Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

The minister of state is kindly asked to leave

by Aaron Wherry on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:27am - 137 Comments

Gary Goodyear makes another friend in the academic world.

Jim Turk, executive director of the Canadian Association of University Teachers, said that universities need to be a place where controversial ideas can be debated, and that this kind of political interference to curry favour with a group of voters is unprecedented in Canada and blow to academic freedom.

“The action of the Minister of Science and Technology contacting the president of SSHRC to express political concerns is not something we have seen in this country since the McCarthy period,” he said.

Mr. Turk said that Mr. Goodyear should resign.

Tags: gary goodyear

More by Aaron Wherry

Egg Head

Again you're responding to something I didn't write. I didn't write about Western history in general. Wars between the Arab world and the Western world are a completely different phenomenon.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

You said anti-Semitism has targeted only Jews, which is patent ahistorical nonsense.

Egg Head

As with your attempt to use the story of Norman Herbert to prove something about academic history (when he wasn't even an academic!), your use of history here is characteristically confused. "Anti-semitism" has indeed historically targeted only Jews, because it was invented with specific reference to Jews. It does not involve, e.g., the Crusades, because the concept of anti-semitism wasn't even in existence at that time. It was invented in the mid-19th century (there is no recorded use of the term prior at all prior to that time), and was used synonymously with anti-Judaism, because it referred to specific groups and individuals who targeted Jews specifically. Later, the anti-semitic theories which were invented in Europe were popularized in the Arab world – the fact that they are technically also semites was not an obstacle to that, because it was all directed at Jews.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

If you seriously think anti-Semitism was "invented" in the 19th-Century, we've nothing more to discuss. If you read more books, you'll post fewer vapid comments on the Internet. Editing them and using a spell-checker would also be a welcome courtesy.

Your ramblings about Norman are equally pitiable. See the relevant thread for my response to your ignorance on that score.

Egg Head

Look:

its clear from reading your posts that you're not an academic, from which it follows that you don't know what academic standards are, and are unable to perform simply academic tasks: so, you're under the impression that the etymology of words is irrelevant, you don't understand why "SSHRC conference" isn't an operable term, you think having heard of Norman is a great achievement, etc. I would only add that the sentence "your ramblings about Norman are equally pitiable" is itself "pitable" insofar as I never wrote more than a few words about him in the first place, simply pointing out the obvious fact that he wasn't an academic, and so its nonsensical to cite his case as evidence of anti-communism in academica. If you want to make claims about the climate of Canadian academia in the late 1950s, cite examples of academics. Simple.
Egg Head

Incidentally, besides the fact that Norman wasn't an academic, interested readers might want to know that his suicide actually strengthened then-growing anti-AMERICAN sentiment in Canada. Anti-communism was already out of fashion. Norman's suicide simply supported that trend. And since Sir_Francis is under the odd impression that the only place to learn about this is wikipedia, and that that's somehow bad, well, you could look it up in one of those books which (in the fashion of a man experienced in scholarly debate!) he claims I haven't read: e.g., Bothwell, et al, "Canada since 1945", p. 129ff; Higott, et al, "The Political Consequences of Anti-Americanism", p. 139, Bowen, "Innocence is not enough: the life and death of Herbert Norman", p. 325.

http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

Anti-Semitism was created with Christianity.
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

Anti-Semitism was "invented" with Christianity.

Egg Head

So cite a usage of the term prior to the 19th century.
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

I see. You are referring to the specific term and I mean the sentiment. As proof I would use the pogroms that were conducted against Jews throughout Europe, seemingly every Friday night, for about two thousand years, up until about sixty years ago.

I certainly cannot cite a use of the term prior to the 19th century, so I will concede that you could very well be correct that the specific term was not used prior to then.

Egg Head

Cite a single use of the term "anti-Semitism" prior to the 19th century.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

Anti-Semitism is the belief in the inherent inferiority of Jews. The concept is ancient. The idea wasn't invented in the 19th Century, you fool. The term we now use to express the concept was (probably) coined in Germany in the mid-19th Century. You'll need to ask your parents for details concerning the difference between ideas and words.

Really, instead of treating me to your childish petulance, you should be grateful to me for spending time on someone who deserves it so little.

http://intensedebate.com/people/ottawasteph ottawasteph

Anyone here heard the story of the Wandering Jew. It is centuries-old.

Egg Head

As I said in my other post, anti-Semitism was developed in the 19th century, because it is related to the development of modern science.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack_Mitchell

This is not true, anti-semitism is as old as Christianity.

Egg Head

After several posts attacking me for saying that anti-semitism is hatred directed specifically at Jews, you now claim: "Anti-Semitism is the belief in the inherent inferiority of Jews". Thanks for conceding my point! However, the rest of your post is nonsensical. The concept was in fact invented in the 19th century. It was invented in the 19th century because anti-Semitism was a term constructed to refer to the belief in the purported scientific inferiority of Jews, and so it presupposed modern science.

