Comments on: Why it’s so hard to fire bad teachers

By: Ingrid Steppan

Ingrid Steppan — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 15:10:00 +0000

My child along with other children in his classroom are bullied by their teacher, she has done this before, and had police reports filed against her, she has been kicked out of another school, yet like a bad priest , here we go again. It's time Canada, gives us the parents a place to complain and be heard and have something done about it, we talk about kids who are bullies, but guess what happens to a room full of kids who are bullied? They become bullies and here we go again. Someone out there please help me, Bengough Saskatchewan.

By: PARENT IN DISTRESS

PARENT IN DISTRESS — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 00:44:17 +0000

teachers get too high on thier horse at times and need to be reminded why they are there…to teach. im not saying the job is easy but what is. When i perform poorly at my job im in deep you know what but where do they get thier feed back from. It takes leadership from the top to step up and improve the situation with the help from parent and comunity. If this does not happen education as it is, is lost!

By: unemployed teacher

unemployed teacher — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:06:56 +0000

Let the bad teachers go and give their jobs to teachers who can't find a job and actually care about the students. In the classroom its the students that should be a priority not selfish teachers who don't give a dam

By: CactusJack

CactusJack — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:14:53 +0000

People are reacting to your quote in the context of high school…. it seems as though you are saying 50 percent of all teachers graduated at the bottom half of their HIGH SCHOOL class…. which simply isn't true

By: CactusJack

CactusJack — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:11:20 +0000

In order to even get into the Faculty of Education at most Canadian Universities you need high marks. It's a very competitive field nowadays. The B. Ed. program at the University of Manitoba turns away over 75% of the applications to get into the faculty… and then these people have to get hired by a school division.

That being said, I do agree there are incompetent teachers in the field and it is incredibly difficult for a teacher to lose their job in Canada…. but your statistics are simply wrong.

By: Crushed

Crushed — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:47:20 +0000

I used to work as an Educationl Assistant in the classroom plus I have had 3 kids go through the system–my last kid is in grade 12. I could write a book about teachers–the good and the bad. I got to see both sides of it–from sitting in the teachers' lounge listening to the complaining about students to finding an English essay on my son' s laptop expressing his wish to commit suicide. Unfortunately, I found the latter days after he died. Apparently, it was an assignment under the curriulum guidelines. I wish I had of just home schooled my kids!

By: JustinWordswrth

JustinWordswrth — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 05:00:05 +0000

Education in Canada is intellectual abuse.

By: TedTylerEzro

TedTylerEzro — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 03:07:43 +0000

This article sounded a lot like the Catholic Church's handling of the sexual abuse crisis.

By: xxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 02:20:17 +0000

The teachers in canada(NOT ALL),are very unprepared.I am a concerned parent,waiting to see improvements in my child educ.,but the rezults are not as expected.They do came to school for the paycheck ,only.The french teacher is also a gym teach…..and so on.Go in Europe and see what means to be a teacher,how they use the blackboard and chalk,yeees…how they recomand a notebook for every subject,and every day they teach a lesson,followed by explanations and homework.So,the parents know exactly what they learn in each day.Competion between cildrens is encouraged…i can tell you now,how bad the canadian educ,is ,First of all,a teach for history is a 4 year univercitry grad on that subj,espec…even he have studied a lot of something else……i am disapointed….maybe Canada doesn t need more than carpenters,,no offence

By: Carla

Carla — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:41:53 +0000

That is just sickening.

By: Skinny Dipper

Skinny Dipper — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:41:55 +0000

To Teacher in Toronto (if you are one),

Some of the best teachers that I have seen teach Science, Special Education, and ESL/ELL classes.

By: Teacher in Toronto

Teacher in Toronto — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 05:32:48 +0000

Most principals move bad classroom teachers to support roles like science, special education or ESL. They will even bully the teacher hoping the teacher will leave….rarely happens.

Problem for teacher is how do you get rid of incompetent principals who don't support their staff and lie to avoid being grieved.

By: TunyaAudain

TunyaAudain — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 06:52:59 +0000

This Macleans article has stirred quite a lot of discussion in other parts of Canada. Even in the quiet summer months when people usually take a break from school matters, there is a lot of concern. The comments on the Vancouver Sun education blog, “The Report Card” have good arguments on the topic and some rather well-advanced essays. Please see: Incompetent teachers safe from dismissal (76 comments) http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/... Also see: Incompetent educators (5 comments) School for Thought blog, Ontario http://www.societyforqualityeducation.org/index.p... Are there other sites carrying this discussion? I really wish Macleans does a follow-up article on the topic when schools resume in the fall.

