John Geddes

John Geddes

John Geddes writes on politics and policy, with occasional reporting and comment on arts and culture.

It's not how big the deficit grows, it's how long it lasts

by John Geddes on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:41pm - 32 Comments

It's not how big the deficit grows, it's how long it lastsFinance Minister Jim Flaherty’s admission that the federal deficit is metastacizing to $50 billion or more this year, way up from the $33.7 billion he projected in his Jan. 27 budget, isn’t really all that disturbing—if you believe such staggering deficits won’t last more than a couple of years.

After all, deficits are supposed to be good for what ails our economy right now. The global policy response to the recession was to embrace the Keynesian fix: inject government stimulus to shore up the economy until spending by companies and consumers picks up again.

But that’s a prescription for bad times. When the slump is over, the deficits are supposed to shrink again, hopefully disappear. And exactly how our federal government will get back in the black is not entirely clear.

Consider our recent experience of a transition from deficit to surplus—the Liberal government’s success back in the late 1990s in banishing the deficits that had become a way of life in Ottawa. Conventional wisdom will tell you it was tough spending restraint imposed by Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin that did the trick. In fact, revenue increases played a much bigger role.

And looking ahead, it’s an uncertain revenue outlook that makes the current government’s plunge into deep deficits quite troubling. First, here’s what you need to know about the 1995 and 1999 period when the Liberals balanced the books: federal spending shrank 5 per cent over those years, while revenues soared 26 per cent, including a stunning 39 per cent rise in corporate and personal income taxes.

So, as Prime Minister Stephen “Maynard” Harper puts its faith in record deficits, can his government rely on tax revenues, in the better days ahead, to again rebound robustly enough to repair a tattered balance sheet?

After putting some questions to Derek Burleton, director of economic analysis for the TD Bank Financial Group, I’m not at all confident revenue growth will be big enough this time to do the trick. Here’s part of our telephone conversation:

Q. Now we know deficits are going to be far bigger than we were told only a few months ago. How believable are the government’s plans for keeping them temporary?

A. It’s probably going to prove more challenging to rein in the deficit than the government indicated in the budget. I think the deficits will come in higher and over the longer term the revenue growth is going to be slower.

Q. You mean the anticipated rebound in corporate and personal tax revenues might not be as strong as expected?

A. Look at the [Jan. 27] budget. They banked on revenue growth in the order of seven per cent on average over the medium term. That’s lofty. I’d feel more comfortable with something in the realm of five, five and a half per cent.

Q. But as the economy starts expanding again, why not expect the sort of boom in the tax haul that the previous Liberal government enjoyed?

A. In the late 1990s there was the IT bubble, so revenues went through the roof. They went through the roof again in the first half of this decade, and even beyond that, as commodities were growing. Then you add on top of that resilience in other sectors, and it’s been an excellent growth streak for government revenues since the late 1990s, with the exception of a couple of off years.

Q. And you don’t see similar heady days ahead?

A. The economy could be in for a sub-par growth period over the medium term. I tie it to the U.S., which is our primary trading partner. Don’t get me wrong—I certainly think that we’re better off than the U.S. in many regards, not facing the same challenges in consumer indebtedness, and fiscally we’ll get out of the recession in much better shape.

Still, the U.S. worries me. Three negative things from the U.S. are going to stretch out beyond 2010. All the government borrowing they are going to have to do is going to keep interest rates up, and we can’t separate ourselves from that. The weaker U.S. dollar is going to keep the Canadian dollar up. And just the relatively weaker recovery in the U.S. market. Those are the big three.

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  • RayK

    Quite right.

  • madeyoulook

    Wow. Deficits have consequences! Over to you, perfesser Keynes…

  • Stephen

    To the extent that the size is largely a timing issue in terms of revenues investment yes I would agree. The second one is total yes.

