Tamil questions that can't be asked

That’s because professional ethnic grievance mongers cry ‘Racist!’ at the drop of a turban

by Mark Steyn on Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:20am - 179 Comments

Tamil questions that can't be askedThe other day, one of the least soft-headed of Canadian columnists, Lorrie Goldstein, wrote a piece in the Toronto Sun called “Protest backlash unearths racism”:

“Let’s not pretend that much of the condemnation of Tamils in Canada for protesting the plight of Tamil civilians in Sri Lanka isn’t racist.

“Any journalist who’s been around knows what’s going on and we have an obligation to speak up.”

I’ve been around. Well, okay, I’ve been nearby, as Mary Tyler Moore liked to say. And, insofar as I feel an obligation to speak up, it’s only to wonder at how far even the remarkably tensile concept of “racism” can be stretched.

First, let us note that his headline is hooey: there is no “protest backlash.” The protesting Tamils shut down a Toronto city block near the U.S. consulate for days, openly supported a terrorist organization banned in Canada, stormed the Gardiner Expressway and brought traffic to a standstill, and may or may not have been responsible for the burning of a Buddhist temple attended by many Sri Lankan Sinhalese. The “backlash,” by contrast, is little more than some irate calls to talk radio by non-Tamil commuters, plus one fellow who flew a plane over Queen’s Park with a banner saying “Protect Canada. Stop the Tamil Tigers.” (Despite reports to the contrary, he’s apparently not being investigated for perpetrating a “hate crime.” So far.) Nevertheless, while failing to supply a single example thereof, Mr. Goldstein objects to “the ranting of many ‘Canadians’ ” on this issue—“Canadians” in scare quotes, presumably, because no real Canadian would be so nakedly Tamilphobic.

What position should the average racist Canadian—or “Canadian,” as Mr. Goldstein would say—take on this subject? An old-school racist (clinging to the purist position usefully distilled in the old English expression “Wogs start at Calais”) might take the view that he couldn’t care less if one bunch of crazy natives sticks it to another bunch of crazy natives on some rinky-dink island in the Indian Ocean. As the then-U.S. secretary of state James Baker famously observed of the disintegrating Yugoslavia, “We don’t have a dog in this fight.”

But, on the other hand, an impeccable multiculturalist might take that position also. For, between the Tamils and the Sinhalese, who are we to judge? Lorrie Goldstein complains that, pre-Gardiner lockdown, Canadians failed to give credit to the Tamil community for its months of peaceful protest. But the peaceful protests had had all the impact they were ever likely to have: right up until the moment when the Sri Lankan army stormed the Tamil Tigers’ last redoubt and killed its leaders, the United States was calling for a ceasefire and the poseurs of the European Union were demanding “war crimes” investigations into each side. Amidst the celebrations that swept Colombo on news of the Tigers’ final liquidation, Sri Lankans nevertheless found time to swarm the British High Commission and burn an effigy of the foreign and commonwealth secretary, David Miliband—a degree of geopolitical celebrity he’s unlikely ever to enjoy again. What sort of deranged mob would take the trouble to construct an effigy of an entirely obscure London cabinet minister? Well, if Mr. Goldstein feels Canadians are Tamilphobic, many Sinhalese feel that Western opinion is profoundly Sinhalphobic.

Hey, but who cares? What happens in Lanka stays in Lanka, right? Er, no. “In the last few days,” complained Haroon Siddiqui in the Toronto Star, “we’ve heard, over and over again, an old Canadian myth: let the immigrants not import their old country troubles to Canada. Except that they always have: the British and the French, to start with . . .”

I suppose it’s possible to type that line with a straight face, if you sincerely think of the British and French as “immigrants” rather than settlers—or, if you prefer, conquerors—building a new land in their own image. But I’m inclined to agree with Mr. Siddiqui’s larger point that the oft-retailed leave-it-in-the-old-country argument is unpersuasive. It’s a feint, a proxy for what a lot of people really feel but can’t quite articulate lest Lorrie Goldstein call them racist.

Like the revelation during the 2006 war with Israel that half the population of Lebanon hold Canadian passports, the Tamil protests were one of those rare moments when the veil lifts and Canadians glimpse the sheer scale of societal transformation. The obvious question prompted by the size of demonstrations in Ottawa and Toronto is: how did Canada acquire that many Tamils? News reports suggesting that Toronto is home to “200,000 Tamils” prompted a lot of pooh-poohing about inflated figures and unreliable statistics. And surely they are. I doubt there are verifiable numbers on the Tamil population of Ontario. But, even if they’re half that 200,000, it would seem to be more Tamils than anyone might reasonably need—or indeed, even if you did need them, more than you could reasonably expect to acquire. A six-figure population of Germans, Russians, Chinese, Indonesians, sure. But Tamils are a small minority (15 per cent or so) of the population of a small island of 20 million people on the other side of the world. Yet Canada has somehow managed to preside over a bigger population transfer than the British did when they ran both Sri Lanka and India and imported a massive Tamil population from the mainland to work on tea plantations. The largest Tamil city in Sri Lanka is Jaffna, population 85,000. Is Toronto now the largest Tamil city in the world? And, if so, why?

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  • Matt W.

    Are those examples of racism?

    Is it racist if I say I don’t care about some civil war half way around the world, but I do care about getting to work on time?

    That seems to be the about the sum of “ugly displays of racism”, so what would be the non-racist way to express indifference to this civil war or is indifference itself racist?

    • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

      Kate McMillan lives a thousand miles away from the Gardiner Expressway and I doubt its closure on a Sunday night backed up traffic all the way to Delisle Saskatchewan. And those weren’t the only examples, they were just examples from people Mark has given two thumbs up to.

      so what would be the non-racist way to express indifference to this civil war

      How about simply saying, “I’m indifferent to this civil war,” and then showing your indifference by not howling that those brown skinned people protesting in Toronto are terrorists supporting, criminal welfare bums who are using their children as human shields and should go back where they came from.

      • Maureen

        A lot of what both Kate and Kathy say is intended to be provocative – why? Because as a society, we have given into the political correct view that anything negative said against a group is to run the risk of being called racist to shut down all debate. Kathy is quite open and has stated – ‘go ahead, call me a racist – now do you have anything of substance to contribute to the discussion or are you just going to continue to call me names?” Tamils in Sri Lanka and in Canada do have a lot to be called on the carpet for – including their support for a terrorist organization which perfected the suicide bomber and the use of civilians as human shields. But the media and the ‘enlightened elites’ are unwilling or unable to confront Tamils with those facts and are willing to accept anything Tamils in Canada say as the gospel. Kate and Kathy (along with a lot of others) are unwilling to do that. So we will be called racist, all discussion stops and we go back to accepting everything the ‘oppressed’ and the elites tell us (because clearly we are just too stupid to figure it out for ourselves!).

        • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

          What a load of hogwash. These same two twits have absolutely no problem throwing the anti-semite label at anyone who says basically the same types of things they say about Jews. They also don’t have a problem flinging around the anti-American canard or accusing people of being anti-Catholic bigots. If they were truly just rebelling against political correctness they wouldn’t engage in it as ferociously as they do.

        • Derek Pearce

          What if I were to say to Kate or Kathy “shut yer pieholes, get pregnant, and get back in the kitchen you slut bitches.” Would that be merely being “provocative”? Or would it be possible to disagree with them without resorting to sexism? Why can’t they ask legitimate questions without the “go back where you came from” rhetoric– rhetoric, Maureen, that is not “anything of substance to contribute to the discussion” because it is “calling names.” This was one of the more self-defeating arguments I’ve read in a while.

