UPDATED: The torture files: The leaders speak!

by kadyomalley on Monday, August 31, 2009 1:05pm - 91 Comments

UPDATED: SCROLL DOWN FOR THE LATEST RESPONSE

Okay, so this is actually something that ITQ has actually been meaning to do for a while, but for some reason, she never seems to get around to it, probably because after reading a few pages of back-and-forth bickering over what Ignatieff is or isn’t, or was or wasn’t, saying in his voluminous pre-political writings on torture, she almost always ends up so darned tired of the subject that she never wants to hear the words “lesser evil” again.

Like a bad penny, though, it keeps turning up, which is why this seemed like as good a time as any to make the effort to find out where all of the various federal party leaders stand on the use of torture and/or coercive interrogation, if only so we can finally move onto the next stage of the debate, whatever that turns out to be. And so, last night, she dispatched the following query to the Office of the Leader of the Opposition, on the theory that she may as well start with the leader at the centre of the controversy:

What is Michael Ignatieff’s current view on the use of coercive interrogation/torture by the state against suspected terrorists?

Despite the fact that she was enroute to Sudbury, OLO press secretary Jill Fairbrother responded with remarkable haste:

His current view is the same view he held as a renowned human rights expert who helped author the Responsibility to Protect: he is opposed.

ITQ then asked if it was fair to say that Ignatieff’s 2006 essay for Prospect Magazine — yes, that essay — stands, to which Fairbrother replied by repeating the last three words of her original response: “I would say he is opposed.”

Well, it’s an answer, of sorts —  although a surprisingly terse one, particularly when contrasted with the lengthy and laboriously nuanced musing that he’s done on the subject in the past, but given the context — or, rather, the continual out-of-context-yoinking of his previous statements by political opponents — an understandable change in tone, I guess.

But what about the other party leaders? Well, turns out that not all of them seem to have had a copypasteable response ready and waiting in the queue. The following question was sent out this morning to all four leaders’ offices:

“What is your position on the use of torture and/or coercive interrogation during wartime?” (For parameter-setting purposes, the ‘War on Terror’ constitutes ‘wartime’ for the purpose of this question.)

Note: I’m interested in [Leader's Name]‘s *personal view*, from a philosophical perspective, and though the answer may include the phrase ‘Unlike Mr. Ignatieff’ (or, for that matter, ‘Like Mr. Ignatieff’, although I’m betting that’s not likely to happen), but must principally relate to [Leader]‘s position.*

At post time, ITQ is still awaiting a response from the Prime Minister’s Office, and the Bloc Quebecois.

The NDP, however, was only too eager to provide their leader’s position on the subject, which arrived less than an hour later, courtesy of Layton’s director of strategic communications, Rick Boychuk:

Torture is abhorrent, and Canada has a clear position against torture, both under the Charter, the Geneva Conventions and the Torture Convention

-Canada should not use information derived from torture

–Canada should not allow anyone to be transferred to authorities where the abuse and torture are likely

Dawn Black presented C-551, a definitive Private Member’s Bill on the subject, that we hope to bring forward again.

As soon as she hears back from the other two offices, ITQ will update this post to include their respective responses to the question. Won’t that be fun? Or at least more fun than bickering over whether or not the nation’s press has let everyone down by not asking the question often enough, or at all?

DIZZYINGLY FAST UPDATE: Well, look at that — by a serendipitous twist — seriously, I don’t think he even knew I was working on this — Colleague Wherry just put up a link to an interview with then-PMO spokesperson Kory Teneycke from last April that seems to shed some light, at least, on what Canada’s official position is on torture, or at least on what was being done to American detainees and prisoners in the aftermath of the September 11th attacks.

ITQ is still waiting to hear what the prime minister’s personal opinion is, however, since it seems only fair to compare apples with apples. If Ignatieff is to be questioned about his opinion — in some cases from before he had even entered politics — then Stephen Harper should be willing to discuss his position, which may or may not be the same as current government policy.

LATE AFTERNOON UPDATE – Here’s the official response from the Prime Minister’s chief spokesperson, Dimitri Soudas:

The Prime Minister unequivocally condemns torture in all its forms. Canada is a signatory to both the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.


All we need is a reply from the Bloc Quebecois, and we’ve got the whole set! Oh, except Elizabeth May, but really, is anyone the slightest bit uncertain about what her position is?