    Add one more thing to the equation, should inflation ignite then the government’s interest expense will start to grow. Part of the “miracle” in the late 90′s was the drop in interest rates. So if we are in an environment where government debt grows while interest costs creep up we have another problem.

    The Us is going to get it big time and the UK I fear is about to get Thatcher like conditions, but there may be a consensus to go through her prescription. We will see. I dont see how Obama is going to tame the deficit and launch significant new program spending, health care. Health care will partially be funded from a swap of reducd company and personal costs with taxes but it is one huge uncertainty.

    At the end of the day who knows. Every recession has a rebound that is unexpeted in its strength or weakness. 74, 80 were unexpectedly weak, 83, 93 and 2001 were unexpectedly strong.

    Who knows what will happen, north korean missles, an attack on Iran, another terrorist attack, or more likely the unknown an unpredicatable Black Swan. A little out of context, but what is our biggest challenge, size or length of the deficit, “Events my dear boy, events”, that will dictate both.

  • YTZ

    John, decreasing government expenditure by ANY amount (especially while the economy grows) is an impressive political feat. Not only do input costs often go up at inflation-like levels, but there is so much pressure not to cut spending for political reasons.

    I take your point on the math – but given trends of recent Conservative and Liberal governments, and choices governments all around the world have made, a 5% cut in government spending is a big home-run. An estimate I saw from September suggested that the Conservative government has increased spending by about 25% overall in their first three years (not sure if you can validate this).

    While 5% doesn’t sound impressive, I’d argue it’s DAMN impressive.

    • Ted

      It’s like a grand slam… when you win 15-2.

  • DR

    What are the odds on the private forecasters underestimating the Federal government’s revenues? They never seem to take into account the distribution of income growth.

  • Brad999

    MR. HARPER, you are telling people to continue spending money like normal to keep the economy going but if your have no income you don’t have money to spend on goods. As long as there are hundreds of thousands of Canadians out of work the economy will continue to shrink and spending will continue to drop. People need good paying jobs to keep the economy going. It only makes common sense. Mr Harper I suggest you follow the advice I am about to give here and follow it carefully if you want to redeem yourself with all Canadians and save this country. First you should tell (not ask) the International Monetary fund WORLD BANK that you are going to break ranks from the system that obviously doesn’t work and issue one trillion dollar of interest free money to be distributed from the bottom up, meaning a direct issue of money to all Canadians divided equally and NOT distrubuted from above through institutions where it would no doubt be filtered down to nothing by the time it reached the poor.

    Mr HARPER, This is the only way you can fix the mess we are in. Hurry because you don’t have much time left befor the Country’s economy is completely destroyed. The deficit is growing by the second.

    • madeyoulook

      Ahem, Brad, a couple of questions come immediately to mind:

      1) That trillion dollars — one thousand billion — will that come from anywhere real, or are we just firing up the printing presses?

      2) Can we — if only for symbolism’s sake — hire a bunch of helicopters to push all this money out to the people?

      3) Did you even get question number 2? Because, y’know, it is not unreasonable to assume that you and basic economic theory still need to get acquainted.

      • Brad999

        Ya think.? Well I didn’t expect you to get it

        • madeyoulook

          Oh…

          If your prescription to Mr. Harper was pure sarcasm, Brad, then well done. You got me entirely. I tip my hat. The lefty earnestness was particularly poignant, making it completely believable that someone would spew this nonsense out as the correct thing to do.

          I should have seen something was afoot when you argued that “the deficit is growing by the second” to justify this insane suggestion of making the deficit explode in a millisecond instead. My only defense: it is not entirely out of line with rhetoric bouncing around these days.

  • madeyoulook

    Consider our recent experience of a transition from deficit to surplus—the Liberal government’s success back in the late 1990s in banishing the deficits that had become a way of life in Ottawa.

    The Liberal “success” was in part due to partial offloading to the provinces what was provincial responsibility all along. Fine. Good. Kudos. And it took a Liberal government to get it done.

    But.

