Abousfian Abdelrazik speaks out

by kadyomalley on Thursday, July 23, 2009 9:45am - 64 Comments

090723_abdelrazik10:20:09 AM
Greetings, fans of truth and justice for all, including Canadians moored in dire circumstances abroad! ITQ is on the scene at – sigh, the Charles Lynch Press Theatre, which, for the record, is definitely *our* second choice ballot pick when it comes to Hill media venues. It’s small, and cramped, and there’s no simultaneous interpretation, so unless the speaker du jour brings along a French or English body double, Sheila Weatherill-style.

Anyway, the room is filling up quickly, and there is, of course, a camera crew gauntlet to be run in the hall, but otherwise, nobody really knows exactly how today will unfold. Will we have a series of consecutive/concurrent press conferences in reaction, like with the Weatherill report? Nobody knows. Oh, except we *do* know that the government – or at least Lawrence Cannon – will have no comment to make. They complied with the court order, and that’s all they have to say.

Ooh! He’s here!

10:26:44 AM
Well, his *team* is here, at least — and I think I may have spotted the star of the show amongst the dozen-or-so lawyers, advisers and well-wishers in his entourage. Team Abdelrazik comes bearing documents, it turns out – very ominious documents that I’m probably not going to have the chance to go through in detail before this starts. They involve Foreign Affairs, though — I can tell you that much. I’m sure he’ll have more to say when he takes the floor.

10:30:08 AM
Okay, I can also confirm that there is an impressive list of experts available for comment, according to the news release, from Gerry Caplan to Warren Allmand to Maher Arar, and all the usual suspects in between.

10:32:31 AM
And there he is – really this time – walking to the – is that a lectern? Oh, I’m not going through this again, let’s just say it is – accompanied by two lawyers, one of whom is giving us an overview of what we’re going to hear. One of my colleagues just spotted Irwin Cotler, and I swear I saw Serge Menard earlier, but that might have been a hallucination. I keep thinking that I see Tom Flanagan out of the corner of my eye; it’s quite disconcerting.

Anyway, he’s speaking now – I’m definitely going to be using that pronount a lot, since it’s easier to type that Abelrazik – and sounds like a man more inspired than outraged, as odd as that may be. He starts out by describing the harassment he and his family have endured at the hands of CSIS — including while his wife was dealing with cancer — as well as her father. It’s a tale that is, sadly, not all that shocking, or terribly hard to believe; I was at Maher Arar’s first press conference, when you could have heard a pin drop, but so much has come out since then that it’s hard to be surprised by these revelations. Not, I should note, that this makes his claims any less harrowing, if true.

10:38:21 AM
He’s going through the story chronologically – we’re in 2003, and his wife has died; he’s still being tormented by CSIS, and he wants to go back to Sudan. He called the police on CSIS – hah! – who proceeded to ask the agents to leave – wouldn’t you love to have been a witness to that? – and a short time afterwards, he does, indeed, go back to Sudan to take care of his mother. Despite being on the other side of the world, he’s still being stalked — this time, by Sudanese intelligence.

10:40:50 AM
And now, the imprisonment — twelve days in a cell no more than a metre and a half, and no idea why. “Kind of scary,” he comments, somewhat spectacularly understating it.

Finally, they began questioning him — but about Canada, not Sudan, leading him to the obvious conclusion that it was CSIS that orchestrated this particular little venture in outsourcing intelligence gathering. He notes that he didn’t have the right to ask where they were taking him — the Sudanese police, I think — but they told him that his “friends” — his “Canadian friends” wanted to talk to him, and proceeded to bring him to a room with a “big table”, full of — cakes, and other food. (Must not make cookie joke.) He stood behind the table, and a man told him that, as he – the man – told him in Montreal before he left, he – Abelzrazik “would see”. Whereupon they asked him the same questions, over and over. He asked to go home – to Canada, and his chldren – and even offered to face charges there, if they had evidence, but the agent – or whatever he was – dismissed that — he was Sudanese, not Canadian, and this would be his Guatanemo.

