UPDATED: Reno 911: Hold that tax credit!

by kadyomalley on Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:54pm - 106 Comments

UPDATED: Reno 911: Hold that tax credit! Okay, I admit it —  I just really wanted an excuse to use that headline.

From CBC:

Prime Minister Stephen Harper urged Canadians on Wednesday to take advantage of the home renovation tax credit, even though the credit hasn’t actually been approved by Parliament.

The 15 per cent credit is the subject of a massive advertising campaign and is designed to be part of the government’s economic stimulus package. It could see eligible applicants receiving as much as a $1,300 refund on their taxes if they invest up to $10,000 on improving their homes between Jan. 27, 2009, and Feb. 1, 2010.

The prime minister visited an Ottawa home improvement centre on Wednesday to press the message that Canadians have just six months left to take advantage of the credit, which he said is “a way that every family can participate in our economic recovery.

“There has never been a better time to renovate your home,” Harper said.

The Finance Department intends to introduce the HRTC as a bill later this year.

But a number of things might happen this fall that could derail that plan, such as opposition parties defeating the minority Conservative government and triggering an election, said Keith Brownsey, a political scientist at Calgary’s Mount Royal College.

Brownsey said he feels the credit will be approved, noting that other budget measures have been dealt with in a similar fashion in the past. But he said he thinks the timing of the HRTC is pure politics.

“For me, it’s telling me there’s a election coming up, that the government wants to give a gift to those who renovate their homes and do it quickly,” he told CBC News.

Elaine Foulon, who was looking to buy an area rug from a Calgary flooring store, said she was shocked when she was told the HRTC is not a done deal.

“I don’t understand why it hasn’t passed because they have been talking about this for quite a long time,” she told CBC News.

David Matley, the owner of the store, was so sure the credit is in place, he offered to match it for his customers. Matley said he will live up to his pledge and wants the government to do the same.

He added he doesn’t appreciate the fact the Harper government is spending taxpayer money on ads promoting the credit while he has to tell his customers there’s still a chance it won’t be there for them.

Now, call ITQ crazy — really, do it; it won’t even be the ninth worst thing she’s been called today — but isn’t there actually a House of Commons rule about spending public money to promote legislation that hasn’t yet been passed as though it’s a done deal, since it’s sort of abrogate-y of the role of Parliament? Didn’t the Mulroney government have its knuckles rapped by the Speaker for doing pretty much exactly the same thing by running ads before the GST had actually gone through? Or is ITQ hallucinating again? (It’s been a long day, so that’s a distinct possibility.)

UPDATE: The perennially helpful Mike Storeshaw over at Finance, who, ITQ is obliged to note, did once mock her in his Hill Climbers columnette, but who has subsequently been forgiven because she eventually forgot about it, sends along the following clarification:

To be clear, the Home Renovation Tax Credit does have parliamentary approval, via the passage of a Ways and Means motion that accompanied the Budget.  It is fairly commonplace for tax measures like this to proceed this way, allowing the Canada Revenue Agency to begin administering the change immediately upon passage of Ways and Means, and having it fully legislated by amending the Income Tax Act at a later date. Notice of ways and means was in the Budget document starting on page 335, or you can find it here.

In a subsequent conversation with ITQ by phone, he confirmed that if the as-yet-not-officially-introduced measure were to be explicitly defeated by the House, that would, in fact, render the promise of a tax credit null and void; it’s not actually clear what would happen if there was an election between now and next April, when it would – in theory – be claimed by those filing their 2009 tax returns. Presumably, if the Conservatives were returned to power, they’d just go ahead with introducing the legislation as planned; if another party formed government, it’s not clear whether they would have to explicitly cancel the credit, or whether the claims would be processed even without formal legislation to enshrine the program.

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  • Bridget

    I don't know of those rules but a on a (semi- interesting pretty well off – topic) note, I did the voice over for that animated commercial for the GST when it was introduced. I felt a little like a traitor promoting it but hey – it helped me pay for some of my university expenses that year!

  • Paul Wells

    Shouldn’t take more than a day of sabre-rattling about how The Liberals Want To Take Your Tax Credit Away to make Ignatieff back away from (yet another) election in the fall. It’s lame….but it works. Every. Time.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

      Oh, why stop there? Why, I heard from a source just minutes ago that the Liberals are planning to send out wrecking crews to dismantle all renovations undertaken within the last year. They're just that awful, people.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

        Is it true that the Liberals trying to form a demolition government with the Separatists?

