Unnecessary at any speed

The dream never dies, writes Andrew Coyne, because those pushing high-speed rail are impervious to reality

by Andrew Coyne on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:50pm - 84 Comments

Unnecessary at any speedIt is a special kind of boondoggle that even a politician can resist. People who spend other people’s money for a living aren’t in the habit of asking too many questions at the best of times, still less when even the most colossal waste of funds can be justified as “stimulus.” But when a project promises not only the usual thousands of jobs and billions in spinoff benefits, but to save the earth in the bargain, you’d think they’d be falling over themselves to sign on. But some ideas, it seems, are just too insane.

Hence the latest act in the ongoing, 30-year farce known as high-speed rail. The setting this time is Alberta, but the action is always the same. A consulting firm reports, after many months and millions of dollars, that the latest scheme to link city A to city B by high-speed rail—in this case, Calgary and Edmonton—will cost billions of dollars, in fact billions more than was previously estimated. The politicians take a look at the numbers, blanch, and thank the consultants for their work. The project does not proceed. It never does.

On the other hand, it never seems to die, either. Each study merely becomes fodder for the next. This latest report on the merits of a Calgary-Edmonton train à grand richesse is the third in Alberta in the last three decades. There have been 16, at last count, on the Quebec City-to-Windsor corridor, with stops in 1989 (estimated cost of construction: $2.4 billion), 1990 ($5.3 billion), 1991 ($7.1 billion) and 1995 ($18.3 billion, including interest and inflation). Did that eye-popping 1995 report finally bury the idea? Nope. It’s currently being reviewed by a federal-provincial working group.

The dream never dies, because the people pushing high-speed rail are impervious to reality—either because they are dreamers to begin with, or because they have a vested interest in illusions. The Alberta report, for example, put the cost of linking Calgary and Edmonton—at 300 km, barely a quarter the journey from Quebec City to Windsor—at anywhere from $3 billion, for a humble 125-miles-per-hour diesel upgrade, to $20 billion, for the 300 mph, magnetic levitation special. By 2021, its baseline forecast suggests the train could be carrying between 1.5 million and 5.8 million passengers annually, depending on the technology chosen.

That sounds like a lot, until you consider that the same study estimates total passenger trips between the two cities will have grown to 84 million that year. For an investment of $3 billion, the train would have seized a 1.8 per cent market share. But pony up $20 billion, nearly seven times as much, and it rises to 6.9 per cent—and stays there: the proportions for 2051 are broadly similar. Understand: this was widely seen as an endorsement of the idea.

What’s clear from even the optimistic numbers in the report is that a Calgary-Edmonton line would be hopelessly uneconomic. Whatever technology was used, the estimated net present value of passenger revenues from 2011 to 2051 would not even cover the costs of construction, let alone the operating costs. And that’s before the first shovel in the ground, the first strike, and the first cost overrun. What Albertans would be buying, if the history of these sorts of mega-projects is any guide, would be decades of rising subsidies. Under the circumstances, the response of Alberta’s transportation minister was understandable: “No, no, no, no, no. No.”

It’s at this point that high-speed rail enthusiasts start tapping their foot impatiently. Yes, yes, yes, they say: perhaps it wouldn’t be “profitable.” But what about the environmental benefits? You can’t just measure everything in terms of profit and loss, you know.

No, you can’t. But in fact, there are no environmental benefits to high-speed trains, as such. The tracks are unsightly, they consume large amounts of fossil fuels, and they encourage people to live large distances from each other—sprawl, in other words. And the more you subsidize them, the more you encourage all of these things.

What people mean when they talk about the environmental benefits of high-speed rail are the reductions in environmental harm associated with other modes of transport, notably cars. But these only materialize if large numbers of people do, in fact, leave their cars at home and take the train. There is scant evidence of this. Of those making the journey from Edmonton to Calgary today, fully 91 per cent do so by car. If all goes well, the Alberta study forecast that, decades from now, that number could be reduced all the way to 90 per cent in the $3-billion scenario—88 per cent, if you splashed out for the full $20 billion.

Subsidizing train travel is a peculiarly expensive and ineffective way of getting people out of their cars. Most people won’t find it enough of an incentive to switch. Others would have taken the train anyway, without a subsidy. And even though you are subsidizing a less wasteful mode of transit, the fact remains you are still subsidizing waste.