10:46:59 AM
At that point — after he’s taken back to the Sudanese prison — the torture begins, and it just keeps going. He begs them to bring him to court, or hire him a lawyer, but the response is that there are no lawyers, no trials, and if he doesn’t “shut his mouth”, he will “face difficulties”. He went on a hunger strike for seven days, which got him transferred to “another place”. We’re up to July 2004 now, and he’s still trying to get back to Canada, but even when the Canadian consul meets with him, he discourages him — why not deal with the situation there? He then “stops by” the Canadian embassy, and meets with the ambassador, and that he was afraid he would be arrested again, but the ambassador assures him that won’t happen. He, not ununderstandably, is sceptical, and explains the history of being arrested, re-arrested and kidnapped by the Sudanese police; which, as it turns out, is what happens next. (No, I’m not totally clear on the timeline either — my apologies — I’m just trying to follow the narrative as closely as possible.) Anyway, he heads back to prison for another seven months, and it’s the same thing — beaten by a hose, tied to a door, “other horrible stuff”. It’s worse, though, because he also got sick — malaria, typhoid, more hunger striking. But the situation continues.

10:52:58 AM
In March 2008, he ends up at the Canadian embassy — no, I’m not sure when he got out of prison — only to be interrogated; about his views on Bin Laden, on Israel, on the September 11 attacks. He tells the interrogator – not clear if it was the ambassador, or an attache – that he wants to go back to Canada, and – oh, apparently there were MPs at this meeting, including Deepak Obhrai, who had no reaction when he showed them his scars. He told Obhrai that he wanted to go back to Canada, and he – Obhrai – wouldn’t even look at him, although he did tell him that he wouldn’t be going back to Canada.

A month later, he went public with his story, and his lawyers advised him to take sanctuary in the Canadian embassy — which, for him, was like a prison itself; the torture was mental, not physical, but still took its toll. After fourteen months, he finally made it back to Canada.

10:56:18 AM
“This has been a very difficult time for me,” he – one again – understates. I — just don’t think it’s possible for any of us to truly understand, unless our names happen to be Maher Arar, or one of the others etched in recent regrettable history — and it’s not over. He needs his name off the watchlist, and he wants to live his life like a normal person – a normal Canadian – and he wants those who played a role in his ordeal to face justice.

10:58:11 AM
And — questions. First up, the Globe’s Paul Koring – who has owned this story, y’all – who wants to know if he could identify the CSIS agents who interrogated him; yes, he could – thin, tall, he’d know him if he saw him.

10:59:33 AM
Global National wonders whether he has any idea *why* CSIS was so relentless in its pursuit of him. Had he ever done anything that would have invoked such a response? He doesn’t know — but repeats his offer; if there is evidence against him, bring it forward.

11:00:39 AM
A question for the lawyers, from CTV’s Bob Fife, on the correspondence that appeared in the Globe earlier this week, which suggested that the Canadian government was prepared to let the Sudanese authorities kill him. The lawyer – sorry, I didn’t catch his name – agrees there should be accountability.

11:02:13 AM
How does he feel about CSIS and the Canadian government, after his ordeal? I would’ve thought that would be an easy question, but it isn’t — he’s clearly struggling to put what he describes as “mixed feelings” into words. He’s not seeking compensation at the moment — he wants his name off the list — but leaves the door open to doing such in future.

11:03:39 AM
What does he have to say to the “grassroots people” who supported him, and brought him back to Canada? Thank you. It was a little longer than that, but that’s the gist, and it’s all that has to be said, no?

11:04:26 AM
A question from the back on the process of removing a name from the list, which requires ministerial involvement; so far, the minister responsible — Peter Van Loan — hasn’t been willing to meet with them.

11:05:45 AM
Asked about what his life is like now – in Montreal, that is – his answer is poignant: He may be free, but when he walks the streets, he’s still in isolation; he can’t look for a job, or even get health care.

11:06:53 AM
Oh, on the matter of the accountability that he wants to see — his lawyer steps in to explain that at this point, he’s not made any decision on seeking compensation, but he does want answers from the government entities involved. He won’t list them – oh, lawyers, always so cautious – but notes that we can infer which ones would be on his list.

11:08:10 AM
The Toronto Star’s Joanna Smith asks him to respond to the allegations against him – tried to join Al Qeyda, something about wanting to fight with the Chechens — and he notes that he’s a Muslim, but he’s never seen Bin Laden in his life, and — wait, there’s some reporter here that I’ve never seen before, and I suspect may be a – shall we say, a citizen journalist, who just interrupted her in mid-followup, which is — really not going over well with the rest of us. A lot of “Who the hell *is* that” being mouthed to each other.

11:10:21 AM
Oh, and he doesn’t remember who the other MPs were at that meeting — in 2008, I believe — just Deepak Obhrai.

11:12:47 AM
A few questions about what, exactly, he was asked about by the CSIS-linked interrogator in Sudan — why Israel? Why Hamas? Had he ever even been to Afghanistan? No, he hadn’t, it turns out — and as for Israel, he told Obhrai repeatedly that he wasn’t even Palestinian — he was Sudanese — and he’d never been to Palestine *or* Israel.

