Categories: Capital Read, Inside the Queensway

For your "And here's a lower place" files: Let's all fight over which party the accused rapists support!

by kadyomalley on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 2:55pm - 117 Comments

Seriously, this is just — horrible, depressing, totally uncalled for and the kind of thing that gives political black ops a bad name. The same goes for posting pictures of the accused with certain cabinet ministers – and really, that’s all ITQ has to say about that.

Tags: this post doesn't deserve a tag

More by kadyomalley

http://liberalvideodepot.blogspot.com Old School Liberal

How can Brown stoop so low as that. Warraich was the President of his own riding association, someone he called a "talented individual" and whom he commended for his "continuous efforts in making our city a better place for all". (http://tinyurl.com/Brown-Warraich-Kenney
)

But that's the way for this Tory party: take a nothing local story, react badly to it and make it a national story that makes you look even worse.
http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

The link you posted, on the other hand, makes it all better, right? Honestly, you've just illustrated exactly what I find so depressing about this whole thing.
john g

Sadly, I suspect there is nowhere for this thread to go but sharply downhill…

http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

Then it will be a very short thread. Honestly, I'm fine with a no-holds-barred discussion of the ethical questions, or strategy — you don't even have to agree with me that the whole thing is just icky, I promise.
http://liberalvideodepot.blogspot.com Old School Liberal

I guess I was trying to take the thread in a different, somewhat less muddy but no less partisan, direction: the general tactic of this particular Conservative Party to both

- immediately attack their own as being Liberal whenever there is a disagreement (MacDonnell after she resigned, and Garth Turner/Stronach/Brison etc. were really always Liberals in disguise (even though they each ran for the Conservative leadership and helped bring the conservative factions together, and any bureaucrat who doesn't sing the praises of Harper such as most obviously Page), and

- take a small story that might arguably make them look bad and blow it up to a big story that very definitely makes them look bad

http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

Well, we don't yet know whether Brown was operating under any kind of official instruction — he strikes me as the type who might have come up with this particular damage control strategy all by himself.

Amateur Hour

Good point. One wonders how any elected official could be so dim as to not see there is no upside to engaging in partisan spin in a case like this. Some of the accused have worked for and represented both Liberals and Progressive Conservatives. Some have not. How completely Not The Point!

The only thing a public office holder should say in such a circumstance is something to the effect of: "These are very serious allegations of a terrible crime. This is not a political matter. One can only hope that justice is served. Beyond that, I have no comment."

http://intensedebate.com/people/tdotlib tdotlib

Here here. He should've stayed out of it.
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/tdotlib tdotlib

Hear hear. He should've stayed out of it.

http://liberalvideodepot.blogspot.com Old School Liberal

I don't doubt this was all on his own. Which is part of the point. When left to their own devices – i.e. when not told exactly what to do and when and how much and what words (and how long to pause between sentences) – this Conservative Party seems to trip over themselves trying to make themselves look bad.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

"Sadly, I suspect there is nowhere for this thread to go but sharply downhill… "

John, yep.

And if political parties of all stripes demanded a thorough psychological assessment of anyone offering to volunteer… well, I hate to speculate on those results.

http://intensedebate.com/people/MacCross MacCross

Once you think political partisanship and smear campaigns have gone as low as they can go, they pick up a shovel and dig even deeper. Truly pathetic.
http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

Just a note — normally, I take a pretty laissez faire approach to comments, but given the allegations involved here, I'm going to be watching this thread like a hawk, and if it turns into a live demonstration of what I was bemoaning in the original post, I'm shutting it down. Govern yourselves accordingly.

http://intensedebate.com/people/truemuse truemuse

I generally like Sun Media reporting. I don't see a thing wrong with the article this post links to. Obviously, gang rape charges don't make it into the news too often, do they? With the connection of these accused men to politicians, of course the central issue in everyone's mind is: is this a political setup? The more information that is on record, from politicians, about how they know the accused, the more pictures that are out there, the better informed the public is to assess future media stories. Right?
Jon Pertwee

I don't think everyone is wondering if it is a political setup. That's far too paranoid for me. By Brown entering his allegations he's brought the political aspect into it. They were members of the Ontario PC party, not creating policy for Harper so he should have kept his yap shut.