If you want to make rail travel more attractive, it’s not subsidy you need: it’s entrepreneurs who have risked their own money, lying awake at night thinking of ways to lure people onto their trains. And if you want to encourage people to drive less, there’s a far simpler, more direct route, one that does not expose the taxpayer to huge and unknowable risks. It is to charge the full price of using the highways they drive on—road tolls, in other words.

Rather than subsidize train travel, why not take the subsidy out of driving? Make it more expensive to drive, and I promise you the train will look a lot more appealing in a hurry.

Bookmark and Share
  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    That is an excellent point: why subsidize highway driving if you want to discourage it?

    The other option to encourage train travel is to restrict parking (or raise the parking fees) in each city, thus making the car more like baggage preferably left at home. Of course this also assumes that efficient mass transit from the train station to high-density areas of the city is available.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

    "It is to charge the full price of using the highways they drive on—road tolls, in other words."

    I mostly agree with this column, except for the toll roads bit, because it seems to me the only people who are lobbying for tgv are the few people who travel between Ottawa and Toronto regularly. The only way I would support this is if taxes are reduced elsewhere because I am already paying full price to use highways.

    And is Wells going to give this column a careful reading and respond this week? I hope so. I like it when columnists respond to one another.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

    "It is to charge the full price of using the highways they drive on—road tolls, in other words."

    I mostly agree with this column, except for the toll roads bit, because it seems to me the only people who are lobbying for tgv are the few people who travel between Ottawa and Toronto regularly. The only way I would support toll roads is if taxes are reduced elsewhere because I am already paying full price to use highways.

    And is Wells going to give this column a careful reading and respond this week? I hope so. I like it when columnists respond to one another.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

      Please explain how you are paying full price to use highways? The generally agreed-upon idea is that roads are paid for by everyone in taxes, though not everyone uses them. I don't own a car, and more of my taxes go to roads than bike lanes, bike trails, transit, or pedestrian encouragement. Do you have a special tax deal? :-)

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/hardmouth hardmouth

      Wow jolyon, you paid for the entire 401 all by yourself??

      Oh wait, you didn't. A portion of your taxes, along with 30 million other people, went towards paving roads. In fact (as is the case for every public expenditure), people who don't drive and don't approve of driving get to subsidize your filthy auto habit in the name of 'the public interest', So until you start paying your share *plus* everybody who doesn't use cars, and would choose alternatives if available, you should stop complaining about taxes.

      If public transit is too expensive, then so is public auto infrastructure.

  • Steve M

    There is already an express bus that runs downtown Calgary to downtown Edmonton several times a day. It's perfectly comfortable and very convenient. I take it at least once a month (No, I don't have any financial stake in the bus).

    That said, I think it's a shame that a city as large as Calgary has no access to Via Rail (you have to go to Edmonton).

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Be_rad Be_rad

    I can see the Paul Wells/Andrew Coyne video blog now:

    Smackdown XXXVII: Hands Off My Choo Choo!

  • andy

    Did I miss something? Isn't the obejective of high-speed rail to reduce air travel? That's definitely the best rationale for converting the QC-Windsor corridor.

    • Trevor

      Agreed, Andy. The cover strory on HSR in the Walrus a couple of months ago placed a large emphasis on the reduction in air traffic that would/could result from its implementaion.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

    Sadly, $x billion (where 1 < x < 50) would still have the same difficulty — what percentage of people who want to get from YYZ-YUL in an hour sign on to do it in 3 hours? 2 hours? Yes, there's potential there due to security restrictions, but still.

    (I love the idea of high speed rail, but agree that in our market we need to make it financially viable. the benefits are not there unless we tax the roads and subsidize private rail.)

    • Scott M.

      It takes longer than 3 hours to get from downtown Toronto to downtown Montreal by plane even on the best of days. You'd have a whole heck of a lot of people who would prefer leaving their office on University, walking to Place Bonaventure 15 minutes before departure, getting on the train and working, efficiently, for the three hours.

      The big problem would be with Air Canada… if you take away a huge number of their flights (Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto), they may not be able to survive.

  • http://www.calgarygrit.ca Calgary Grit

    I tend to think that if the rail line went downtown Calgary to Calgary airport to Red Deer to Edmonton airport (LeDuc) to downtown Edmonton, it would get a fair volume of riders. Or, at the very least, if you connected it up to the LRT and C-Train lines (extend the CTrain to the airport in Calgary, and then build high speed rail to go however far south LRT is scheduled to go to in Edmonton).

