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	<title>Comments on: A vote that really counts</title>
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		<title>By: Hunter Mars</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114522</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter Mars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114522</guid>
		<description>Hallelujah . About time someone posted some common sense .This is the way we will rescue Canada from becoming immaterial , irrelevant and discarnate .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hallelujah . About time someone posted some common sense .This is the way we will rescue Canada from becoming immaterial , irrelevant and discarnate .</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114521</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 23:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114521</guid>
		<description>Mr. Hopkins.  Bravo.  You are beginning to convince me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Hopkins.  Bravo.  You are beginning to convince me.</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin M. Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114520</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin M. Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 01:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114520</guid>
		<description>Justin,
I will reply to my own post since there is no &quot;Reply&quot; button on your &quot;Can you explain&quot; post.
In 1952, British Columbia used the single transferable ballot.  In an election the then CCF would have won under FPTP, STV allowed a bunch of locally known but provincially unknown people without cohesive provincial organization (they did not even have a leader and chose their leader after the election, in the legislature, the most truly proper place to make that selection) to come out of nowhere and take the largest block of seats as the previous coalition fell into oblivion and the CCF/NDP remained in opposition for twenty more years. That&#039;s the power of STV to shift voting away from party to person and, thus, benefit the independent candidate. That&#039;s why I have longed for single transferable ballot voting ever since I reached voting age some time after that election and heard about the difference when I was instructed to place a single &quot;X&quot; rather than numbers. That&#039;s why I supported STV in 2005 and now (I have to admit I do feel real discomfort with the huge multiple member ridings, though). Sadly, the beneficiaries of that election way back then did not keep the electoral system that got them into power. Now we will likely have to wait a whole generation more for another chance and I will never get to vote on the single transferable ballot I have longed to use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin,<br />
I will reply to my own post since there is no &#8220;Reply&#8221; button on your &#8220;Can you explain&#8221; post.<br />
In 1952, British Columbia used the single transferable ballot.  In an election the then CCF would have won under FPTP, STV allowed a bunch of locally known but provincially unknown people without cohesive provincial organization (they did not even have a leader and chose their leader after the election, in the legislature, the most truly proper place to make that selection) to come out of nowhere and take the largest block of seats as the previous coalition fell into oblivion and the CCF/NDP remained in opposition for twenty more years. That&#8217;s the power of STV to shift voting away from party to person and, thus, benefit the independent candidate. That&#8217;s why I have longed for single transferable ballot voting ever since I reached voting age some time after that election and heard about the difference when I was instructed to place a single &#8220;X&#8221; rather than numbers. That&#8217;s why I supported STV in 2005 and now (I have to admit I do feel real discomfort with the huge multiple member ridings, though). Sadly, the beneficiaries of that election way back then did not keep the electoral system that got them into power. Now we will likely have to wait a whole generation more for another chance and I will never get to vote on the single transferable ballot I have longed to use.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Jager</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114519</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Jager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 05:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114519</guid>
		<description>Justin,

I just wanted to mention one thing to be considered in regards to your comment that &#039;each party will run five candidates.&#039;  This is not entirely true; sure there will be certain ridings when some parties will run the number of candidates as are available seats in that riding, however:

- most parties allocate budgets to each candidate for campaigning in an election; these budgets fluctuate depending on which riding they are looking at
- in order for a single party to run five candidates, they are committing to spending that budget times five. There will be many occasions where a party will not be able to afford to run a full slate of candidates per riding, or will choose that it is not beneficial.
- what this means is that if party A runs five candidates (in the hopes of winning all of the available seats), the voters in that riding who are &quot;party loyal&quot; (say 50,000) have to split the vote amongst those candidates (in preference of course)
- if party B who is slightly less popular in that riding and maybe sets a smaller budget, therefore running only two candidates - they are likely to be able to count on their loyal voters (30,000) voting for those two candidates.
Over-saturating the riding with a full slate in an effort to win each seat may result in splitting those votes amongst their loyal voters, while the underdog can campaign solidly with a couple of candidates. In my example, you might see  the party A candidates receiving 10,000 votes each, while party B candidates each get 15,000 votes thus winning two of the five seats.

I hope that makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin,</p>
<p>I just wanted to mention one thing to be considered in regards to your comment that &#8216;each party will run five candidates.&#8217;  This is not entirely true; sure there will be certain ridings when some parties will run the number of candidates as are available seats in that riding, however:</p>
<p>- most parties allocate budgets to each candidate for campaigning in an election; these budgets fluctuate depending on which riding they are looking at<br />
- in order for a single party to run five candidates, they are committing to spending that budget times five. There will be many occasions where a party will not be able to afford to run a full slate of candidates per riding, or will choose that it is not beneficial.<br />
- what this means is that if party A runs five candidates (in the hopes of winning all of the available seats), the voters in that riding who are &#8220;party loyal&#8221; (say 50,000) have to split the vote amongst those candidates (in preference of course)<br />
- if party B who is slightly less popular in that riding and maybe sets a smaller budget, therefore running only two candidates &#8211; they are likely to be able to count on their loyal voters (30,000) voting for those two candidates.<br />
Over-saturating the riding with a full slate in an effort to win each seat may result in splitting those votes amongst their loyal voters, while the underdog can campaign solidly with a couple of candidates. In my example, you might see  the party A candidates receiving 10,000 votes each, while party B candidates each get 15,000 votes thus winning two of the five seats.</p>
<p>I hope that makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114518</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 01:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114518</guid>
		<description>Yes, as regards the Harper/Dion thing, I do not think the coalition attempt was in any way unconstitutional or technically undemocratic (certainly not by Canadian &quot;democratic&quot; standards - although my point was that our standards are not very good).

Also I was obviously misrepresenting our system by suggesting that Canadians had voted for their Prime Minister in a Presidential election style contest - also being hypocritical as, during the last Ontario election, I chastised an acquaintance for his error in saying he was going to vote for John Tory (Conservative Party Leader), as we were not residents of Tory&#039;s Don Valley West riding.

But let&#039;s face reality, many Canadians do think that the federal election is a referendum on party leaders (see the Liberals last election results).  Although these people are not correct, perhaps they should be.

Why don&#039;t we have a separate, presidential-type election for the executive branch?  Stephen Harper appears to me as a viable candidate that I would consider voting for.  In my ultra-non-Conservative Toronto riding, the Conservative party runs bottom-of-the-barrel, farcical lunatics, obviously with no expectation of success.  If I want Stephen Harper to be my Prime Minister, I have no way of voting that opinion.