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

        Is it true that the Liberals are trying to form a demolition government with the Separatists?

      • scf

        Don't worry Kady, the Liberals will win an election again, someday.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

          Okay, that's it. This thread is officially designated a For The Love Of God, Stop Being Such An Unlikeable Jerk zone. Talk about home renovation tax credits, argue about parliamentary precedent, make jokes about Michael Ignatieff and/or Stephen Harper, try to predict what tomorrow's Ekos numbers will be, but please, if you would — no cheap shots at your humble, and very tired, hostess. She's had a long day, and she deserves one thread wherein she's not on the defensive. Thanks. berried, bien sur.
          From: IntenseDebate Notifications

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

      Your lack of respect for the forthcoming panel to study home construction trends in 21st century Canada is appalling.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

        Tie a blue ribbon 'round the old committee table
        It's been three long months
        Do you still want me?
        If I don't see a blue ribbon round the old committee table
        I'll stay on the bus
        Forget about us
        Put the blame on me
        If I don't see a blue ribbon round the old committee table

  • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

    Sometimes the greatest testament to a successful government are the trivialities the regime's opponents are forced to flog,

    in the absence of real, important complaints.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/DerekPearce DerekPearce

      Unless the credit isn't passed, in which the government's ads would have actively mislead people. That's a real complaint.

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/DerekPearce DerekPearce

      Unless the credit isn't passed, in which case the government's ads would have actively mislead people. That's a real complaint.

      • MJ Patchouli

        Yes the question is should they be spending our money to advertise a program to us that may not come to fruition. Or really, should they use our money to advertise programs to us at all? Here in SK, all you see during the suppertime newscast are ads from our telco crown, and ads from the federal government. I wish costs were attached to those ads, clearly and visibly, so that viewers (taxpayers) realized how much it costs every time they are run — over and over and over.

    • NoName

      Right, Biff. Wondering if the government is preempting Parliament is such a trivial matter. It's not like the law is relevant, anyway. Heck, we can do away with our own laws whenever we want, just like we did with the fixed election date law ! In fact, Parliament itself is a trivial matter, is it not? Why don't we just do away with the whole voting thing so that we can run things more efficiently.

      You like this government, and that's fine. That's your right. But get some intelligent talking points, would ya?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

    In all seriousness, how was this not part of the budget/stimulus plan? Is there any particular reason why something like this would be legislated separately?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      I'm curious about this, too. Does anyone know why the HRTC bill wasn't introduced this spring?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

        To prevent a fall election?

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

        To prevent a fall election, as Mr. Wells suggests below?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

          Could be! It's an interesting suggestion. But they're not that clever, are they? Also, when Parliament re-opens, HRTC could always be passed in an emergency vote, if an election seemed imminent. It's in the best interests of both parties to see this bill through.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            "HRTC could always be passed in an emergency vote"

            I'd hope so, but given the CPC's rather, uh, Machiavellian approach to Parliamentary procedure (e.g. re: the Senate back in February), I wouldn't put it past them to delay passing such legislation while saying that an election would nullify the HRTC, thus allowing them to paint election-eager Liberals as anti-HRTC. "Iggy wants to steal your new deck!" etc.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            That would be a dangerous game to play. It's possible that the Tories have buried that card in the deck somewhere (as a deterrence to future "report card" brinksmanship), but who really knows? Personally, I don't think the government is likely to lose a confidence vote before HRTC is passed, so the whole issue is probably moot.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            I agree: I don't buy this fall election buzz at all. Why would either the Bloc, for example, want a fall election? Their only discernible election plan seems to be to not fight an election which some of them will lose; they have no real interest in increasing their seat-count, and anyway the best they could do would be to pick up one or two seats around Quebec City. They're at high tide already. Which is not great news, IMHO, since it means the current deadlock and inefficiency will continue for the foreseeable future; not that an election would alter that, in all likelihood. It's grim.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            I agree: I don't buy this fall election buzz at all. Why would the Bloc, for example, want a fall election? Their only discernible election plan seems to be to not fight an election which some of them will lose; they have no real interest in increasing their seat-count, and anyway the best they could do would be to pick up one or two seats around Quebec City. They're at high tide already. Which is not great news, IMHO, since it means the current deadlock and inefficiency will continue for the foreseeable future; not that an election would alter that, in all likelihood. It's grim.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            The Bloc have really thrown a wrench into the gears, I agree. It's hard to imagine that they would prop up the government by abstaining if Iggy decided to pull the plug, but stranger things have happened. I think the Bloc will eventually be reduced to fewer than 20 seats, but it will take a few election cycles and lots of luck to whittle them down to that level. Hopefully Duceppe will retire soon, and the new leader will sink the party with some Boisclair-style buffoonery.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            That Gilles can be quite Duceppetive.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            LOL, that's classic!

