'I believe that all of us, even those who are atheists, seek God'

Author David Adams Richards on his deepest beliefs and his new book

by Brian Bethune on Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:00am - 128 Comments

'I believe that all of us, even those who are atheists, seek God'David Adams Richards hold a peculiar place in Canada’s literary pantheon. Going by honours and recognition, he’s an insider’s insider: a Giller prize and two Governor General’s Literary Awards. He’s one of only three writers to have won a Governor General’s award for both fiction and non-fiction. But in just about everything truly important he’s as outside the tent as can be, far more Faulkner than Atwood or Davies: the very particular regional setting (all in New Brunswick’s Miramichi valley), the biblical resonances, the avoidance of irony, the mordant fatalism and equally striking moments of transcendence, the muted questions of class resentment, the way in which questions of faith, morality, and unseen forces arise. So it’s no surprise (even if it is an act of bravery), to see him write an idiosyncratic book of personal faith, God Is (Doubleday). In it Richards charts his on and off relationship with the Catholicism of his childhood, his battles with alcohol, despair and black rage, the resentment he has always felt against those who mock the faith of others to bolster their own conventional pieties, the murderers and victims he has known, and the sheer number of miracles he’s seen. It’s not the easiest polemic to follow—it’s difficult, for one thing, to grasp what he thinks of religion as opposed to God—but it is fascinating reading, illuminating of his fiction. Richards insists that the presence of God cannot be denied, and that we all know it, though may will not admit it even to themselves. “I believe that all of us, even those who are atheists, seek God—or at the very least not one of us would be unhappy if God appeared and told us that the universe was actually His creation. Oh, we might put Him on trial for making it so hard, and get angry at Him, too, but we would be very happy that He is here. Well, He is.” Shortly before the publication of God Is, Richards had this email exchange with Maclean’s Senior Writer Brian Bethune:

Q: You’ve been thinking about this for a long time. In an interview in 2000 you mentioned the social pressures of the late sixties, how abandonment of traditional (and perhaps instinctive) concepts of faith and morality was not so much heartfelt as peer-pressured. What brought God Is into existence now?
A: I think that most of what I witnessed in the ’60s and ’70s was innocent and contrived—and I speak in the book to the contrived rebellion attained by some who believe they are thwarting convention by doing only what their peers do. This is troublesome to me, and a problem not just of the ’60s or ’70s.

Q: You open in a way that many born Christians, especially Catholics, will recognize: the question of am I in, or am I out (of my church/tradition), how do I answer that question? So you begin by distinguishing the social aspects of religion from faith, or would you say you are distinguishing religion from faith?
A:
Yes religion and faith are quite different, but religion does form the foundation of faith. But if we see—and we do, at all times—problems in religion, one might not necessarily equate this with faith in what the religion proclaims. It is a tricky subject and hard to separate—but just because governments continually fail does not make us give up on governments.

Q: That’s the essential question that kept coming to my mind as I read your book. What do you mean by faith? The hope for the future, the belief in a good greater than ourselves that is held (as you point out) by absolutely everyone?  Or faith in God, or even in a particular religious tradition? Sometimes you seem to distinguish between religion, faith and God, other times to equate them, as when you write of “a secular trend today to keep faith as far away as possible.”
A:
Yes, a belief in a good much greater than ourselves that belongs with innocence, and comes from God. That is I suppose all we can know. But at least we can know that. People may say that is naive, but the puffery of certain people who easily dismiss this, is naive as well. I keep coming back to the problem—the same issues arise and the same mistakes are made by people who say they do not believe, who accuse people who do believe of hypocrisy and self-righteousness. If this is the case, then there has to be a more transcendent way to alleviate these signposts of what I chose to call sin. Now if I was writing a purely religious book I would speak of my own Catholic faith and maybe the Eucharist as being all important. But I am writing in a way a polemic about those who disclaim faith and religion as an answer for secular man, and make all the same “errors” in doing so.

Q: There is a class-based aspect profoundly important to your argument, no? You hate the casual dismissal of loved ones, of the way one was raised, of tradition, all thrown away for fast social acceptance? You know (and resent) the intelligentsia’s attitude that the less educated are less human, and the more religious are the more stupid. This goes along with the personal: you write with a strong sense of being an outsider in the world of writing, far out of the mainstream, particularly in this theistic regard, and mocked for it. How do you square that with your honours—have people mistaken your writing, were the prizes won by books that somehow did not live up to your true nature, were they insincerely given?
A:
This is a question that is hard to answer politely. Let me just say that I do not have to prove my credentials about literary integrity to anyone in the country. I am grateful for every award I have received, but those awards did not necessarily garner literary acceptance—nor do I seek it. How my work has been treated has been well-documented for the last 37 years and will probably be known in time.

Q: “Without faith nothing at all would ever happen.” Could you elaborate on that? It’s meaning is apparent in sense of faith in future, faith in things one loves and cares about, but not so transparent in faith-in-God sense.
A:
Well, it is all of that—but if we have faith it must sooner or later be faith in things beyond or outside ourselves. I think most of us would call this God. And too many incidents happen to us on a daily basis not to see this as something magnificent and transcendent. Now I will tell you that I am not at all a good candidate for sainthood but I have always believed this.

Q: The importance of violence, especially murder, the ultimate sin, in your thinking, even if it’s not always legally murder, but still a killing of some kind, of spirit or potential. Your experiences with that have allowed you to see more clearly what the insulated cannot?
A:
If you witness this kind of violence among friends and people you care for—I think it does make you realize the utter travesty of revenge and self-justification in that regard, and allows you to see how things are disobedient to a great spiritual law. But as I say there are many ways to commit murder, and none of us are really insulated from this.

Q: You maintain an awareness, a greater sense than most, of life not being under your control (the rolling car, meeting a woman in a mall, your children). That is a central argument for God’s being?
A: Yes it is—as I have said before none of us can say with certainty that the comfort we feel at this moment will last. If we cannot say that for certainty there is little we can say for certainty—except that we certainly do not control our own destinies as much as we sometimes think.

Q: We all act like there is a God, or at least a supernatural order, we would not be who we are otherwise: as when you apologized to the shade of your dog, and you asked yourself to whom you were addressing the sorrow, who do we think directs the wonderful and terrible things that happen to us? Would you agree that you’re saying the questions compel the answer? We haven’t simply made this all up to cope with a brutally indifferent universe.
A:
There is a great novel called Master and Margarita by Bulgakov where the world without God is terror—that terror is the way of the world and in essence proves not only God, but the need and longing for God. That is, we know by this terror that the struggle has to be upward, away from terror and toward God. Anyone who has seen the world of violence as I have I think knows this. And in many respects we have all seen this world, and all feel this.