          As for Steyn, thumbs-down to this column. Not nearly enough bon-mots. Instead of focusing on legitimate questions– Why are Tamils protesting only now that they’ve lost? Don’t Tamil-Canadians realize that the larger Canadian society as a whole is unsupportive because of the tactics of the Tigers?– he throws in his usual claptrap with wogs n chavs blah blah blah. The only interesting thing he mentions is the apparent lack of attachment to Canada the children or grandkids of immigrants seem to have. That’s worth exploring from all angles– and no, not just from a Torstar bleeding-heart-throw-money perspective– but also not just from a being-multicuturally-sensitive-means-you-hate-your-country perspective either. Silly me, Steyn usually is quite funny, but never nuanced, so what was I thinking…

        • Minaka

          Derek Pearce draws a crooked line meant to be a parallel:

          What if I were to say to Kate or Kathy “shut yer pieholes, get pregnant, and get back in the kitchen you slut bitches.” Would that be merely being “provocative”? Or would it be possible to disagree with them without resorting to sexism? Why can’t they ask legitimate questions without the “go back where you came from” rhetoric–

          Dissing women for their argument on any topic just because they are women is not equivalent to the Tamil situation. Demonstrating Tamils are saying they are shattered about the situation in their home country and demanding that other Canadians to do something about it. It is completely legitimate to say that we are not interested and if you feel so strongly about it, instead of inflicting discomfort on us, you should go back and put a shoulder to the wheel yourselves.

          It is not a case of Tamils say, demonstrating against Catholic school funding or the seal hunt and being told “Go back where you came from”.

          • http://www.savedarfur.org Sophia Geffros

            Or… they are fully Canadian, born here, etc. Suddenly asking Canada to do something about the massive humanitarian crisis just seems to me to be the obligation every Canadian, Tamil and not.

        • Andre Hattingh

          Surely calling any group ‘racist’ tars the callers with the same brush?

      • brick tamlin

        “those brown skinned people protesting in Toronto are terrorists supporting, criminal welfare bums who are using their children as human shields.”

        So the truth makes you racist (to be fair,only a small few are welfare bums, I’m sure their economic contributions are just as good as any, given their ability to finance terrorism.)
        I certainly don’t think there’s any cause for deportation at all, but honestly, what part of waving terrorist flags and sending money to support them constitutes civil behaviour?

        I say “I’m indifferent to this civil war because the Tamils made their bed, and now they must lie in it.” You cannot resort to force only as a matter of convenience, it is a last resort precisely because it wagers everything on that use of force. You can’t start a fight with a man and then cry foul for being punched in the face.

        • G. Dawson

          The Tamil’s should be allowed to protest, even block roads if they want. Of course, they have to deal with the consequences of such action. In this case it means attention at the expense of public disfavour. Saying, “I’m indifferent to your cause, don’t block my road!” is a perfectly reasonable response. That is easily coupled with, “go back to where you came from”. I wouldn’t say this is racist as I think a similar response would be given in any similar event. Using the argument, “when white farmer’s block the road nobody complains like this” is not a fair comparison since most Canadians are less indifferent to their cause. However, if we were more indifferent I wouldn’t be surprised to hear a lot of “I don’t care, get off my road, go back to your farm”.

          Honestly, the vast majority of white Canadians don’t give a damn about what your race is, though they do care about how you behave. I would argue that a lot of confusion has developed through the equating of culture and race, which are two different things.

          If a group of people of a certain skin colour have a higher crime rate and a white person has a tendency to assume on first sight that a member of that group, who is perfectly honest and a good person, might be more likely to be dangerous. Is it the white person’s fault for making the assumption (which they are more than willing to correct on closer inspection) or the fault of the many people of that group who have chosen to commit crimes? I would argue both sides are at fault to a degree, but simply labeling the white person a racist doesn’t solve the underlying problem. So my suggestion to all the other minority groups is, behave decently and white people will be more than happy to rethink their assumptions. If you chose to tolerate crime in your communities, then don’t expect anything to change.

          PS I know a Derek Pearce. Does the word paradox mean anything to you?

          • Derek Pearce

            I know the meaning of the word paradox if that’s what you’re asking. But I can’t think of any G. Dawson I know…

            Now then, “behave decently and white people will be more than happy to rethink their assumptions. If you chose to tolerate crime in your communities, then don’t expect…” WTF? Do you like to use the term “uppity negroes” by chance? You might as well have.

            Ok, blocking traffic is technically a crime and depending on your interpretation, maybe not decent behaviour. But following your advice is not the way to draw attention to an issue, especially if you think the issue is a life and death one.

          • Derek Pearce

            oops, should have been a direct reply to G. Dawson above…

          • Derek Pearce

            is the reply function “broken” here or what? that’s two in a row, seeing about a third here… sorry for so many posts in a row…

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            It gets busted when comments are deleted.

          • http://www.macleans.ca Jonathan McKinnell

            Yah there’s not much we can do about that. Would it make sense to delete the replies?
            We are in the works of setting up a new commenting system. That may be an option to delete replies along with the offending comment.

          • Sean Stokholm

            I think yanking the replies along with the original comment would be a good idea – less confusion for later visitors, and less need to go back and explain why a stranded comment once made sense (as some of us have done from time to time).

            Will the new commenting system involve some sort of registration? I’ve often wondered if that would help rein in anonymous nastiness.

          • Critical Reasoning

            Sean, the problem with that idea is that it would be easy for trolls to hijack perfectly good comment threads just to shut them down.

            My personal preference is to simply replace the offending comment with the words This comment has been moderated.

          • Sean Stokholm

            Makes lots of sense CR. I hadn’t considered the power it would hand to certain wankers. Your idea is better – it still keeps everything in reasonable context. (I hope I can use the word ‘wanker’ without getting moderated. :) )

          • G.Dawson

            Fair enough, I noticed you mentioned you live in Toronto, the Derek Pearce I know lives out west.

            In response, behaving decently is simply not tolerating crime and living honestly. Different groups develop different reputations based, I would largely suggest, on their collective actions. If you want your group (and define group in any way you like, it really doesn’t matter) to be largely respected by everyone else, act like an upstanding citizen and encourage others to do the same. If you would rather grind an ax about injustices while continuing to perform morally unjustifyable actions, do you think anything is going to change? And using the term “uppity negroes” is both stupid and counterproductive. It is put down and destroys the value of people making good decisions. I would suggest it reflects terribly on anyone who regards a morally upright person as a “sell-out” while simultaneously griping about past wrongs and how no one is doing anything to improve the situation. The people being called “sell-outs” are the ones who are righting the past wrongs and making a good name for the community. How does anyone expect anything to improve with that sort of attitude? And yet it happens time and time again in various communities (and is certainly not restricted by the colour of people’s skin).

            As far as I’m concerned, people can draw attention to their cause any way they want. Obviously if they commit crimes while doing it they are probably being counterproductive. The Tamil’s were fighting a losing battle here in Canada. There was probably absolutely nothing they could have done that would have changed the countries opinions enough to cause an intercession. The best they could have done was probably to avoid doing damage to their communities’ reputation. The decision they made was out of desperation. As with most desperate moves, they very rarely succeed in doing anything positive.

    • nd

      I wouldn’t say that in itself is racist, but I do think it’s pretty crummy to implicitly value fast-moving traffic over the lives of people, however distant or unrelated to us.

  • non-tamilian

    umm, I think the largest Tamil city in the world might be Chennai, India…and a few of the Tamils in canada also might be from Tamil Nadu, one of the Indian states…

    • Hanoi Paris Hilton

      Steyn didn’t say “largest Tamil city in the world”, which is certainly true of Chennai (the ex-Madras); he said ” largest Tamil city in Sri Lanka”.

      And yes it’s probably true that many, even most of the Tamils in Canada are from Tamil Nadu, India, origins, rather than from embattled Sri Lanka. But misplaced Indian Tamil solidarity with the LTTE led to a cascade of political catastrophes in India itself, ranging from the ill-fated and atrocity-rich military intervention by the Indian Peace-Keeping Forces in S.L. (1987-1990, and widely considered “India’s Vietnam), to the assassination inside India, by an LTTE suicide bomber of Rajiv Gandhi.

    • Jeff S.

      Right on. The Tamils are not confined to Sri Lanka, where there are approximately 3 million of them. There are about 60 million Tamils living in the state of Tamil Nadu, at the southern tip of India.

      Hopefully that helps explain the huge numbers in the diaspora: there are huge numbers in South Asia, too.

  • amabokkobokko

    Well, tonto, presumably that’d be one course of action. Of course then the Tamils, the Sikhs, pretty much everyone but the “Red Indians” (now there’s a turn of phrase I have not heard in a long while) would also have to “go back home” as you so politely put it. And while you’re at it, I guess the Pakistanis, Jamaicans, Indians and so on woud be forced to return to their “aboriginal homelands’ as well, and … leave Europe for the Europeans! That’s precisely the kind of “final solution” people like Steyn are trying to avoid (or have you already forgotten Yugoslavia?)