    The Liberal “success” was also helped by a conscious decision to allow the Canadian dollar to devalue so terribly (you could say our awful debt position also made that somewhat automatic) that we enjoyed our “faux prosperity” of trade surpluses in exchange for a major hit in standard of living / purchasing power of each and every Canadian transacting with Canadian dollars.

    This was the INEVITABLE RESULT of years and years of massive government borrowing. A lesson for our current approach to fiscal management, perhaps? Sure, the USA will surely suffer more pain given its current insanity. “We will hurt, but they’ll hurt even worse,” is, actually, not all that satisfying.

    • Ted

      I think the point MYL to take is that: with a much smaller deficit than the one Harper has created, it took draconian efforts in multiple areas of spending – actual cuts, cuts in transfers, use of surplus EI, Canadian dollar, etc. – PLUS huge revenue increases just to eliminate the deficit

      If it took all of that to eliminate a much smaller deficit, WHAT pray tell is Harper’s plan?

      Well we got a hint today in Parliament. He admitted that if the deficit gets too big, Harper said “we need to raise taxes”.

      Yes. You read that right. Harper’s actual statement in the House today.

      • madeyoulook

        Except for your being a little fast and loose with the word “draconian,” you are right. This coalition-inspired Tory-government-sparing drunken sailor shoveling of our children’s prosperity is insane. A deficit caused by maintaining commitments while revenues temporarily falter is one thing. Nonexistent money out the door faster than anyone can blink is entirely another. And the fact that it is so difficult to kill anything ever started by a government (see your choice of the word “draconian” to describe what happened before, see what happened to Harper when he slowed down the growth in federal arts funding), I do not harbour immense optimism over slaying this beast quickly.

        Taxes up, and-or bullet-biting trimming of government, and-or even worsening debt positions. Inevitable to anyone who can count.

        • Jason

          I don’t know if it was draconian or not, but that is certainly what many said then and since. The point being only that it took massive amounts of planning, calculation, effort, political will in multiple different spending channels and even then it took soaring revenues from Mulroney’s 7% GST AND the higher income and corporate tax rates of the 1990s to finally reign in the deficit. And they didn’t have nearly the deficit Harper has created.

          What is Harper’s plan to reduce his historic record deficit?

          Today he suggested a response for the first time: tax increases will have to happen. Are conservatives happy about Harper’s plan to raise taxes? How much is he going to raise taxes? Whose taxes is he going to raise? Is that all he plans to do?

    • Jenn

      Hey, you could be onto something, MYL! With the American dollar eventually devaluing as more and more countries/people come to grips with just how big that American debt is, we’ll NEED to devalue our dollar just to stay even! So if you can pinpoint just exactly what the Liberals did to get that job done, that could be a good thing. Otherwise, I’m terribly afraid we’ll be on the other side of that coin. Great! Our dollar buys more! Too bad we don’t have one.

  • Andrew (not Potter or Coyne)

    We really need to stop saying ‘It’s ok because the USA is in worse shape.’ The reason, of course, is that the US is barreling toward bankruptcy. We need to think about how future fiscal challenges with the boomers retiring need to be funded, and whether we should pile on $150 billion in debt over the next few years.

    • Jason

      But that’s the entire sum of Harper’s plan for the recession!

      • Katie

        Not the entire sum.

        Apparently he said today “we will need to raise taxes”.

  • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

    It’s not how big the deficit grows, it’s how long it lasts

    How about: It’s not how big the deficit grows or how long it lasts, it’s about whether or not the money is put to good use.

    Nah, that’s just silly. If we adopted that kind of attitude, pundits might have to look at whether or not the money our government spends returns good value to the taxpayer instead of just gossiping about the latest poll or ad campaign.

    • madeyoulook

      Our government cares not a whit about whether the “money our government spends returns good value to the taxpayer.” Rather, what matters is good value to the voter.