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  • Susan

    It is the height of “hypocrisy and self-righteousness” to tell others what they believe. So many religious people's faith depends on believing atheists secretly have faith but won't admit it. This arrogance would be amusing if it didn't lead religious people to impose laws and public policies that force religion on everyone.

    An author shouldn’t have such a narrow view of human nature. Get out there and talk to some atheists about how they view reality.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

      Is it possible for any individual to speak of their faith without being subject to accusations like this? This is a perfect example of the petty mindedness that Richards speaks of in the interview.

      Richards is not proselytising here. It is the height of hypocrisy and self-righteousness to judge him in such a manner.

      • Susan

        So your believe that when Richards says he knows that I–an atheist–seek god, he is speaking about his own faith? The psychiatric term for this is projection.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

          Of course it is projection. We all project. We have to, to make sense of society, the people around us. He is not trying to convert you.

          • Susan

            The only reason he is not trying to convert me is he thinks I am already converted. His denial of my being who I am is worse than engaging me in a debate to try to convert me.

            Projection is a problem when you use it to ignore individuality and fail to understand your fellow human beings. That's exactly what he's doing.

            I am an atheist. I don't believe in god, and I don't seek god. Do you also believe, as Richards does, that I seek god? If yes, why?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            I can't speak for Ed or Richards, but my understanding of the argument is that when a theist says that you, as an atheist, seek God, the idea is that you and the theist have different ideas of what "God" means; different languages, as it were. To take a frivolous example, if I have a birthday party and a francophone tells me I'm celebrating my anniversaire, it's not that he's wrong or I'm right (because I'm actually celebrating my birthday) but that we are using different terms to describe the same phenomena. Which is not to say that your atheist position is necessarily the same as Richards' theist position, but I wouldn't say their inherently incompatible just because you might express one view in non-theist terms and he might express a very similar view in theist terms.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            I can't speak for Ed or Richards, but my understanding of the argument is that when a theist says that you, as an atheist, seek God, the idea is that you and the theist have different ideas of what "God" means; different languages, as it were. To take a frivolous example, if I have a birthday party and a francophone tells me I'm celebrating my anniversaire, it's not that he's wrong or I'm right (because I'm actually celebrating my birthday) but that we are using different terms to describe the same phenomena. Which is not to say that your atheist position is necessarily the same as Richards' theist position, but only that they're not inherently incompatible just because you might express one view in non-theist terms and he might express a very similar view in theist terms. In other words, what matters is what you and he are saying, not what system you are using to say it.

          • Susan

            I disagree. Your example of two languages to express the same concept "birthday," would be analogous only if one of the parties didn't believe people were born and could have birthdays. We have all sorts of words for concepts that don't exist: Santa Claus, boogieman, a flat earth, geocentrism, etc.

            The god concept is not innate in all people. There actually are people who were born without it–I am one. I do, however, believe there are people who believe in god. I am not stubborn nor too self-absorbed to ignore the evidence for their belief.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            I take your point, but how is one to define God? If the word refers to a personal deity, as much a personality as you or I, then I can see how there's flat-out disagreement; but if "God" is defined by some mystical definition like "A circle whose centre is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere" (Timaeus of Locri, 400 BC) then I do think it comes down to language. You can't, after all, deny the existence of an abstract definition, you can only evaluate it to see if it a) is logically consistent and b) corresponds on some level to reality and experience. From that point of view, the very concepts of belief and disbelief are beside the point.

          • Susan

            Yes, it is very true that definitions are important. But we aren't talking about abstract concepts that don't affect us. Does the abstract concept that is everywhere (god or circle or devil or boogieman) give me morality or give my life meaning? If that is part of the definition of "god," then no I don't have, seek, or know god.

            Richards' problem is not one of definition. His problem is with playing God and claiming to know other people's minds. My very existence precludes his argument. He can, of course, live in a bubble-world failing to understand what motivates his fellow humans. But when he publicizes his confusion, it is important to set him and any would-be's straight.

            If we don't sent them straight, we get "in God we trust" on our money and "under God" in our patriotic pledges. And in my city a merge of all hospitals by the monolithic Catholic hospital that makes its physicians sign a pledge that they won't prescribe birth control. Luckily, the atheists in my city stopped that merger.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            I think that argument is rather circular. Take the conclusion that atheists and theists (for lack of better terms) both seek God but use different words. In the analogy you use, anniversaire and birthday, although different words, refer to the same thing conventionally: anniversaire and birthday are synonymous (in the Russell/Frege way of thinking) because they have the same reference.

            As such, in order to conclude that anniversaire and birthday mean the same thing, they must already mean the same thing. In the atheist/theist argument the question as to whether different terms do in fact refer to the same thing (this God or mystical thing) the existence of that thing must be assumed. The argument, therefore, does nothing to prove the existence of anything and provides little illumination into the way in which language is used.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            Indeed, but isn't the existence of God different from the existence of something in particular, given that many definitions of God involve the very nature of existence itself (e.g. a circle whose centre is everywhere)? It seems to me we are really talking about the existence of existence, in which case tautology is very much the order of the day.

            By the bye, I'd say that "birthday" and "anniversaire" may refer to the same thing, i.e. a particular birthday (party), but they don't mean the same thing: for one thing, they sound different, and they have different meanings etymologically (day of birth vs. changing-of-the-year). I don't think language, or theology, can be understood in strictly logical terms, given how meanings shift from one century to another and one speaker to another. Context counts for a lot, no?

          • Susan

            No. There is a basic definition for god or gods that is unaffected by context: 1) they are supernatural 2) they set our morality 3) we are supposed to be on their good side.

            Sure, you can nit-pick from there, but that's not my problem with Richards. I reject ALL definitions of gods mostly because of #1.

          • Former Atheist

            That is the theistic definition of god – which is the one the author supports – but clearly, he was not arguing that everyone seeks "his god".

            I won't summarize the canons of religious philosophy for you – but this is not the only conception of god.

            I know that this is the internet, and it seems to give everyone the desire to be an anonymous jerk, but Susan, be more humble, especially when discussing the issue of god.

            All definitions of god do not include your first condition, so your final statement is based on a false premise.

            Tip: Wikipedia "pantheism"

          • Susan

            Are you saying that pantheism is not supernatural? What exactly are you saying when you say god is within everything? What quality is meant by god that is in everything? Is it of this quality testable? Or is it an abstraction that ultimate means nothing? Id my ability to be a good person part of that rock over there? What does that mean? It doesn't seem like a very helpful thought. If you claim it exists but can't test it, it's supernatural.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            I don't know that those are necessary in a definition of God. Most people view God that way, I think; however, there are other definitions (such as Aristotle's in which God is really completely unconcerned with humanity and might not even know that it exists among others).