But look, you've spent a bunch of nonsenical posts accusing me not having read any books, not knowing the difference between ideas and words, calling me names and then calling me "childish", and making pointless statements about your own supposed authority. I'll tell you what: if you claim to know anything about academia, and if you claim to have been an academic, show that you can actually write like one: stop with ad hominen nonsense, name-calling over the internet, accusing people of not having read books, etc.. Say something sensible. Provice some citations for it – or, if you like, just engage the actual citations of scholarly works that I provided disproving your nonsensical claim that Norman proves something about the climate in Canadian academia in the the late 1950s when he wasn't even an academic, or in a university at that time.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

The late 1950s were simply not a time of intense academic anti-communism.

Ever heard of Pierre Trudeau? Care to tell me why he was denied a university teaching post until 1961?

Be so kind as to supply me with the names of three prominent openly communist Canadian professors who enjoyed tenure between 1950 and 1960.

Similarly, "Victorian" does not neatly define an American era, nor a Chinese era. It was British.

If you've really never seen the word "Victorian" used in an American context, you've simply not read enough, as I've mentioned above.

Egg Head

"Be so kind as to supply me with the names of three prominent openly communist Canadian professors who enjoyed tenure between 1950 and 1960."

For someone who claims to have had academic training, you don't know how to read very well, do you? "McCarthyism" instead of "McCarthy period", and now you're asking me to tell you about "openly communist Canadian professors who enjoyed tenure between 1950 and 1960" when I in fact wrote that:

"The late 1950s were simply not a time of intense academic anti-communism – as I said, not many years after that, it was possible for Soviet sympathizers to become powerful academics at top Canadian universities."

In other words, when I wrote of "Soviet sympathizers", which is different from "openly Communist" in the sense of "member of the Communist party" (of which I don't there were very prominent examples, I was thinking of the early 1960s. So you're asking me to provide something which I in fact didn't claim.

"If you've really never seen the word "Victorian" used in an American context, you've simply not read enough, as I've mentioned above."
For someone who apparently thinks they've read a lot, you seem reluctant to cite actual, uh, books.

Egg Head

Not to mention that the whole premise of your question is misguided, as Canadian universities didn't have a completely uniform tenure policy until the 1960s. You know what? I read it in a book! Now, its your turn: I asked you to cite just one example of a claim which you made very stridently above. Try it.

Egg Head

Incidentally, if "Pierre Trudeau" is your idea of an academic, methinks you haven't heard (let alone read) of many, if any.
Egg Head

Anyway, look above! I've got six citations for ya! Now, instead of showing attempting to prove your academic credentials by claiming that I must never have read a book, why don't you cite just one back. Don't worry. Even a dumbass can do it.

jarrid

You need to read up on Hezbolah.
Egg Head

And yes, Sir_Francis, I did just pull all of that from Wikipedia. You caught me. Because, you know, you're so special that no one except you has ever heard of Norman. So I MUST have gotten from Wikipedia, huh? Cause only a real scholar like yourself could know anything about that, right, kid? Anyway, since I've know provided five or six citations re:Norman, how about you cite just one use of the term "anti-Semitism" prior to the 19th century. Just one, kid. Just one.

scf

I really enjoyed this masterful take-down of one of the many ignorant blowhards on these blogs.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack_Mitchell

I would have thought Egg Head would be your friend, sf, and now you're crowing about his humiliation at the hands of Sir Francis? Have a heart, baby.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Sir_Francis Sir_Francis

Indeed. I've been masterfully taken down by someone who thinks that the European notion of Jewish inferiority was "invented" in the mid-1800's, that Canadian universities were communist-friendly in the 1950's, and that quoting from Wiki pages is a form of "scholarship". Meanwhile, nowhere within all that drivel was there the slightest attempt to contest or ever address the substance of my original comment on the Goodyear fiasco. Yeah, it was humbling.

The only masterful thing about Egg Head is the brilliant way he demonstrates how tragically our education system has failed our children. For that failure, I apologise on society's behalf–to him and to you.

Egg Head

"I've been masterfully taken down by someone who thinks that the European notion of Jewish inferiority was "invented" in the mid-1800's"
Of course I never claimed this this.

"that Canadian universities were communist-friendly in the 1950's,"
Nor did I make that claim.

"and that quoting from Wiki pages is a form of "scholarship".
Nor I did I even do that. Exactly the opposite, I provided specific references to six scholarly books. By, uh, reading them. You still haven't cited a single book. And you still seem to think that citing the example of a Canadian diplomat in the late 1950s proves something about the climate among Canadian academics in the late 1950s.

Look: stop accusing other people of being unable to read, and instead, note that I've cited a book, look those books up, or just provide some citations of your own. Suggesting that other people can't read when you're unable to respond to scholarly citations or provide your own references to books of any kind ("Archie Meets Betty" would do) is just in bad form.

http://intensedebate.com/people/ottawasteph ottawasteph

OK, how about post-French Revolution Western civilization. You know, somewhere between Ancient Greece and the last 40 years. Satisfied?

Egg Head

Post-French Revolution makes more sense.

john g

No, I'm pretty sure I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to this

FYI, I am pro choice but I respect the pro life argument and their right to peacefully demonstrate.
catherine

Here is an interesting followup: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/06/11/con…

SSHRC will be issuing a statement today.
http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

When was Canada's McCarthy period?