          • uncool

            Duceppe is probably the most adept strategist in parliament. He holds the balance of power, but never openly wields it. Consider the last confidence vote. He knew he could kybosh (sp? i never know) the measure either way himself. But instead he kept his mouth shut and waited to have Iggy make the first move.
            The bloc has the luxury of an ideology which need not plant itself left or right, nor even oppose. I think they have the most Machiavellian party, if you could crown a party as such. Say what you want about the Tories, but the Bloc knows how to play the game (how else do you think they till manage to get more than 40 seats consistently?)

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            Perhaps we should call them the Block.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    For the HRTC to be effective as a stimulus measure, it needed to be promoted ASAP. There wouldn't be much point in waiting until it was formally approved by Parliament this fall before promoting it. I assume that Iggy supports the tax credit, which has been one of the most successful stimulus initiatives to date.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

      Not disagreeing per se, but what is your evidence to make the claim as "one of the most successful stimulus initiatives to date" and also, would you define it as successful?

      For me personally, taxpayers will have the pleasure of providing me with $1,350 that the government otherwise would have kept because I would have spent the money anyway. Thanks for that.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

        The evidence is mostly anecdotal at this point, but everyone seems to agree that the tax credit is working. Wells had a good HRTC post last week.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

          Yes, nothing helps the economy better than everyone building a deck. Oops, did I say the economy? I meant Home Depot.

  • jarrid

    We had an election 9 months ago. Why again do we need another election? That was the 3rd election in the last 5 and half years.

    The Liberals support the thrust of the Conservative agenda, including mandatory sentencing. Canada is whethering the worldwide recession better than all the othe G8 countries.

    The LIberals still can't answer the question put to then Liberal leader in the 2008 election campaign:

    "CTV: Mr. [Ignatieff], the economy is now the issue [of the day], and on that issue you've said that today that Harper has done nothing to put Canadians' mind at ease and offers no vision for the country. You have to act now, you say; doing nothing is not an option. If you were prime minister now, what would you have done about the economy and this crisis that Mr. Harper has not done."

    The Liberals still don't know how to answer that question,. Why waste our time with another election.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

      Because the Liberals have come out with a new leader for us to reject.

    • jarrid

      Correction – the October 2008 election was the 3rd election in the last FOUR and a half years. Having another election this fall to fulfill the Liberal Party of Canada's lust for power would be the 4th election in 5 and a half years.

      The left/lib media want the Liberals back in power but, goodness gracious, these repeated elections are getting kind of ridiculous. If the Liberals were in power they'd be making that point. But with the Conservatives in power the Left/Lib media types want an election at the first possible opportunity.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

        Agreed.

        Canada needs to have a referendum on whether, or not, it wants to keep having elections. It will provide an interesting contrast within the magazines that cover millions of Iranians demanding that their political voices be heard, next to millions of Canadians demanding that theirs not be listened to.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

          Disenchanted by the dysfunction of their democracy, Canadians keep democractically electing politicians and giving them mandates to revoke their democratic rights, which they never do, because democracies don't work. Of course, if the democratically elected government ever did put an end to democracy, as Canadians want, it would be an example of democracy working, and Canadians would want it again, but they'd have lost it, because it worked. Then, Canadians would need a revolution to regain their democracy so that their government can get back to work not getting any work done.

          And Yossarian is still in Sweden.

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

          Disenchanted by the dysfunction of their democracy, Canadians keep democractically electing politicians and giving them mandates to revoke their democratic rights, which they never do, because democracies don't work. Of course, if the democratically elected government ever did put an end to democracy, as Canadians want, it would be an example of democracy working, and Canadians would favour it again, but they'd have lost it, because it worked. Then, Canadians would need a revolution to regain their democracy so that their government can get back to work not getting any work done.