11:14:34 AM
One final question, it turns out — about the response from the government to the Globe story, in which Foreign Affairs pointed out that he had been living open and freely in Sudan, and had even remarried and had another child. His response? Yes, he did remarry and have a child — and no, they’re not in Canada now. But on that enigmatic note, his lawyer wraps things up, leaving us to try to figure out what, exactly, we’ve heard.

And that’s it for me — hey, there’s Dr. Dawg! If there are any followup pressers, I’ll be there, but for the moment, I’m going to sign off and try to read through these documents.

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  • tobyornottoby

    "I keep thinking that I see Tom Flanagan out of the corner of my eye"

    I advise seeing an opthamologist without delay.

  • Scott M.

    Watching it now. Wow.

    Wow.

    I feel so ashamed that CSIS thinks they're working for me. This is horrible.

  • Scott M.

    Deepak Obhrai has a few questions to answer.

    • Scott M.

      Or, for that matter, apply for a job? If it's residency requirements, I'll personally protest the RAMQ office that ruled he can't have a health card for 3 months.

  • Dakota

    So, did this guy or did he not take a second (or more) wife while he was in Sudan? Sounds like a good wholesome Canadian to me.

    Does his second wife and the children he fathered with her now get free passes into Canada and access to our social services?

    Canadian taxpayers lose again.

    • Andrew (not P or C)

      Unbelievable.

    • Scott M.

      Holy crap, this man has just told a story of being tortured based on Canadian intelligence with Canadian knowledge and all you can ask is if the people he met "get free passes in Canada"?

      REALLY?

      My god, you have an absolutely despicable set of values.

      Anyway — you do recognize that other Canadian citizens have kids all the time and they have a "free pass" and "access to our social services"? It's not like this guy was willingly away for all this time. I'm sure he'd rather have been home.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

      "Does his second wife and the children he fathered with her now get free passes into Canada and access to our social services? "

      Jason Kenney? Is that you?

    • Hanging Out

      If that's an official PMO smear/talking point, I think it needs a little work.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

        Not really since the question about the new wife/kids made its way into the Q&A during the presser. Aaron Wherry also did a blog on that. I'd say that their tactic has worked wonderfully so far…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

    THis might be a dumb question but what would his views on Israel have any bearings on this whole affair? Why would a Canadian official ask him that?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

      I believe there's a substantial jackpot waiting for the first person to find a Muslim who approves of Israel's conduct.

  • Scott M.

    And his first wife had died before he left Canada, btw. What's with the "(or more)" business? Pathetic.

    • Dakota

      I’m not to sure where you got the info that his first wife died because she is apparently living in Montreal with his child. She divorced him while he was in Sudan, not sure if marrying another woman and having children with her had anything to do with that though.

      The press seems to leave some of the story out, not sure why.

      • libartsandminds

        He said that she died before he left. Did you even listen to the presser?

      • Alex

        "He’s going through the story chronologically – we’re in 2003, and his wife has died"

        I was watching it on TV, and it was pretty clear when he said that his wife had died. Are you saying that he's a liar?

        • Dakota

          Apparently there was a zombie wife waiting for him when he arrived back in Montreal then. Or maybe she really isn't dead!

          I guess he forgot about that wife.

      • Scott M.

        Abdelrazik himself said at 10:06 this morning, and I quote:

        …"while she [his wife] is in the hospital, they [CSIS] went to her to seek that information. I don't know what kind of information. But, ah, after a while my wife she passed away. Me, in the same time, I received news from Sudan that my mother was sick. My wife she passed away, CSIS put a lot of pressure on me, and my mother she sick in Sudan, just — I planned just to leave, to leave the country and go and see my mother and have a little bit of a break because I'm really under pressure."

        Pretty clear to me.

        • Dakota

          Here is the link again; I guess he forgot about this wife and her three kids.

          http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/2…

          How many other wives does he have?

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            That's his EX-wife in the CTV story. They call her his "wife" but they're not technically correct. She divorced him while he was in exile and it looked like he'd never be allowed back again (and, to be fair, he was being erroneously accused of some pretty bad stuff).

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        His first wife died of cancer in 2001. His second wife divorced him when it seemed clear he'd been exiled to Sudan and would never be let back in to the country, and he was being erroneously accused of some pretty bad things. He apparently married again in Sudan once it became clear that he'd likely be stuck there forever, but I don't see how that's either here nor there.