            For the record, I'm agnostic (leaning towards atheism) and I totally don't accept any of those three, but that's not the totality of what can be meant by the word "God".

          • Susan

            Do you think Aristotle's thought his God was mortal?

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            As I understand it, for Aristotle, the world (the universe, everything) is eternal with no beginning or end, and the same goes for God.

            Aristotle's understanding of God was as the unmoved mover, the thought that thinks itself. Very different than the God found in Judeo-Christian religions or most Eastern religions.

          • Susan

            Yes, Aristotle's god is supernatural. It fits within the definition I gave.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            Actually, as I said, according to Aristotle the universe is eternal, therefore, an eternal god is not supernatural at all as "supernatural" by definition means something outside of the scientific, or observable universe.For Aristotle, that universe is itself eternal and as such, a God that is eternal is entirely natural.

          • Former Atheist

            What em said.

            Also. The quality that is "in" everything is life/spirit…or god.

            I was saying that pantheism did not fit your ridiculous "definition of god".
            At first principle, your metaphysical presumption that we are all separate individual beings with no inherent interconnectedness, and with no ability to reach a higher degree of reality is equally unprovable.

            Why do people hold these metaphysical presumptions over others? The means in which they subjectively experience consciousness.

            For example, Many have experienced a sense of being "one" with their natural surroundings. This presumption, and the feeling of bliss that it brings occurs within the human brain. The human brain is within nature. Thus, the experience is natural. How it manifests itself neurologically has been shown – what causes it cannot be known for certain.

          • Susan

            No life form lives forever in the natural world.

            My "ridiculous" definition of god is the definition that everyone uses. If not, give me an example. Keep in mind that any "life/spirit" that never dies is a supernatural concept.

            You cannot prove that a flying spaghetti monster isn't our god. Just because you can't disprove something doesn't make it true. Geez, that's kind of a given in any argument. Are you really raising false negative as evidence that supports your view.

            A feeling of being "one" is not the same as being one. If so, we'd be agreeing with each other.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

            I had a flilt with pantheism at one time, so I understand the appeal.

            My problem came when I realised that if everything is devine, then nothing really is, or it debases the word devine untill it is meaningless.

            Concepts such as respect for the universe (or oneness with it) do not require God.

            I think this author would have been better to argue something like "It is human nature to seek spirituality'.
            Less offensive to us "current" athiests anyway.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/janicemaerose janicemaerose

            AJR79 I agree with your point that it is human nature to seek spirituality. ____I am spiritual, but do not believe in a God. I do believe with one comment by Former Atheist above, that I feel "one" with nature. Perhaps this is a function of my brain(?). I think we have so much in common with other living organisms that we feel comfort in our commonalities

          • Susan

            Are you saying Aristotle thought god was not sentient?

            I've never heard that before.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            Quite the opposite, Aristotle's God is to roughly paraphrase 'the thought thinking itself'. It is the unmoved mover, the causeless cause and it spends eternity contemplating the highest being (itself). There may even be more than one of these unmoved movers, and they are responsible for order in the universe because the universe imitates the order in them. Or something like that.

            At this point, it gets a little too into Aristotle's metaphysics for me to fully comprehend, much less explain.

            Especially considering that I don't necessarily agree with Aristotle (as I can barely understand him), only that he provides an example of a God which does not fit your original definition and is, nonetheless a God (the very God used by medieval theologians and philosophers).

          • Susan

            Aristotle's god fits perfectly into my definition #1. It is not of the natural world. Aristotle hypothesizes a supernatural entity. This god can contemplate, so it is alive ("I think, therefore I am" to mix philosophers). It created all. And it doesn't die. What is natural about any of that?

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            Actually, Aristotle's god is not a creator god. The universe (the natural world) is eternal and has no beginning and no end. It is not created. As such, if, as you say, Aristotle's god is supernatural then so is all matter and energy.

            As I said earlier, supernatural, by definition means to be outside the natural world. As such, whether or not something is supernatural depends entirely on what one considers the limits of the natural world.

            As for whether or not Aristotle's god is 'alive', I think that will depend on what is meant by alive. "I think therefore I am", employs the verb "to be" not "to live" and is therefore a "test" for existence not life. To Paraphrase Descartes more aptly would be to say "I think therefore I exist as a thinking thing, if nothing more".

            If existence makes something supernatural, then we are all supernatural. In fact, Aristotle's hypothesis came out of contemplation concerning being (that is, existence) which began, as all Aristotle's philosophy does, in empirical observation.

          • Susan

            Aristotle's god is outside the natural world. It thinks, yet it lives forever. "To be" means to exist which can mean living if the "being" can think. You can twist words all you want, but you can't give actual examples of something that thinks that does not live. If you can, then list some.

            What empirical observation is of a thinking thing that is not alive?

            The fact that you can't is what makes it supernatural. Our words reflect what we know about the world.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            Indeed "to be" can mean "to live" but in that all things which live are; however, not all things which are live. I think that within the notion of "living" is contained temporal ideas of birth and death which have no place in eternalness.

            To summarize:
            You have claimed that all definitions of God stipulate that God is supernatural, which I contend is too narrow a definition. I have provided an example (Aristotle's) of a world view and a definition of God in which God is not supernatural.

            According to Aristotle, nature is eternal. Therefore, an eternal God is entirely within the natural world, not over and above. If you wish to claim that Aristotle's God is supernatural by virtue of being eternal than, it seems, you must argue that the universe is not eternal. At first glance it appears that only in a temporally finite universe is an eternal god supernatural by virtue of being eternal.

            As I have said, in order to claim that something is indeed supernatural, it is necessary to first define the limits of what is natural.

          • Susan

            To summarize:
            You have not provided proof of a natural God.

            The only reason to have the word "supernatural" is to have a category to put god, and other unproven entities into. What is your definition of "supernatural"? of "natural"?

            I believe we define something as "natural" because we know it to exist.
            We know the universe exists = natural
            We don't know if it always has and always will = ?
            We know that thinking things are alive = natural
            We know that living things die = natural

            We have no proof of
            living things that don't die = supernatural
            thinking things that are not alive = supernatural

            There is a reason, Em, why they call it "faith." If they could prove the existence of god, they wouldn't have faith any more. They need their god to be supernatural.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            So does "wind" exist? Or does it require faith? It is not observable by us; it is not a particular thing (but rather the action of a particular thing); it does not die. According to you, it is not part of the natural world.