    It would kill the Greyhound/Red Arrow routes, and hurt the airlines, but, annectdotally, I do think it would get a lot of cars off the road. Especially once gas prices return to the levels they were at last summer (which they should eventually do…if not go higher).

    At that point, even if the cost of a ticket is similar to the cost of driving, if you had a 200 mph train, you'd be shaving an hour off your trip each way. For both business and pleasure, that would be a huge draw.

    Is it worth the price tag? Maybe not in the short run, but there a lot of long term benefits – not just environmental. And if you want to partly pay for it through a toll tax on the highway, I'd be down with that.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

      Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but the plural of anecdote is not data. At what point do we trust the studies that claim it's not really that big an impact?

  • Mulletaur

    Huh. Dream killer !

    Please explain something to me : why is Europe crisscrossed with high speed trains, including Eurostar, Thalys, TGV and even French mail trains for the sake of Zeus, and we are still running slow, uncomfortable, dirty diesel trains ? Does that mean the Europeans are crazy ? have no idea about economics ? are terminal dreamers ? I am anxious to receive your wisdom.

    • Scott M.

      I'm a huge proponent of high-speed rail myself, but I can see the problem with the comparison you're making… the population density within Europe makes it a no-brainer. I think it's still possible to make a business case here, but more difficult because the population density isn't nearly as high, and "free roads" make people think the only cost of driving is their car's gas and maintenance.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

        Agreed 100% – roads aren't free, and it's a huge misconception in North America that must be corrected.

      • Blammo

        Yes I too find it odd that Europe has all this excellent rail, yet we don't. For example, wouldn't a more sparsely populated country have a greater incentive for high speed rail than a densely populated geography? Europe has a greater number of centres to serve, thus one would think that a train would be obliged to do the milk run everywhere. Calgary to Edmonton has bupkus between it; Brussels to Berlin (same distance??) must have millions of people between them…..how does a higher population density encourage high speed trains unless that fast train actually stops to serve these people? What am I missing here?

        • Scott M.

          There's a trick though: Not every train has to stop at every stop. And once the track is in place, you can extend it just a bit and serve other communities. Eg:

          Brussels -> Berlin
          Dusseldorf -> Berlin
          Dusseldorf -> Paris
          Paris -> Hanover
          Paris -> Berlin

          When you have a line with lots of population centres, you can make more high-speed express routes that don't stop everywhere. And extending it (eg. from Brussels to Paris) can add tonnes of more express routes, as long as you have enough track twinning and appropriate signalling systems.

          You can't do that as much in Canada, where a Calgary->Red Deer->Edmonton train really only serves three major centres, and Toronto->Kingston->Montreal or Toronto->Kingston->Ottawa the same.

          • Orson Bean

            Exactly. Alberta is very "Canadian" (read: non-European) in that regard. Alberta's population is extremely unevenly distributed, compared to any of the European areas we're talking about (and I've used all of those Euro rail lines being discussed, and lived there). A ridiculous percentage of Alberta's population lives in Greater Calgary and Edmonton. Absent Red Deer, which ain't exactly a metropolis, there is SFA between Calgary and Edmonton, and anywhere else in the province for that matter.

            There was that one recent article that talked about the high-speed between Madrid and Seville, and pointed out that Greater Madrid had a population of 3.5 million, Greater Saville 1.5. 5m total. Calgary and Edmonton maybe have 2.5m between them, 3 tops. I have personal knowledge of one of the previous Calgary-Edmonton studies, and unless Alberta taxpayers are ready to cough up some serious coin, this ain't happening. So it probably ain't happening, period.

    • DPT

      the answers to your last three questions in order are:
      yes.
      yes.
      yes.

      In summary however they have no compunction about funding anything on the dime of taxpayers regardless of cost or if it makes any sense, the imperative is always spend public money!

      • Mulletaur

        Yeah, that's why they're richer than us.

        • rete

          Incorrect. Of the few European countries that are richer than us (Luxembourg, Switzerland, Norway, Ireland, Netherlands), two have no high-speed rail, and three have a lower overall tax burden.

    • rete

      Europeans are even meeker than Canadians at standing up against taxation-to-death. High-speed rail is not profitable business anywhere. The International Union of Railways estimates that only two routes worldwide break even: Tokyo to Osaka and Paris to Lyon; the rest depend on heavy direct public subsidies. Those criss-cross high-speed rail routes is part of the reason the average EU nation's tax/GDP ratio is 10 points higher than Canada's.