        • Dakota

          Thank you, that is all I was asking was for some clarification on some conflicting stories. There is a big difference between an Ex-wife and a wife when you are remarrying.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

            Dude, I'm embarrassed for you…

          • Anon

            Next time do your own homework before bothering everyone else.

    • Dakota

      Here is a link stating that his Canadian wife (His third I believe) and three kids where at the airport waiting for him when he arrived, I assume she was alive.

      http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/2…

      To my knowledge, it's still illegal to have more then one wife in Canada isn't it?

      So, back to my question, did he or did he not marry another woman in Sudan?

      ps. The "(or more)" buisness is based on the fact the man is on his fourth (or more) wife.

      • Scott M.

        Yes, he did.

        Do you not think there's a chance that media has got it wrong? I'm much more likely to believe a person who said his wife died — he would know.

        • Dakota

          Oh, I'm sure it is all a big mistake then. There is no way this guy could forget he was already married with children right?

          I wonder who the strange woman with the kids at the airport was then?

          • Leigh

            Is it possible that this woman who met him at the airport is his ex-wife? Seems reasonable to me, especially if he had children with her. Surely they would want to see their father after so long a time.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

            i hope that there is such a thing as karma in this world.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

    Why can't he get access to healthcare?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

    Can someone explain to me why some are making such an issue of the fact that he remarried and had children? What does that have to do with anything?

    • libartsandminds

      Classic, look at the shiny object tactic. In other words, idiocy

      • dunno

        Yes indeed, and Dakota managed to get quite a few people to reach for the shiny bead and stray for a while.

        Why did Canada spend so much time trying to keep this Canadian in a foreign jail?

    • Dakota

      Probably beause he already had a wife in Canada that he fathered three kids with.

      http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/2…

      Jut a guess, but some Canadians might be curious about how many wives he has.

      • Scott M.

        Even if it is true, which I highly doubt, is adultery is a torture-worthy offence? If not, why do you care so much?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

        You are, for one.

        Sadly for you, the link actually talks about him being reunited with his "family" and his "stepdaughter", yet seems to make no mention of the word "wife'.

        You inferred the presence of a wife. Which kind of makes the six previous posts with this link a little, well…wrong.

        • Dakota

          This is a quote from the article, near the bottom. “Abdelrazik also comes home to a wife and three children who haven't seen him for six years.”

          I guess you just didn’t bother to read the whole thing, which makes your post, well, wrong.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

            Hey, fair enough. I missed that. And yet, it still seems like it would be way up the top of the story if anyone thought it was important. So, quick, start your own paper, and get the news out to everyone!

          • Dakota

            But pointing out that he's a polygamist wouldn’t help endear him to the public. The media seems intent on turning him into some kind of hero to justify the outrage they showed at the pace the government had with returning him to Canada.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

            "But pointing out that he's a polygamist wouldn’t help endear him to the public."

            I see. So it is important to you that the man not receive any sympathy hence your focus on the first wife.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/macf macf

        his first wife died in 2003 – see Kadys post

        • Dakota

          Maybe Kady has omitted a few facts from her blog.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

            Kady doesn't do that. Honestly, I'm sort of baffled by your – and a few others – obsession with that point, particularly since the way I read the statement from Foreign Affairs — you know, the one you seem to be using as a talking point — the important bit, from their perspective, was that he "lived openly and at large" in Sudan during the time that he claims to have been under constant harassment. It wasn't "He's an adulterous polygamous! Let's all talk about that instead of, you know, CSIS!"

        • Lord Kitchener's Own

          Actually, no, I believe his first wife died of cancer in 2001 (keep in mind, CSIS was harassing him long before he went back to Sudan to take care of his ailing mother in 2003). His second wife divorced him while he was basically exiled in Sudan (to be fair, he was erroneously being accused of some pretty bad stuff, and there was every reason to believe he'd never be allowed back in to Canada again). This is the "wife" in the article that Dakota keeps referencing (over and OVER again). That article SHOULD refer to her as his EX-wife, but just says wife (erroneously). When it seemed like he'd never be allowed to leave Sudan, he married a woman in Sudan, some time after his second wife had divorced him.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

            wow LKO that seemed like it was bloody well hard to figure out. i mean you must have to read you know from more than one article and even consider context. how could be expect dakota to pull that off?

            does anyone know if inferring that someone is a polygamist – a criminal activity no? – as dakota has just done, constitutes slander?

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

            wow LKO that seemed like it was bloody well hard to figure out. i mean you must have to read you know from more than one article and even consider context. how could be expect dakota to pull that off?

            Thanks very much LKO for clearly setting the record straight.

            does anyone know if inferring that someone is a polygamist – a criminal activity no? – as dakota has just done, constitutes slander?