          And Yossarian is still in Sweden.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/BCerInToronto BCerInToronto

      Why did we need that last election that Harper called, breaking his own fixed election legislation? No credible reason, but in the end the public didn't really care. And I doubt they'd care a whole lot if we had one this fall too. They'd be annoyed, sure, as they always are, but for most Canadians life goes on.

      • jarrid

        Actually, when you think about it, the Liberals have been resisting going to the polls since 2005 when Paul Martin went live on TV primetime, not to inform Canadians of an important and grave matter, but to plead for his political skin when it looked like the opposition was set to topple him. They then squawked that an election late that year would spoil their holidays. Then when they lost power in early 2006 they almost immediately started talking election but Dion never screwed up the courage to topple the government. When the Conservative government, after leading one of the longest, if not the longest running minority government, went to the polls, the Liberals squawked again, as BCer in Toronto now reminds us. The Liberals install another leader and he starts the same routine. We need an eleciton, we need an election and then he turns tail when the chips are down. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/BCerInToronto BCerInToronto

          It has nothing to do with any one party, jarrid, and everything to do with politics.

          The Liberals want an election when the timing is right and they're likely to win. And the Conservatives want an election when the timing is right and they're likely to win.

          The Liberals have yet to have satisfied themselves on those conditions. The Conservatives, last fall did.

          It's as simple as that. You can argue the Liberals should have been satisfied at multiple points the last few years — I've argued that — but then you'd be creating a new argument to deflect from your original one, which I countered and you haven't re-countered: people will be annoyed if an election is forced this fall, to which I replied that didn't stop Harper last fall.

  • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

    Both sides will make allegations about the other in a lead up to an election.

    The singular reason why the Liberals will not try to bring down Harper is because they don't think they can win. If they thought they could win they would pull the pin. They can't so they won't waste their money trying.

    The reason they likely cannot win has precious little to do with this election ad or that, or the scandal du jour that the media hypes, but rather has everything to do with issues of importance to Canadians, like say, our economic well being.

    Jarrid makes the statement above that Canada has fared far better than others in this worldwide economic downturn. That's not some political fantasy. That's the truth. And that makes all the difference in the world.

    Notwithstanding the media telling us that what's really important in our lives is whether Harper put a communion wafer in his pocket.

    • wilson

      Cover Wafergate and the 1.3 minute tardiness for a photo op
      OR Prime Minister Harper's G8 success….it was a tough choice for the media to make biff, cut them some slack, eh.

  • jarrid

    OT, but noteworthy – Charles Adler nails it in a column linked to on National Newswatch and the whole thing is worth reading. It's about this wafer-gate nonsense. He calls it a national joke. Here's one quote from his column:

    "We have some media people in this country who target the Prime Minister."

    He's dead right on that. The Canadian media is knee-deep in left/lib bias and they're outraged that Stephen Harper is Prime MInister and they will spend their every waking hour dredging up or making up nonsensical stories to paint him in a bad light. The CBC embarrassed itself, (it that's even possible since they're shameless), with their wafergate coverage. They are a joke.

    • BCer in Mtl

      Adler . . . yeah I go to him all the time for serious commentary. Him and Lowell Green.

      Like I go to Limbaugh for the same with respect to US issues.

    • Loraine Lamontagne

      We know we have had media people in this country behaving unethically towards the leader of the liberal party during the last election. One was rewarded with a senate seat for doing so.

      • jarrid

        Many Canadians concluded after watching the ATV video of Dion that he had no idea what he would do about the Stock Market crisis that he had been attacking Harper about non-stop during the campaign. His failure to answer the very question he had been attacking the PM on showed that Emperor Dion had no clothes. Honestly Lorraine, ATV did Canadians a public service by airing that interview. They really did.

        Could you imagine what our economy would be like if we implemented the Kyoto Protocol and the Green Shift? I shudder thinkingn about it.

        • Loraine Lamontagne

          Dion would not have implemented the Kyoto Protocol and the Green Shift no more than Chrétien axed the GST.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/BCerInToronto BCerInToronto

      And what's Charles Adler's bias? He works for some kind of media organization, doesn't he? Come on, really.

      And complaining about people picking on Stephen Harper? Really? Did he add It's not Fair!! Leave Stephen alone!!! Considering the demonization campaigns that the Harper Party has launched against both Dion and Ignatieff, that's laughable to the point of absurdity.