      • Scott M.

        Can you tell me what Canadian busline would be profitable if they had to pave the roads?

        Can you tell me what Canadian airline would be profitable if they had to build and maintain all of the airports they use instead of paying artificially low rents and having the public dime carry the weight?

        How many car dealerships would be out of business if the government didn't build the road infrastructure?

        Perhaps you are genuinely willing to have user-pay for every mode of transportation, but if not, why are you holding Rail up to a higher standard than all others?

        • sbt

          But what service does high-speed rail provide that those others don't? It's time saved compared to flying (if any) is insignificant and it doesn't have the local aspect of roads or mass transit. In short, it does not add anything essential to our transportation infrastructure that does not already exist. Why spend more taxpayer dollars to provide an unnecessary service? That's basically the definition of government waste.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/SirJohn_Eh SirJohn_Eh

          Excellent points but still does not help the cause – we cant (dont want to) add that much to our tax levels for that amount of benefit . If only a government could build the tracks and stations (or connections to existing stations) and a privately run train operator could make a viable business plan that includes paying for their trains and paying back a (extremely long term) govt held loan on the infrastructure (aka stimulus? :P )

        • rete

          Actually, I'm not holding rail up to a higher standard than others. I guess it's a fact that even the best-run rail systems don't cover the capital costs stemming from their development. That is probably acceptable as long as the system can cover it's operating cost. If it doesn't, it becomes a black hole for taxpayer money; just like so many crappy national airlines remain black holes for taxpayer money. Some would say this doesn't matter; high-speed rail would offer "additional quality of life", save the planet from Venus-style out of control global warming due to the positive feedback effect of increased CO2 emissions if we stay in cars and planes, and other touchy-feely benefits. But personally I don't agree with this view.

          This Calgary-Edmonton HSR proposal will likely never cover it's operating costs, and if it can't it shouldn't move forward. The Acela Express (granted, not exactly a bullet-train, but still the fastest service on the continent) that runs between Boston and DC carried 3.3million passengers in 2008 through the northeast corridor with a population of 55 million. Calgary-Edmonton corridor has population 2.2 million. For a HSR system to carry 5.8 million passengers between these 2 cities 12 years from now, the social engineering effort to get Albertans out of their cars and away from airports would have to be Orwellian in nature. Fail.

    • wayne moores

      Very simple answer and it comes up everytime this boondoggle rears it's ugly head. Europe has over 300 million potential customers and we have a tenth of that. Subtract from that number the people who live in the Maritimes, BC, Sask, Manitoba and you have very few passengers for your 20 billion of taxpayers money. This would be nothing but another hidden transfer payment to Bombardier and Quebec. I suspect that is the reason this idea is dead but just refuses to lay down. As far as car owners getting a free ride, I would love to see a cost analysis of just how much in taxes and fees government collects during the lifetime of each car. With the implamentation of the GST/HST years ago on new and used cars, plus the fact that half of the price of gas is tax(we already have a massive carbon tax but the eco-fanatics never admit it, but I digress), I doubt it's car owners getting a free ride. A chunk of my taxes goes to subsidize buses, which I never use, but I have no problem with that.

      • Andrew (not P or C)

        Well, I will point out that the Green Shift acknowledged the existing carbon tax on gasoline. But that is a tax on carbon and not a price for roads.

        In terms of congestion, to solve that you really need at least time of use pricing (premium during peak use) if not dynamic pricing based on congestion.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/tdotlib tdotlib

    What of the economic benefits to the cities and communities that HSR would connect? As a sales rep for a small business being able to hop on the train in the morning, hit 2 or 3 clients in Montreal and be back in Toronto for dinner would be amazingly beneficial to mine and my organization's revenue.

    Not to mention the fact that you'd basically be linking two major downtowns in Toronto and Montreal (not to mention Ottawa) immediately increasing the potential market for theatres, clubs, restaurants and hotels.

    The cost needs to be looked at versus profitability but also the ripple-effect economic benefits.

    • plus one'd

      You have probably never heard of supply chain economics. European infrastructure, and moreover carbon taxes, cannot be compared to Canada. Here's why:
      Europe (size), 10,000,000 km2; Canada (size), 9,500,000 km2.
      Europe (pop.), 731 Mppl; Canada (pop.) 33.5M

      If your market size grew 21 fold overnight with no appreciable strain on needed infrastructure, there would be a better justification for HSR due to higher population density and potential for profit. unfortunately, only greenland has us beat for lack of population density. even if you took everything north of edmonton out of a size comparison, we'd still be far short of any european population density.