    You sound like a hardened Nazi-Party hack there, mate…. But I rather suspect you’re a J-school star student!

    • tonto

      you sound like a moron if not a neocon(or both)….as I was trying to point out the inherent hypocrisy in his argument, but you didnt see it, or dont want to.

      • Prasanna

        What’s racist about asking Tamil Tiger supporters to go back home or get out of Canada? Hypocrisy is the Tamil Tiger supporters turning a blind eye to the fact that the Tamil Tigers were holding civilians against their will as a human shield. Noooo…they wont protest that..but they blocked our streets and held us to ransom if we didn’t stop the war against a banned terror group and took them off the list of terrorist.

        Didn’t realise the terrorist could hide behind the racist card to avoid condemnation for their actions. But they have.

        Residents of a city, black, white, red, yellow, all have criticised these protests. It has nothing to do with racism. Goldstein is a mere Muppet in the larger scheme of things.

        • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

          If you don’t understand how telling someone that is a visible minority to go back where they came from is racist then I seriously doubt anyone could explain it to you.

          • Markus

            Oh, brother! His side having lost the argument, Robert McRighteous declares the argument irrelevant because those who argue against him are morally inferior. Since you are unable to understand, I will translate to Ignoramish for you: What the supporters of these “revolutionaries” are doing is wrong and what they’re supporting is evil. So saying “knock it off or go home” is a perfectly reasonable (and entirely rhetorical) response to this noisy clamor for injustice. People who believe that third world cultural identity is a ready justification for any kind of self-indulgence are not, if I may sarcastically understate, not being reasonable.

          • ExcuseMe

            Oh the irony. A anti-Semite chastising Kate M and Kathy S over racism.

          • Matt W.

            Robert, just so I understand:

            If these people were say, Austrailians (white ones, just for good measure) that were supporting an Austrailian terrorist organisation (let’s make it a white supremacist terrorist organisation), would it then, be okay for me to tell them to go back where they came from? Does it make a difference if I am black? Does the fact that whites are not a minority make it more or less racist? Or is it not racist at all?

            Steyn seems to think that charges of racism are just a way to shut down a debate. I ask these questions because you and other posters here seem to be declaring “Racism! End of debate.”

          • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

            If these people were say, Austrailians (white ones, just for good measure)

            To my knowledge, telling a bunch of white people to go back where they came from has never been used as a racial slur in Canada, Matt. That might be the case in nations where white people are a visible minority, but here it isn’t.

            What many people don’t understand is that context and history play an important part of determining what is or isn’t bigotry. For example, telling a Jew to go fish pennies out of pond is undoubtedly bigoted; anti-semitic to be precise. Telling someone to go fish pennies out of a pond isn’t inherently bigoted though. If you told a Chinese person to go fish pennies out of a pond it wouldn’t engender the same accusation of bigotry. Why? Because the former example invokes the stereotype of a “cheap Jew” and that has a long history of being used to stir hatred against them whereas no such stereotype of a Chinese person exists.

            So telling a group of white people in Canada to go back where they came from does not carry the same baggage as telling visible minorities to go back where they came from. I would consider it ill mannered and dismissive to say such a thing though.

          • Maureen

            Clearly Robert you have an agenda to push here, but you are using a variation of calling someone racist – instead you put people down by suggesting that they are too stupid and that no one could explain it to them – that is just another form of calling people racist to shut down debate. Clearly, YOU cannot explain it, but that may be more of a reflection of your skills/understanding of the issues rather than the person’s ability to understand your position.

          • Matt W.

            To the best of my knowledge Robert, that has never been used as a racial slur towards Tamils in Canada. I don’t believe that telling people who support terrorists to “go home” is a racial slur. Regardless of your skin colour.

            If I understand, you and I would both tell my hypothetical Austrailian terrorism supporters to go home, where only I would tell Tamil terrorism supporters to go home.

            Which of us is the racist?

          • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

            To the best of my knowledge Robert, that has never been used as a racial slur towards Tamils in Canada.

            Not specifically, but it has been used as an attack on visible minorities in general.

            I don’t believe that telling people who support terrorists to “go home” is a racial slur.

            First of all, your blanket accusation that all those people are terrorist supporters does as much to shut down any debate as blanket accusations of racism. Secondly, your hiding behind that blanket accusation.

          • Matt W.

            Sorry Robert, that doesn’t wash.

            I’m not the rally going sort, but if I were, as soon as a group started to chant “Death to the [insert ethnic group here]” or started to wave the flag of a terrorist organisation; either they leave or I do.

            I don’t believe all Tamils support the Tigers, but if you go to a rally and stand shoulder to shoulder with those who do, you help to advance their agenda and I oppose you.

            I have made no blanket accusation and am not hiding behind anything, I’m just trying to figure out the rules to being PC. The standard set by many poster’s here makes me a racist, though I don’t feel like one. I do not feel superior to anyone due to my ethnicity, nor do I feel anyone is inferior to me due to theirs.

          • http://ljordao@uwo.ca Leonardo

            Racism is the mistreatment of a human being which is primarily caused by the perpetrator’s perception of the victim’s race. If the mistreatment of a visible minority results primarily from his brattish behaviour, then you do not have an example of racism. More importantly, if the mistreatment of a visible majority results primarily from the perpetrator’s perception of his race, then you do have an example of racism. This is plain common sense. I am not making this up. The poorly concocted definition of racism is yours, which can be traced back to the profoundly dishonest effort of many tenured professors to twist the meaning of a shaming word so as to make it unusable by their political oponents.

          • Ceeger

            And with this comment, Mr. McClelland pretty much proves the entire thesis of Steyn’s article.

        • Adam Moscoe

          I completely and utterly agree to your points. These protests must stop. If Tamil Canadians support a terrorist organization then Tamil Canadians are also terrorists. The Tamil Tigers have killed nearly 4000 people in the last year, pioneered the use of women suicide bombers, and forced children to become child soldiers. They are considered terrorists by the United States, The European Union, Australia, The United Nations and Canada. Join my facebook page where I am attempting to gather as many Canadians who want the protests to stop and our streets cleared. Go to http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1827696452&ref=name#/pages/Stop-Protesting-in-Canada/85615011957?ref=mf

      • kemosabe

        Hi ho, Tonto – even the Red Indians didn’t sprout from the ground here – guess they’d have to return to Asia, or maybe they’d just rather return to their original utopian state before the palefaces came. Eyeglasses, fillings, and TV’s can be turned in at the customer service counter; now be nice to each other – just like you were 500 years ago when your idylls were interrupted.

        Who’s the hypocrite?

  • Whitehall

    I would take issue with Steyn on the “who cares” issue.

    Apparently, aid from the Red Chinese government was essential in the winning military effort. They seem to see an advantage to their government in getting involved. Will we see a Chinese naval base in the middle of the Indian Ocean before long?

    How that affects the reaction of the Canadian government to the Tamil demonstrations in Toronto I wouldn’t hazard a guess.

    • sf

      So, are you implying Canada should have taken a side? Which one? Do you like the Sinhalese or the Tamils?

      • Whitehall

        The point is that one great power took a side and will be expecting payback – a naval base.

        The US could have sided with the Sinhalese and both pre-empted the ChiComs and gotten our own goodies. Of course, the ChiComs don’t mind dissing Muslims while the US is too “delicate” these days.

        So yes, the US should have helped the legitimate government in exchange for future payback.

        Canada, having little or no navy, had only the indirect interest in backing its best ally, the US, in preference to the Chinese. Without US leadership, Canada had “no dog in that fight.”

        As to local Tamil demonstrations in Toronto, you don’t want that. As Steyn pointed out, that’s a sign that you have too loose immigration policy. I remember the Iranians literally fighting each other in the streets of San Francisco after the fall of the Shah.

  • Prasanna

    I don’t know how you can call the open condemnation of members of a terrorist group who disrupt the lives of everyday Canadians, as racist.