          • Dakota

            As LKO has pointed out, the article I quote did refer to his Ex-wife as his wife. My mistake for believing what the media writes.

            I take back my accusation of polygamy, which had it been true, would have been an issue.

            It does make me wonder if he will divorce his Sudanese wife now and re-marry his Canadian one.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

            Seriously? That's your fallback statement?
            Do you spend a lot of time peering out your window, writing stuff down?

            You might want to spend less time speculating on potential character failings of other people. Not healthy at all.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

            "As LKO has pointed out, the article I quote did refer to his Ex-wife as his wife. My mistake for believing what the media writes."

            Uhm, that is not quite the whole story Dakota. You were kindly clearly presented with information that the article might be erroneous, including Scott M.'s explicit suggestion that this might be the accurate explanation: "Do you not think there's a chance that media has got it wrong? I'm much more likely to believe a person who said his wife died — he would know."

            You sarcastically dismissed that possibility ("Oh, I'm sure it is all a big mistake then. There is no way this guy could forget he was already married with children right? I wonder who the strange woman with the kids at the airport was then?") and than continued to suggest that Abdelrazik had committed polygamy.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

            "As LKO has pointed out, the article I quote did refer to his Ex-wife as his wife. My mistake for believing what the media writes."

            Uhm, that is not quite the whole story Dakota. You were kindly and clearly presented with information that the article might be erroneous, including Scott M.'s explicit suggestion that this might be the accurate explanation: "Do you not think there's a chance that media has got it wrong? I'm much more likely to believe a person who said his wife died — he would know."

            You sarcastically dismissed that possibility ("Oh, I'm sure it is all a big mistake then. There is no way this guy could forget he was already married with children right? I wonder who the strange woman with the kids at the airport was then?") and then continued to suggest that Abdelrazik had committed polygamy.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

            Here is a summary of Canadian defamation law:

            http://www.duhaime.org/LegalResources/TortPersona…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

    The Government must respond to this. There are no "state security" reasons that could outweigh the damage Abdelrazik's story is doing to CSIS's reputation. The Government must disclose why they had it in for Abdelrazik, promises to the CIA (or whoever it was) be damned. I know the CPC might want to milk this for votes with the paranoid right, but the damage this could do to our actual state security — by discrediting our security agency — surely outweighs partisanship.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

      agreed, though I fear, like the RCMP, that it may be too late Jack. The state has now had nine years to make a case against this man. CSIS better be able to present a substantive case, like yesterday; if not CSIS is any more than a professional harassment unit. Given they and the RCMP have already cleared Abdelrazik of any connection to terrorism this is appalling.

      Also whoever called him a "tourist", told him that he was "not Canadian" and that "my country did not need you" should face the most severe penalty available, whether it is termination from a foreign service position or, hopefully, we have some law on the books that precludes individuals from unilaterally withdrawing citizenship from fellow Canadians.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

      Maybe his lips had changed.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

    "There are no "state security" reasons that could outweigh the damage Abdelrazik's story is doing to CSIS's reputation."

    I don't know about you Mitchell but CSIS's reputation has long gone down the toilet ever since what they did to Maher Arar and Omar Khadr came to light.

  • Scott M.

    Even if it is true, which I highly doubt, is adultery is a torture-worthy offence? If not, why do you care so much?

  • Dakota

    No, adultery isn't a torture worthy offence, and neither is polygamy. But it does reflect on the man's character.

    • Scott M.

      Why are you choosing to focus on that then?

      • Dakota

        I was curious as to why there has been almost no mention of the fact that he had a wife in Canada while marrying another in Sudan. That seems like a bit of a story to me.

        • Scott M.

          He's not a politician asking for your vote. He's a very, very unfortunate citizen who was tortured overseas with the Canadian government at least partly to blame.

          Chances are there's nothing wrong here, other than the media making a tangential mistake in an article. Even if someone *has* done something wrong in the past (let's say a drunk driving conviction), it's irrelevant when it comes to our government being complicit in the torture of one of our citizens.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

          The story here would be the treatment of this Canadian by the Sudanese with the aid of CSIS. The despicable conduct of our government that had to be forced to allow him to return.

    • dan in van

      What reflects on your character is something beneath most of us coming out and saying. Keep up with the despicable hatchet-cover job, Mr CON.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SophiaGeffros SophiaGeffros

    It disgusts me that CSIS is, in name, at least, working for all of us.
    I didn't think it was possible for my faith in our national institutions to degrade any more than it already has.

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