By: musable

musable — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:35:49 +0000

Hi,
as part of a continuous improvement program within any organization, private, public, other, especially in the private sector, poor performers are let go from their positions and new bodies are hired. This keeps the organization vitalized, energetic and continually striving to do better. obviously, that is not a goal within the education system and it is a sad comment on that system in general.
good luck !!

By: corrie

corrie — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:45:48 +0000

incompetence in the primary grades is easier to spot. Don't do us any favors.

By: PhilCP

PhilCP — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:16:45 +0000

Agreed that the cause of the teacher 'problem' is by no means solely an issue of unqualified principals. Poor principals (a large minority?) are unlikely to attempt to improve teacher performance and even less likely to try to actually use existing processes to fire poor teachers. And better principals will at least try to improve teacher performance, but even for them the firing process is just too onerous to be implemented when there are easier although less effective 'solutions'.

I thought about that third option (the 'bruiser' option) for quite a while before I added it to my list; that idea definitely needs some polish. In general I agree with the 'attracting flies with honey' approach, but in this case I'm not so sure it is the right analogy.

I believe that the performance of principals is mostly based on student / school performance; if part of their performance review was based on how many firings they completed I would guess that the numbers would increase at least a little bit.

Thanks for the feedback.

By: Craig O

Craig O — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 10:07:03 +0000

My point is that if it was just the principals, the size of most school boards would mean that assuming even a quarter of principals were competant, there would be far more firings, given an average school size of even 10 teachers per school (which I suspect is well below the actual average). I have a little more faith in the system that I don't believe that 75%+ principals are bad at their jobs.

I would agree that there needs to be an independent group designated to handle firings and promotions, but I would prefer if that person/group were one in the same – a "bruiser" meant just to fire people would be quickly shut out or disrupted by teachers sympathetic or friendly to the bad teachers, making their job all the more difficult. You get more flies with honey…

By: PhilCP

PhilCP — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:23:44 +0000

Hmmm…..or, as MYL says below.

By: PhilCP

PhilCP — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:22:14 +0000

The promotion system is surely similar to the system at most (all?) other entities, public or private. Ie there are at least a few cases where an incompetent teacher is elevated to a principalship on the basis that they will do less harm there than if they continue to teach.

Then there will be some other principals who were good or even great teachers, accept a promotion, and then turn out to make rather mediocre principals. And of course there will be some good or great teachers who would make good or great principals, but decline the opportunity to become a principal for any one of a number of reasons.

So, what to do. A couple of ideas:

– do a more rigorous job of reviewing promotions; a good number of failed promotions could have been foreseen with a more thorough or honest review
– find out why good/great teachers that we know would make great principals decline a promotion when offered and deal with those barriers
– designate a small number of hard-ass school board employees to become the designated axemen and set them loose to use the processes that are in place to deal with poor performance

By: truemuse

truemuse — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 03:41:18 +0000

This article is so difficult to read. An expert from Virginia can't comment authoritatively on our situation in Canada! The fact that this writer makes it seem like he can is amateurish. Get credible, relevant, Canadian expert opinion if you want to talk to Canadians in their national magazine about educational issues here. I have no qualms with knowing that teachers leave the profession of their own volition if they are struggling. In my view, and I can only speak about Ontario and Toronto, the teaching profession has been sorely tried by successive reform governments. Begin with Bill Davis. Phonics and all kinds of poor curriculum. End with the GTA merger that amalgamated the TDSB axing half the middle level administrators who mentored and developed teachers, and with the McGunity split class regime to satisfy the class cap size political promise. Teaching is an honored profession and the measure of respect we have for it tells us who we are as a society.

By: madeyoulook

madeyoulook — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 03:30:38 +0000

Good managers who do their job…

Honest Q in search of an informed answer: to what extent have the incompetent teachers been "promoted" out of the classroom and placed in those very management positions, so as to do "less damage" to the kids?

Not that I agree with that strategy, but doesn't every organization "hide" at least some of their imbeciles a little higher up? To the extent that this goes on in education, it might become statistically a little more difficult for "good managers" to be found.

And then the cycle repeats: how do you fire incompetent managers at school administrations and regional school boards? You don't; you just shuffle the trash around…

By: Sticky_Mister

Sticky_Mister — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:42:48 +0000

Thank you. Also without conducting any research whatsoever, I can safely say that 1/10th of the teachers graduated in the top 10% of the class. Do you think B.P.L.H. gets it yet?