    Read this:
    http://bailaman.blogspot.com/2009/05/peaceful-protests-now-weapon-of-choice.html

    And this:
    http://bailaman.blogspot.com/2009/05/dont-call-these-sri-lankan-protesters.html

  • Oh Boy

    “Tamil questions that can’t be asked: That’s because professional ethnic grievance mongers cry ‘Racist!’ at the drop of a turban”

    Who knew Tamil’s wore turbans? Oh, wait. They don’t.

    And if they’re “professional grievance mongers”, that makes Steyn a professional … nah, too easy. Thank goodness Steyn’s career as a theatre critic turned media bigot prepared him so well for meaningful debates about domestic policies and international affairs.

    Ken Whyte, when will you fire this embarrassment?

    • http://ljordao@uwo.ca Leonardo

      When he becomes boring. Don’t hold your breath.

    • nd

      Good old Mark Steyn, ever ready to stand up for the traffic privileges of white (preferably Christian) men!

      • Minaka

        nd posits: “Good old Mark Steyn, ever ready to stand up for the traffic privileges of white (preferably Christian) men!”

        Yep. Because all those people stuck in a Tamil-caused traffic backlog many kilometers long in Toronto in 2009 were white Christian men.

        Earth to nd: Canadian women drive now and whites will be a minority in Toronto in a year or two. Don’t get out of the house much? Still a hippie with no TV?

  • Happy Immigrant

    Thanks for speaking up Mark. My parent’s and I immigrated to Canada 20 years ago, and we love it. We came here because we wanted to experience CANADA, not CHANGE it. If immigrants don’t like it the way it is here, then they should go back to where they came from, as they will not be happy here nor be a positive addition to Canada.

    • Derek Pearce

      The Tamil protsters aren’t protesting that they “don’t like Canada,” they’re protesting because they feel their relatives and friends at home are either a) being ethnically cleansed or b) because even if not the victims of ethnic cleansing, they feel the government of Sri Lanka is actively discrminating them as a minority.

      A few weeks ago, during the Gardiner shutdown, I was at an afternoon party and one uninformed guest said something along the lines of “well, we should all get together and go over to Leslie and Gerard and shut down THEIR traffic and see how they like it,” meaning I presume that “we” means white anglos and “they” means all brown skinned people. Apart from not helping to solve the problem, his statement clearly illustrates the whole “all brown skinned Canadians are REAL Canadians” meme. Admittedly I was a coward & didn’t call him directly on this, only mumbling something like yes, I wonder why there aren’t any counter-protests, but the tone in which I mumbled my response at least gave him pause to think about what he’d blurted out.

      • Micheal

        Why protest in Canada ,what can Canada do about it .Maybe they should protest where it counts in Sri Lanka or better yet fly down to New York and go protest the U.N. and convince them to draft a strongly worded letter.

      • Derek Pearce

        er, should have read “not REAL Canadians…” . Typing faster than I should have…

      • Maureen

        No they are protesting because Canada is not doing ‘something’ to solve the program in Sir Lanka. To paraphrase Dr. Phil – we don’t have a dog in this fight. It’s unfortunate about what was happening, but for the Tamil community to demand that Canada do something and then cause Canadians harm (and yes people were harmed – I have friends in Toronto who were not able to sleep at night because of the noise from the protesters, another friend had to cancel chemo treatments because of the traffic problems – she may really be harmed but we will not know for a couple of years!). And the Tamil community in Canada needed to take a hard look at what their community did to support the Tigers – and don’t give me the crap about how they were forced to give them money – if you are being blackmailed, you have the police to go to. If you are only prepared to stand up for your beliefs if everyone agrees with you then you probably don’t have beliefs worth standing up for.

        • Derek Pearce

          I work two blocks over from University Ave., only half a block down from the sightline of the US consulate. There are residences on this street, and no residences on the one before it or on University. There is no way the protests were loud enough to keep someone awake at night. And all of the hospitals along University have back entrances/side entrances on the surrounding streets, so I call bullshit on your whole “harm” thing.

          I agree that the Tamil community– in the grips of realizing the war was lost– lacked introspection over the methods the Tigers used and that their funding promoted these heinous methods. And as I mentioned elsewhere if peace in itself was a primary concern then they should’ve been protesting years ago rather than trying to stop the war only once their side was about to be conquered.

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            Agreed, Derek. We are practically next-door neighbours and even at the height of the University Ave. protests I found I only became aware of them when I was within a block of University Ave. — because Tamils and police both used the Tim Horton’s at Simcoe & Dundas!

          • sf

            I call bullshit on your call of bullshit. A friend of mine was stuck in a parking garage for two hours because they blocked the exit and the police would not open it. Anyone else who needed to get out of there would have missed whatever appointments they had, whether for chemo or for haircuts.

            Any ambulance, fire truck or police car that had to circumvent the Gardiner would have been harmed.

            Sure, the Tamils were worried, but how on earth does it help to harm Canadians? As it they give a damn about Canadians who need to use the roads. As if they give a damn about their fellow Sinhalese Canadians who have their own stake in this issue.

          • sbt

            Actually, you could hear the banging of the drums on at least one night. However, it pales in comparison to the rest of noise you typically get down here late at night (sirens, jazz music, people leaving the entertainment district, etc.). If the distant thumping of a drum keeps you awake, then you aren’t getting too many good night sleeps.

    • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

      If immigrants don’t like it the way it is here, then they should go back to where they came from, as they will not be happy here nor be a positive addition to Canada.

      Shouldn’t conservatives also go back where they came from since they’re constantly trying to change Canada.

      • Happy Immigrant

        The same could be said of all political parties not just the conservatives.

      • Maureen

        Again Robert – your arguments are lame and points only to your lack of an argument and/or ability to present a well-developed thesis – instead your throw out insults. In doing so, you are only demonstrating the point that people are labeled as racist in order to shut down debate.

        • http://myblahg.com Robert McClelland

          Excellent rebuttal, Maureen. Sorry, did I say rebuttal, I meant ad hominem attack.

      • horatio dunesbury

        actually by definition conservatives are supposed to “conserve” traditions. if wanting to change canada was a valid reason to kick someone out – and its not, it insane in fact, and that’s not why people are upset at the tamils – it would be the left that would have to go.

      • Markus

        I’m detecting a pattern here, and it occurs to me that there is a misunderstanding. Specifically, two different definitions of racism are being used.

        One definition, used by most of the people posting here is: “The belief that certain people, by virtue of their ancestry or cultural heritage, are inherently inferior (or superior).

        The other definition, preferred by RM. is: “Anything which certain people who may plausibly consider themselves victims of racism may find offensive.”

        • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

          There is a third definition: “Picking up whatever stray bits of information you can use to portray certain people, by virtue of their ancestry or culture heritage, as ridiculous or dangerous.”

          • Markus

            That’s not a definition, but accusation, of racism.

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            Uh, no, it’s a description of one technique people may use to satisfy their inner racist. Whether it fits a particular scenario must be decided by evaluating the portrayal for its accuracy. But almost all attempts to ridicule or spread fear about people by virtue of their ancestry or cultural heritage are, upon examination, shown to be empirically invalid.

      • sf

        Isn’t that what you normally say about Jews? Of all people around here, the racist is you.

  • Wayne

    Since when are the Tamil a race? I thought they were a sub-culture of and related to the Sinhalese or is it Ceylonese or whatever.

  • Jerseyman

    All this highminded PC nonsense is inherently racist to the core.

    What you are saying is that all the red, brown, yellow and black people are victims of the oppressive ( patriarchal, misogynist, homophobic, etc. ) white power structure and therefore cannot be expected to act like 21st century adults out here in the world of our guilty civilization.

    So we make room in our superior hearts for sympathy for ever tribalist cause on earth ( except our own, because we after all have outgrown such atavistic tendencies- except Americans of the southern or Christian persuasion that is) and that sympathy is extended regardless of the bestial behaviour these racialist, tribalist, religiously fanatical natives might exhibit. Could any atitude be more racist?

  • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

    I think the commentary here pretty much refutes Mark Steyn’s point. It may not be racist to think the Tamils are being a nuisance, but a lot of racists dislike the Tamils. What’s interesting is that, while theoretically distinct, practically speaking anti-anti-racism and racism are often found together. Cf. the Steynettes.

    • Matt W.