            Many theists would say that what the wind is to the air, God is to everything. It's a question of definitions.

          • Susan

            You can't observe wind? I can.
            Wind exists.
            Wind can't think.
            Wind is not alive.
            It fits the requirements of natural.

            The analogy between wind and god is wimpy. The characteristics they share are superficial and unimportant.

            The important differences are the ones they don't share.
            Wind is not everywhere.
            Wind is moving air.
            Wind didn't create with a purpose.
            Wind can be manipulated by man.
            Wind can kill you.
            Wind can die down and stop completely.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            So you're defining "God" as you see fit and then declaring that you don't believe in it. Someone comes along with a different definition and you tell them their definition is wrong. Who made you the friggin' final arbiter of definitions of God?

          • Susan

            I am defining God based on how other people define it.

            I am defining natural and supernatural the same way.

            I observing the world and am just reporting back to you what I see.

            If you see differently, give me an example. I am willing to change my understandings, but you first must give me evidence. You have not.

            The existence of wind is scientifically observable. God is not.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            Jesus Christ, do you think "wind" has an independence existence?

            This is like arguing with a two-year-old.

          • Susan

            no, I thought you thought it was rational to think wind was like god because you said that.

            Gee, I was placating you. Glad to know you aren't 2. But why were you pretending to be? Why support their beliefs?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            Sorry, the point being that, according to some definitions of God, neither wind nor God have an independent existence. As I said some posts above.

            I don't know what kind of traumatic Sunday School experience you had — I never went to Sunday School, am not baptised, etc. — by virtue of which you think there is a single, accepted definition of God complete with illustrations, but there simply isn't. There is a whole host of definitions that span the totality of human history. It is quite simply intelllectually mendacious to refute one and therefore think you've dismissed them all. You remind me of an American who's been to Paris and thinks all Europeans eat baguette every day.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            How skinny can these things get? Let's find out!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

            If you want to see wind hang a flag.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            Also, you can break wind, but you can't break God.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            To be clear: I am not attempting to prove the existence of a natural God. My aim was only to provide an example of A VIEW of God that was natural ( a view which I, for the record, do not accept) in order to demonstrate that your definition was too narrow.

            The word supernatural is means simply that which is not natural. I don't know what I believe natural is; however, identifying God as supernatural requires limitations be stipulated as to what constitutes 'natural'. Your argument appears circular, and in fact makes the same error that most arguments for the existence of God do.

            You say that God is supernatural because we don't know that it exists and then define supernatural as what we do not know exists.

            As for whether "they" (whomever they are) need God to be supernatural in order for it to be considered faith, it is important to remember that when materialism reaches a certain extreme, it too becomes a faith. As Berkley made so painfully clear, proving the existence of matter beyond a rational doubt is impossible.

            Personally, I tend to take a Russellian approach and note that the burden of proof is on the claimant (i.e. I don't have to prove God doesn't exist, you have to prove that it does). Nevertheless, just as when materialism becomes extreme, when atheism becomes militant, it becomes itself a religion, placed beyond rational argumentation.

          • Susan

            You can't provide a view or definition of something that contradicts its own definition–anything that contradicts its own definition is supernatural.

            You are confusing "religious faith" with faith based on observation. You know, I have faith in my husband's love because he acts on his love. "Religious faith" is the required leap that Lewis explained so well. Or I have no faith in the Nigerian prince who just sent me an urgent email request. Gee, it might be real….How do we decide where to place or faith? It's so funny that we can do it so easily in so many ways all day long, but when someone brings up god we drop all of the requirements we bring to everyday life. God is so special that we must stop thinking. Why? Why are you doing it? You seem rational.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            I am simply demanding of you the same rigorous application of reason which you demand of those who claim God exists.

            I have not been arguing that God exists. I am myself an agnostic/atheist I suppose my real point is that it is easy to dismiss notions of God when we focus on a very narrow definition. It is another thing entirely to provide rational argumentation against a comprehensive understanding of God.

            As for faith, you will find that most arguments for God's existence begin with observation and reason (Thomas Aquinas, Anselm, the watchmaker analogy etc.) They may take a false turn logically, but they nonetheless begin, as does Aristotle's argument, in reason and observation. As for your husband's love, because it is entirely subjective, one might argue that it is analogous to the mystical experience, which is well documented and scientifically demonstrable (in terms of brain activity). The mystics are sure that God exists and you are sure that your husband loves you. In fact, many mystics attempt to communicate their ineffable experience in terms of love.

            I am very rational and it is that rationality which forces to accept the limitations of rationality.

          • Susan

            My definition of god is not narrow at all. I only claim #1 as a requirement. That all gods have one shared characteristic; they are supernatural. You can disprove it is you can come up with a god that is not. If you could, science would have a branch called theology. It doesn’t. God is not natural. There is a branch of science that studies brain activity when people think of God.

            My faith in my husband’s love is based on his behavior. Hurricanes, natural selection, and eclipses were attributed to gods (and sometimes still are), but are now explained by science. There’s not much mysticism left. What we have is the awe and wonder that this Earth happened as it did—all things falling into place without a designer. I don’t see any limitations in rationality except to know there are things we don’t know. If you assign the answers to the world of the supernatural, probably shouldn’t call yourself an atheist.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            As I have been trying to explain, whether or not God is supernatural depends on your definition of natural. I provided a definition of natural and a theory of God in which God is not supernatural.

            Just for fun, I'll play this game: raeliens believe that humanity (along with the rest of nature) was created, via cloning, by aliens of supreme intelligence. The 'gods', that is, the highest power, of their religion are aliens. Most scientists believe it's highly unlikely that aliens DON'T exist. There are also neo-pagan movements which believe that God IS nature; however, lacking a clear definition of nature makes this whole conversation difficult.
            As for the mystical experience, you clearly misunderstand. It is, very roughly, the experience that all the universe is one, sometimes including the experiencer, sometimes not. According to William James it is ineffable, noetic, passive, and temporary. There are many other definitions and different branches of (gasp!) science and psychology involved in its study. They are, no doubt, less common today but nonetheless present.
            As I said before, your experience of your husbands love is subjective. You see him act in certain ways, and you interpret it as love. Likewise, religious folk see certain things happen in the world, experience certain feelings and interpret it as God.
            You claim that you see no limitations on rationality and then describe a limitation that you see. I do not attribute things to the supernatural, on the contrary, I am have very rational arguments against the existence of God, and the supernatural. I believe that we should follow logic as far as possible and that the most logical (if not the only) answer is that there exists no God. In fact, I've studied many authors, and many religions and I continue to collect evidence.