I also dont think that more words from politicians on record is a good thing. Truemuse, in a way you are suggesting a public inquiry and trial by media. We haven't used a trial by mob in quite a few centuries so I'm doubtful that it would work. I think by talking about the problems in the legal system regarding prosecution is also changing the topic from whether the MP did a right thing by his statement. He didn't as he shouldn't have added his partisan attack to blur the trial. This is why we have publication bans: so people can have a fair trial.

http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

I had heard nothing about this story until I took a quick peak at Warren K's site earlier today and saw his photos that were smear by association. I don't know what people think they are proving when they post photo of Kenney/Brown and one of the accused because pols are in photos with knaves and criminals all the time.

And it is also interesting to see how quickly people stop worrying about the rule of law or innocent until proven guilty when there is a political point to be made.

http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

To be fair, it was Brown who first launched the torpedoes at the Liberals, but you're absolutely right that it no way excuses the response. I guess I'm just at a loss to think of what anyone could hope to gain from wading into a situation like this with partisan guns blazing — politically, or otherwise.

http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

I am not really following the story, have to look into it now when I have some free time, but I agree it was moronic of Brown to go with this asinine defence. I have seen Brown a few times on Michael Coren's tv show and he seemed like a reasonable guy/pol. My opinion of Brown will have to be revised after this incident.
http://demosthenes.blogspot.com Demosthenes

It muddies the waters. By associating the people with the opposing party, you can push low-information voters into thinking “bah, they’re all crooks!” and deflect the blame and/or negative association.

At worst, it will reduce turnout. Reduced turnout is something that most conservative parties want. Their core voters turn out more reliably than the other side’s guys, so it’s a huge strategic advantage.

Republicans have been pulling this for ages.
jarrid

Warren Kinsella up to his old tricks I see. Mr. Ignatieff's hand-picked Warroom chief gave notice yesterday that the Liberals will soon be unleashing the dogs of negative advertising. Responding to Tom Flanagan's article in yesterday's Globe, this is what he said on his blog:

"Tom has a thing in the Globe this morning asking why we Liberals have gone "soft," quote unquote, and why we aren't prepared to be tough anymore with the Reformatories.

The short answer is we haven't. Stay tuned. "

Looks like Ignatieff's going Neg.

Mummy

We're discussing serious matters here. Go to your room.
Jon Pertwee

Jarrid, if you don't have anything nice, or relevant to say, please say nothing

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com bigcitylib

The story itself (the original chares) has been bubbling since about Friday. It appeared on NN and Bourque but didn't get much play otherwise because…who knows? Its really quite local story and not such a big deal (although the fact that Hudak hasn't commented on the situation is maybe newsworthy). Now of course that all changes. It amazes me still that pols haven't figured out that talking to your local paper is like talking to the world, if they've got a website up. You think it would be part of their standard media training now, like don't pose in your underwear on facebook and don't get filmed stuffing ten joints in your mouth on youtube.

As for WK, I'm sure he would say an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

"As for WK, I'm sure he would say an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."

I am sure he would as well but I am not certain what Kenney and nannies has to do with Brown/Warraich.

Jon Pertwee

Does it all have to be in a straight line for it to make sense?

catherine

Yes, it is all very sick and sad. The last time I felt as sick (actually, even sicker) about the Canadian political scene is when Liberal supporters were getting their brake line cuts during the election. Sometimes it is very depressing to care about Canada's governance, but, ultimately, it is something worth caring a great deal about.
john g

The people in question weren't even involved in federal politics. Everyone involved except Brown were members of the Ontario Liberals or PCs. As far as I can see, the only reason this idiot even opened his mouth was that the PC candidate who lost in the 2007 election was his uncle.