This arrangement made more sense when real executive power was in the hands of the most undemocratic of institutions, the monarch.  Now that the Queen&#039;s role is a nugatory one, does it not make sense that all Canadians get somewhat of a say in who runs our government?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, as regards the Harper/Dion thing, I do not think the coalition attempt was in any way unconstitutional or technically undemocratic (certainly not by Canadian &#8220;democratic&#8221; standards &#8211; although my point was that our standards are not very good).</p>
<p>Also I was obviously misrepresenting our system by suggesting that Canadians had voted for their Prime Minister in a Presidential election style contest &#8211; also being hypocritical as, during the last Ontario election, I chastised an acquaintance for his error in saying he was going to vote for John Tory (Conservative Party Leader), as we were not residents of Tory&#8217;s Don Valley West riding.</p>
<p>But let&#8217;s face reality, many Canadians do think that the federal election is a referendum on party leaders (see the Liberals last election results).  Although these people are not correct, perhaps they should be.</p>
<p>Why don&#8217;t we have a separate, presidential-type election for the executive branch?  Stephen Harper appears to me as a viable candidate that I would consider voting for.  In my ultra-non-Conservative Toronto riding, the Conservative party runs bottom-of-the-barrel, farcical lunatics, obviously with no expectation of success.  If I want Stephen Harper to be my Prime Minister, I have no way of voting that opinion.</p>
<p>This arrangement made more sense when real executive power was in the hands of the most undemocratic of institutions, the monarch.  Now that the Queen&#8217;s role is a nugatory one, does it not make sense that all Canadians get somewhat of a say in who runs our government?</p>
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		<title>By: 40 was a travesity but 58 was not a fluke &#171; Pop The Stack</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114517</link>
		<dc:creator>40 was a travesity but 58 was not a fluke &#171; Pop The Stack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 00:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114517</guid>
		<description>[...] referendum result on tuesday we need to take a step back and look at what happened.  There was a great article by Andrew Coyne on Macleans a few days before the vote which now has a few insightful comments a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] referendum result on tuesday we need to take a step back and look at what happened.  There was a great article by Andrew Coyne on Macleans a few days before the vote which now has a few insightful comments a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114516</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 00:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114516</guid>
		<description>Benoit: I could just as easily say that the few people who supported BC-STV were ill-informed dupes, fools and losers. But I won&#039;t. BC-STV had a fair shake and people either did not care about it, or did not care to vote in favour of it.  It lost fairly and squarely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benoit: I could just as easily say that the few people who supported BC-STV were ill-informed dupes, fools and losers. But I won&#8217;t. BC-STV had a fair shake and people either did not care about it, or did not care to vote in favour of it.  It lost fairly and squarely.</p>
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		<title>By: Benoit DE BORGGRAEF</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114515</link>
		<dc:creator>Benoit DE BORGGRAEF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 23:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114515</guid>
		<description>Dear Andrew,

Thanks for your article. Unfortunately, it&#039;s just ... too late.

I&#039;d like to scream, to yell to each of my fellow British Columbians : &quot;WAKE UP ! YOU&#039;VE BEEN RAPED !&quot;.

How did that happen ?

Well, first of all, there was no need for a referendum. Voting system got changed in 1952 and 1953 in BC without the need for a referendum. Also, in 1991, BC saw its last multi-member riding disappear - again, with no input from the public.

Gordon Campbell got elected in 2001 on the promise to fix that broken electoral system that costed him the victory in 1996. But eh, you don&#039;t saw the branch on which you&#039;re sitting. The Citizens&#039; Assembly was a great political feat. However, their propsal meant utter disaster : no more unchecked majority government ! Yes, that&#039;s right : it&#039;s been more than 56 years that we have majority governments, where opposition can do nothing but whine in the microphone. All but one had less than 50 of the votes. Read that last sentence again. Now ponder what it means : for more than 56 years, a majority of the people had near zero power ; &quot;minority rules&quot; has almost always been the norm.

Gordon Campbell had the power to legislate the change recommended at arm&#039;s length. Heck ! 77 seats out of 79 - who would oppose him ? But why shoot himself in the foot ? So he sidestepped the proposal, and called for a referendum. But while 50% is enough for BC to leave Canada, he legislated that this one referendum needed 60% of approval to be binding.

And then came the surprise : the 2005 referendum obtained 57.7% of the votes - more than the BC Liberals obtained for their last landslide victory in 2001, when they certainly did not feel rejected. Yet, Gordon Campbell understood that the people of BC had decided to stay with FPTP.

To calm the crowds, the BC Liberals decided to &quot;give it another chance&quot; 4 years later. This next referendum would be equitably funded - the pros and cons would receive the same support from the Government. This time, however, Elections BC, would not educate the citizens. What an odd decision !?

In 2005, Elections BC had spent 1 million dollars to advertise and impartially educate British Columbians on the referendum. As a comparison, the BC Liberal party spent 10 million dollars on electoral expenses.

The ratio of approval per dollar spent was overwhelmingly in favor of STV, especially when considering that a poll conducted shortly after the referendum found out that most of the people who voted &quot;No&quot; did so because they had not been properly informed.

Was it because this very little impartial information yielded so much support that the majority BC Liberal Government (elected with only 46% of the votes) decided to revoke it ?

Anyhow, this time, while maintaining the threshold set for the referendum at 60%, the BC Liberals legislated that two opposing partisan sides would be responsible for educating the public of the pros and cons of the proposed change - each of which would receive half of that same 1 million dollar budget expanded in 2005.

The BC Liberals, who ran in 2001 on the pledge of fixing a broken system, would be forced to remain silent on the issue. The NDP, whose only recent victory was a false majority allowed by that same broken system, followed suit.

The BC Liberals ruled that the &quot;No&quot; side would be a very well introduced organization of political insiders, professional columnists and pundits. In contrast, the &quot;Yes&quot; side would be an amateurish society of volunteers. The budgets would be granted in February, 3 short months before the referendum.

While Elections BC was requested to be impartial and factual, neither of the &quot;Yes&quot; and &quot;No&quot; sides were required to be objective or ernest.

In fact, the very effective &quot;No&quot; side inundated the press with fear-and-loathe tactics, calling STV a &quot;scheme&quot;, a &quot;scam&quot; or a &quot;con&quot; ; disparaged the Citizens&#039; Assembly ; spread false rumors on the robustness of the system - basically saying it was not working anywhere ; insisting that the results would spell doom and chaos over BC, and that the politicians would go amok, unchecked and unaccountable.

While they were doing so, and mostly for free in most BC newspapers, the amateurish &quot;Yes&quot; side scrambled to build a last-minute grassroots campaign, picturing silly super-heroes, and relying on letters to the editor to react to the smears of the &quot;No&quot; side.

Surprizingly, the public&#039;s answer was a massive, uninformed &quot;No&quot;. That is, only for about 50 percent of the citizens. The other half of them did not even bother to cast a vote.

While canvassing for the &quot;Yes&quot; side, I was surprized to see how few citizens had even noticed a referendum was imminent, and how many of those had already made up their mind on the sole advise of the press. No question, whatsoever : if it&#039;s in the newspaper, it must be true. &quot;You are a con artist, and I will do everything I can to prevent you from sabotaging our world&#039;s finest democracy&quot; - that sentence was all too often readable in people&#039;s sneers. Our signs were trashed, and we were given fingers.

Now the referendum is over, and we are called &quot;losers&quot;. In this country, we don&#039;t grant losers any representation. That is the way our democracy works.