            Now, a faith in science, and the claim that science has all the answers as to what reality consists of, that is called scientism. And it too is a religion.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            Generally, I am of the opinion that context counts for almost everything. The fact that words come to mean different things over time is really of very little consequence. For the record, if birthday and anniversaire are understood to mean the same day then they would refer to the same thing. The different sounds are irrelevant (see and sea have identical sounds, but different meanings the reverse is just as possible). The etymological differences are more closely related to the illusive 'sense' of the word: what the individual understand. The thing that is out there (the day) would nonetheless be the same. I suppose, it would depend where you place the meaning.

            If, however, meaning is to be placed in the sense alone, then it is highly subjective, if we are trying to prove the existence of something. That the existence of God is different than the existence of other things further proves my argument: that the original argument from analogy is false.

            Again, your point is circular, in order that those definitions of God (which involve existence itself) have any sway in the argument about the existence of God those definitions must be assumed to be true. In other words, we must assume that God exists in order to prove that God exists.

            (p.s. A tautology, I think, is not a circular argument a tautology is a statement which is true in virtue of its form- for example A or not A)

            .

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            What does it mean to exist?

            Of course god (if "he" be something "out of/beyond" this word) does not exist, "to exist" meaning to be part of the physical world.

            If something of no physical properties – god – "exists", then everything that can possibly be imagined "exists".

            This is a stupid argument because it is built upon nonsensical premises.

            Obviously definitions must be established and shared by all interlocuters, or discussion will be impossible.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            What does it mean to exist?

            Of course god (if "he" be something "out of/beyond" this word) does not exist, if "to exist" means to be part of the physical world.

            If something of no physical properties – god – "exists", then everything that can possibly be imagined "exists".

            This is a stupid argument because it is built upon nonsensical premises.

            Obviously definitions must be established and shared by all interlocuters, or discussion will be impossible.

          • Susan

            Bravo. Existence is testable. All definitions of gods rely on not being able to test its existence. Therefore, god is supernatural.

            But it isn't a stupid argument. It's The Only argument that refutes god. Once you establish that god is supernatural, the world superstition is next.

            Religious people, enjoy yourselves and your belief. Please do not force them on the rest of us. When you do, you create New Atheists.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            The question "Does god exist?" is a stupid one because it is built on a self-negating premise.

            The legitimate question is "Is it logical for one to believe in god?"

            Personally, I think the answer is no.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

            As stirring as this debate is, I have to get ready for a vacation, Jack is covering most the ground I would, except that I add once again, that Richards is offering his conceptualization of theism. How you feel about it is irrelevant. He is only projecting in a manner to make sense of his theism, he is not judging other people's. Getting self-righteous about it, is to miss his whole message.

          • Susan

            His "concept" denies I exist as I know myself. If he keeps those judgments to himself, great. I can't complain. But if he writes a book about it, I get to express my thoughts on his foolish idea.

            If someone insisted that you were only pretending to be Ed Sweeney and that you were really only a plant, I wouldn't label any response you had as "self-righteous."

            Jack is not on your side.

            Have a great vacation. Take care.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

            There are 'sides' to this issue? You are either for, or against?

            Gotta go.

          • Susan

            yes, there are sides. You either believe in a supernatural god or you don't.

            Enjoy!

          • Read the Book

            Susan said "His "concept" denies I exist as I know myself. If he keeps those judgments to himself, great. I can't complain. But if he writes a book about it, I get to express my thoughts on his foolish idea. "

            If he writes a book about it, I suggest we all read it in order to judge the quality of the idea. Making sweeping judgments on the basis of an interview ABOUT the book is not the same as having read and tried to understand the book and its arguments.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

            I think most of the comments here are based on the interview, to be fair.

            But then, I'd really need to see your point expanded and published as a book before you could convince me. :)

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

            I think most of the comments here are based on the interview, to be fair.

            But then, I'd really need to see your point expanded and published as a book before you could convince me. :)

          • Susan

            The point of a book review is to find out if the book is worth your money–and more importantly your TIME. In the interview, the author makes a ridiculous statement that he knows what I don't know about myself.

            I should sue him for libel.

  • Emmett

    Agreed. This is the sort of pseudo-intellectualism that wins awards in the literary world.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

    "but if we have faith it must sooner or later be faith in things beyond or outside ourselves. I think most of us would call this God"

    Nothing like defining God out of existance as "things beyond or outside ourselves".

    I would rather take a look at defining faith as "things people believe without evidence, against reason"

    God is that funny feeling that you get in the pit of your being.
    Oh wait, that was indigestion.
    God is indigestion.

    Where's my award?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

    I don't know if it's the interview or the theologian, but I have to say I find such from-the-gut theology profoundly depressing. Sentimentality is the perfume of the Devil!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      If sentimentality is really the perfume of the devil, then Donald J. Hall Sr., chairman of the board and majority shareholder of Hallmark Cards, must be Beelzebub himself!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

        LOL, indeed, as one can verify oneself by playing various Hallmark inscriptions backward.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        Yep, him and whoever came up with the "Diamonds are forever" commercials.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

      Agreed. I'd be interested to read the book, but in the end any argument based on feelings is hogwash.

      Give me Aristotle, Aquinas, and some remorseless logic any day.

      • TylerEzro

        I think its a generational thing. Those who went to church as baby boomers wanted more individualism and charismatic experiences in religion, distrusting the intellectual life in religion. Those who want pure gut "spirituality" in our generation are either evangelicals, wiccans and progressives who deny the validity of the Nicene Creed. If you are a regular church goer and traditional Christian, you probably have less use for emotional, intuitive spirituality but instead prefer a more doctrinal and intellectual approach to faith,

  • mancreatedgod

    "Anyone who has seen the world of violence as I have I think knows this. And in many respects we have all seen this world, and all feel this."

    Of course he's seen this world. Who can possibly claim a larger trail of blood than the church.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

      "Who can possibly claim a larger trail of blood than the church"

      Atheists can.

      • mancreatedgod

        "Atheists can"

        Yeah, that atheist inquisition was a real nightmare…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

      I'd vote for those who mangle the lessons of history with oversimplified generalizations. I can't prove it, mind you, but I guess that's not required.

      • scf

        I agree. I think there are some beliefs that have led people to cause harm to others. But I don't think a belief in God, or lack thereof, in itself, predisposes one towards violence.

        • Susan

          When you are willing to replace rationality with superstition, you can be controlled by humans with god stories (the twin towers).

          This, of course, is not the only way toward violence, but it is the most pernicious way because it hides itself in goodness and lofty goals.

          • scf

            I think that human nature leads humans to violence, I think there is a capacity in the DNA of many to cause harm to others in the name of self-interest.