      The “average taxes” paid by VOTERS is nowhere near the taxes paid by the average taxpayer. Even the median taxpayer pays in nowhere near what the average taxpayer does. Good value to the taxpayer? Pffft. That fiscal horse left the electoral barn a generation or more ago.

      And therein lies a tricky problem.

      • Dot

        How was Somalia?

        • madeyoulook

          Dunno — did they have any elections lately?

  • Brad999

    Quote “It’s not how big it grows” ???

    OK… If size doesn’t matter that’s news to me ha ha. So I guess we can run the deficit up to any size then. Say 20 billion maybe or 100 billion dollars. Hey it doesn’t matter. Just keep telling yourself it doesn’t matter. The world bank will bail us out or we could just default on our payments. Yeh thats a good idea. Maybe consumers could take a lesson from this and run up their credit cards to the max too. Yeh run up you Master cards and run up your visas it doesn’t matter. I am all for that. Now I am being sarcastic. Could you tell?

    • madeyoulook

      Now I am being sarcastic. Could you tell?

      You mean you weren’t being sarcastic before? Now I’m really confused…

      ;)

    • Jenn

      This is my second theory. All Western governments will declare bankruptcy to each other, and everyone will just start over from scratch. Clean slate, Pfft! all that debt never existed. And since it seems like the most reasonable thing for the G20 (or more) to do and I don’t think anyone can really stop them, that has me worried as well. Since, of course, we’ll be in the best shape comparatively speaking, we’ll get the shaft.

      • Brad999

        Exactly Jenn. Eureeka! You got it. We can either wipe the slate clean for everyone or spend our way out of debt. The second option requires that we don’t use borrowed money for spending (an option that some people don’t seem to get) In effect an new issue of money to wipe the slate clean and pay off the debt. A little money left over for spending to get the economy going would also help. If anyone else has an idea better that this one please reply

        • Stephen

          So the only options are actual default or default by inflation?

  • DianeG

    The U.S. dollar is backed only by the belief that it is worth something, if that belief falters, woe unto all of us.

    • madeyoulook

      … if that belief falters, woe unto all of us.

      DianeG, on that note, it’s really REALLY not looking good. Allegedly capitalist democratic USA is now requiring lessons on economics from COMMUNIST CHINA! And, welcome to Wonderland, Alice, but CHINA IS ACTUALLY RIGHT! See the Telegraph’s “China warns Federal Resrve over ‘printing money.’”

      DATELINE, Beijing and Washington, July 4, 2018: The “hostile takeover” occurred peacefully, without a shot being fired, when Chinese President Xai Mi Peng booked a half hour of prime time on three of the four major TV networks China already owned, and announced “You know, we own 87.8% of you already.” At the hastily arranged Rose Garden press conference, President Limbaugh responded: “Actually, those F’ing ChiComs are close; it’s really only 86.4%. But the larger point is taken. My fellow Americans, the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave is now a nearly wholly-owned subsidiary of Stars and Stripes of Shanghai, Ltd. We will have some sort of signing ceremony, with rice and tea, on the steps of the Capitol tomorrow. Happy Fourth of July, and may God Ble– uh, may the fortunes from the Year of the Dog be with everyone.”

  • Eva

    So yet another Conservative governement getting us into a deficit… and just like the Chrétien Liberals did in the 1990′s so will these Liberals get us out of it by the beginning of the 2010s..

  • Stephen

    does Liberal party history and memory only begin in 1996? How convenient.

  • tobyornotoby

    The Liberals got us out of debt by reducing transfer payments for health, education and social services, and by limiiting EI eligibility. Isn’t that the “attack on social programs” that Liberals say is the Conservative agenda?

    The Chretien-Martin cuts produced real service reductions on the frontlines, and increased child poverty and social inequity with the offloading onto provinces and by default onto municipalities.

    My 30 years of federal voting experience shows that:

    Conservatives are full of sh** when they talk about fiscal responsibility
    Liberals are hypocrites when they talk about social equity

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