Benoit
North Vancouver</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Andrew,</p>
<p>Thanks for your article. Unfortunately, it&#8217;s just &#8230; too late.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to scream, to yell to each of my fellow British Columbians : &#8220;WAKE UP ! YOU&#8217;VE BEEN RAPED !&#8221;.</p>
<p>How did that happen ?</p>
<p>Well, first of all, there was no need for a referendum. Voting system got changed in 1952 and 1953 in BC without the need for a referendum. Also, in 1991, BC saw its last multi-member riding disappear &#8211; again, with no input from the public.</p>
<p>Gordon Campbell got elected in 2001 on the promise to fix that broken electoral system that costed him the victory in 1996. But eh, you don&#8217;t saw the branch on which you&#8217;re sitting. The Citizens&#8217; Assembly was a great political feat. However, their propsal meant utter disaster : no more unchecked majority government ! Yes, that&#8217;s right : it&#8217;s been more than 56 years that we have majority governments, where opposition can do nothing but whine in the microphone. All but one had less than 50 of the votes. Read that last sentence again. Now ponder what it means : for more than 56 years, a majority of the people had near zero power ; &#8220;minority rules&#8221; has almost always been the norm.</p>
<p>Gordon Campbell had the power to legislate the change recommended at arm&#8217;s length. Heck ! 77 seats out of 79 &#8211; who would oppose him ? But why shoot himself in the foot ? So he sidestepped the proposal, and called for a referendum. But while 50% is enough for BC to leave Canada, he legislated that this one referendum needed 60% of approval to be binding.</p>
<p>And then came the surprise : the 2005 referendum obtained 57.7% of the votes &#8211; more than the BC Liberals obtained for their last landslide victory in 2001, when they certainly did not feel rejected. Yet, Gordon Campbell understood that the people of BC had decided to stay with FPTP.</p>
<p>To calm the crowds, the BC Liberals decided to &#8220;give it another chance&#8221; 4 years later. This next referendum would be equitably funded &#8211; the pros and cons would receive the same support from the Government. This time, however, Elections BC, would not educate the citizens. What an odd decision !?</p>
<p>In 2005, Elections BC had spent 1 million dollars to advertise and impartially educate British Columbians on the referendum. As a comparison, the BC Liberal party spent 10 million dollars on electoral expenses.</p>
<p>The ratio of approval per dollar spent was overwhelmingly in favor of STV, especially when considering that a poll conducted shortly after the referendum found out that most of the people who voted &#8220;No&#8221; did so because they had not been properly informed.</p>
<p>Was it because this very little impartial information yielded so much support that the majority BC Liberal Government (elected with only 46% of the votes) decided to revoke it ?</p>
<p>Anyhow, this time, while maintaining the threshold set for the referendum at 60%, the BC Liberals legislated that two opposing partisan sides would be responsible for educating the public of the pros and cons of the proposed change &#8211; each of which would receive half of that same 1 million dollar budget expanded in 2005.</p>
<p>The BC Liberals, who ran in 2001 on the pledge of fixing a broken system, would be forced to remain silent on the issue. The NDP, whose only recent victory was a false majority allowed by that same broken system, followed suit.</p>
<p>The BC Liberals ruled that the &#8220;No&#8221; side would be a very well introduced organization of political insiders, professional columnists and pundits. In contrast, the &#8220;Yes&#8221; side would be an amateurish society of volunteers. The budgets would be granted in February, 3 short months before the referendum.</p>
<p>While Elections BC was requested to be impartial and factual, neither of the &#8220;Yes&#8221; and &#8220;No&#8221; sides were required to be objective or ernest.</p>
<p>In fact, the very effective &#8220;No&#8221; side inundated the press with fear-and-loathe tactics, calling STV a &#8220;scheme&#8221;, a &#8220;scam&#8221; or a &#8220;con&#8221; ; disparaged the Citizens&#8217; Assembly ; spread false rumors on the robustness of the system &#8211; basically saying it was not working anywhere ; insisting that the results would spell doom and chaos over BC, and that the politicians would go amok, unchecked and unaccountable.</p>
<p>While they were doing so, and mostly for free in most BC newspapers, the amateurish &#8220;Yes&#8221; side scrambled to build a last-minute grassroots campaign, picturing silly super-heroes, and relying on letters to the editor to react to the smears of the &#8220;No&#8221; side.</p>
<p>Surprizingly, the public&#8217;s answer was a massive, uninformed &#8220;No&#8221;. That is, only for about 50 percent of the citizens. The other half of them did not even bother to cast a vote.</p>
<p>While canvassing for the &#8220;Yes&#8221; side, I was surprized to see how few citizens had even noticed a referendum was imminent, and how many of those had already made up their mind on the sole advise of the press. No question, whatsoever : if it&#8217;s in the newspaper, it must be true. &#8220;You are a con artist, and I will do everything I can to prevent you from sabotaging our world&#8217;s finest democracy&#8221; &#8211; that sentence was all too often readable in people&#8217;s sneers. Our signs were trashed, and we were given fingers.</p>
<p>Now the referendum is over, and we are called &#8220;losers&#8221;. In this country, we don&#8217;t grant losers any representation. That is the way our democracy works.</p>
<p>Benoit<br />
North Vancouver</p>
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		<title>By: EvWest</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114514</link>
		<dc:creator>EvWest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 18:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114514</guid>
		<description>Excellent points, Justin.

However, with respect to point #4, Less than 1% of voters (only voters in their two constituencies ) voted for Harper or Dion. Harper had the support of Conservative MPs representing 38% of voters, and Dion had the support of a greater number of Liberal, NDP and Bloc MPs representing over 50% of voters. This sort of coalition happens frequently in other parliamentary democracies, especially those with more proportional electoral systems, and there is nothing undemocratic or illegal about it.

With respect to point #2, don&#039;t forget that the Senate is also horrendously unbalanced, with provinces like New Brunswick and Newfoundland over-represented relative to Alberta and B.C. by a nearly 10-1 margin! N.B. has well under one quarter of B.C.&#039;s population, with almost twice as many senators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent points, Justin.</p>
<p>However, with respect to point #4, Less than 1% of voters (only voters in their two constituencies ) voted for Harper or Dion. Harper had the support of Conservative MPs representing 38% of voters, and Dion had the support of a greater number of Liberal, NDP and Bloc MPs representing over 50% of voters. This sort of coalition happens frequently in other parliamentary democracies, especially those with more proportional electoral systems, and there is nothing undemocratic or illegal about it.</p>
<p>With respect to point #2, don&#8217;t forget that the Senate is also horrendously unbalanced, with provinces like New Brunswick and Newfoundland over-represented relative to Alberta and B.C. by a nearly 10-1 margin! N.B. has well under one quarter of B.C.&#8217;s population, with almost twice as many senators.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114513</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 08:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114513</guid>
		<description>Remocracy

It is true that I have a lot to learn about Canadian Government - I went to school in Ontario, so the only introduction I ever got to Civics was at a Honda dealership.  That notwithstanding, there appear to me to be some very odd facts about Canadian &quot;democracy&quot;, some of which I will present to you now.