      • wilson

        And the Liberals hands are clean, right……never ever would they demonize Stephen Harper, Preston Manning, Stockwell Day, the Reform Party, the Canadian Alliance.

        The LPC doesn't have a clue what to do with a united right nor what to do about the truth ads.
        Something Chretien never had to worry about.
        In desperation, they ALL signed on with the Coalition of Losers, 8 days later they ALL changed their minds and then their leader…..

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

      ""We have some media people in this country who target the Prime Minister." "

      Wow, is that ever insightful. Actually, that's the media's job! It would be the same if there were a PM from a different party. Honestly, jarrid, you seem to think the media should just shut up and lick the Government's boots.

  • knick

    "…isn’t there actually a House of Commons rule about spending public money to promote legislation that hasn’t yet been passed as though it’s a done deal, since it’s sort of abrogate-y of the role of Parliament?"

    Guess Harper is just skipping that step in the best interest of voters who don't bother to keep up to date on what he's up to.

  • Ken S from Ramara

    Luv to see a fall campaign kill the Reno credit. I spend $8000 last summer on the homestead, therefore ineligible for any tax savings.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

      Do your part! Spend 8,000 more! Borrow it if you have to! Do your part to save Canada by going deeper into debt.

      STIMULATE ALREADY!!!

    • wilson

      Consider the alternative, you could have been paying a carbon tax on top of that $8k.

  • Stephanie

    I was talking to a friend about this, and he said that he had seen a commercial for the HRTC a few weeks ago, and it had a "pending legislative approval" disclaimer. At the time, he thought the HRTC had already been passed since it was in the budget, and the disclaimer was still in there because the ads had been produced prior to legislative approval. Since we now know that's not the case, then at least when it comes to television advertising, the Conservatives aren't presenting the HRTC as a done deal.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

      "pending legislative approval"

      That would make it campaign advertising.

      • BCer in Mtl

        Was that the same size of the disclaimer used on the ads in the In 'n' Out Burger scheme?

  • catherine

    I'm surprised to hear that the Conservatives have not introduced any legislation for this tax credit, after seeing it promoted by both the government and businesses. I think this would come as a surprise to a lot of people and could make a good election issue for the Liberals if Harper insists on playing such games.

    Harper can accuse Ignatieff of planning to take it away and Ignatieff can turn it back on Harper for playing games and deceiving people about a government program. One could ask why Harper didn't just put forward a bill earlier as he has been saying for quite a while that this is a popular program.

    • jarrid

      Playing games. That pretty well describes the LIberal Party's efforts since being turfed out of office in January 2006. There has been no serious effort at policy renewal, and to the extent there has been, i.e., the Green Shift, Kyoto etc. they've been shown to be divorced from economic reality. Seriously, I'd expect the Green Shift or the insistence on wreaking our economy by meeting the Kyoto protocol as emanting from the non-serious NDP or Green Party.

      • catherine

        The topic at hand is the reno tax credit, but since you bring up carbon pricing ….

        If you are interested in sound fiscal policy surrounding climate change, you can learn a lot from the US Congressional Budget Office which has issued multiple, detailed documents on this topic over the past decade. They have shown that a revenue neutral carbon tax is the most efficient to reduce GHG emissions. However, understanding the political liability of the simplicity and transparency of carbon taxes, they have also discussed cap and trade models meant to mimic carbon taxes as closely as possible. It is not as efficient as carbon taxes would be, but that does seem to be the way both the US and Canada will go. Even Harper says so.

        I have always supported both cap and trade and carbon taxes, with a preference for the latter because of their simplicity, transparency, comprehensiveness and efficiency. Given the current state of Canadian media, the Conservatives tactics and resources at their disposal, I consider a carbon tax to be an unrealistic goal at this time.

        • jarrid

          I think we all know that the green hystrionics are now thankfully behind us. We have an economy to save. The planet, contrary to what Elizabeth May and the Liberals assert, isn't warming, and hasn't been warming since 1998. India, for example recently rejected the junk science behind the global warming hysteria. Could someone please tell me that the Liberals have abandonned this Green Shift nonsense. I was hoping they'd come around to Harper's more sensible and prudent view of the matter.

          • catherine

            You must have missed it. Harper is now lining up behind Obama on this issue to participate in a cap and trade, designed to mimic a carbon tax, and says climate change is an important issue to address. The hope for people like yourself is that Harper's words don't mean much.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    Harper will likely blame the senate! I am surprised that the government can spend money on a fiscal initiative that has not been approved by parliament. Seems odd to me.