Words fail…
Kevin

I have to disagree with all who say this is not such a big issue – rape is a hugely serious issue. But I agree with Kady that using it to score political points is reprehensible.

http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

I don't think anyone is suggesting that rape is a serious issue. Perhaps this is a good moment to point out that no one has yet been convicted of anything. (Okay, it's a little too late to remind some people of that, but still.)
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

I don't think anyone is suggesting that rape isn't a serious issue. Perhaps this is a good moment to point out that no one has yet been convicted of anything. (Okay, it's a little too late to remind some people of that, but still.)
http://liberalvideodepot.blogspot.com Old School Liberal

It is the fact that two of the alleged rapists are on the Conservative riding association executive, one being the president, that is the "not a big issue"… at least until Brown decided it WAS a big issue and he had to make it even bigger.

http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

Their political affiliation is irrelevant.

Michael

Exactly. Until Brown decided to make it relevant.

Chet Champion

Brown should be booted from caucus

james

For what, stupidity?

Sigh

It would set a great precedent.

Dean P

The analogy isn't 100% perfect, but it's vaguely similar to what goes on down here in the US–the minute a Republican does something scandalous (think Vitter, Larry Craig, Sanford, Ensign), Fox immediately changes the letter after his/her name to "D".

http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

Really? Doesn't anyone notice?

TJ Cook

Media Matters noticed (along with a number of others over the years). They recently ran a piece showing 6-8 screenshots from Fox News incorrectly identifying various scandalized Republicans as Democrats.

Once or twice could be a typo. Two or three times could be some idealogue in the newsroom. This was undeniably a deliberate pattern.

Honestly, it shocked even me. And I thought Fox News could never shock me again.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

Faux News, indeed. I've never watched it, except for a few clips on youtube, but I never cease to be amazed by the political shenanigans south of the border.
Jenn

Wow, don't you guys have a CRTC-type substance that could shut them down over stunts like this? How about other news organizations making Fox News "and the case of the switched affiliations" a subject for one of their in-depth coverage stories? 60 minutes, that sort of thing. I mean, the allegation is outrageous, and their allegedly getting away with it is doubly outrageous!

http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

Funny. The prevailing complaint is the "Name the Party" game where the affiliation of a disgraced Democrat politician somehow escapes mention in so many news reports.

http://www.TennisVagabond.com Big Dave S

Errr, Kady I will just hop in to say, ditto to you.
I cannot believe the way people are responding to this.
I can believe that people lack the basic decency, but I would think that anyone who can run for public office and/or operate a computing machine would have more intelligence.
John D

I hope everyone with even a modicum of decency can agree that the political affiliation of these (alleged) creeps is irrelevant and no party/MPP/MP/etc/ is any less anti-rape than any other.
knick

Just wondering what the alleged actions of an individual who happens to be a member of a political party have to do with anything. Would it be newsworthy if he was, say, a member of the union, or whatever. The tendency for media outlets and bloggers to go for eyeball grabbing headlines by linking story subjects with hot topics like politics or showbiz plays a role I suspect.

knick

my bad…my reference to bloggers should have said *some* media outlets and bloggers, and most certainly not this one…
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

You're right — in this case, we-the-media are at least partly to blame for linking the original story to a local riding association, although my perennially suspicious little mind can't help but wonder if they may have been tipped off to the connection, since the charges were filed in March.

catherine

There is a difference between a riding association president and just being a member of a political party. Is a riding president a sufficiently significant leadership position to justify newsworthiness, say in the case of a conviction?

knick

Good point. But I still wonder if it was, say, a union shop steward, would *some* news stories and/or blogs make the union part of the story?

http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

I guess that might happen if the shop steward in question was a well known local union spokesperson or advocate — anything that would qualify them as a public figure, but since a good chunk of unionized workers probably aren't even sure who their shop steward is, that would likely be the exception, and not the rule.

scf

The media is completely to blame, if there is blame to be laid. Whether communion wafers or associated with rapists, it's all about the smear job.

http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

I'll readily agree that, in this case, it appears that we do share some of the blame for linking the riding association to the accused for no apparent reason that I can see. But you cannot even pretend to believe that Patrick Brown and others should be absolved from their how-low-can-you-go antics, can you?

catherine

After Brown mouthed off, it definitely became newsworthy. We have a right to know that an MP is behaving like this in his capacity as MP.
knick

Point taken. I *finally* get it…
knick

A less misleading news story headline would have been something like, Tory MP exploits sex scandal allegations against Barrie PC provincial riding association to attack Liberals.
mecheng

But would the Tory have said a word about this if the media hadn't made the link?