      Jack,

      Racists don’t like anybody, and the point Steyn is making is that to express the opinion that Tamils are being a nuisance is a sure way to be declared a racist. Far from the commentary refuting this point, posters like Robert and Tonto seem to be confirming his thesis.

      As far as “anti-anti-racism and racism are often found together.” goes: You mean like anti-zionism and anti-semitism?

      • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

        The problem is that Steyn delights in deliberately tapdancing along the line between anti-anti-racism and racism, essentially to make the real racists among his readers (yes, there are many) feel better about themselves. Few people, after all, revel in actually being racists, though they enjoy resenting people on the basis of race.

        As to anti-anti-racism and racism often being found together, and that being like anti-zionism and anti-semitism, yes, I think that’s a good analogy, though for my money there is no real need to bother with being anti-anti-racist, whereas, even though Israel-Palestine relations are rather boring in and of themselves, they do have a profound impact on global politics, and one is therefore more inclined to be interested in them than one is in petty bickering chez nous. Thus many more people are pro-zionist and anti-zionist than, really, they should bother being, so there are more people who are merely anti-zionists than anti-zionist-and-anti-semites. Not all anti-anti-racists are racists, but relatively fewer non-racists bother being anti-anti-racists.

        • Matt W.

          Being a fan of Steyn, I have read much of what he has written. While I have to agree that he does enjoy “tapdancing”, I do not believe it has anything to do with a racist fanbase. In fact I’ve never read him as racist.

          For certain many of his themes (particularly Islam and demography) are racist sounding to many of us who’ve been spoonfed multiculturalism since childhood, but the fact is it’s impossible to discuss issues like that honestly without causing some hurt feelings. Steyn’s ideas may be incorrect, but if so can be disproven without crys of racism.

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            “Steyn’s ideas may be incorrect, but if so can be disproven without cries of racism.”

            Why bother? He’s already meta. He may always have been meta for all I know. That is, he writes about how much he hates what other people say, particularly on the politically correct left. He’s not presenting any ideas, he’s attacking other people’s ideas . . . and those people are in turn attacking other people’s ideas. Whence all the stale air.

            If you want evidence of the racist fanbase, look around you in these comments. They have nothing to do with Sri Lanka or the Tamil Tigers or with whatever the Tamil protesters were hoping for. It’s just the same old litany of complaint about non-white people, to be dusted off any time Steyn mentions immigration. That is his fanbase. And quite obviously he writes for them. Their spleen is his strength and, tragically, by now his raison d’être.

          • Gaunilon

            “he writes about how much he hates what other people say, particularly on the politically correct left. He’s not presenting any ideas, he’s attacking other people’s ideas”

            One wonders what this implies about people who only write about how much they hate what Steyn says…

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            It implies that we’re all howling at the moon. Anything else you were wondering?

    • sf

      practically speaking anti-anti-racism and racism

      Acutally, it’s the opposite. It’s the anti-racists who invented affirmative action, which is racist. It’s the anti-racists who insist on treating people differently based on skin colour. It’s the anti-racists that promote racism because they’ve build an industry opposing it, and for them, the worst thing to happen would be the disappearance of it.

      • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

        That would also leave the anti-anti-racists with nothing to bark at.

      • kc

        sf
        Afirmative action is racist. Why do you even bother? Is your last name Pavlov by any chance?

        • sf

          No. And AF is racist. Obviously.

  • Minaka

    There are almost 200 countries in the world and even more cultures, most of them represented in Canada especially Toronto as possibly the most multicultural city in the world.

    It is extremely narcissistic not to mention unrealistic of any culture that has immigrated to Canada to expect this country to right the wrongs of their countries of origin or even to care about them. Since we are obliged to be non-discriminatory in all ways, 1/200th of our caring doesn’t amount to much and the attempt to get a bigger share could be construed as discriminatory. It appears that Sudanese in Darfur with half a million dead and millions displaced at the hands of Muslim Arab militias are higher on the suffering scale than the squeaky wheel Tamils who have selected themselves as most deserving of Canadian aid and who try to enforce their decision by taking hostage entire sections of Toronto. Such ethnocentrism and tactics are un-Canadian.

    We have every right to be as fierce in defense of Canadian culture (and it is more than tolerating everyone with an axe to grind) as they are of theirs. It is not racist to point out the above realities to someone of another culture or race. It is disappointing that Lori Goldstein who is usually more clear-eyed has fallen for this canard.

    Let Canadians with dual loyalties make private efforts to aid what they still appear to consider their “home” countries with their own monies and whatever they can raise outside their community on a voluntary basis. Leave our government out of it, whose priority must rightfully be our mutual well being HERE. Those who support terrorist activities deserve all criticism directed their way whatever the color of the critic and it is mild compared to the deportation they actually merit.

    I say this as an “old school” immigrant. When did the immigrant role change from one of appreciation for a new chance in what they voted for with their feet as a better country? When did it change to pressuring the government and using the new country as a base for succoring the old country? And why do we have to respect this attitude which is parasitic and weakens our own simply because it emanates from non-whites?

    Robert McClelland can keep his hair shirt of white guilt and low attempts to flagellate others into wearing it by unjustifiably smearing them as racist. His favoritism of anyone non-white even past the point of letting them break the law is the racism of lowered expectations. Our expressways would be a parking lot if every minority with a grievance (and in Toronto that will include whites in the near future) can commandeer them at whim.

    Conservatives have the same expectations of everyone, regardless of color and creed, that they be loyal and productive Canadians who obey the rule of law. Conservatives would make the same criticisms of any white Brits who arrived on our shores and disrupted downtown Toronto for days on end to trumpet their desire for a white homeland. It’s liberals who have double standards and encourage the never-ending grinding of axes in what was once “the peaceable kingdom”.

  • Joe from TO

    The main point by Steyn is that talking about groups is getting so complicated that even someone like Warren Kinsella (who is not a racist) can make a joke which is pounced upon as evidence of a racist attitude.
    The comment about telling the female bloggers to get pregnant and back into the kitchen is amusing. We are in Canada where women have the choice to do anything. Yes that’s a sexist comment but so what? Lots of sexist jokes fly around the internet and are amusing but we are too scared to say these things out loud. What is happening to our country?
    I am an immigrant and why would I want to scream about my old country’s horrors? Don’t I owe the Canadians enough for letting me have a home, education for my children, health care for my entire family, etc. Why would I want to upset the day? Is there not another way for groups to express themselves in a more positive way without taking other people’s public space and rattling their serenity? Isn’t Canada supposed to be bland – let’s leave it that way.
    I look forward to the time when we can get beyond group identities and be able to say that public protest is just a pain.

  • Micheal

    Good point Joe

  • Rob H

    Mark’s point is that Canada’s policy of telling immigrants to keep their “culture” and not worry about adopting Canadian culture is ok, and will even provide their “community leaders” with money to do so (as long as they load up the buses on election day for the local Liberal member).

    Immigrants need to learn (for a start) that they must adopt Canadian values (notwithstanding the Liberals and NDP) of primacy of the individual in society, freedom of speech, equality of men and women and separation of religion from the rule of law.

  • Revnant Dream

    Mark Stein:

    wouldn’t the simplest solution be to carve a Tamil homeland out of the GTA?

    Whiz bang idea. I do dispute the location though. I figure Caledonia would suite the temperament of Tamils more.
    Than we can have another protected group accost the other for land. While the police gibber on who to persecute. Your bloody right as well in my opinion about the shock to Canadians on how we where all astonished to learn. That a large chunk of Lebanon’s population have Canadian passports. Most claiming to be Canadians. With us, the Canadian workers paying the tab for foreigners yet again..

    Personally I think most Canucks are sick to death of immigrants of convince. The users who live in homelands on our EI or other benefits. Than whine when there group is displeased, or needs even more benefits . If not to change our laws & customs to suite themselves. Use our own laws with a vile Inquisition to shake down the born Inhabitants for the liberal vote machine. To squeeze by force policies to engender more of the like special privileges. All this we realize was policy to keep Liberals in authority, while changing the Country beyond recognition just to keep supremacy. We all see the results. I just wonder when the real back lash starts. The naivety of these Nation builders turned into destroying our culture that we have elected is astounding. Just as an aside, I wonder which would win. A Native or Tamil in an HRC? Not against people who really want a new start. They are few & far between in this climate though.
    In the end I think a lot of people have come to the conclusion this is not about immigration anymore. Or white Guilt. Its about invasion in the guise of migration. What about Canadians cultural survival? Crickets chirping?
    JMO

  • Gaunilon

    I used to think “racist” was an insult. That was when I associated it with people like Bull Connor, Adolf Hitler, and Robert Byrd.