1.  The Canadian Head of State is an octogenarian hereditary monarch and religious leader, Supreme Governor of the Church of England.  The Queen of Canada&#039;s duties are tended to here by her appointed vice-regal representative, the Governor General of Canada, who is also the Commander-in-chief of the Canadian military.  Before any bill in Canada becomes a law, the GG must grant her Royal Assent.

By the way, psychologists have a clinical term for people who act with reverence toward grotesquely garbed, geriatric mountebanks who act as figure-heads for the most archaic and anachronistic institutions - they&#039;re called Catholics.

2. The Senate of Canada is a body entirely appointed by the Governor General.  It is restricted to those who own property.

3.  The Governor of the Bank of Canada is appointed by the bank&#039;s board of directors.  He or she directs monetary policy independent of the government.

To refresh your memory, it was Baron M.A. Rothschild who said, &quot;Give me control over a nation&#039;s currency, and I care not who makes its laws.”

4.  Last year, numerous protesters throughout the country wanted the GG to remove Stephen Harper from the Prime-Minister&#039;s Office on the logic that sixty-two percent of voters did not vote for him.  The man whom they felt did deserve to be Prime-Minster was Stephane Dion, whom seventy-four percent of Canadian voters did not vote for.

5.  This year, the Province of Alberta ran a deficit despite the fact that government deficits are illegal by Alberta Law.

I leave it for you to decide what name befits a government that operates outside the law.

6.  In Ontario, when Dalton McGuilty first ran for Premier he promised not to raise taxes (although, to be fair, he didn&#039;t ask us to read his lips).  He won, raised taxes, and got elected the next time.

In Canada we love to extol the virtues of democracy, but we are loathe to participate in a discussion of what a democracy really is.  This is not democracy, it&#039;s hypocrisy.

Inasmuch as a democracy represents the &quot;will of the people&quot; - we don&#039;t have it.  What we do have is a hodge-podge of appointed aristocrats, inherited monarchs, and elected oligarchs.

Is it not time to devise a system of government that makes, at very least, a modicum of sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remocracy</p>
<p>It is true that I have a lot to learn about Canadian Government &#8211; I went to school in Ontario, so the only introduction I ever got to Civics was at a Honda dealership.  That notwithstanding, there appear to me to be some very odd facts about Canadian &#8220;democracy&#8221;, some of which I will present to you now.</p>
<p>1.  The Canadian Head of State is an octogenarian hereditary monarch and religious leader, Supreme Governor of the Church of England.  The Queen of Canada&#8217;s duties are tended to here by her appointed vice-regal representative, the Governor General of Canada, who is also the Commander-in-chief of the Canadian military.  Before any bill in Canada becomes a law, the GG must grant her Royal Assent.</p>
<p>By the way, psychologists have a clinical term for people who act with reverence toward grotesquely garbed, geriatric mountebanks who act as figure-heads for the most archaic and anachronistic institutions &#8211; they&#8217;re called Catholics.</p>
<p>2. The Senate of Canada is a body entirely appointed by the Governor General.  It is restricted to those who own property.</p>
<p>3.  The Governor of the Bank of Canada is appointed by the bank&#8217;s board of directors.  He or she directs monetary policy independent of the government.</p>
<p>To refresh your memory, it was Baron M.A. Rothschild who said, &#8220;Give me control over a nation&#8217;s currency, and I care not who makes its laws.”</p>
<p>4.  Last year, numerous protesters throughout the country wanted the GG to remove Stephen Harper from the Prime-Minister&#8217;s Office on the logic that sixty-two percent of voters did not vote for him.  The man whom they felt did deserve to be Prime-Minster was Stephane Dion, whom seventy-four percent of Canadian voters did not vote for.</p>
<p>5.  This year, the Province of Alberta ran a deficit despite the fact that government deficits are illegal by Alberta Law.</p>
<p>I leave it for you to decide what name befits a government that operates outside the law.</p>
<p>6.  In Ontario, when Dalton McGuilty first ran for Premier he promised not to raise taxes (although, to be fair, he didn&#8217;t ask us to read his lips).  He won, raised taxes, and got elected the next time.</p>
<p>In Canada we love to extol the virtues of democracy, but we are loathe to participate in a discussion of what a democracy really is.  This is not democracy, it&#8217;s hypocrisy.</p>
<p>Inasmuch as a democracy represents the &#8220;will of the people&#8221; &#8211; we don&#8217;t have it.  What we do have is a hodge-podge of appointed aristocrats, inherited monarchs, and elected oligarchs.</p>
<p>Is it not time to devise a system of government that makes, at very least, a modicum of sense?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114512</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 18:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114512</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right! I didn&#039;t see that on my first search. BC is way ahead already!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right! I didn&#8217;t see that on my first search. BC is way ahead already!</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin M. Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114511</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin M. Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 18:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114511</guid>
		<description>Peter,  British Columbia does have recall.  No recall has ever succeeded so far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter,  British Columbia does have recall.  No recall has ever succeeded so far.</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin M. Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114510</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin M. Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 18:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114510</guid>
		<description>There is good reason why the NDP is wary of STV.  When British Columbia previously used a single transferable ballot,  the NDP (then CCF) got stung badly losing an election they were expected to win (and would have won under FPTP) to a bunch of unknowns who came out of nowhere to replace the faltering previous coalition government, then went on to keep power for twenty years.  Therein lies the power of STV; it allows the people to break with party control if the people so choose.  It was a real shame the single transferable ballot got dropped before I reached voting age; now I will not likely experience it in the remainder of my lifetime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is good reason why the NDP is wary of STV.  When British Columbia previously used a single transferable ballot,  the NDP (then CCF) got stung badly losing an election they were expected to win (and would have won under FPTP) to a bunch of unknowns who came out of nowhere to replace the faltering previous coalition government, then went on to keep power for twenty years.  Therein lies the power of STV; it allows the people to break with party control if the people so choose.  It was a real shame the single transferable ballot got dropped before I reached voting age; now I will not likely experience it in the remainder of my lifetime.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114509</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 17:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114509</guid>
		<description>Eric, I think it was well communicated, and people found the idea not to their liking. There&#039;s a better idea than FPTP out there, but BC-STV was not it.

Start by giving the voters the power to recall non-performing MPPs and calling for a local by-election. That&#039;s something that would really put the ball in the voters&#039; court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, I think it was well communicated, and people found the idea not to their liking. There&#8217;s a better idea than FPTP out there, but BC-STV was not it.</p>
<p>Start by giving the voters the power to recall non-performing MPPs and calling for a local by-election. That&#8217;s something that would really put the ball in the voters&#8217; court.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114508</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 17:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114508</guid>
		<description>What a sad day to be a British Columbian! Thoroughly pissed by the results, but what could you expect? Worst case of communications I&#039;ve seen in ages... starting from the god-awful naming of it to all of the marketing materials that focused almost exclusively on the complexities of the system instead of the benefits, with the net result being CONFUSION... even for people who &#039;more-or-less&#039; understood it.

And I think the NDP shares some of the blame. They should have really championed STV as a central part of their platform. If every Green and NDP vote were also a vote for STV, maybe we wouldn&#039;t have another four years of Gordo&#039;s raping and pillaging.