    • jarrid

      What do LIberal partisans like Ms. Lamontagne have against the renovation tax credit? Sheesh, can't we all agree it's a good program that encourages economic activity at a time when it is badly needed?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/DaveFromToronto DaveFromToronto

        If it's a good economic program, why haven't the Conservatives actually implemented it? Why are they launching an intensive ad campaign supporting it, even though it does not officially exist yet?

      • NoName

        Actually, I initially thought it was a good program, too. Until I realized that the market adapts fast: many home reno companies use it in their quotes and, surprise, now refuse to negotiate the price of their goods and services. In other words, the consumer ends up paying the same price as before (a tax rebate is no different than a negotiated price reduction except that it takes longer), the companies pocket more profit (they sell at the full "retail" price of labour and goods) and the taxpayers are paying the difference.

        Not such a great program after all, in my eyes…

  • Hanging Out

    This hyperpartisan sparring is really boring.

    So are constant attacks on every journalist and media outlet in the country being lib-left MSM, blah, blah. This imported meme is itself incredibly boring.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    Kady, this is completely offtopic, but Google News pointed me to this article from BCL's favourite website (LifeSiteNews) that suggests that Warren Kinsella posted the wafer video before the Telegraph-Journal broke the story, and yesterday attempted to cover up this fact by altering the timestamps on his blog. The LSN folks are probably rank amateurs, so it's possible that they made some stupid error, but I thought you might be interested. Could be blogworthy!

    <a href="http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jul/09072907…” target=”_blank”>http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jul/09072907...

    • Loraine Lamontagne

      I watched it live and noticed that Harper had put his hand out to receive communion. I am old. I go to church. I found it odd the moment I saw it as it reminded me that he was not catholic. I guess you will include me and everyone who watched it live as a conspirator.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

        I'm not including anyone as a "conspirator", Loraine. I just passed the link on to Kady because I thought she might be interested. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not one of the commenters who was hounding Kady about pursuing this story (or lack thereof).

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

    "Prime Minister Stephen Harper urged Canadians on Wednesday to take advantage of the home renovation tax credit, even though the credit hasn’t actually been approved by Parliament."

    Apparently this is how we roll in North America now. The Americans voted to enact their cap/trade bill before the final version was even written, never mind reading the thing.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

    The money that's being spent on advertising should be charged directly to the CPC.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    I’ll tell you why, Jarrid – first I’ll quote from the CBC article referred hereto:

    The program "could see eligible applicants receiving as much as a $1,300 refund on their taxes if they invest up to $10,000 on improving their homes between Jan. 27, 2009, and Feb. 1, 2010”

    Even the CBC reporter cannot make the difference between a $1,300 REFUND – and a $1,300 NON-REIMBURSALE TAX CREDIT. But again, maybe you don’t know the difference either. That’s what I don’t like. Mr. Harper purposely deceives Canadians – with a fixed elections date law that is a nullity, with advertising on a program that does not exist, etc. …

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

      Lorraine please elaborate on why this matters.

      • Loraine Lamontagne

        TTZ – A tax refund : for example, political donations are refunded – if you give $200, you are refunded $150 (provided you pay income tax).

        A non-reimbursable tax credit is an amount that you can shelter from the taxman. On a non-reimbursable tax credit of $1,300, taxpayers who pay 30% tax will have a benefit of roughly $400 for their $10,000 renovation project. Newspaper articles such as the one from the CBC confuse the issue. I even had a salesman at Rona tell me that Mr. Harper would send me a $1,300 cheque in the mail if I made renovations woth $10,000. In fact, most Canadians would roughly get a $400 benefit on a $10,000 reno project. I just don't like to see people being misled. I would much prefer an income tax cut. And you can call that a liberal view if you wish.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

          Are you certain? If so, I agree we have been spun, and it has not been properly reported on. However, the way I have read it (and I'm not an accountant or a lawyer thank God) is that it means the government won't give you one if you don't pay any tax.