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  • Anon

    Meanwhile, I'm following various journalistic scandals in the US, whereby the news media passed on unsubstantiated claims by government officials and their surrogates that proved torture was effective. I'd be interested in determining our political leaders' level of credulity when it comes to that kind of thing.

  • http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com bigcitylib

    As someone who gave Iggy a hard time during the 2006 leadership campaign over this issue, and has read most of the relevant materials since (although not The Lesser Evil in its entirety), I do believe that he was always opposed to torture and that to argue otherwise is to twist quotes out of context.

    I still think his "apology" for his position on Iraq was pretty mealy-mouthed, though.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

    Bravo Kady,
    Please keep us updated on any (non)answers.
    While we wait, I have sent an email to Mark Donald the famous author from Queens.
    http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/08/21/cross-me-and-i…
    suggesting that he consider writing about Dimitri, Williamson and Igneski brainstorming on the answer.

  • Riley Hennessey

    Again I'm going to say how silly it is that you are asking people their "personal opinion". If you're truly interested in it, then you should find out what our official policy is with respect to detainees, who/how we conduct interrogations, and whether or not our rules differ from those of the United States.

    All you are doing is getting opinions from various leaders about U.S. policy… not Canadian. Of course, they will all say they do not condone torture. Who would? Even Cheney says he is "against" torture.. but he defines torture very differently than most.

    It would be far better to do some investigative work, and then get political leaders to react to your findings.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

      I appreciate hearing your views, but at the moment, this is the question that I am interested in asking the leaders. Perhaps you are unaware of the context, but Ignatieff has been the target of considerable criticism over past statements on the subject — statements which, in some cases, were made before he entered politics. Given that this point has been raised by supporters of his political opponents, who have repeatedly kvetched over the failure of the Canadian media to press him on this very question, I decided that it was as good a place as any to start. Depending on what the responses are, I may indeed have followup questions for some, or all of the leaders, but at the moment, I'm still waiting for the responses to this question.

      • http://fullyoffset.blogspot.com Jon

        Thanks for looking into this.

        I think what Riley is missing is that the investigative work had been done. The results were arguably vague so the next step was actually required.

        I think you fail to see that people who are hard on Ignatieff are not necessarily against Ignatieff. Liberals who didn't put him in power would like to know as much as possible about this guy before we give him opportunity to call an election and lead the country. Just as an enemy of an enemy isn't necessarily a friend; a friend of a friend isn't either.

        You're great, though I can't say much for the shoutdown artists who keep showing up here.

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

          Hey, I'd never tell *anyone* not to be hard on Ignatieff, or any other political leader. If I ever do, please feel free to roundly ignore and/or mock me.

      • RayK

        I think the key point in Riley's comment is the line "[e]ven Cheney says he is 'against' torture". Indeed, to this day, Dick Cheney claims that he is against torture and that nothing the US government did on his watch constituted such. But that's what makes this a meanless standard. It's the easiest thing in the world to claim and impossible to disprove without getting into an argument over semantics.

        And there's the rub. Even as late as April 2006–after he had entered the liberal leadership–Michael Ignatieff was still treating torture like a game of semantics. Even then, the same story: coercive interrogation, yes, but torture, no. And all of this long after we'd learned that what the Bush administration called "coercive interrogation" was, in fact, torture by any reasonable definition of the term.

        Therein lies the problem with Ignatieff: he thinks words matter more than actions. Kady, your question is a great place to start, but the obvious follow up is this: "Why wasn't your answer that clear when it mattered?"

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

        Good for you Kady…Finally someone in the media is prepared to address some of the so called pronouncements of Iggy. He has twisted in the wind and tried to massage his message on torture and his representative is being misleading and in fact fabricating what his previous positions have been. Maybe they have changed since he entered politics but he needs to admit that he no longer supports any type of torture.We will get that kind of definitive response. I doubt it.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

          You know, I'm a little puzzled by this suggestion that nobody has written about Ignatieff's statements on torture/coercive interrogation before now. First of all, it's not as though he said it once, over scotch at a private event — he wrote op-eds, essays, even a few books and appeared on television on numerous occasions to discuss his views, and if you do a little googling, you can find numerous articles detailing the controversy, dating back to his very first leadership foray. It's perfectly reasonable for you to decide that you just don't agree with what he said in 2004, 2006 or earlier today, but if you can't bring yourself to believe him when he says he didn't support torture, I'm not sure how much more coverage would do to change your mind.