By: truemuse

truemuse — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:38:16 +0000

This article is so difficult to read. An expert from Virginia can't comment authoritatively on our situation in Canada! The fact that this writer makes it seem like he can is amateurish. Get credible, relevant, Canadian expert opinion if you want to talk to Canadians in their national magazine about educational issues here. I have no qualms with knowing that teachers leave the profession of their own volition if they are struggling. In my view, and I can only speak about Ontario and Toronto, the teaching profession has been sorely tried by successive reform governments, beginning with Bill Davis and ending with the GTA merger that amalgamated the TDSB and axed half the middle level administrators that mentor teachers, and with the McGunity split class regime to satisfy the class cap size political promise. Teaching is an honored profession and the measure of respect we have for it tells us who we are as a society.

By: nmm66

nmm66 — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:35:13 +0000

Look into hiring the excess of teachers in the Vancouver area. Some of my friends have to be substitute teachers for 2-3 years before getting a full time job.

I of course blame them for going into a profession that is vastly over supplied and has a decreasing demand, but for most of them, they couldn't imagine doing any other job.

By: Mathrific

Mathrific — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:55:13 +0000

Indeed. If you divide a class in half, 50% will be at the top and 50% will be at the bottom. Genius stat.

By: Craig O

Craig O — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:01:44 +0000

If these problems were relatively localised, I would agree, but the problem appears to be system-wide. If principals or other education administrators were the problem, you'd expect at least the odd principal to be competant and boot the bad teachers who cross his or her path.

The situation of the Halifax Regional School Board is telling – at just above one dismissal for incompetance a year for 5 years over 137 schools in the board, if we're just looking at principals who are inadequate, that's 130+ inadequate principals, besides the odd one lucky enough to have only good teachers at their school. Now, either the promotion system is so poor that we're constantly promoting incapable people to administrative positions, or the system to fire teachers is the problem and in need of a serious overhaul (or both).

By: Craig O

Craig O — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 20:46:23 +0000

Unless the Ontario teachers are willing to relocate to a rural area in the West or North of the country, job prospects seem the same. Quebec may have some unique circumstances which make things worse, but the problem presented in this article is a national one – poor pay or anything to do with prestige can't really explain why there are many incompetant teachers hanging around in the rest of the country.

By: Sticky_Mister

Sticky_Mister — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:33:13 +0000

B.P.L.H.

By: Sticky_Mister

Sticky_Mister — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:32:37 +0000

Maybe you need to return to grade 4 math class since my "statistic" is beyond your comprehension.

By: Shawn Richardson

Shawn Richardson — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:07:00 +0000

Because Ontario and Quebec are not the same province. Just because Ontario has too many doesn't mean the rest of the world does too. Ontario pays quite a bit more than Quebec, voila teacher shortage here, teacher surplus there.

By: SisyphusThis

SisyphusThis — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:55:24 +0000

I get a bit tired of this twaddle. It's always possible to dismiss incompetent people. Always.

When it doesn't happen it's usually attributable to lazy and/or incompetent managers.
I spent a lot of years seeing discipline/dismissal provisions being written into labour agreements.
They almost always require that managers assess, document, and deal with problems over time.
They are there to prevent stupid managers from doing stupid things.
Good managers who do their job can dismiss bad employees. They just have to do it right.

By: Craig O

Craig O — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:11:15 +0000

How are you 3000 teachers short? Here in Ontario, I looked at becoming a HS teacher and was told that employment opportunities were very limited and I would typically be required to spend 5 years or so as a substitute teacher just to have a shot at full-time employment. I'm not in the field, obviously, so I might be mistaken, but I've been told by those who are that there aren't too few teachers, there are far too many.

By: Craig O

Craig O — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:07:25 +0000

Most B.Ed programs I've looked at have a cut-off of only a 70%, or B-minus average and often that average is taken out of the applicant's best 10 or 15 full-time courses. Master's programs required the B+ average over the last few years of study (depending on institution), meaning applicants can't pick and choose their best marks. Not only are you wrong in your assessment of requirements for Teacher's College, but you missed the freaking joke!

By: Sticky_Mister

Sticky_Mister — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:06:16 +0000

At least someone gets it. What should I expect, I guess. Most people replying to my post were educated by a system that doesn't fire useless teachers.