          • Loraine Lamontagne

            YYZ:
            PART ONE:
            This from the government website:

            Non-refundable tax credit
            As with all non-refundable tax credits, the HRTC reduces your federal income tax. If, however, the total of your non-refundable tax credits is more than your federal income tax, you will not receive a refund for the difference.
            http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/sgmnts/hmwnr/h…

            Non-refundable tax credits are used to reduce your taxable income. For example, if your wife is a stay-at-home mom and has no earnings, you will be entitled to a non-refundable tax credit of $9,600. That doesn’t mean the government is sending you a $9,600 cheque. It means you shield that amount from the taxman. In the case of the non-refundable tax credit for home renovation, the credit is worth $1,300 to those who spend $10,000 in home renovations.

          • Loraine Lamontagne

            YYZ PART TWO

            Say a person earns (gross) $75,000 a year, puts a bit of money in an RRSP, claims the non-refundable credit for a dependent child, etc., and arrives at a taxable income of $60,000. This person would be paying income tax at (15% of $40,726 = $6,109.35 PLUS 22% on $19,274 = $4,240.28) so $10,349.63. If you add the non-refundable tax credit for home renovation lowering the taxable income ($60,000 – $1,300) to $58,700, you will be paying (15% on the first $40,727 = $6,109.35 PLUS 22% on $17,974 = $3,954.28) so $10,063,63. The benefit will therefore be $286 for a $10,000 investment in home renovation.

          • Marion

            A non-refundable tax credit does not lower your taxable income. It lowers the tax you pay.
            So in your example, on the income of 60,000.00 you have the tax of 10,349.00 – 1,300 (HRTC) – any other non-refundable credits from Schedule 1 (like the spousal amount, dependent children, education, transit passes, etc) resulting in 9,049.00 tax payable.
            So the benefit is 1350 if you had a 10,000.00 renovation (10,000.00 – 1,000.00 deductible) x 15%.

          • Loraine Lamontagne

            YYZ
            PART THREE

            I don’t think ‘we’ve been had’. Taxpayers, and journalists, should know the difference between a refundable (donations to political parties, for example) and a non-refundable tax credit. Maybe it’s because a lot of people use the services of accountants – even the tax software packages don’t help as they makes it too easy for you – you don’t have to make the calculations as was the case when most citizens would use the handwritten form. But politicians know the difference, and they mirror $1,300 in front of your eyes to blind you. I prefer straightforward income tax cuts.

            The faxt that I have had to cut my messge in three parts just shows you why newspapers and journalists don't bother explaining issues to readers.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

            I take your point but STILL it should be more clear on the government website.

            The description from the government website above is doublespeak. I've read it a couple of times and (perhaps because normally my taxes are simple and prepared by an accountant) I did not understand until now.

            Thanks for explaining.

  • Jenn

    Also, Jarrid et al, the Conservative government was ignoring the economic crisis at the time of the last election, if you'll recall. Only the coalition threat, the opposition parties' stand, got them to do anything at all. So nice taking credit for something they didn't do.

    Back to the Harper quote, "a way that every family can participate in our economic recovery."

    Huh? News to me. I thought you had to be a HOMEOWNER to take advantage of the tax credit. It's very telling of the ivory-tower-ness of Mr. Harper that he thinks every family owns a home. And yes, you can take advantage of non-refundable tax credits without owning a home, so that isn't the issue.

    • kathryn c

      Every family with $10K to spend in order to get $1,300 back – if you're paycheque to paycheque that's not just chump change. It seems like this is just another case of tax breaks going to those who really don't need them.

      And a nice opportunity for contractors to bump up their prices.

      • Loraine Lamontagne

        Again – confusion – this is what I don't like. The $1,300 non-reimbursable tax credit would give a benefit of about $400 to most taxpayers who spend $10,000 on home renovation projects. A non-reimbursable tax credit allows you to shelter $1,300 from the taxman. It is not a refund!

        • Marion

          No, if you read the information, it is a non-refundable tax credit of up to 1,350.00 (If you spent the 10,000.00) and you paid enough tax to recover it.

          If your total tax due is less than the total of your other credits, then there is no point in doing this.

          But you are right that they should be explaining this better. I'm afraid a lot of low income people will think it's good for them to do needed renovations now, and then they'll be disappointed at tax time…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

      If you don't have a home, you can get a job in home construction. Problem solved.

      • Jenn

        OMG! Not being a homeowner is not the same as not having a home. Not being a homeowner is not the same as not having a job. I really hope you were kidding.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

          For the nitpicking sentence police:

          If you don't OWN a home, you can still benefit from the home reno tax credit by getting yourself a job doing home renovations.