Hopefully a more visionary province will take the lead because we blew it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a sad day to be a British Columbian! Thoroughly pissed by the results, but what could you expect? Worst case of communications I&#8217;ve seen in ages&#8230; starting from the god-awful naming of it to all of the marketing materials that focused almost exclusively on the complexities of the system instead of the benefits, with the net result being CONFUSION&#8230; even for people who &#8216;more-or-less&#8217; understood it.</p>
<p>And I think the NDP shares some of the blame. They should have really championed STV as a central part of their platform. If every Green and NDP vote were also a vote for STV, maybe we wouldn&#8217;t have another four years of Gordo&#8217;s raping and pillaging.</p>
<p>Hopefully a more visionary province will take the lead because we blew it!</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin M. Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114507</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin M. Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 09:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114507</guid>
		<description>That is STV with single member ridings; just what I would have preferred to have seen proposed by the Citizen&#039;s Assembly on Electrical Reform.  I suspect the large multiple member constituencies turned a lot of voters off STV this time around (I know my own wife changed her mind at the last minute when she realized how big the ridings would be).  I had my own reservations about the large ridings but have long wanted to vote on a single transferable ballot and so I am disappointed at the loss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is STV with single member ridings; just what I would have preferred to have seen proposed by the Citizen&#8217;s Assembly on Electrical Reform.  I suspect the large multiple member constituencies turned a lot of voters off STV this time around (I know my own wife changed her mind at the last minute when she realized how big the ridings would be).  I had my own reservations about the large ridings but have long wanted to vote on a single transferable ballot and so I am disappointed at the loss.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114506</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 09:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114506</guid>
		<description>Justin - Hear hear. A &quot;none of the above&quot; option lets the parties know that there are interested and involved individuals out there whose votes could be won if only their interests were appealed to. Unfortunately, right now the closest you can get is spoiling your ballot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin &#8211; Hear hear. A &#8220;none of the above&#8221; option lets the parties know that there are interested and involved individuals out there whose votes could be won if only their interests were appealed to. Unfortunately, right now the closest you can get is spoiling your ballot.</p>
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		<title>By: steve81</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114505</link>
		<dc:creator>steve81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 03:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114505</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m saying we should amend the Constitution so that GG doesn&#039;t have a say. Let&#039;s have fixed election dates and let the legislature decide which party or coalition should form the Government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m saying we should amend the Constitution so that GG doesn&#8217;t have a say. Let&#8217;s have fixed election dates and let the legislature decide which party or coalition should form the Government.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114504</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 03:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114504</guid>
		<description>Can you explain to me a scenario in which an independent will benefit from the STV?

The reason I am skeptical is because I see the fundamental problem with politics not as one of supply, but as one of demand.

People fill out ballots as if they are playing Pro-Line (sports gambling).  I actually know people who have, on the day following an election, celebrated being &quot;right&quot; - that is, correctly predicting the winner.

Obviously, with this mentality, no electoral system has any hope of fixing or improving Canadian politics.

However, one suggestion I have is that instead of a list of candidates and/or parties from which to choose on a ballot, voters are simply provided a blank piece of paper on which each is to write the name of his or her desired candidate.  This way a voter is forced to know at least one thing about at least one candidate (even if its just the name).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you explain to me a scenario in which an independent will benefit from the STV?</p>
<p>The reason I am skeptical is because I see the fundamental problem with politics not as one of supply, but as one of demand.</p>
<p>People fill out ballots as if they are playing Pro-Line (sports gambling).  I actually know people who have, on the day following an election, celebrated being &#8220;right&#8221; &#8211; that is, correctly predicting the winner.</p>
<p>Obviously, with this mentality, no electoral system has any hope of fixing or improving Canadian politics.</p>
<p>However, one suggestion I have is that instead of a list of candidates and/or parties from which to choose on a ballot, voters are simply provided a blank piece of paper on which each is to write the name of his or her desired candidate.  This way a voter is forced to know at least one thing about at least one candidate (even if its just the name).</p>
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		<title>By: BDJ</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114503</link>
		<dc:creator>BDJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 03:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114503</guid>
		<description>What essentially happens is that you&#039;d still have the same electoral districts, the same ballot, and the same electoral system. The only difference is that in order for a candidate to win they require 50%+1 to represent the riding. Just as an example:

1 Conservative
3 Liberal
4 New Democrat
2 Green

You would rank your favorite candidate as the 1st choice and then pick your second, third, and fourth choice. Once that is done the votes are tallied up.

If a majority is not the result from the 1st choices given, then the last candidate is dropped and all the second choices are redistributed to the remaining candidates. This would go on until a candidate has the support of 50%+1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What essentially happens is that you&#8217;d still have the same electoral districts, the same ballot, and the same electoral system. The only difference is that in order for a candidate to win they require 50%+1 to represent the riding. Just as an example:</p>
<p>1 Conservative<br />
3 Liberal<br />
4 New Democrat<br />
2 Green</p>
<p>You would rank your favorite candidate as the 1st choice and then pick your second, third, and fourth choice. Once that is done the votes are tallied up.</p>
<p>If a majority is not the result from the 1st choices given, then the last candidate is dropped and all the second choices are redistributed to the remaining candidates. This would go on until a candidate has the support of 50%+1.</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin M. Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114502</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin M. Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 02:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114502</guid>
		<description>What is Instant Run Voting?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is Instant Run Voting?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: BDJ</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114501</link>
		<dc:creator>BDJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 00:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114501</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve already mentioned this previously, so I&#039;ll try to get a response again.