    • Anon

      How about you get your own blog? Then you can decide what to write about.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    Colleague Wherry just put up a link to an interview with then-PMO spokesperson Kory Teneycke from last April that seems to shed some light, at least, on what Canada’s official position is on torture, or at least on what was being done to American detainees and prisoners in the aftermath of the September 11th attacks.

    I'm not sure that Wherry's interview sheds light on anything. He was trying to get the PMO's Director of Communications to go on record saying that the Americans are guilty of torture, which of course would have led to headlines like "Canadian PM's office: USA tortured prisoners"! Teneycke quite adroitly dodged this potential minefield.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    Colleague Wherry just put up a link to an interview with then-PMO spokesperson Kory Teneycke from last April that seems to shed some light, at least, on what Canada’s official position is on torture, or at least on what was being done to American detainees and prisoners in the aftermath of the September 11th attacks.

    I'm not sure that Wherry's interview sheds light on anything. He was trying to get the PMO's Director of Communications to go on record saying that the Americans are guilty of torture, which of course would have led to headlines like "Canadian PM's office: USA tortured prisoners"! Teneycke (quite responsibly) dodged this potential minefield.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/IanBC IanBC

      It makes me a bit sad that the "responsible" thing to do is to avoid acknowledging that the US tortured prisoners when, in fact, the US tortured prisoners. While I don't think our government should have led a morally righteous dogpile on the US, couldn't we have found half a spine and said "It looks like that's what happened. Hopefully it won't happen again. Canada doesn't condone torture."?

  • Mulletaur

    It's funny that everybody is so excited to comment on the Opposition leader's opinion on how the Yankees obtain information from their detainees, but nobody has even thought to ask a sitting Prime Minister, who actually has the power to determine whether security detainees from Canada end up in the hands of the United States authorities, that question, at least until now.

    I think Canadians know what Harper's real answer to this question is, whatever the 'official' answer ends up being, as this is the same Prime Minister who would have sent Canadian troops to Iraq. Harper would have made Canada a fully signed up member of Bush's "War of Terror" (to channel Borat). His government's behaviour concerning the repatriation of a child soldier, Omar Khadr, and the change in policy concerning Canadians facing the death penalty abroad are evidence, if ever any more were needed, of Harper's attitudes towards human rights.

    • http://fullyoffset.blogspot.com Jon

      I'm not sure your made up "would have"s have anything to do with what we're discussing.

      There would also be soliders, with guns, in the streets.

      • Mulletaur

        We don't need to judge Harper on his words, just by his actions. Harper is against human rights. If he were in favour of human rights, he would have repatriated Khadr, a Canadian citizen, a child soldier at the time he was captured, and no doubt the victim of mistreatment by the US government in Guantanamo, including but not limited to failing to treat his wounds properly and promptly. (Khadr is also the last Western national held there ask yourself why everybody else took their nationals back and not us.) He would have condemned the US government for maintaining the detention of a child soldier. But he didn't, even though the current US administration wants to shut down Gitmo. Instead, his government continues to fight against Khadr's repatriation through the courts. We know which side Harper is on, and it's not human rights.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

      You take Khadr and have him live in your house if you want him to come back so badly. Most Canadians do not want him repatriated until the charges have been dealt with appropriately.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Harbles Harbles

        I think this G&M opinion piece is a good reply.

        The Canadian government could sit down with U.S. officials and Mr. Khadr's representatives, assess the strength of the U.S. evidence and arrange for a plea agreement, with whatever penalty, served in Canada, is appropriate in all the circumstances of the case.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Harbles Harbles

        I think this G&M opinion piece is a good reply.

        " The Canadian government could sit down with U.S. officials and Mr. Khadr's representatives, assess the strength of the U.S. evidence and arrange for a plea agreement, with whatever penalty, served in Canada, is appropriate in all the circumstances of the case. "

      • Mulletaur

        He doesn't have to live in my house, but he might have to do a spell in the Big House. In any case, he should be put on trial here in Canada if making him answer charged doesn't violate our international obligations regarding child soldiers.

  • Anon

    Isn't reading Iggy torture enough?

    • Mulletaur

      Just think of how all those poor Conservative staffers in Research are suffering.

  • AnnieS

    I suspect the conservatives who think in black and white and don't seem to understand nuances have misinterpreted Mr. Ignatieff's writings.