    • uncool

      Aside from the obvious benefit to people looking to make renovations (i re-did my bathroom, built a deck, and re-floored my living room), it's a boon to a lot of Canadian industries. You'll note we are a resource based economy. So lumber sales up, lumber mills work more, lumber mills hire people to cope with demand, these people in turn spend money, etc. etc. Same goes for quarries, and value added products down the supply chain too (think Lafarge, and even retailers like Rona, home depot, and Dave, the plumber down the street from you.)

      It caters to manufacturing located primarily in Canada and to construction, which by nature has to be in Canada. It's a somewhat candid method of promoting proctectionism. candid, but smart.

      • Jenn

        Hey, I'm not saying it isn't a good stimulus idea. I'm just saying that it doesn't benefit "every family" and shouldn't be sold as if it does.

        • uncool

          The ones that benefit "every family" are often the worst ones.

          For ample proof, see Alberta, circa 2005 with the 400$ cheques. To press the point on what happened:

          Liquor and tobacco sales went up, as did gambling revenues, and a little while later, a concomitant uptick in domestic violence reported as well. As a completely unrelated sidebar, iPod sales also shot up. The point isn't that people shouldn't be trusted with money (i think the universal child care benefit is great, for a slew of other reasons.)

          I would say this instead: government coffers are a necessarily finite resource. It makes sense then, that we should spend, or rather make use, of this money as efficiently as possible. The modus operandi here being maximum benefit, not universal benefit. This strikes a decent balance (though I will concede, the adverts are a little dishonest on the latter part)

          • jkg

            Good point. I just always find the that the downside of spending for maximum benefit is that such measures are largely temporary, especially if something like issuing cheques is a one time event. I suppose there could be a sustained mutliplier effect, but I always seem to think that over time it simply dissipates. Timing and target I think are important. Take for example, the stimulus cheques issued in the Summer of 2008 in the US. The monthly sales numbers and consumer spending changed only slightly, which would mean they were generally ineffective.

            The housing initiatives are good because whether or we believe or not, real estate is still a large cornerstone of our economy, so its effects will be positive.

  • Eva

    Just what we need: a tax credit to help people renovate their homes. Couldn't be anymore insensitive to people who can't even afford to BUY A HOME!!!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

      To be fair to the Conservatives, the point wasn't really to improve housing in Canada, so much as to find a reasonably quick vehicle to get people spending. The terms of the proposed credit are sufficiently broad that the money would flow in several sectors (retail, contractors, etc..). It also satisfies the conservative principle of citizens deciding where the money should go (unlike the billions poured in automakers, for example).

      I'm not saying I entirely endorse the scheme, but I don't think it's fair to judge it in terms of getting everybody a house.

    • Dakota

      So, if you can't afford to buy a home, how much tax are you paying anyway?

      • Jenn

        OMG again! Come on people, not being a homeowner doesn't mean you are tax-free. While I don't pretend to have $10,000 lying around even if I did have a house, I could certainly 'use up' the $1,300 in tax credits.

        • uncool

          You already do have a $1300 tax exemption, it's called "not having to pay property tax".

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

    RE the Update:

    Do tax reductions even NEED to be legislated?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

      Hopefully someone who knows for sure will answer, but I'm pretty sure that any adjustments to taxation need to be passed by the house. I don't know at what point fees and expenditures are simply at the discretion of the particular ministry or department, though.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

        oops. I think I just accidentally reported you.

        I dunno. I swear I remember reading somewhere the GST could have been rolled back by Order-in-Council.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

          Now you've done it, he'll be disappeared!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

            Whoever it was probably knew that going in.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

            Whoever it was probably knew that going in.

    • Marion

      Yes, they do.
      Income Tax is legislated by the Income Tax Act, which can only be changed through legislative amendments. If it isn't in the act, it doesn't exist in the eyes of Revenue Canada (although when I spoke with them a couple of months ago, they weren't aware that it wasn't in the Budget Implementation Act).

      The reason the Ministry of Finance gave a couple of months ago for tabling it in the fall was that it needs to be drafted very carefully to avoid grey areas.

  • Jo Hammond

    How does it benefit people like me whose husband died last year leaving the home in one hellava mess and no money? I don't pay any income tax, so can't get any relief on anything like insulation and roofing etc.

From Macleans