            Whether one allows oneself to be controlled by others is something inherent in the personality of the weak person, I don't think it is particular to god stories.

            I don't think it is possible to claim there is a pernicious way to violence or a non-pernicious way. The end result is all that matters. That is why I cannot tolerate those that claim Soviet communists did not know that their support for communism would lead to death for many. To me that is irrelevant. If you take an action that contributes directly to violence, then you are guilty, whether or not you were willing or capable of seeing the connection.

            I do agree with your earlier statement that It is the height of “hypocrisy and self-righteousness” to tell others what they believe

          • Susan

            Gullibility to god stories is human nature and that is what can so easily lead to violence. Atheists have a p.r. problem, The general prevailing public opinion is that without a god belief we are supposed to be amoral. Anything we tell you must be born of evil. The opposite is true for religious people. If they are evil, they can use that to their advantage because people in general are not as skeptical of them. Why do you think so many priests were able to get away with certain behaviors for so long? In general, people give religious people a pass because what they are doing is must be good. Why can't an atheist get elected to public office?

          • scf

            Why can't an atheist get elected to public office?

            Because most people are not atheist. It's a minority group. There was controversy about Romney because he was a mormon, and we are still waiting for a woman president. Same old same old.

          • Susan

            No, Mitt and Hillary were candidates. No atheist has come that close. When 3 presidential candidates can publicly say they believe in creationism without public revolt, you know an atheist doesn't have a chance.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

            Aren't people of Kenyian ancestry a minority also?… or did I miss something about the last election?

            Obama would never have been elected if he had professed atheism, and everybody knows it.

            There are mormans, and women in congress.

            One congressman has come out as an athiest, and that was after he was elected, and had already declared he wasn't running again.

            For 15-16% (non-religious)of the population we are woefully underrepresented.
            This reflects a stigma, and mistrust of athiests in society, which is unfair and discriminatory IMHO
            and a unfair claiming of virtue for those who choose to believe in the supernatural

          • André

            You're all absolutely right about my opinion of atheism.

            I for one think I'm too open minded to be an atheist. I couldn't elect an atheist, not because of his/hers beliefs but rather what he/she is ignoring in order to maintain that belief.

            I wouldn't mind a religious representative because usually while they maintain that God is responsible for everything they won't actually ignore the science's work an influence in our lifes.

            Atheists on the other hand have to maintain that everything they don't see or understand doesn't exist, lest they become agnostic. That is the kind of closed mindedness that I don't want managing my tax money.

          • Susan

            I love this type of argument the best. It's the perfect cirular argument. It goes like this:

            1) SOME things that you don't understand or know to exist MIGHT actually exist and therefore should be acted on.

            2) SOME things that you don't understand or know to exist DON'T exist and therefore should not be acted on.

            Now a person who wants to sell you a car may or may not have the title. Do you give him the money and have faith he will put the title in the mail?

            If we don't use our five senses and/or science to determine if things exist, what do we use?

            Religious people will say they use the Word of God (this is the circular part). He spoke to people 2000 years ago and did all sorts of miracles around that time and earlier, but according to most religious He has remained silence since.

            Why did God find it so necessary to reveal Himself thousands of years ago, but not fifty? When he does reveal Himself 150 years ago, only some people accept that as evidence. Why doesn't everybody? Why doesn't everybody believe in the same version of god?

            So religious people end up having to discard the Word of some Gods and select only one Word from one God. God doesn’t tell religious people which God to choose; they have to choose for themselves. That’s why God is a man-made choice.

          • André

            I don't know what kind of life changing scars that catholic school teacher left on you with a ruler stick but I'm sure she meant well. I just know that it gave you a pretty slanted view against religion because you saw in my argument a religious component when there wasn't any.

            I've never we should all believe in what we don't know exist, I've simply said that we should't believe we know it doesn't exist. That's where people like you fail because they can't make the distinction between Atheism an Adeism.

            As an atheist you can't say I don't believe in God because he doesn't exist, you can only say I don't believe in God because I don't care. As an Adeist, you can pretend you have an omnipotent view of the Universe and say with misguided certitude God doesn't exist.

            On the other hand a lot of enlightened religious people will tell that their quest for god is not about the destination but about the journey. To them seeking god in their lives has opened their eyes and mind to things they couldn't see before. That's all subjective.

            Here's the part where you remind me of the crusades as an argument that nobody should be religious…right?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

            Your idea of what athiesm posits is misinformed.

            Most Atheists take a position like
            "I see no good evidence for God, therefore until said evidence is provided I have no reason to believe one exists"

            As a good skeptic I use this measure to determine the reasonability of believing (or not) in all kinds of things.
            Fairies, ghosts, zombies, Yeweh, Zeus, etc.

            You may be comforted by a leader who closes his/her eyes, and comes up with policy based on what the "Creator" has told them, but many of us are not.

            The most annoying part is the absolute certainty certain religious people claim, while projecting there own flaw on atheism.

            As far as you being "too open minded"… I'm very skeptical of that

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

            Your idea of what athiesm posits is misinformed.

            Most Atheists take a position like
            "I see no good evidence for God, therefore until said evidence is provided I have no reason to believe one exists"

            As a good skeptic I use this measure to determine the reasonability of believing (or not) in all kinds of things.
            Fairies, ghosts, zombies, Yeweh, Zeus, etc.

            You may be comforted by a leader who closes his/her eyes, and comes up with policy based on what the "Creator" has told them, but many of us are not.

            The most annoying part is the absolute certainty certain religious people claim, while projecting their own flaws on atheism.

            As far as you being "too open minded"… I'm very skeptical of that

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/janicemaerose janicemaerose

            Well said Susan. The way of the world and its wars.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

          That would really depend on the "God", would it not?

          • scf

            Possibly. I just don't see a particular connection to belief or non-belief in God. There could equally well be a correlation between vegetarians and violence. Is there any reason to believe that the guy who believes in God is more likely to harm his neighbour than the guy who doesn't? How about the guy who likes Harley motorcycles? How about the guy who likes hunting? The guy who likes little girly dolls?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            Again, it depends on the "God" in which one believes. If one believes in a god that demands "his" followers punish those who deny him, then the "particular connection" is obviously made. There could not "equally well" be a correlation between vegetarians and violence because vegetarianism contains nothing about the way one should act towards other people, only what ones diet should consist of.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

            To much cabbage can certainly put someone in a foul mood though.

        • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

          Agreed. Religions don't kill people, people kill people.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

            … with religions.

          • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

            touché

  • Former Atheist

    "We all seek god". I think the author's intent with this statement is that we all seek higher purpose, meaning, identity – transcendence of our current situation (whether consciously, in practice or unconsciously). This doesn't refer to any specific "god", or being that requires worship, but the process to a purer state of being more perfect, more true and more peaceful. In this search, we seek the form of godliness. The substance of this search is obviously individualized, but this is the teleology of our human evolution, whether natural or social.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

      Sorry, that isn't the case. I realize how completely insignificant humans are. We are blip on the radar of the universe. All I seek is a career so that I can travel and enjoy things while I am here. And when I am gone, I will become carbon in the earth. You are imposing his views in just a more polite manner. But it is just as rude.

  • Susan

    No, it's not true that we all seek "higher purpose…transcendence." I am perfectly happy with who I am. I am happy with my values.

    It is true that many people do seek this. But it simply wrong to believe that everyone is like you simply because you feel that way.

    • Former Atheist

      I never said everyone is like me, in fact, I said " the substance of this search is obviously individualized".

      You missed the point of my argument Susan. It is great that you are content with your life. But, have you always been that way? You never questioned what you are doing? You never asked if you could be a better person in any other way? You never tried to make the world around you a better place? You never seek purpose outside of the day to day minutiae of your own life? When you die, you are happy with simply "I existed" ?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

    "but religion does form the foundation of faith"

    A fairly questionable assertion, I'd argue. And Richards goes on to burden the concept of faith with a myriad of meanings and origins, managing to be both circular and tangental in a very short span. Maybe the book is more persuasive, but I have to say this piece doesn't encourage me to check it out.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

      I tend to agree; my gut reaction to that statement was that it was bass-ackwards: faith would be a foundation of religion…but I'm no expert in these things.

      To (mis)quote someone, and I'm not sure whom: Religion is praying for it to rain; faith is carrying an umbrella.

  • m.r.

    NONSENSE!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

    There is an interesting issue from modern science that sheds some interesting light on faith. All current theories and descriptions of the universe are deterministic. Any deterministic treatment of the universe precludes free will. In the absence of free will, considerations of all human values are profoundly changed. We become simply complicated mechanical objects and ascribing "human" values to ourselves makes no more sense than doing it to your current computer. (which tellingly most people do to some extent) This actually flips the Turing criteria, there is no answer we can provide that proves we are not simply automata. Complex, sensitive, unreliable and hard to predict automata, but automata none the less.

    Yet, at least in our gut, I believe we all believe we have free will. Our conscientious convinces use completely of this, although it changes the science not one whit. So if you believe (and I know you do) in your own free will, then by definition you believe in something well outside current science. So while I do not believe in Santa Claus, or a man with a beard in the clouds, or even eternal life, I have to admit I have a belief in something that is contracted by science.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

      Daniel Dennett is my faovourite author/speaker on this subject.

      He rejects your premise that "Any deterministic treatment of the universe precludes free will", and feels that they can co-exist quite logically.
      If you're interested in the subject I would highly recomend checking him out.

      Although "free will" is more of a philosophical subject, it doesn't preclude science from addressing it now or in the future. At the very least a scientific (or at least logical) approach can be taken to recoincile free will and what we know about nature.
      In short, science certainly doesn't "contradict free will".

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

        To achieve this Dennett and those that precede him have had to distort our instinctive concept of free will. In their view, you have free will because you can make decisions in the absence of any explicit compulsion. In this way, they strive to regain free will on a macroscopic level by giving up on it at a microscopic level. Indeed this ideal of free will (along with consciousness) as an emergent property is all that we have given current science. I agree that it is possible through such concepts to develop models of consciousness and free will that are indistinguishable from observations of reality. My issue is that such a definition of free will needs to be arbitrarily propped up so that we do not grant free will to inanimate objects. A full balloon released in the middle of the room apparently makes arbitrary decisions about turning right, left, up an down. Watching such a balloon, you might notice how much its behaviour resembles a preschooler burning up extra energy.

        So while I acknowledge that Dennett's free will is compatible with determinism, his version of free will is a pale projection of the free will I seem to experience everyday. That does not mean that I am right about free will, just that I will be disappointed if I am wrong.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

          Science and logic can tend to distrort our instinctive or "common sense" notion of things, which in my opinion is a very good thing.

          You seem to accept consciouness as an emergant property, so I think you are answering your own question.
          No talk of free-will is complete without a discussion of the mind-body problem.

          On a microscopic level a molecule of water cannot be said to be wet. The wettness only emerges as molecules of water reach a critical point where enough water has collected to be "wet".
          Nothing in science contradicts this phenomenon.

          Taking it bravely to the next level, a single brain cell cannot be said to have free-will, but as enough get together…

          I think the balloon and wind analogies fall rather flat as these are understood natural air effects (ie. brownian motion, climate science)

          A more instructive analogy would be towards a lesser animal, say a dog.
          Does a dog have free-will?
          I say why not, or it is at least it is a good enough approximation as to appear to be free-will.
          So how is our experience different from a dogs?
          I think the most obvious answer is the nature of our physical brains.

          Also if a persons physical brain is damaged, his/her personality (free-will) may be affected.
          This would not be the case if our consciousness were separate from our physical brain.
          There is no need (or reason) to attribute free-will to inanimate objects (no brain, no emergant consciousness)

          The final solution to these problems is far in the future, but I believe that they are in reach of human understanding, and we are well on our way.

          Now if only we could figure out whats exactly is going on with that tricky observer/observed phenomenon at the sub-atomic level…..

      • Susan

        Just saying Dennett disagrees with me is not good evidence. If you can explain his argument because you understand it, then for for it.

        I don't really care whether we have free will or not. Form the evidence I gave, the science seems clear to me that we don't. It doesn't really change anything. But if you want to change my mind, go for it. You have to say something.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

          Susan the reference to Dennett was in response to ARJ… You and I do not disagree of the substance of the facts. Your gut says you have free will, your "head" says you don't.
          So if your head is right, then there really is absolutely nothing special about us except that we are kinda complicated. Is one person killing another person unethical? Is the wind blowing down a tree unethical? Once we are reduced to mechanical objects, what is ethics? And yet we believe in ethics and all kinds of other intellectual stuff that requires free will to make sense. So it is not really just a gut, or emotional issue. Most of your rational thought is based on the precept that you have free will. If you actually do not believe in free will how rational can your thoughts be?

          In the end we have three options:

          1) the best: Live with our inherent inconsistency and try not to think about it. (going la la la la helps)

          2) my option: Hope our science is incomplete and will eventually allow for free will ( I am currently conducting experiments with tin foil hats hoping for a breakthrough)

          3) Have "faith" that our science is correct, and rip apart your inner self (really painful I am told)

          • Susan

            I was actually responding to ARJ myself.