In this case, I believe that the story was precipitated by the actions of the media.

Which "may" have been precipitated by some party tipping the media.

Thumbs down to everyone involved.
catherine

Sounds like it didn't hit the news until other board members were resigning in protest of the accused refusing to resign. It clearly affected the entire board and likely affected the riding's fundraising and other activities, so it is not surprising it would hit the local news. If it were not for the internet, this news would have almost certainly stayed local.

It's not clear to me that the local media were wrong to report this. Their job is to report things that are of interest to local readers. The fact that two of the accused were on the riding board, one being the President, and it led to the board being disbanded, likely is legitimate local news. Occasionally riding presidents get into the local news for other reasons, making statements on various local issues or on candidates.

While one can debate what the press should and should not have reported, there is no comparison to Brown's behaviour, which is simply disgusting.
knick

I suspect that if Brown hadn't interjected himself into a provincial matter to try to score cheap political points, it never would have made it to this blog, or anywhere else nationally. Folks in the ROC who don't know about his disgusting behaviour must be wondering why National Newswatch is carrying a story today about the accused court appearance yesterday.

http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

I hate negativity – but considering the pedophile accusations and other horrible stuff by the Cons – well.

This is awful and if innocent these people have a right to clear their names and Brown should step down. He should have stayed out of it.

You get what you give they say – WK hit back and hell breaks lose, yet Harper's people are getting away with what they're doing.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

I'm not picking on you particularly, OT, but at some point doesn't virtue and honour count for anything? So long as "the other guys did it first", there's no core standards by which to stand? No line that won't be crossed?

http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

Normally – you're right, but the Liberals get criticized for not reacting – damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I'm sick of it all.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

I can think of several ways to react – none of which involve tying a gang-rape to one's opponents. And I'll take it a step further – at some point party operatives ought to say to themselves: "If the Canadian public is so stupid as to be swayed by such gutter smears, then we don't want to be their government. Screw them." It's the sort of moral bottom line most of us live our personal lives by, if we want to sleep at night.

http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

First, I just wanted to let you know that I've been nodding my head along in agreement with everything you've posted in this thread so far. Also, it's worth drawing the distinction between the reaction from the local Liberal MPP, Aileen Carroll — who was the principal target of Brown's attack, and as far as I can tell, responded in an entirely appropriate and reasonable fashion – and the smear attempt, which was pretty much the opposite.
http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

Absolutely. Caroll responded without getting stupid. As things stand, the problem is with Brown and Kinsella. I would like to see both axed from their parties, but it's not fair to call this a problem with the broader parties (we'll see how they respond!).

I'm still not sure where I stand on the decision to run the story as a riding president charged, as opposed to a Barrie man charged (with the riding affiliation included deeper in the story).
Mulletaur

No, the problem is with Brown. Warren is just doing his job – hitting back, which is perfectly legitimate. I know there are those that think one should return a low blow with a recital of haiku or quotations from Ghandi, but that's simply not on the agenda – Stéphane already tried that, remember ?

Conservatives had better start realizing that every time they do something dirty, there's going to be payback. If they don't like that, they should start playing by Marquess of Queensberry – including in the federal Parliament, by the way.
http://www2.macleans.ca/category/blogs/national/inside-the-queensway/ Kady O'Malley

You know, you could always “hit back” by criticizing Brown for trying to politicize the situation. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the Liberals — in this case, a provincial Liberal MPP who was actually the target of the attack — shouldn’t refute the allegations.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

Are you sure they were yanked? Click on "Last Activity" at the top of the page, and see if they become visible.
http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

The more pointed ones I made about Kinsella and Brown are gone – also from my homepage view, which suggests they were indeed removed (not lost in the shuffle).

I fully respect that this is a private playground, and that the moderators don't owe me an explanation. On the other hand, I was careful to restrict my words and opinions to the behaviours of those two. I just don't see how I said anything that was out of line. Perhaps they were flagged multiple times, and need moderation before they are allowed to see daylight again.