      And if I may play devil`s advocate, things like this can also cause economic deterioration, like theauto industry, bus industry, the short haul airline industry (west jet, jazz, porter, etc), these job losses will be primarily blue collar (maintenance) and service oriented (sales and stewards), driving up social program costs from the government because you just put 5,000 minimum wage folks out on the street, meaning higher taxes, but it`s ok, you made a few extra bucks in montreal. preach on, richard florida.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

    I agree there are plenty who would love it. Porter fills that niche nicely though – from Bay Street it only takes 30 mins worst case to get there, 30 mins of relaxing in the lounge, and 70ish mins in the air. Porter would suffer, Air Canada would suffer, but there would still be lots of air travel too. Key question: what's the true goal here?

    • Scott M.

      Porter's a little better, but they still fly to the same away-from-downtown airport in Montreal, and they're crippled by the lack of a bridge to downtown.

      To me, the true goal should be moving large amounts of people at the least cost to the environment. But I recognize other folks' priorities as well: maintaining a viable airline industry, jobs, etc.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/c_9 c_9

        Agreed on the goal. And agreed on Montreal's disadvantage vs Toronto City Centre airport. I hope to end up with airline(s) that survive based on supportable routes, and rail that survives based on supportable routes. There ought to be plenty of room, but it's hard to tell with all the subsidies clouding the air.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Anatoli Anatoli

    Andrew, check your math!
    I was surprised to read your Opinion about high-speed train project in Alberta. Based on some "consulting research" you argue that train may not divert substantial number of 300 million drivers from the highway.
    A simple math shows that this number is hardly realistic:
    1. A regular year has 525,600 minutes (365*24*60)
    2. A safe distance between cars of 40 m at average speed of 80 km/h results in 1.8 second interval between cars or 33 cars per minute. This a maximum theoretical capacity per lane.
    3. At 75% highway load of maximum capacity a 4-lane highway (2 in each direction) we shall have 52,560,000 cars per year

    Though the above assumptions are already stretched beyond reasonable the result is still way below 300 million. So unless the highway in question has 8 lanes and each car carries 3 passengers it is difficult to imagine how 300 million trips between Calgary and Edmonton per year. Practically, I think a max number of 25 million trips is much closer to reality.

    Here goes your main point in highway vs train comparison.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      Also, he manages to confuse "passengers" with "passenger trips". So far as I'm aware, most people who take a trip from one city to another, at some point take the trip back as well. So that's 2 passenger trips for each passenger.. and that's if you assume they only go once per year.

      Were I of a more cynical mind, I might think he did so deliberately to bolster his argument.

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      Also, he manages to confuse "passengers" with "passenger trips". So far as I'm aware, most people who take a trip from one city to another at some point take the trip back as well. So that's 2 passenger trips for each passenger.. and that's if you assume they only go once per year. Given that one of the main draws for this is supposedly to support business, it strikes that one trip per year may be a little shy of the total number of "passenger trips" each "passenger" takes.

      Now, for the ugly question — is this confusion deliberate so as to bolster the argument, or simply poor fact-checking/writing? Neither answer speaks highly of the writer.

  • John D

    In Ottawa there is constant whining about needing a new bridge. Put up a bunch of bridges and toll the hell out of them I say. I use the bridges and since I CHOOSE to live on a different side of the river than I work I should have to pay. Unfortunately people think they should be able to drive anywhere for the price of a car.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/NotStephen Not Stephen Colbert

    Good column, Mr. Coyne, though it's perhaps worth pointing out that it would take one hell of a massive increase in the price of driving to make the train a more attractive option for getting between Edmonton and Calgary, given that at present the quickest option for doing so involves two different train companies and goes through Kamloops.

    Okay, it's not THAT worth pointing out, given the existence of relatively decent bus service between the cities that stays within the province and would no doubt be the first option for most people who gave up driving their own cars, but still.

  • Ulf W

    European rail network, initially built for troop movement… Likewise the highways…

  • Stewart Smith

    Dumb column, Mr. Coyne. One of the fairly fundamental requirements of a modern society is to provide transport infrastructure. Rails, airports, roads. These may well be privately financed, but given they do need a lot of regulation they are always a public responsibility. They also should make sense, that means they need to be interconnected and if you want people to use them they have to reach critical mass. Taking the subsidy out of the highway system would effectively mean no more new highways or major repairs.

