gay Marriage – check.
    Polygamy – already state-funded. We’ll give that a half-check.
    Forced Marriages – sharia law is still months away. Quarter-check.
    Marriage to children – WHAT RIDICULOUS! Unless it’s part of a forced marriage. Oh, alright. 1/8 of a check.
    Marriage to animals – NO. That’s it! That’s the last straw! Welll, animals do have rights, at least in Switzerland. And many localities are saying you can have sex with animals, if you get their permission. 1/50 of a check.
    Marriage to plants – c’mon, that’s just ridiculous! I mean, marriage is a special thing!

    • M@

      I find your statistics fascinating. Do you have a newsletter?

  • Darrell

    Gay marriage didn’t have anything to do with polygamy. That’s why when you brought up Polygamy to a supporter of gay marriage, they rolled their eyes at you.

    It still doesn’t.

  • http://www.wernerpatels.com Werner Patels

    As I always say, I don’t care what people do as long as they don’t get in my face about it. This is true of gays (and their moronic and perverted parades with full-frontal nudity in public streets), and it’s true of polygamists. Even now, there’s nothing stopping anyone from living in a polygamist arrangement — they’re just not legally married.

    The danger, as is clear from the BC sect in Bountiful, is that such arrangements often involve the statutory rape of minors and all other manner of abuse of children.

    • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

      “I don’t care what people do as long as they don’t get in my face about it”

      Hey, great! So can we tone down the daily paeans to marriage, from straights and gays alike? I know a few single women in the 30′s who wouldn’t mind a break.

      • http://carnewsandviews.com jwl

        “I know a few single women in the 30’s who wouldn’t mind a break.”

        Tell them to stop talking to their mothers, should fix the problem.

        • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

          I fear it goes well beyond that.

          • http://carnewsandviews.com jwl

            I hear that. I am male, mid 30s, who has never married and am subject to similar talk as your women friends. However, pressure mostly comes from married people who I don’t think are happy in their marriage so I am kinda convinced that they are trying to get me to join them in their misery. :)

    • Mike T.

      Well, the Criminal Code purports to jail you if you go through a ceremony…

    • Derek Pearce

      Werner, I’m surprised you’re one of those who reduces gays to just what you seen from outrageous Pride parade footage. It’s a once a year extreme party, so A) don’t be a sourpuss and B) gays have lives the other 364 days a year, it’s true!

      I agree with you though that the main job of the law in regards to polygamy must be to protect minors from abuse or coercion.

      • Derek Pearce

        ouch, that’s “you’ve seen…” must slow down when typing…

    • Terry

      I think this comment calls for the inevitable link, so I’ll provide it:

      http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491

      • Critical Reasoning

        LOL.

      • Derek Pearce

        Hah! That was perfect.

  • Maggie’s Farmboy

    Pre Same-Sex Marriage: Polygamy was Bountiful
    Post Same-Sex Marriage: Polygamy is Prosecuted

    Your point, again, Stein?

    • Maggie’s Farmboy

      “Steyn”…doh!

  • Robert Speirs

    Why don’t we just cut through all the nonsense and say everyone’s married to everyone else – and all the animals, too?

    • Maggie’s Farmboy

      I’d like to think that l’m also married to Megan Fox, but she and/or my wife might object.

      But I’ll run it by the wife tonight. I’ll let you know how that goes.

    • Critical Reasoning

      It’s a slippery slope – one that’s bound to end in cannibalism and total chaos.

      • Maggie’s Farmboy

        Well, in this context I’d tend towards pescatarism.

        • Critical Reasoning

          What is pescatarism?

          • sf

            I think he is saying he wants to marry a fish.

          • Hal

            Only if it’s consensual. Don’t you force that guppy.

            (GAD, am I sick of the “Can I marry my cat, then?” rebuttal.)

  • Pingback: Polygamists on the march in Canada « Idea Anaconda

  • Oh Boy

    Which Canadian government or opposition party of any jurisdiction has proposed expanding the definition of legal marriage beyond that of two adult persons?

    That would be none, right?

    Even if the SCOC rules the prosecution of the Bountiful crew unlawful in some manner, which is far from certain, this would be a far cry from establishing a legal regime for polygamy in Canada. Nothing in law prevents adults from living communally, excepting for bawdy houses and brothels. But only two people can claim to be legally married to each other and receive the benefits (and detriments) found therein.

  • MiltonFyke

    Polygamy will have serious social and economic consequences, outlined well in one short piece, by Jonathon Rauch:

    http://reason.com/news/show/117323.html

    Read it and weep.

    • Bill Simpson

      I thought this was a pretty odd line of argument, since it’s premise is that if polygamy is legal, some greater proportion of men will chose to adopt it, taking two or three or more wives, thus effectively depriving other men of potential mates, and thus create some body of unmarried men to join gangs and become criminals.

      But this assumes that women will go along without active consent, and that is quite an assumption. Do we really expect that women will be so easily coerced into relationships they don’t want? Legal polygamy should give them sufficient protection against abusive situations (the same protection that exists in monogamous relationships).

      If some women would rather be in a polygamous relationship (and I expect that to be a small number), why should they be denied that opportunity just to be available for other single men?

      • Kevin

        Ahhh yes and so begins the moral ineptitude that is derived from a secular society. The question really is this: Why is anything wrong? If I’m a Christian, the answer is very simply this: the nuclear family was established long ago as the model family through the holy family (Mary, Jesus, Joseph). If I’m a secular Canadian or American, then what do I care? But then again, when you don’t have God’s laws to give you direction, whose laws do you have?

        I think it’d be foolish to presume that a significant amount of women wouldn’t marry some wealthy men out there. Maybe you’re right though, and I hope you are. Still, I can’t help but feel that it’s wrong and would cause extreme upheavals in society.

  • Leo

    I generally agree with things that Mark Steyn says but this is simply another case of tyranny of the majority trampling all over life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    I object to anyone telling me what god I should worship (if any) and what my marital arrangements might be.

    These are my affairs and not subject to anyone else’s cultural and historical biases.

From Macleans