Instead of advocating a largely complicated form of electoral reform, why not go with something simple. Instant Run Voting is much simpler and I&#039;m certain more people would support is as it ensures each vote isn&#039;t &quot;wasted&quot; and also allows for a wider range of candidates. Not to mention the fact you still maintain a good level of local representation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve already mentioned this previously, so I&#8217;ll try to get a response again.</p>
<p>Instead of advocating a largely complicated form of electoral reform, why not go with something simple. Instant Run Voting is much simpler and I&#8217;m certain more people would support is as it ensures each vote isn&#8217;t &#8220;wasted&#8221; and also allows for a wider range of candidates. Not to mention the fact you still maintain a good level of local representation.</p>
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		<title>By: aok</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114500</link>
		<dc:creator>aok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 00:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114500</guid>
		<description>Vote for STV!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vote for STV!</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin M. Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114499</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin M. Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 23:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114499</guid>
		<description>No Justin,
I do not infer that you favour PR.  I see that you do not and for much the same reasons I do not like PR.  I just disagree with your conclusion that STV will have the same result and PR and strengthen party control.  STV will weaken party control and return member responsibility back to the constituency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Justin,<br />
I do not infer that you favour PR.  I see that you do not and for much the same reasons I do not like PR.  I just disagree with your conclusion that STV will have the same result and PR and strengthen party control.  STV will weaken party control and return member responsibility back to the constituency.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Small</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114498</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Small</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 22:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114498</guid>
		<description>I respectfully disagree with your final statement. Perhaps the most fundamental change that would come of STV is a change in how MPs and their parties BEHAVE. Citizens are most disposed to responding to that sort of change, and that bodes well for a new relationship between elected representatives and the citizenry.
However, it may not rectify another problem of FPTP. If an elected MP, as Coyne pointed out, can snub and ignore his constituents because enough of them will not vote against his or her party, that is systemic of one of the most personal dimensions of the disaffection citizens feel toward their MPs. With the elimination of such &quot;safe seat&quot; realities, MPs are on the hook and cannot dodge the scrutiny of their constituents, and that makes them more responsive, and therefore, more responsible.
Under STV, with two or more MPs per riding as Coyne is suggesting, candidates would only have to pander to factional sectors of their constituents, and only do enough to keep themselves from coming in 4th.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I respectfully disagree with your final statement. Perhaps the most fundamental change that would come of STV is a change in how MPs and their parties BEHAVE. Citizens are most disposed to responding to that sort of change, and that bodes well for a new relationship between elected representatives and the citizenry.<br />
However, it may not rectify another problem of FPTP. If an elected MP, as Coyne pointed out, can snub and ignore his constituents because enough of them will not vote against his or her party, that is systemic of one of the most personal dimensions of the disaffection citizens feel toward their MPs. With the elimination of such &#8220;safe seat&#8221; realities, MPs are on the hook and cannot dodge the scrutiny of their constituents, and that makes them more responsive, and therefore, more responsible.<br />
Under STV, with two or more MPs per riding as Coyne is suggesting, candidates would only have to pander to factional sectors of their constituents, and only do enough to keep themselves from coming in 4th.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Small</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114497</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Small</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 22:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114497</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s exactly what they do, if directed by the Governor General to do it. However, ever since Lord Byng, no GG has had the balls to say no to a PM and force this alternative on the house - see the &quot;coalition crisis&quot; of last fall for an example of GG&#039;s inability to say &quot;no&quot; to a sitting PM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s exactly what they do, if directed by the Governor General to do it. However, ever since Lord Byng, no GG has had the balls to say no to a PM and force this alternative on the house &#8211; see the &#8220;coalition crisis&#8221; of last fall for an example of GG&#8217;s inability to say &#8220;no&#8221; to a sitting PM.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114496</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 20:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114496</guid>
		<description>Opposition?!

Opposition only works if there exists an opposing view, excluding of course the opposition for opposition&#039;s sake tactic of Jack-be-not-so-nimble Layton - I will vote against it whatever it is.

Any debate or criticism in the House of Commons is over efficacy, not ideology.

For example, some opposition member will state that the Government failed to deliver X dollars to Y project.  It is never argued that Y project should not be funded by Government at all.

All Governments in Canada need not just a down-sizing in shape, but also a down-sizing in scope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Opposition?!</p>
<p>Opposition only works if there exists an opposing view, excluding of course the opposition for opposition&#8217;s sake tactic of Jack-be-not-so-nimble Layton &#8211; I will vote against it whatever it is.</p>
<p>Any debate or criticism in the House of Commons is over efficacy, not ideology.</p>
<p>For example, some opposition member will state that the Government failed to deliver X dollars to Y project.  It is never argued that Y project should not be funded by Government at all.</p>
<p>All Governments in Canada need not just a down-sizing in shape, but also a down-sizing in scope.</p>
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		<title>By: EvWest</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114495</link>
		<dc:creator>EvWest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 19:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114495</guid>
		<description>I will be voting for STV, as it is more representative than our current FPTP system and opens the door to further reform. However, it must be noted that STV is NOT a proportional system!

Under STV, a party (e.g. the Greens) could STILL get about 15% of (first choice) votes province-wide and not win a single seat, if they had 32% in all the rural ridings and 14% in the urban ones with no secondary vote support. STV is mathematically likely to produce results that are closer to proportionality than those of the current system, but it is absolutely not a truly proportional system itself. It&#039;s more of a proportional/FPTP hybrid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will be voting for STV, as it is more representative than our current FPTP system and opens the door to further reform. However, it must be noted that STV is NOT a proportional system!</p>
<p>Under STV, a party (e.g. the Greens) could STILL get about 15% of (first choice) votes province-wide and not win a single seat, if they had 32% in all the rural ridings and 14% in the urban ones with no secondary vote support. STV is mathematically likely to produce results that are closer to proportionality than those of the current system, but it is absolutely not a truly proportional system itself. It&#8217;s more of a proportional/FPTP hybrid.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114494</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 17:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114494</guid>
		<description>Thanks. I would be interested in any political science journals that have explored those kinds of results.

I&#039;m still skeptical that the electoral system will do anything in and of itself to free MPs from central control and command structures. They already have the sheer numbers necessary to enact many of the reform initiatives they have identified for themselves in order to have a greater impact on public policy. Why haven&#039;t they?