    • http://fullyoffset.blogspot.com Jon

      I think it's the vague spectrum of gray that we're concerned about more.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

    Two comments:

    1) this would make a great regular feature. Email questions of interest to the leaders (or ministers and shadow ministers as appropriate) and then publish all answers and nonanswers.

    2) Why oh why Kady are you breaking Lizzies heart by leaving her out of this? After all, the Greens now have a position on everything from CO2 to wafers.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

    "…it seems only fair.."

    All the more reason to brace yourself for the silence. I probably don't need to remind you to not take it personally. Consider it a business decision.

  • Lord Kitchener's Own

    Is waterboarding torture?

    No, I don't expect any of our leaders to answer what should be a pretty simple yes/no question, but do my fellow peanut galleryers care to chime in?

    Waterboarding: Torture, or Not?

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      I should say that on the waterboarding thing, I take my own cue from this quote from a prominent American politician:

      "“All I can say is that it was used in the Spanish Inquisition, it was used in Pol Pot’s genocide in Cambodia, and there are reports that it is being used against Buddhist monks today… They should know what it is. It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture."

      Sounds about right to me.

    • http://fullyoffset.blogspot.com Jon

      Yes,

      Celine Dion: Torture, or Not?

      • Jenn

        No, absolutely not, to the Celine Dion thing. I don't know why we think it's cool to make fun of her as if she's a reject from American Idol or something. The woman was vastly overhyped and overexposed after the Titanic and everyone on this earth must have been sick of that song already, but that doesn't mean the woman can't sing, or to listen to that song–now–is torture. No wonder our successful artists make a bee-line out of the country at the first opportunity if this is how we treat them.

        As to the waterboarding, yes.

        I have a question for the Conservatives on the board (or PMO–Kady??). If the policy is that the Government of Canada does not condone torture, does not allow (if we can help it) our citizens to be detained by a country that practices torture, and waterboarding is torture, and the Americans waterboarded their detainees at Guantanamo–why are we spending a lot of money taking a case to the Supreme Court in order not to repatriate a detainee at Guantanamo? Isn't this a complete contradiction? Please explain where I have gone wrong.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Silly_Walks Silly_Walks

      To quote Christopher Hitchens, who was waterboarded, 'If this isn't torture, I don't know what is"

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

        Clearly he hasn't tried reading "God is not Great" since sending it off to the publisher.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP PhilCP

          Nice, very nice.

          I find that 'problem' extends to many English english authours; I can follow their reasoning (might not agree with all of it, but I can follow it) when they are being interviewed on TV/radio/etc, but when I try to read their books I have a great deal of difficulty. I have concluded that this is because English english authours construct their phrases/sentences subtly different that Canadian or US english folks, and that when you listen to them speak it is easy to follow because you have access to all of the audio cues about phrasing and so on.

          With a little more practice I'm sure I could get through those works….

          On second thought, that was only part of the explanation wrt "God is Not Great", but not the entire explanation. Another part might have been that he is a bit of a pompous so and so.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/craigola craigola

      Watch this, I'm Stephen Gordon, and I'm going to prove that LKO says waterboarding is not torture: "Is waterboarding torture?

      No, I don't expect"

      Hooray! Also, for SHAME, LKO!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

      I don't believe it is torture but it's clearly not pleasant either. My definition of torture is something that leaves you maimed or dead.

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        My definition of torture is something that leaves you maimed or dead.

        That's a bit narrow isn't it? I mean, repeated electrocution could leave one neither dead nor maimed if executed properly. Not to be too gruesome, but would you say that a car battery applied to the genitals isn't torture?

        I think if you let your mind go to a particularly nasty place, that you could come up with dozens, if not hundreds of things you could do to a person without miming or killing them that no person in their right mind could POSSIBLY deny counted as torture. In the 21st century it's terrifyingly amazing how much extreme physical pain and suffering you can cause someone without leaving any permanent physiological damage.

        If the parameter is simply "if it doesn't maim or kill the suspect it's not torture", then it's pretty close to open season, imho.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

          Depends how you define maimed, I guess. 'Maimed' means more than losing a limb and I think car battery/genitals would qualify.

          Torture is more about inflicting pain, whereas my understanding of waterboarding is that it's more terrifying than painful.