As a regular participant around here, though, I'd deeply appreciate knowing (even via private email) the reason for removal, should the decision be permanent. Because in this case, I feel like my position is one that deserves to be heard (not because it's necessarily right, I know I'm often not!).
http://intensedebate.com/people/macleans macleans

We're in the process of figuring out the proper settings on the Report Abuse aspect of our comments with IntenseDebate. In general, we try to keep this website Community Moderated, and most editors keep a hands-off approach, except in extreme circumstances. Your previous comment was automatically deleted because it had been reported a number of times by other readers.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

In that case, I would suggest that along with the stub of the deleted comment and a message to the effect that it was deleted due to public complaints, the names of the readers who complained should also be listed. You know, the right to know your accusers. That doesn't matter?
http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

Thank you for letting me know – it honestly means a lot to me.

Can't say I'm thrilled to know that a group with an agenda and time on their hands can gang up and get a comment deleted -regardless of its content – if it serves their purposes to do so. I had assumed that such reports, and the reasons provided, were reviewed first by a moderator before being banished. I'd suggest that reporting be limited to intense debate members, as a way of averting outside poop disturbers (i.e., not really members of the "community" from squelching certain voices or ideas).

But thank you again for letting me know. I might try posting what I said again, if you can't revive the original. Or, I might take this as a sign to stop investing so much in these boards (which isn't a hissy fit or anything, I promise!).
Sigh

Just for the record, since my reply was deleted with your comments, I would like to re-iterate my support for what you said.
john g

I hadn't replied to any of your comments but have agreed with pretty much everything you've written on this topic.
http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

Thank you both, john g and Sigh.

As much as it's cool to know others agree with me, I don't mind if people line up by the hundreds to tell me how wrong I am (particularly when they convince me!).

I thought the thumbs up/down thingy was an okay way for the "community" to indicate support or dersion for any given comment. I still like it best when someone has the balls/ovaries to rebut something they don't like or disagree with.

Upon reflection, the idea that simply "reporting" a comment can have it auto-banished is a bad idea. I've done it myself – maybe five or six times total – for comments that I thought were verging on racist, or where the individual was getting a bit weirdly personal with veiled threats. I always put a reason down, and I assumed a moderator would check into it. Now, I hope I never contributed to the mob disagreement lever of banishment. It's wrong.
Sigh

So that's why so many comments (not just mine, are disappearing). The frequency of it made me suspect a glitch in the system, but apparently its part of the system.
Mulletaur

In other words, you want the Liberals to recite haiku.

The Conservatives are serial recidivists when it comes to dirty political tricks. Fair play is best maintained when both sides have experienced the possible consequences of acting otherwise.
http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

You know, I think this may be one of those issues that separates partisans – of any hue – from nonpartisans; that argument just, well, doesn't seem to hold any weight with someone wo hasn't invested themselves with one of the teams on the field. berried, bien sur.
From: IntenseDebate Notifications
Mulletaur

You may well be right. But "criticizing Brown for trying to politicize the situation" is not something that is going to hold much weight with electors. If you don't hit back at your political opponents when they hit you with a low blow, why should Canadians trust you to stand up and fight for their interests ?
http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

Not really the point in my eyes. I get what you're saying, but this about rising above the fray, not to make the point that you're doing so, just to do it.

http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

Disgusting. Time for some leadership for once. The Liberals should fire Kinsella, and the Conservatives should turf Brown. To politicize this is beyond reprehensible. Both sides should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.

http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP PhilCP

Removing those two players would be a great first step of a long journey.

But it would be a worthwhile journey.

Michael

I agree with firing Brown, but there is no reason to fire Kinsella.

Brown turned this into a political issue, and he smeared the Libs with it. Kinsella merely demonstrated that the smear was fallacious (i.e. the men in question are clearly Cons, despite Brown's assertions).

http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP PhilCP

Kinsella is a hack. I can't recall ever thinking that he added anything worthwhile to the process of governing ourselves.

We should be making every effort to weed out this thuggery and the people who make it happen.

Anon

You notice when the Conservatives have disgraced themselves, it's always "all of them are awful!"

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

Can't say that I have. But even if I play along and agree with your assertion, how is that relevant to a situation where representatives from the two main parties have acted offensively, in tandem?
mecheng

That's an unfair statement. Even Kady is exxesntially saying all of them are afwul.