    In Europe they have made the rail system make sense. Just making cars impractical in North America is not going to lead to a similar state of affairs. We have decisions to make as to what kind of a system we want. Airports cost billions, road cost billions so why is it any surprise high speed rails cost billions. You may be right that the rail solution is impractial but by throwing out a few numbers without a coherent comparision… you are just kickin up dust.

  • Jim

    How successful economically, environmentally are the high speed trains in other countries?

  • http://www.citymydada.blogspot.com Karen

    Public transportation is about social equity and about integrating economies. The 'dream' to integrate the smaller economic life of Calgary and Edmonton has been a long time in the making. I've travelled that road, made that 4 hour long winter drive in the freezing cold, between the two cities, because the market for the software my company sold was small. If I had to go to Alberta from Toronto to sell and service software, my company needed the markets of both cities to justify a presence in Alberta. So living as far away as I do, in Toronto, I can understand the desire to link these two cities through rail transit, rather than through sprawling suburbs between them. The net economic benefit of improved markets for everyone participating in the economies of both cities will pay for the investment.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/davidelewis davidelewis

    How much was originally spent on the Edmonton – Red Deer – Calgary highway (in 2009 dollars) to get it to its' current condition? How much is now spent each year maintaining the highway? How much more will be spend to widen or expand the highway in future years to accommodate more passengers (assuming growth in Alberta)? Add to all this, the cost incurred by the 84 million passengers to make this trip each year.

    Accordingly, if 5.8 million passengers take high-speed rail each year, what are the reductions in highway maintenance, future expansion/repairs and individual passenger transport costs. If this value lies somewhere in the $3 to $20 billion range – then from a financial perspective, the high speed rail makes sense.

    Of course there are many compelling environmental reasons ….

  • Mulletaur

    'do', rather.

  • Pete

    Is it possible to study a train plan when incorporating the idea of tolls, carbon taxes, and higher gas taxes? How much does car driving have to cost to make trains financially realistic?

  • KCinQC

    My understanding of the "ideal" HSR, is one that is electric, such as the TGV's in France. Depending where the energy comes from (Hydro, wind, solar, dare I say nuclear? I'd rather not), there is no pollution.

    The benefits of electric HSR's are multiple:
    • By far, they have the smallest carbon foot-print of any form of mass transportation.
    • No diesel engines, means no on board fuel (no batteries either as the energy comes to the train via an overhead wire) which means the trains are much considerably lighter and therefore even more efficient.
    • Much faster than traveling by car (TGV's can theoretically reach speeds of 500 km/hr, but for the time being travel close to 300 km/hr.)
    • Downtown to downtown travel, means it's likely faster to take a TGV on trips of less than 500km than a plane, even though the plane is flying faster, since your route is likely downtown to airport to airport to downtown.
    • I'm not entirely sure, but I believe trains schedules are much more reliable since weather is much less of a potential issue.

    All in all, if the few points I've listed above are valid, I suspect electric HSR would do very well economically.

  • scissorpaws

    Make trains free. Unlimited use, drastically reduce traffic, increased business traffic between all points means more velocity of capital within a region, keeps the money at home, makes the region more attractive to tourists, all increasing the take from taxes. It's going to be subsidized anyway, make it ludicrously attractive. You can delay or eliminate building new roads, make downtowns smaller, cozier. It will increase the numbers of customers merchants in all connected cities can draw from, so boutique shops can thrive in previously unimagined places. And roads won't be so congested so even people who cling to their SUV religion will be happier. Other benefits I don't have time here to mention; use your imagination.

  • KCinQC

    Check out the next gen HSR being developed:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotrice_%C3%A0_g…

    Up to 650 passengers at 360 km/hr without using any fossil fuel.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    People who like to travel really really fast for some reason really really don't want to pay full price.

    Tolls on superhighways: a most emphatic YES.

    Higher taxes on gasoline: a hesitant yes, depending on what the auditors say about how much is raised already to mitigate costs of road networks, road safety, pollution control, even a little public transit subsidy…

    Still more taxpayer money to Bombardier so Wells can zip around between Ottawa, TO and Montréal marveling at the little chocolate thingies they serve in first class? Please…

From Macleans