I&#039;m not certain they feel in their heart of hearts that they have any kind of mandate independent of their party&#039;s. Regardless of the voting system, if it still demonstrably depends on the strength of your party brand and your leader for you to get elected, and if your selection process as a candidate has no way of giving you a policy mandate independnet of your leader&#039; - and I ask again, should it? - then they remain votes in the hands of leadership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks. I would be interested in any political science journals that have explored those kinds of results.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still skeptical that the electoral system will do anything in and of itself to free MPs from central control and command structures. They already have the sheer numbers necessary to enact many of the reform initiatives they have identified for themselves in order to have a greater impact on public policy. Why haven&#8217;t they?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not certain they feel in their heart of hearts that they have any kind of mandate independent of their party&#8217;s. Regardless of the voting system, if it still demonstrably depends on the strength of your party brand and your leader for you to get elected, and if your selection process as a candidate has no way of giving you a policy mandate independnet of your leader&#8217; &#8211; and I ask again, should it? &#8211; then they remain votes in the hands of leadership.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Crowley</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114493</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Crowley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114493</guid>
		<description>I agree that people shouldn&#039;t be promising it will change everything and make politics all nice and friendly.  But changing the incentives that people work under can have  a powerful effect on people&#039;s behaviour.  It may take a few elections, but there are strong incentives for similar parties to be civil to each other under STV since they want transfer votes from their competitors.  Meanwhile, parties will realize that a coalition form of government is more likely in the new system than currently so they will need to start thinking about how they can work with other parties earlier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that people shouldn&#8217;t be promising it will change everything and make politics all nice and friendly.  But changing the incentives that people work under can have  a powerful effect on people&#8217;s behaviour.  It may take a few elections, but there are strong incentives for similar parties to be civil to each other under STV since they want transfer votes from their competitors.  Meanwhile, parties will realize that a coalition form of government is more likely in the new system than currently so they will need to start thinking about how they can work with other parties earlier.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Crowley</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114492</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Crowley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114492</guid>
		<description>what you are missing justin is that the voters get to choose between members of each party as well.  So if party X runs a few bad apples, then the voters don&#039;t have to pick them and can instead rank the reasonable candidates from party Y.  Voters can even have preferences over parties they hate to help adjust the party line since the MLA that make it to the legislature will have more sway in the future than the losers.  You can even imagine that kind of voter power in the current system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what you are missing justin is that the voters get to choose between members of each party as well.  So if party X runs a few bad apples, then the voters don&#8217;t have to pick them and can instead rank the reasonable candidates from party Y.  Voters can even have preferences over parties they hate to help adjust the party line since the MLA that make it to the legislature will have more sway in the future than the losers.  You can even imagine that kind of voter power in the current system.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Crowley</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114491</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Crowley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114491</guid>
		<description>Peter, the reason this seems to be a problem is an illusion that the current FPTP gives us about our democracy.  Voting is not actually about choosing &#039;the winner&#039;.  Voting is about selecting representatives in parliament to pass laws on our behalf.  So don&#039;t think of it as having the &#039;top 5&#039; candidates from a riding going to the legislature.  Instead, you preferences are used to help choose the 5 most appropriate MLAs for your riding.  Currently you only get a say over one MLA, but its an all or nothing vote.  Now you get a soft vote over 5 MLAs and you are guaranteed to not help lower choices by your higher choices and to not waste your higher up choices if they are for candidates who aren&#039;t popular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, the reason this seems to be a problem is an illusion that the current FPTP gives us about our democracy.  Voting is not actually about choosing &#8216;the winner&#8217;.  Voting is about selecting representatives in parliament to pass laws on our behalf.  So don&#8217;t think of it as having the &#8216;top 5&#8242; candidates from a riding going to the legislature.  Instead, you preferences are used to help choose the 5 most appropriate MLAs for your riding.  Currently you only get a say over one MLA, but its an all or nothing vote.  Now you get a soft vote over 5 MLAs and you are guaranteed to not help lower choices by your higher choices and to not waste your higher up choices if they are for candidates who aren&#8217;t popular.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114490</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 13:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114490</guid>
		<description>I meant to note that this thought was in reply to the statement by JW - “The House of Commons doesn’t need a little reshuffling, it needs aggressive down-sizing.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant to note that this thought was in reply to the statement by JW &#8211; “The House of Commons doesn’t need a little reshuffling, it needs aggressive down-sizing.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114489</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 13:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114489</guid>
		<description>Downsizing any legislature plays into the hands of government. It stretches the opposition too thin to cover their legislative duties, committee work and accountability functions and enlarges their constituency and related ombudsman role beyond capacity. At the same time, all of government ends up in cabinet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Downsizing any legislature plays into the hands of government. It stretches the opposition too thin to cover their legislative duties, committee work and accountability functions and enlarges their constituency and related ombudsman role beyond capacity. At the same time, all of government ends up in cabinet.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114488</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 07:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114488</guid>
		<description>Please do not infer that I am in some way in favour of Proportional Representation.  I live in Ontario and voted against the proposed PR system that was being offered here in &#039;07 - precisely because of the accountability issues you mentioned.  Again, I am still digesting this STV system, but it seems to me that if a riding has five seats up for election, each party will run five candidates.  Now a party running multiple candidates will not allow those candidates to obfuscate the party line with diverging opinions - all the more so now that a &quot;bad apple&quot; no longer means the loss of one seat, but many.

Actually, I think this STV thing will ineluctably metamorphose into some sort of PR system as people generally find it easier and more comfortable to align with a tribe than a person.  For example, a voter will find it needlessly onerous to decide the preferable between Liberal One and Liberal Two (after all, they&#039;re both Liberals!) and conclude by thinking - would it not be easier just to rank the parties?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please do not infer that I am in some way in favour of Proportional Representation.  I live in Ontario and voted against the proposed PR system that was being offered here in &#8217;07 &#8211; precisely because of the accountability issues you mentioned.  Again, I am still digesting this STV system, but it seems to me that if a riding has five seats up for election, each party will run five candidates.  Now a party running multiple candidates will not allow those candidates to obfuscate the party line with diverging opinions &#8211; all the more so now that a &#8220;bad apple&#8221; no longer means the loss of one seat, but many.</p>
<p>Actually, I think this STV thing will ineluctably metamorphose into some sort of PR system as people generally find it easier and more comfortable to align with a tribe than a person.  For example, a voter will find it needlessly onerous to decide the preferable between Liberal One and Liberal Two (after all, they&#8217;re both Liberals!) and conclude by thinking &#8211; would it not be easier just to rank the parties?</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin M. Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114487</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin M. Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 05:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114487</guid>
		<description>Sorry Justin,
A single transferable ballot de-emphasizes parties and would permit independents greater opportunity, as you appear to wish.  Even within parties, control will weaken as constituencies come to expect more of their MLAs.  It is under PR that party control gets even stronger than now since some representatives, at least, would be beholden to no, local constituency, only to party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Justin,<br />
A single transferable ballot de-emphasizes parties and would permit independents greater opportunity, as you appear to wish.  Even within parties, control will weaken as constituencies come to expect more of their MLAs.  It is under PR that party control gets even stronger than now since some representatives, at least, would be beholden to no, local constituency, only to party.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114486</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 02:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114486</guid>
		<description>The problem with the proposed STV system - although I admit I haven&#039;t fully worked it all out in my head yet - is that it seems to put an emphasis on parties over people.

Canadian Federal Elections are already far too much like referendums on the party leaders.  Any electoral reforms aimed at granting easier access to more parties also necessitates increased emphasis on party brands in campaigning strategies to the further diminution (if it&#039;s not already tasting magma) of individual characters with individual ideas.

The great myth is that Canadian politics suffer from having too few parties, the truth is that one is too many.

A political party is a group of individuals convening and coalescing to share one political philosophy or opinion.  Now, outside of politics, having one opinion is the domain of one person.  So, to conclude, a political party is hundreds or thousands of people doing the work of one person - in Toronto we call this a City Employee.

I don&#039;t know if you&#039;ve noticed, but the economy is slumped over the toilet experiencing the ugly side of the boom-bust cycle.  If ever there was a time to start cutting out excesses - it&#039;s now.

According to Wikipedia, the Canadian Hansard is &quot;guided by the principle of avoiding &#039;repetitions, redundancies and obvious errors&#039;&quot;.

&quot;Repetitions, redundancies and obvious errors&quot; pretty much sums up Canadian politics.  The House of Commons doesn&#039;t need a little reshuffling, it needs aggressive down-sizing.

I know what you&#039;re thinking, how will we know who is Prime Minister if there are no parties from which to determine a majority of support?

Well, we can solve this problem the same way we solve other problems in this modern &quot;democracy&quot; - have the appointed vice-regal representative of the monarch of the United Kingdom, and head of the Church of England, appoint someone.