    Now that it regularly gets applied to millions of ordinary Canadians, most of the commenters in this thread, and anyone who thinks the Tamil protesters should get lost, I am starting to think the meaning has changed considerably. I suspect it’s no longer a pejorative, although it is supposed to sound like one.

    • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

      Rather like “anti-semitic.” Nevertheless, both “racism” and “anti-semitism,” even if they’re often misapplied, refer to real spiritual diseases with which one should not be associated.

      • Gaunilon

        “spiritual diseases with which one should not be associated”

        Well, that’s reassuring then. Even the pc left has certain moral strictures to impose on everyone, it’s just a different set. Tearing the limbs off an unborn child: good. Telling people blocking the highway to leave: bad. Got it.

        • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

          Sorry, I keep forgetting you mistake yourself for God.

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            Hint: if the first thing that pops into your head when someone says that anti-semitism and racism are faults is that you’re against abortion, it’s time to see a psychotherapist.

          • Gaunilon

            My ilk mistake Steyn for God, remember? Or perhaps you think I am Steyn… (preens ostentatiously)

          • Gaunilon

            I always thought a priest was the recommended option for “spiritual diseases”. That’s why I came to you Saint Mitchell the Pious Anti-Racist Crusader in the Racist Hotbed Canada.

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            Your penance is to read the Sermon on the Mount.

      • Carsten Westermarck

        Pathologizing dissent to racial dispossession and replacement is an old and shabby tactic; and no longer working, my friend.

  • SLB

    When I grew up we learned that Canada was a “melting pot”… now its a “mosiac”. When did that change?

    We’re no longer allowed to have opinions? Why aren’t all immigrants grateful for the opportunities they’re given here? What about Canadian culture?

    I wish I had answers… I’m just tired of being afraid of opening my mouth in the place I was born, and my parents were born, and their parents were born… etc for many generations. People used to come here and work hard and contribute and be happy. Now we give ‘new Canadians’ more money every month than we give seniors who’ve lived and worked their whole lives here. Does that sound right?

    Call me racist if you want… even though I believe everyone has a right to live in peace, and be fed and healthy, no matter where they’re from. But if you’re not happy with what Canada has to offer, get it somewhere else.

  • http://www.savedarfur.org Sophia Geffros

    As one may guess from my not-overly WASP name, my family are second-generation immigrants. (my parents, that is) I take issue with the many, many comments on here of the ‘why don’t you all just go home’ type. Immigrants make many contributions to Canadian society- indeed, if everyone who has every immigrated to here (or their ancestors) at some point, the only people left in Canada would be Aboriginals, and even that is debatable as they also immigrated across the land bridge.
    Now, as to the Tamils: no matter how much you love your new home, you have every right to be concerned about the plight of your family members you left behind. It is not only your right but your obligation as a human to help them in any way you can, and if you feel that pressing your government for action, then, well, so be it. You can be a proud Canadian citizen and still retain your culture.
    There are many proud member of the Canadian Forces who are immigrants- who speak Arabic and Russian and Chinese and Creole- and who serve their country admirably.
    There are many wonderful teachers, doctors, journalists, plumbers, etc. who are Greek, Italian, Hatian- whatever and that identity does not diminish from their contributions to Canadian society.

    • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

      Hear hear!

    • Critical Reasoning

      I’ll second that. Hear hear!

    • Gaunilon

      No one is going to object to the notion that retaining your culture is good. We all feel like one warm, fuzzy, happy family of mixed cultures now that Tamils, Arabs, Russians, Chinese, Creoles, Greeks, Italians, Hatians (sic) and “whatever“s have been equally praised.

      It is somehow pathetic to see the eagerness with which people “hear hear!” to show how un-racist they are by agreeing with the blandest and least controversial of statements. It’s the latest version of public piety.

      Try standing up for an unpopular worthy cause if you really care.

      • Critical Reasoning

        When I say “hear hear!” in response to a comment, it’s because I support the substance of what was expressed, not because of some sort of “anti-racist” posturing. I’ve stood up for plenty of unpopular worthy causes. What have you stood up for, Gaunilon?

        • Gaunilon

          The day you face some sort of repercussion for your stand is the day you’ll have stood up for something worthwhile, dude. By “repercussion” I mean getting physically assaulted, hauled before a tribunal and fined, fired, reporters sifting through your past to find smear-worthy material to publish, etc. I’ve experienced the first on one peaceful protest in Ottawa. Only excellent police protection prevented us from getting killed that day, and I have friends who’ve encountered all the others.

          Standing up against racism is noble, especially if you’re in Nazi Germany. In 21st century Canada it’s really not all that heroic.

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            You’ll change that in a jiffy, though, won’t you?

      • sf

        I agree. Shouting “hear, hear” to something so bland is strange.

        It’s like shouting “hear, hear” when the beauty pageant contestant says she’s in favour of world peace and she’d like everyone in the whole world to hold hands and sing kumbaya together.

        • Critical Reasoning

          sf, those comments which you find so “bland” were not authored by some world-weary old cynic like yourself, they were authored by a 14 year-old. Whenever I see such noble sentiments skilfully expressed by a Canadian youth, I’ll cheer myself hoarse and I won’t feel “strange” for doing so.

          • sf

            Frankly, I have no idea how old people are around here, and if she is only fourteen, then she’s a pretty good writer for that age.

            At the same time, I don’t think it hurts someone of any age to receive an honest opinion. Like anyone else they can choose to agree or disagree.

          • Critical Reasoning

            At the same time, I don’t think it hurts someone of any age to receive an honest opinion.

            Yeah, I completely agree. That’s why I chose to share my honest opinion of Ms. Geffros’ comments when I wrote: “Hear, hear.” It’s also why you chose to share your honest opinion when you took a giant dump on the nobly expressed sentiments of our youthful colleague.

          • sf

            No, I took a giant dump on nobody. You seem to think nobody should be allowed to disagree with a fourteen year old. I’d rather treat everyone the same.

            If she’s as smart as she seems, and she chooses to post here with everyone else, then she should have no trouble debating the use of the word “bland” or my characterization of her sentiments as overly simplistic, or choosing to ignore it all instead.

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            I don’t think her sentiments were “bland,” whether authored by a 14-year-old or by an 84-year-old. The world is dismal enough as it is without having the rare expression of rational and humane values ridiculed. I don’t stand up in Church and start mocking the minister when he says “love thy neighbour,” just because we’ve heard it 1000 times; I don’t fart during the national anthem to show I think the tune is dull; I don’t clock friends in the face just because that would make our friendship more interesting. Anyway, Sophia expressed what I believe very eloquently and elegantly and frankly it’s a pleasure to be able to endorse it; especially when there are evidently a lot of people on this page who don’t believe in such things.

          • kc

            JM
            How to sneer at others is pretty well all you can get out of a Steyn column when we you stop to think about it!

          • sf

            there are evidently a lot of people on this page who don’t believe in such things

            I don’t think that is evident at all, I think a concern for family members and an acceptance of other cultures in Canada is widespread. Most people share those concerns, possibly everyone on this page.

          • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

            “Most people share those concerns, possibly everyone on this page.”

            Well, I’m glad to hear you say that, sf.

    • sf

      if you feel that pressing your government for action

      Um… .. hello?

      Nobody was against that. It’s the part where they shut down the expressway, putting themselves and others in danger, and disrupting the lives of others, and the part where they burn down the Sinhalese restaurant and the temple in Toronto, those are the things that are the controversy.

      The protest part was not the issue, it was the part where they decided that if they go through the trouble to protest then they will ramp up their protest to the point of vandalism and civil disruption.

      BTW, did anybody notice the Canadian embassy in Sri Lanka was attacked? So, do we think that is a good thing or a bad thing? If that’s a bad thing, then can we connect the dots to Ignatieff? Or am I straying too far from the real issue, namely the world handing hands as one to sing kumbaya?