(Except for the Liberal MPP who acted appropriately thusfar.)

http://www.macleansfordummies.blogspot.com truemuse

I generally like Sun Media reporting. I don't see a thing wrong with the article this post links to. Obviously, gang rape charges don't make it into the news too often, do they? With the connection of these accused men to politicians, of course the central issue in everyone's mind is: is this a political setup? The more information that is on record, from politicians, about how they know the accused, the more pictures that are out there, the better informed the public is to assess future media stories. Right? Lets remember that someone has made an allegation of a terrible crime. That someone cannot be named or come forward. There are so many problems in the legal system around prosecuting rape, so much stigma (still) to the reporting of crimes like this, it is all so difficult….why try to say "now that's low…". Its all low!

Jon Pertwee

is this spam? I've already read this exact comment earlier in this thread.

Scott M.

Much more likely that it's a mistake — users of Google Chrome seem to have their last posted comment remain in the comment box at the bottom of the screen, which has caused me to double-post before.

knick

Seems to happen with Firefox 3.5 too if you don't clear the cache.

jarrid

Warren Kinsella was hand-picked by Michael Ignatieff to manage the Liberal war room in the next election campaign.

He signalled on this blog yesterday that the Liberals were going to be going neg.

http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

Well, hopefully Iggy cans him, but I'm not holding my breath. That would require him to take a position on something. It's disappointing because despite my disdain for the Conservatives, I have no motivation whatsoever to vote Liberal. Would also be a mistake, while their faults are different, Harper is somewhat like Dion in some respects in that he makes his faults pretty visible on his own. He doesn't need a ton of help.
Zeph

WK deranged syndrome?

I mean, we better watch out: Ignatieff *may* (or will eventually) go neg in the next campaign! It's an outrage!
Also, if you don't mind giving me a moment to address a few thing about the opposition parties: the BQ are pedophiles sympathizers, Paul Martin supports child pornography, Dion is a wimp, Ignatief is un-Canadian, Layton is a talibans sympathizer but let's be clear on something, it is unacceptable that Ignatieff may eventually have crossed the line by having WK around.

http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

Isn't this the main part of the problem though? The 'yeah, but..' syndrome. WK's actions IMO have no connection or relevance in regards to what other operatives in any other party say or try to spin. At a certain point you need to look at events and statements as islands unto themselves. Wrong is wrong. Using rape as a vehicle to make a partisan point is wrong. It doesn't matter what one side called another on some other issue.

Zeph

Sure it's wrong but the truth is, we are to blame. It is us that demand and reward mudslinging. You want a clean campaign then convince everyone to punish the party that use these kind of tactics but I won't hold my breath because these tactics actually works.

Also, why do you expect Ignatieff to kick WK out? Imagine the next blog post or newspaper article: "Internal strife in the liberals rank: operative get fired from whatever that guy actually do", not a single newspaper (okay maybe one or two on the fringe) will reward that move but most of them will smell blood and they will seek comments from any disgruntled liberals they can find and give them the spotlight (it's the same with every party which is why apologizes and firing incompetent people rarely happen). Now imagine the headlines when one party attack another: "President of OPC ridding association is a rapist", "Rapists has links with current CPC MP", "Tories charged with rape are actually Liberals". Saying it's not fair don't mean anything for the average Joe who just read headlines. In fact journalists will jump on these stories (as demonstrated by Sun Media above). So again, you blame the wrong person.

Do I like that kind of BS? No. But if these are the rules (or more exactly lack of) then I expect political parties to abide by them; to suffer an honorable but pointless defeat because you wanted to fight with one hand tied behind your back, is… pointless.

Sigh

I don't think it could be said better than this.
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/BCerInToronto BCerInToronto

Given that the accusations against this person don't relate to riding association activities, this isn't a story that belongs in the political realm. So the MP shouldn't even feel the need to defend it, let alone go on the offense and try to pin them to another party. It's a personal matter of that individual un-related to riding activities, just say the legal process will run its course, I support that process, and that's that. No right-minded person is going to think less of the party because of the accusations against this person.