Is Stephane Dion available?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with the proposed STV system &#8211; although I admit I haven&#8217;t fully worked it all out in my head yet &#8211; is that it seems to put an emphasis on parties over people.</p>
<p>Canadian Federal Elections are already far too much like referendums on the party leaders.  Any electoral reforms aimed at granting easier access to more parties also necessitates increased emphasis on party brands in campaigning strategies to the further diminution (if it&#8217;s not already tasting magma) of individual characters with individual ideas.</p>
<p>The great myth is that Canadian politics suffer from having too few parties, the truth is that one is too many.</p>
<p>A political party is a group of individuals convening and coalescing to share one political philosophy or opinion.  Now, outside of politics, having one opinion is the domain of one person.  So, to conclude, a political party is hundreds or thousands of people doing the work of one person &#8211; in Toronto we call this a City Employee.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve noticed, but the economy is slumped over the toilet experiencing the ugly side of the boom-bust cycle.  If ever there was a time to start cutting out excesses &#8211; it&#8217;s now.</p>
<p>According to Wikipedia, the Canadian Hansard is &#8220;guided by the principle of avoiding &#8216;repetitions, redundancies and obvious errors&#8217;&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;Repetitions, redundancies and obvious errors&#8221; pretty much sums up Canadian politics.  The House of Commons doesn&#8217;t need a little reshuffling, it needs aggressive down-sizing.</p>
<p>I know what you&#8217;re thinking, how will we know who is Prime Minister if there are no parties from which to determine a majority of support?</p>
<p>Well, we can solve this problem the same way we solve other problems in this modern &#8220;democracy&#8221; &#8211; have the appointed vice-regal representative of the monarch of the United Kingdom, and head of the Church of England, appoint someone.</p>
<p>Is Stephane Dion available?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114485</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 00:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114485</guid>
		<description>But philosophically, those are second intention votes not first intention votes. I don&#039;t see any way of reconciling the idea that somebody who takes &quot;overflow&quot; votes is being given the same endorsement as the winner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But philosophically, those are second intention votes not first intention votes. I don&#8217;t see any way of reconciling the idea that somebody who takes &#8220;overflow&#8221; votes is being given the same endorsement as the winner.</p>
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		<title>By: steve81</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114484</link>
		<dc:creator>steve81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 21:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114484</guid>
		<description>If the Government loses the confidence of the House, why not let the House vote for a new Government? Let the MPs decide which party or coalition should form Government instead of calling an election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the Government loses the confidence of the House, why not let the House vote for a new Government? Let the MPs decide which party or coalition should form Government instead of calling an election.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114483</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 21:09:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114483</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s where the damnable fractions that everybody hates come in.  (They wouldn&#039;t be needed if this sort of situation didn&#039;t occur, and STV would be that much easier to explain to people).

If the winning candidate got 40% of the vote when they only needed 20%, the half of the vote they needed is &quot;parked&quot; and the other half is transferred on to other candidates as per the preferences on those ballots.  That ensures that the power and influence of the voters who backed that candidate isn&#039;t diminished just because they wound up choosing Mr. Popular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s where the damnable fractions that everybody hates come in.  (They wouldn&#8217;t be needed if this sort of situation didn&#8217;t occur, and STV would be that much easier to explain to people).</p>
<p>If the winning candidate got 40% of the vote when they only needed 20%, the half of the vote they needed is &#8220;parked&#8221; and the other half is transferred on to other candidates as per the preferences on those ballots.  That ensures that the power and influence of the voters who backed that candidate isn&#8217;t diminished just because they wound up choosing Mr. Popular.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114482</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 20:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114482</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s say that under STV, the winning candidate received 40% of the vote and the runners up each received 20% of the vote in a four-member riding. How is it fair that each member should receive a single vote in the legislature?  Clearly the other MPPs should receive votes worth only half the power and influence of what the winner received.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s say that under STV, the winning candidate received 40% of the vote and the runners up each received 20% of the vote in a four-member riding. How is it fair that each member should receive a single vote in the legislature?  Clearly the other MPPs should receive votes worth only half the power and influence of what the winner received.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Greenan</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-1/#comment-114481</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Greenan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 20:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114481</guid>
		<description>I would submit that you are extremely naive if you think that the electoral status quo in Canadian federal politics will ever &quot;towards a system of deliberative governance where people have more say in the formation and implementation of policy&quot;.

In my view, that is a legitimate goal, but one that would require a move to what Arend Lijphart calls &quot;consensus democracy&quot;, which he associates with proportional representation systems like STV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would submit that you are extremely naive if you think that the electoral status quo in Canadian federal politics will ever &#8220;towards a system of deliberative governance where people have more say in the formation and implementation of policy&#8221;.</p>
<p>In my view, that is a legitimate goal, but one that would require a move to what Arend Lijphart calls &#8220;consensus democracy&#8221;, which he associates with proportional representation systems like STV.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Greenan</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-1/#comment-114480</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Greenan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 20:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114480</guid>
		<description>And Phil, it is almost certain that under STV in Canada, you will see parties running no more candidates than they can see themselves conceivably winning. That&#039;s certainly the case in Ireland and Northern Ireland.

So in your example of a Calgary 7-seat riding, you&#039;d like see the Conservatives running 5-6 candidates and the other parties (which would surely include a option to the right of the Conservatives to provide even more voter choice) running no more than 2 (unless they felt a surge of popularity might allow them to win 3.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Phil, it is almost certain that under STV in Canada, you will see parties running no more candidates than they can see themselves conceivably winning. That&#8217;s certainly the case in Ireland and Northern Ireland.</p>
<p>So in your example of a Calgary 7-seat riding, you&#8217;d like see the Conservatives running 5-6 candidates and the other parties (which would surely include a option to the right of the Conservatives to provide even more voter choice) running no more than 2 (unless they felt a surge of popularity might allow them to win 3.</p>
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		<title>By: jordanbeau</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-2/#comment-114479</link>
		<dc:creator>jordanbeau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 20:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114479</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe fixed election dates would be appropriate for our for of responsible government.  As the executive branch (Cabinet and PM) is drawn directly from the legislature it is imperative that they maintain the confidence of that legislative body.  If they cannot maintain this confidence an election must be called.  Our form of government, in this sense, is much different than the US where there is a separation of executive and legislative powers (each branch has democratic legitimacy independent of the other) and fixed elections are suitable and appropriate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe fixed election dates would be appropriate for our for of responsible government.  As the executive branch (Cabinet and PM) is drawn directly from the legislature it is imperative that they maintain the confidence of that legislative body.  If they cannot maintain this confidence an election must be called.  Our form of government, in this sense, is much different than the US where there is a separation of executive and legislative powers (each branch has democratic legitimacy independent of the other) and fixed elections are suitable and appropriate.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/07/a-vote-that-really-counts/comment-page-1/#comment-114478</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 19:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tearsheet.ca/dev/?p=3340#comment-114478</guid>
		<description>Dear Sean,
There is no accountabality now as Gary Lunn knows very well.  He has done nothing for his riding, will not answer calls, refuses to get envolved with anything and yet the party machine combined with the make up of the rich business people in his riding keep getting him back again and again inspite of lack of majority of votes in his riding. He usually manages about 38%.
Under STV he might get back again once but there  would be someone else from the riding against whom he would be measured and that would be the end of his free ride.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Sean,<br />
There is no accountabality now as Gary Lunn knows very well.  He has done nothing for his riding, will not answer calls, refuses to get envolved with anything and yet the party machine combined with the make up of the rich business people in his riding keep getting him back again and again inspite of lack of majority of votes in his riding. He usually manages about 38%.<br />
Under STV he might get back again once but there  would be someone else from the riding against whom he would be measured and that would be the end of his free ride.</p>
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