And I agree with Turk that universities need to be a place where controversial ideas can be debated but anyone who has been following universities for at least the past decade knows perfectly well they are not places where controversial ideas can be discussed anymore. Students and academics are only allowed to praise liberal pieties or else they are tarred and feathered.
Austin So

Students and academics are only allowed to praise liberal pieties or else they are tarred and feathered.
My experience at Canadian universities was that of being subjected to an ossified, stifling and homogenous left/lib mindset. Debate was a rare thing. Indoctrination was the order of the day.

Ugh.
jarrid

Hi T*-G*y,

I thought you were banned from this blog.

Surely there are other blogs that could benefit from your rapier wit.
jarrid

From the article:

"Jim Turk, executive director of the Canadian Association of University Teachers, said that universities need to be a place where controversial ideas can be debated,…"

My experience at Canadian universities was that of being subjected to an ossified, stifling and homogenous left/lib mindset. Debate was a rare thing. Indoctrination was the order of the day.

Most Canadian universities, with some notable exceptions, are little more than left/lib indoctrination centres.

Why would anyone with a modicum of knowledge of last centuries' horrors question Israel's right to exist? Maybe the conference organizers should encourage a debate on whether there really was a holocaust while they're at it.
Michael

Did you actually participate in seminar discussions? For the most part, they were always "anything goes" for debate when I was in school.
Anon

"My experience at Canadian universities was that of being subjected to an ossified, stifling and homogenous left/lib mindset."

*yawn* I doubt you graduated high school.
http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

"Liberalism is the foundation of Western civilization."

Depends on your definition of liberal. If you are talking about what 'liberal' used to mean, than I agree. If you are talking about 'liberal' and what it has come to mean over the past 40 years, I disagree.
http://intensedebate.com/people/ottawasteph ottawasteph

Ba-ha-ha, agreed. For this crowd:
Arts=playing piano in private
Culture=sports
Infrastructure=rec centres
Science=profit-driven R&D
Accountability=secrecy
Women=baby machines
Middle class=vulnerable
Up=down
Black=white
So it goes.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

Jim Turk is a partisan Liberal with a documented history of petulant attacks on Goodyear for the pettiest things. Check out this link from Warren Kinsella:

http://warrenkinsella.com/index.php?entry=entry09…
Sisyphus

Certainly seems like the ossifying and stifling worked.
Egg Head

How about some more citations, just for fun:

Granatstein, "Yankee Go Home", p. 127
Azzi, "Walter Gordon and the Rise of Canadian Nationalism", p. 166
Glazov, "Canadian policy toward Khrushchev's Soviet Union", p. 74
Bothwell, "Alliance and illusion: Canada and the world", p. 131
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

Goodyear's dead on target. And then next, we oughta have the gov't come in and stop all that feminist teaching, and then that evolution crap, and then there's all that reading people do. I hear they write things in places that don't praise conservative thinking… I mean.. what the hell is that.. we shouldn't be teaching our youngsters about stuff like that. Won't anybody think o' the childrens!
http://intensedebate.com/people/ottawasteph ottawasteph

Liberalism is the foundation of Western civilization.
To quote a lefty leader, what the hell is the matter with you people?!
(BTW I'm a student :P)
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ottawasteph ottawasteph

Liberalism is the foundation of Western civilization.
To quote a lefty leader, what the hell is the matter with you people?!
(BTW I'm a student :P and have worked in fed gov since before you were born!)
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ottawasteph ottawasteph

Liberalism is the foundation of Western civilization.
To quote a lefty leader, what the hell is the matter with you people?!
(BTW I'm a uni student :P and have worked in fed gov since, perhaps, before you were born!)
http://intensedebate.com/people/ottawasteph ottawasteph

Even Harper refers to "liberal democracy." Where've you been?
Anon

Make that "doubt you completed grade 8."
jarrid

Sock puppet!
Egg Head

"Liberalism is the foundation of Western civilization."

This statement is absurd. Western civilization predates liberalism by millenia.
Egg Head

This reply is tone-def. When Harper refers to "liberal democracy" he's used liberal in the broad sense to which the previous poster referred.
herringchoker

Jim Turk? Wasn't it his union that shut down York U for the best part of last year? Not exactly the poster boy for "academic freedom".
http://intensedebate.com/people/ottawasteph ottawasteph

Do you mean the traditional definition or "what it has come to mean over the past 40 years"?
http://intensedebate.com/people/ottawasteph ottawasteph

Oy vey! Civilization has, indeed, been around for millenia. That is not what I was talking about and you know it.
http://intensedebate.com/people/LeslieE LeslieE

From the university website – "The conference seeks to systematically measure models based on two states or a single binational state, federal and con-federal approaches, and other models in between and beyond."

Note the words, Mr. Goodyear doesn't seem to have, the web address is http://www.yorku.ca/ipconf/
Egg Head

"Civilization has, indeed, been around for millenia"
I didn't write "civilization", I wrote "Western civilization", which predates liberalism.
Egg Head

My original reply answers this question.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack_Mitchell

That was the TA union.