      • http://www.savedarfur.org Sophia Geffros

        The Canadian embassy was attacked by Sri Lankans who felt that Canada was expressing complicit support for the Tamil Tigers.
        It’s quite difficult to blame that attack on the same people who are protesting in Canada.
        if they go through the trouble to protest then they will ramp up their protest to the point of vandalism and civil disruption.
        What does that even mean?
        So… anyone who goes to the trouble of protesting… automatically wants a riot? This must be a new reading of ‘freedom of gathering’ of which I am not aware.
        So… a group of kids protesting their school closure- automatically want a riot?
        Students protesting inaction on the genocide in Darfur- automatically want a riot?
        The right-to-life protesters on Parliament HIll- automatically want a riot?
        All of these, of course, may become riots if the crowd becomes angry enough- but it is highly doubtful that anyone starts out with intent to cause a riot.
        I presume that you refer to the blocking of the Gardiner in Toronto- I am sure that you were just as concerned when the protesters were truckers protesting high gas prices.

        • sf

          My sentence was not clear – I was trying to envision what was going through their minds.

          No, most protests do not result in riots, and that is the point, these particular protests were exceptionally illegal. There have been many protests about Darfur, yet I fail to recall any of them shutting down expressways.

          Frankly, I have no knowledge of truckers protesting gas prices, so I cannot comment on that event. I can only comment on this one and other protests I have witnessed.

          The Tamils were protesting, and as they realized their protests were not resulting in action on the part of the government, this is what they thought:
          “it’s not enough that I’m out here making a point that I believe in, trying to make other people act in order to assist myself and others, I don’t want to go home until I get them to do what I want, so if I have to run onto an expressway, so be it, if I have to break the law, so be it”

          A peaceful protest requires the understanding that your demands might not be met, and when they are not met, that does not give you the right to break the law.

          Whether or not they started out with the intent to cause disruption, that to me is irrelevant.

          Yes, there is a connection to Ignatieff. The Canadian government’s position was not to take a side in this conflict. As soon as Ignatieff agreed to stand up for the Tamils in Parliament, he was taking a side, he was advocating for one of the two sides in the conflict. The embassy attack was a response to that event.

          • sf

            It’s quite difficult to blame that attack on the same people who are protesting in Canada.

            I do blame that attack on both the protesters and Ignatieff. What else caused the attack? Once it was clear that the official opposition had come to an agreement with the protesters, that in turn provoked the attack in Sri Lanka.

          • sophiageffros14

            You blame… an attack.. taking place in a small Asian country… on Michael Ignatieff.
            If you don’t agree with the stance he took, that is fine (although I personally believe that the civillian death toll in Sri Lanka was reprehensible), but do not blame an attack on the Leader of the Opposition. For you to say so is as ridiculous as for me to say that the civil war is Steven Harper’s fault. Believe what you wish, but do not exploit the suffering of people for partisan gain.

          • sf

            You have not answered my question. Why else did they attack the embassy? Why did they think that Canada has taken the side of the Tamils? Why was no other embassy attacked?

          • sf

            My answer: Ignatieff took their side. That’s why.

          • sf

            Of course, don’t get me wrong, Ignatieff is only indirectly and partially responsible, the real people to blame are the attackers themselves.

  • http://www.windyroom.wordpress.com truemuse

    Haroon Siddiqui is an immigrant. His heart is in India. I guess he can speak to multiculturalism but it’s so obvious that he carries those prejudices of perspective that disallow the best reportage to issue forth from him. In describing themselves, and their groups, immigrants often attach those labels to themselves that the majority culture would not. They define themselves by what they fear and by what slights they have experienced and speak in the language of oppression and unless they are really, really special ( and Haroon is just average) then they can’t tell the majority (everyone that is not them) about social policy except to express the changes they want or what they like.

    The point that Steyn makes here — that the language for talking about all of this is restricted — that is really the only point. I look at the Tamils and I see alot of bodies protesting. It’s the same to me as the 10,000 bodies resident in Toronto who are planning to visit Africa in some humanitarian capactiy. It’s same to me as the B’nai Brith signs on Bathurst championing the Israeli cause. Yet I have no language, none of us do, to say: this is lobbying, for war, for international interests, for world causes — that tends in my mind to contradict loyalty and investment in one’s own nation.

    • sf

      Well said, particularly the last sentence. Hear, hear!

      In particular, by lobbying the government for the Tamil cause, they are clearly creating a conflict within Canada with the Candaian Sinhalese community, some of whom are very familiar with the terrorist actions taken by the Tamil Tigers.

  • Critical Reasoning

    I have a big problem when bigots tell their fellow Canadian citizens to “go back where you came from”. As far as I’m concerned, all citizens, regardless of their country of birth, come from Canada.

    • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

      Hear hear.

    • Minaka

      What a misnomer since “critical reasoning” lacks the ability to differentiate between bigoted and non-bigoted use of “Go back to where you came from”.

      When your ancestry is irrelevant to your argument and someone tries to shut you up by telling you to go away, go back where you came from, that’s bigotry.

      When you claim to be very concerned about events in your country of origin yet inflict discomfort on fellow Canadians who are not to blame while trying to strong arm them into concern for a foreign people, it is completely legitimate to be told that we are not interested and instead of harassing us, go back to do something (constructive, not destructive) yourselves.

      This defining as bigotry any critical or negative remark made to a non-white is childish. We are a marketplace of ideas here. Only a racist of soft expectations would give entire groups defined by their skin color or culture a permanent immunity from deserved criticism card.

      • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

        “This defining as bigotry any critical or negative remark made to a non-white is childish.”

        It’s more the gleeful dancing around while shouting critical and negative remarks about non-whites that marks it as bigotry.

      • Critical Reasoning

        Congratulations, you’re the hundredth person to tell me that “Critical Reasoning” is a misnomer. You’re also the 96th person who has done so and then completely misrepresented what I wrote.

        • http://www.jackmitchell.ca Jack Mitchell

          One of the all-time great nicks.

          • Critical Reasoning

            Thanks!

          • Ceeger

            Yep, a great reply, Kermit – it totally ignores and fails to respond to the very solid points made by Minaka and attempts to change the channel, but I guess you pick your intellectual refuges where you can find them/
            Minaka – your post is excellent. It is entirely reasonable to assume that someone who is screaming and throwing tantrums and demanding action be taken on problems in a former homeland might actually feel passionately enough about what he or she is saying to lead by example and go back and try to do something about it. The Tamils have been a very strange blend of action and apathy throughout this entire farce.

      • sf

        I was about to say the same thing but you said it for me. The expression “Go back to where you came from” requires context, on its own it’s meaningless, not bigoted.

        • Critical Reasoning

          Yeah, and I wrote the sentence in such a way as to exclude non-bigoted contexts. Read it again: “I have a big problem when bigots tell…”

          Conversely, I don’t have a problem when non-bigots (friends, family members spiritual advisors or anyone else who isn’t being bigoted) utter those words.

          • sf

            True. I suppose I read the sentence differently, in the sense that I thought your use of the word was directly connected to the comment being uttered.

            For example, when saying “I like it when the garbage-collectors collect the garbage”, the use of the term “garbage collectors” is by no means an attempt to differentiate them from the other people going around collecting garbage.

          • Critical Reasoning

            If I was to write “I love it when garbage collectors collect my garbage”, I most certainly would be attempting to differentiate garbage collectors from all other people who might be rooting through my trash. ;-)

          • sf

            I suppose the meaning can be altered by stressing different syllables.

          • Critical Reasoning

            Huh? You seem to think that the term “garbage collector” is somehow ambiguous, because although it is widely understood to mean one thing (civic employees) it could also be interpreted differently. Almost any commonly understood term is subject to similar misunderstanding, but that does not make them all ambiguous.

            Anyway, I fail to see how this relates to the original comment. The term “bigot” is not really ambiguous.

          • sf

            I stick to my original comment. The subject of a sentence can be chosen to differentiate, or it can simply be chosen to be accurate.

            Your original statement, ‘I have a big problem when bigots tell their fellow Canadian citizens to “go back where you came from’ can easily be understood as the following:

            Instead of saying
            ‘I have a big problem when people tell their fellow Canadian citizens to “go back where you came from”‘ you chose to say
            ‘I have a big problem when bigots tell their fellow Canadian citizens to “go back where you came from”
            and this can easily be interpreted as your choosing to be more accurate about who would utter such words.