            Whether we are special or complicated doesn't change my morality. I don't keep myself from stealing or killing other people because I don't want human nature to get a bad name.

            My "mechanistic" brain knows that I don't have the free will to stop the pain and hatred I would feel about myself if I treated others as if they were a tree for me to cut down. Ethics doesn't require free will. Besides nurture, ethics requires genes–genes that some people with autism lack. They have to actually learn that other people are not trees.

            I vote for #4. The science maybe be right or it may be wrong, but it is just a science of finding out about the conditions we are already living under. It doesn't change anything. If not having free will feels like having it, who cares? My inner parts are very much intact. No gnashing needed.

    • Susan

      Yes, we feel in our gut that we have free will. But we don't. Free will means you could at any moment do anything. Is that really true? We are shaped by our genes and our life experiences: those things happen to us. They are the chaos that makes us feel like we have free will. But if all people had the exact same genes and the exact same life experiences, why would they behave differently? They wouldn't. It's only an interesting thought experiment that we get a glimpse of through twin studies.

      Life feels like free will. It's clearly not. But that doesn't mean we know ahead of time what we will do. That's the cool part. And that's why it feels like free will.

    • Craig O

      Yeah, all current theories and descriptions of the universe are not deterministic. In quantum mechanics, in lieu of rejecting causality (at least, local causality), we reject determinism. So far as we know (and this trait has been and continues to be heavily scrutinized), the same experiment can be performed twice, with all conditions being identical, yet with a potentially different result.

      I have no idea what, if any, effect these violations of determinism on a quantum scale have on the human mind, but your initial premise is false, at least within the realm of mainstream science (though again, the matter is far from universally accepted).

  • Rik

    What a fool. Isnt religion just science for dummies?

  • Gary

    Mr. Richards does not make sense. Historically Christian intolerance and
    dogmas had let to atrocities committed against millions.

    Far from being immoral, atheists and other skeptics (like Deists)
    have always been in the forefront of moral progress. The evidence over
    the last couple of hundred years, when atheists were able to openly
    function in society, attests to this fact.

    The call for the abolition of black slavery came not from Christians but
    from atheists generally. Slavery was abolish in France in 1791, not by
    the church, but by the atheistic founders of the revolution. In the U.S.
    the early critics of slavery, Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), George
    Washington (1732-1799), Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) and John
    Quincy Adams (1767-1848), were all either atheists or Deists. Later the
    abolitionist cause was taken up by such people as Abraham Lincoln
    (1809-1865), a Deist, Raplh Waldo Emerson (1803-1882), a Unitarian
    minister turned atheist, and William Lyold Garrison (1805-1879), an
    atheist. In England, the battle for the abolition of slavery was fought
    mainly by such as Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) and John Stuart Mill
    (1806-1873) – atheists all.

    • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

      Was J.S. Mill an atheist? I'm a big fan of his, and would love if he was but I thought the jury was still out on that. In On Liberty, I got the impression that he was a Christian, although he didn't find a complete morality in the religion.

    • Westy

      Two points:

      1) If we want to talk about intolerance and dogma's leading to atrocities committed again millions take a look at Soviet Russia.

      2) The Quakers and William Wilberforce were driving forces behind abolition in Great Britian.

      My point being, if you want to pull up examples they exist on both sides of the coin, leading me to the conclusion that its not religion or lack thereof that causes atrocities or ends them, as the fact that humans have a mixture of good and evil in them.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    I bet this comment will be a really tight squeeze.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    Help! I'm claustrophobic!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

    There is some frog joke here I can't put my finger on.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      Unfortunatelythere's not enough space here for a proper frog joke.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    A frog, a priest and Michael Jackson walk into a bar…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      And the bar ten- der says: what d oyou want?

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      And the bar ten- der says: what d o you want?

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      And the bar ten- der says: what do you want?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

        HELP SOME BODY SQUISHED ME!!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

          l
          o
          l

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      And the bar ten- der says: what do you want?

      So the fr- og sez

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

    Typical self-rightous religious nut. I can assure you sir, I do not believe in God. And I think you know there is no God, but you believe so you don't feel like the tiny, insignificant speck that all humans are in the face of the universe. No so polite of me to impose my views on you, is it? Don't do it to me. I am educated and can think for myself.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/keith_c keith_c

    one of the best comment streams i've ever seen on here. has there ever been a more highbrow discussion on any other major news outlet's web site, I ask you. I was taken aback at the ferocity some of the anti-religious vitriol – or maybe more surprised that it was driven by an interview with harmless-seeming David Adams Richards. I've only read one Adams book – Evening Snow Will Bring Such Peace – and enjoyed the melancholic voyage through the lives of feckless small-town Maritimers who drink too much, though I must say I wasn't driven to read more of his work. Rather than debate philosophical or religions questions, the interview makes me more curious about the Miramichi (and the Maritimes') social anthropology– since after all DAR's work is so rooted in a sense of place

  • Susan

    "Harmless-seeming" is an interesting adjective. It is what is driving the New Atheism. Atheists are tired of being demonized, portrayed as amoral. You might say you don't view atheists that way, but you can't say many religious Americans don't. It's odd that their faith doesn't protect them from such perverse thinking. And it's odd that decent religious people (you, perhaps) have been unable to shame them into silence.

    If Richards can get you to believe that he knows better what we think than we do ourselves, he starts you on the path to dismissing us, encouraging you to believe that atheists are confused about who they are. Once you dismiss us as confused, it is easy to take away our rights. Our money reflects it, our national pledge reflects it, and my city almost allowed a merger of all hospitals under one monolithic Catholic hospital, so if I wanted to get birth control, I'd have to have an out-of-town doctor.

    There is an excellent reason for the ferocity.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/LarryDJ LarryDJ

    For solid proof the Biblical Jesus Christ is real,read the award wining book The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel.

    • Susan

      If it's so convincing, why can't you summarize the proof? That's what the rest of us have been doing. We've read books and lived life and we are not explaining why we have arrived at our beliefs. You can do it to. Why did Strobel convince you?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

      I read it.

      In it Strobel admits that the much of mention of Christ in Josephus' writings were "interpolations by 3rd century Christians"
      The most credible extra-biblical evidense their is for JC.
      This make sense as Josephus died a devout Jew.

      Interpolation means forgery
      So I ask you, Why would earlt Christians need to put forgeries in Josephus' writings?
      Why lie, if the truth is so evident?

      Perhaps you would also enjoy Strobels talks on how "Darwinism" is wrong
      That PhD is for law, not science.

      That's what you get for trusting a lawer for your history, and science.
      Good ole Lee, lying for Jesus

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