The only thing that's remotely apropos for discussion is the fact the guy apparently refused to resign his riding exec position. But it sounds like the party handled that right. My understanding is the other exec quit in protest, the party stepped in to disband the association, and its being reconstituted. So no story there, in my view.

But then the MP decides to go on offence by trying to tie the person to the other party. How is one supposed to respond then? It's tempting to say ignore the accusations and attacks as beneath contempt, but the world doesn't work that way. When such challenges are being made its dangerous to leave them unanswered. History has made that abundantly clear.

In isolation, the photo would be decidedly offbase, were it an attempt to proactively tie this person to the MP. But when the MP is saying I don't know this guy, he's a plant from the other party, it seems appropriate to proffer it as evidence to refute that, to say no, you knew this guy very well, so why don't you just shut it and be a person and let the legal process do its thing.

I know the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mind, as does "I don't care who started it." But the fact is the MP left little choice but to respond to refute his accusations. Hopefully it ends here, cooler heads prevail, and we can get back to, if not issues, less odious trivialities.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

" It's tempting to say ignore the accusations and attacks as beneath contempt, but the world doesn't work that way."

I know I'm taking a hard line here, but have we completely abandoned the idea that the end cannot always justify the means? I appreciate the real-world dogfight nature of politics, but is decency expendible?
John D

I think it belongs in the political realm because – correct me if I'm wrong – there was an attempt to make the accused resign from his political position. But just because it belongs it the political realm doesn't mean people shouldn't be cautious and respectful.
mecheng

The dissolution of the riding association certainly is news, and I would EXPECT that to be reported.

But the ink devoted to associating the CPC with a gang rape charge was unethical in my mind. As was the attempt by the MP to deflect it to the Liberals.

jarrid

Good point Anon/Ti-G*y, he was only personally picked by Ignatieff to run the Liberal war room next election campaign.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

jarrid, there's something about the sheer relevance and compelling rhetoric of your contributions that has me realizing the real story here: Ignatieff hired Kinsella, and that all of this shows the rot at the core of the Liberal party. Thank you, because until you joined in Anon had me totally convinced that the real story was that the conservatives are the bad guys, and the Liberals never get a fair shake.

Let's just hope a third brilliant partisan like yourselves doesn't come along and sway me yet again – I don't think I could take having my understanding of events thrice shaken to the core.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Wascally_Wabbit Wascally_Wabbit

Kady – this is the Provincial Tory Riding association – right?
the riding association that Patrick Brown's uncle – Joe Tascona – has run for the 4 or 5 times that he has been elected.
My feeling about all this is – Patrick Brown was a sleazy little councillor when he was on Barrie Council – he was a disgrace when – if I recall – he lost at his first run against Aileen Carrol when she was running Federally.
He simply is in a rut…
that's it – you can end the thread now!
http://intensedebate.com/people/Wascally_Wabbit Wascally_Wabbit

Joseph Tascona
Joseph Tascona (born October 9, 1951 in Barrie, Ontario) is a politician in Ontario, Canada. He has been a member of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario since 1995, and represented until defeated in 2007 the riding of Barrieâ€"Simcoeâ€"Bradford for the Progressive Conservative Party.

Tascona is the son of Joe Tascona, a Barrie used car dealer whose advertising dubbed him as "Honest Joe, the working man's pal". He is the uncle of Patrick Brown, the current Conservative federal MP for Barrie.
http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

I would be far more bothered to learn that the (once convicted, if convicted) gang rapists were in a position of authority and trust like a Scout leader or teacher or therapist or Sunday School teacher, more than a president or executive member of a political party's riding association.

And Brown deserves the jeers for getting into the mud to wrestle with the pigs. Is there any other way, besides dignified but outraged silence, to respond to the Kinsellar smears? Yes. Yes, there is. "Gang rape is a serious charge. The commentary that is out there already deserves no response except to be described as beneath contempt. I pray that the victim will recover as much as possible from the ordeal, and I trust the justice system will get to the bottom of these allegations. The accused have been suspended / evicted from the Party until we learn more. You will of course understand, out of respect for the justice system that now has an important job to do, that I will have absolutely no further comment." And even those last two sentences are appropriate if it's your own party.