By: Anthoney

Anthoney — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:56:14 +0000

Abc Xyz So true! " trample on the human rights of teachers" It is much worse then that! What happens when a teacher has the guts to say something is wrong in the world of Ontario Education. http://www.canadians4accountability.org/news/main... Even some of the best known Canadians have responded. LGen The Honourable Roméo A. Dallaire, (Ret’d), Senator http://tomorrowstrust.ca/?p=7202

By: Shawn Richardson

Shawn Richardson — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:43:32 +0000

I know of some teachers that have quit, and they did so because they found that there was little consequence when students misbehaved. The administration in many schools protect problem students by sacrificing good teachers. It's as if we are afraid to discipline any more.

By: Shawn Richardson

Shawn Richardson — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:41:04 +0000

Parental attitudes are the key, you're right. Unfortunately anytime a teacher tries to suggest that to parents, we are seen as elitist snobs. Sometimes it seems hopeless.

By: cwe

cwe — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:40:56 +0000

Seventeen minutes since you posted your reply. Have you gotten the joke yet?

By: B.P.L.H.

B.P.L.H. — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:21:45 +0000

Thats actually an absurd statistic. It presently requires much higher marks to enter a teachers college in Canada (around the A- to A range) than the enter a Master's program (B+ or higher). the stated minimum for most B.Ed. programs of B- or higher is misleading as intense competition over the last ten years has pushed that average well into the A-range with accompanying experience also now necessary for admission. It is encouraging that those outside of the education profession care so much about teachers and teaching but it would be nice if some of them possessed even the least bit of common sense, research or critical thinking abilities. Sorry Sticky_Mister but perhaps you need to return to school to work on some of these.

By: Anon

Anon — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:19:23 +0000

I'm not a teacher, but I have a lot of respect for them. What the teaching profession needs to do is to become a little more vocal about the very real fact that the biggest determinant in educational success are *parental attitudes" towards education. Teachers are constantly accepting that they can make up for deficient parenting and that has to stop. No one's praising them as heroes for doing it, that's for sure.

By: Anon

Anon — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:12:07 +0000

He made it up. That's how bad education has become. Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with the public education system.

By: Anthoney

Anthoney — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:12:07 +0000

There are all kinds of trained teachers out there! Why have they left teaching? That is the real question! Most teachers love teaching for the sake of kids, they just hate being teachers in a profession that has been destroyed by the self-interest of the ones in power.

By: Abc Xyz

Abc Xyz — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:06:55 +0000

Right on, anon.
Have heard Barrie Bennett talk. Ask him to demonstrate teaching the worst class in the school. Unsurprisingly, he declines. Anon, you are right on. He loves to promote business elites ideas, using public/taxpayer funded facilities, like elitist IB programs in public schools, using public school/taxpayer funded facilities, etc. Actually, he’s little more than a pedagogy peddler…I’m surprised he didn’t plug his books/dvds that he sells in the article…well, maybe they wouldn’t let him to that.
http://www.instructionalintelligence.ca/html/resources.htm
Typical, right wing, profits-before-people propaganda.
And people wonder why some kids are out of control, shooting/bullying each other, etc., with the kind of government incompetence/school board/professor incompetence that we have. Yep, little Johnny/Jane is bullying other kids/threatening and shooting/robbing/stealing, but hey, it must be the fault of the ‘bad’ teacher, eh?
Incompetent people like Bennett and school principals routinely abuse and trample on the human rights of teachers, allowing teachers to be abused, etc. by out of control ‘students’. Typical ‘blame the victim’ right wing idiocy.

By: Shawn Richardson

Shawn Richardson — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:58:55 +0000

I am a high school teacher, and a union rep, and I agree that the process of dismissing a tenured teacher is incredibly complex. Part of the problem here in Quebec is that we are about 3000 teachers short right now. If we start removing incompetent teachers we are even worse off, but it should still be done.

Improving the prestige of the profession would help, many people see teachers as glorified babysitters with summers off. Improving pay in Quebec would also help, many great people choose not to teach because of the low pay, or they leave for other provinces.

By: Anthoney

Anthoney — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:55:37 +0000

Part 3
Mac Comment:
“While a report of sexual or physical abuse is clearly grounds for disciplinary action (as well as a police investigation), …. “

Reply:
You are kidding! In a multiple sex criminal case one of the investigators from the College admitted he /she didn’t report to the authorities the conduct of the accused multiple sex offender because the investigator thought he wasn’t a threat to kids any more because he had gotten married. If the pattern holds, I bet that investigator is now a school principal! Want to see other really silly actions in education.

CTV Report of Sex Offenders:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNe…

It is a little obvious that the machinery of Ontario Education is in desperate need of an ombusdmen office with lots of power to crack the stupidity. Self-governing has failed kids, teachers and the integrity of education.