            In other words, the choice of the word bigot can be chosen for accuracy, or, as you claim, it can be chosen to differentiate.

            However, the choice of words to describe the subject of a sentence is not automatically a “differentiation”.

            Here’s a simpler example:
            When I say, “when I eat dinner” I am not claiming that I am the only one who eats dinner.

            Similarly, when you say “when bigots say X” you are not necessarily claiming that only bigots say those words. And when you say “I have a problem when bigots say X” you are not necessarily claiming that you have a problem with bigots, you are claiming you have a problem with X, and at the same time, you are identifying the people who say X as bigots.

          • Critical Reasoning

            Fair enough. You honestly did not receive the message I intended, interpreting it as a blanket condemnation rather than a more nuanced condemnation. The fault is mine; as a writer, I should have communicated my point with more precision.

          • sf

            It’s nobody’s fault, your intended meaning was legitimate with those words. In spoken language the meaning would have been evident.

          • Minaka

            “I have a big problem when bigots tell their fellow Canadian citizens to “go back where you came from”

            Critical “Reasoning” does some Clintonesque acrobatic pretzel-like parsing of his sentence that would commonly be read as “go back where you came from” is a bigoted remark. Instead, he pretends he meant he has a problem with those words only when a bigot uses them.

            And CR also has no problem when bigots tell immigrants something else?

            CR then plagiarized the criticism and said he wouldn’t mind the same words coming from non-bigots.

            How does he know who’s allowed to use the words and who’s a bigot?

            Instead of context, apparently non-bigots have to be friends or relatives or spiritual advisors of CR. Strangers are out of luck apparently.

            When libs get caught in their own bigotry or incoherence, they always pretend they said something else. Clintonesque. Even the word “is” gets disputed.

  • Copt-Egypt

    When I immigrated to Canada from Egypt some 12 years ago, I did not have the slightest idea that Canadians (presumably westren people) had aspirations to assimilate into the quagmire that I escaped from.

    I left Egypt so that I can freely say to my daughter that Burqa is a crime againist women. I never imagined in my wildest dreams that I could be labeled racist or be dragged in front of a court in this country for a comment like that here.

    It is a crime againist immigrants to not speak againist or cricize their culture. After all, if they so fond ot it, why have they left it behind.

    Likewise, if you sweet Canadian think that Muslim Culture should not be touched, please go ahead and live there. Pakistan is becoming the vanguard and many other states will follow soon.

    • Gaunilon

      Well, if you were looking for a place where you can criticize whatever you want in freedom, you came to the wrong country. See “Human Rights Tribunals”.

  • Dieter Sprockets

    Haroon comes to life whenever an event involving ethnics elicits a legitimate response from the charter groups.

  • http://www.wakepedia.blogspot.com Wakefield Tolbert

    For, between the Tamils and the Sinhalese, who are we to judge?

    Well there, son, that’s a good question. And yet the obvious fraud of non-judgmental judging judges us to be aloof and non-empathetic to the plights of…well…..whomever decides to reduce their native lands to rubble next on the globe. History repeats. Rinse. Lather. Repeat. Turn the page. Class bell rings. Time for lunch.

    Alternately:

    Intervene in the spirit of “Save Darfur” and “Free Tibet” —when we all know good and well there will be no “saving” and no “freeing”, respectively, as soon as the cute faux-crayon “War is NOT the Answer” posters get tacked to the wall of hippies and high cotton politicians alike, out of an even worse human moral priggishness typical of both types?

    Or, in the spirit of the rather numerous ghosts of Bosnia, we decide we can help after all by flipping a coin to decide which butchery best serves our own persuasions and pieties and help that side in their own efforts in multi-culti by bombing them back to the stone age–should any survive but the roaches and rats?

    All this PC blather about the vitality of immigration and culture–and the interplay of the twain–and YET, dammit to hell, if it does not yet fall again on the white man’s enclaves to sort things out with either the law or (in some cases with increasing frequency these unpleasant days) a bandolier of bullets.

    • hosertohoosier

      Can’t we all give war a chance? The LTTE started a war against a legitimate government – targeting civilians in its war of terror (the largest number of suicide bombing attacks in any country was in Sri Lanka). Reconciliation with terrorists is impossible, and unlikely anyway since they ran their own pseudo-state. Now that has come to an end. Reconciliation is finally possible, without forcing the Sri Lankan government to deal with terrorists. Sinhalese people can better address these kinds of issues when they don’t live in fear of suicide attacks. The Sri Lankan government has been a bit brutal of late – but they also decisively won the conflict. Ending that conflict – even if somewhat costly in terms of lives – may be less costly in terms of lives if it succeeds in ending the larger conflict, or at least the military version of Sri-Lanka LTTE clashes.

    • http://www.savedarfur.org Sophia Geffros

      Um… I fail to see why you seem to feel nothing can be done about Darfur- one can (and I do) argue that we have an obligation to prevent genocide, suffering and war whenever we know about it.
      One would hardly argue, with hindsight, that the world was right not ot intervene more heavily in Rwanda to prevent genocide- and the analogy stands.

  • Minaka

    You mean as opposed to another house organ for dreary left wingers trying to pass off tired and universally failed socialism as “progressive”?

    And there’s the big liberal fixating on someone’s accent and pronouncing its owner non-Canadian. Hey, Leo. Most of the people with discernible accents in Canada are non-white. Want to tell them they’re not REAL Canadians? Go on. Be consistent for once.

  • hosertohoosier

    I think this discussion reflects that there is some merit in one of Mark Steyn’s points – that we cannot have an honest discussion about race without constant accusations of racism. I think Obama’s presidency is another example of North American immaturity about the issue. Stand-up comedians have yet to find anything close to an angle on the guy (thank god for Joe Biden) – Obama’s race makes him a teflon man. Indeed, the fear of being perceived as racist prevents cultural integration – it makes white people very measured and un-spontaneous in their dealings with members of other groups.

    Often you know who your friends are in that they are people you make fun of (and who make fun of you), and all is square. The ability to tease my friends about various ethnic stereotypes (sometimes because the stereotypes apply so poorly that there is some ironic absurdity in it), and their ability to tease me back is not a reflection of racism, it is a reflection of race/ethnicity not mattering.

    I truly wish as a society we could adopt the following ground-rules.
    1. Nobody can start arguments with “as a [member of minority group X] I believe…” Experience is valuable, but first-hand experience isn’t everything. Lets also ban “you people”. Nobody is responsible for the actions of their race (unless directly culpable).
    2. The accusation of racism should be reserved for people who actually hate members of other races, not people who have legitimate concerns about immigration (I am strongly pro-immigration – I think we should let in as many people as we can, subject only to a security/crime check, but if a lot of Canadians feel their culture is under assault, we need to hear them out and think up ways to address their concerns, in part because that will maintain political support for immigration).
    3. Somebody who does not speak English well is not necessarily stupid. Speaking louder or using baby-talk is probably not helping them.
    4. Lets ignore all historical wrongs. I’m part Metis, part English, part French and part Irish. So my French (Norman) ancestors conquered my English ones, who then conquered my Irish ancestors. My French ancestors settled Canada, married some of my Metis ancestors, both of whom were conquered by my English ancestors. Our genetic/ethnic histories are complex – so much so that simplistic notions like reparations and the like are dumb policies. General policies like welfare can act as a catch-all – just because one’s ethnic group was targeted by discrimination doesn’t mean that all of one’s ancestors suffered under the old regime. Stuff like affirmative action benefits the collaborators over the actually coerced.
    5. Lets not accuse people proposing reforms to immigration of wanting to “ship all the foreigners back to wherever they came from”, unless they actually do. Lets agree that shipping foreigners – who are Canadian citizens with just as much claim to be here as anybody else – have as much right to stay as the Canadian-born. My ancestors contributed to Canada, but the notion of me getting credit for that is ridiculous. I am quite lazy and can claim responsibility for none of their accomplishments.

    I could probably suggest more rules, but I think the ones I went into can at least get us started on a real dialogue.

    • sf

      That can be the start of a new Charter.

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