          And thanks a lot Lord KO. I am feeling ever so slightly maimed myself at the moment thinking about what car battery/genitals would feel like.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

      Yes, its torture.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

    The PM's personal opinion is irrelevant. It is his position as the leader of our country. That position may or may not be the same.__Harper's government is part of a war in Afghanistan and as such is guided by the experienced people who are charged with executing the war. Unlike Obama who is dismantling his country's ability to gain valuable information to protect their own soldiers and their country Harper is going to be guided by those that are fighting. Only the looney left want to unilaterally disarm their own side by limiting their soldiers to obtain intell.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

    The PM's personal opinion is irrelevant. It is his position as the leader of our country. That position may or may not be the same.__Harper's government is part of a war in Afghanistan and as such is guided by the experienced people who are charged with executing the war. Unlike Obama who is dismantling his country's ability to gain valuable information to protect their own soldiers and their country Harper is going to be guided by those that are fighting. Only the looney left want to unilaterally disarm their own side by limiting their soldiers ability to obtain intell.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

      No, no, that's not true, HollinM — if Ignatieff's personal opinion, which is what it was when he made those comments, is relevant, so is that of the prime minister. Can't have it both ways, after all. I know you deplore double standards.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

        Kady….Iggy wants to be PM and so he has a responsibilty to let Canadians know where he stands on different issues. He wrote as you rightly point out on many things and because he wants to lead the country he needs to come clean. He is running from his past positions because he knows some of those positions would be an affront to the values of many Canadians. He should have the courage of his convictions and stick to his positions and explain why he feels the way he does. Otherwise trying to deny, explain or whatever he does only makes him look like a hypocrit.
        As far as Harper is concerned he is the one managing a war. He can have a personal opinion on a subject but a different one in respect to the country. As an example he does not support gay marriage but as Canada's PM he respects the will of parliament after the vote. He does not support abortion but has understands where the public is on the issue and accepts it.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

        Kady….Iggy wants to be PM and so he has a responsibilty to let Canadians know where he stands on different issues. He wrote as you rightly point out on many things and because he wants to lead the country he needs to come clean. He is running from his past positions because he knows some of those positions would be an affront to the values of many Canadians. He should have the courage of his convictions and stick to his positions and explain why he feels the way he does. Otherwise trying to deny, explain or whatever he does only makes him look like a hypocrit.
        As far as Harper is concerned he is the one managing a war. He can have a personal opinion on a subject but a different one in respect to the country. As an example he does not support gay marriage but as Canada's PM he respects the will of parliament after the vote. He does not support abortion but he understands where the public is on the issue and accepts it.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

        Kady….Iggy wants to be PM and so he has a responsibilty to let Canadians know where he stands on different issues. He wrote as you rightly point out on many things and because he wants to lead the country he needs to come clean. He is running from his past positions because he knows some of those positions would be an affront to the values of many Canadians. He should have the courage of his convictions and stick to his positions and explain why he feels the way he does. Otherwise trying to deny, explain or whatever he does only makes him look like a hypocrit.
        As far as Harper is concerned he is the one managing a war. He can have a personal opinion on a subject but a different one in respect to the country. As an example he does not support gay marriage but as Canada's PM he respects the will of parliament after the vote. He does not support abortion but he understands where the public is on the issue and accepts as leader of the country.

        • Lord Kitchener's Own

          Wait a sec. Did you just explain that Ignatieff has a responsibility to explain why he feels the way he does because he wants to be Prime Minister, but Harper doesn't have to explain why he feels the way that he does because he is Prime Minister. 'Cause I'm pretty sure you did, and I'm pretty sure that's crazy.

          The Prime Minister can have a personal opinion separate from his governing policy because he's Prime Minister, but the Leader of the Opposition can't, because he wants to be Prime Minister?!?!?

        • Jenn

          Wow. This should be a Hall of Fame post. Saying the Prime Minister's personal opinion doesn't matter, but the Leader of the Opposition's personal opinion is of paramount importance, otherwise the Leader of the Opposition is the hypocrit is breathtaking. I take back ever accusing you of being a Conbot, Hollinm. Even the Conservative Party wouldn't pay someone with such twisted logic.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

      "Only the looney left want to unilaterally disarm their own side by limiting their soldiers ability to obtain intell."

      The moral depravity of the Right knows no bounds. They literally know no higher standard than the pleasure of punching a child in the face. That's the beacon.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

        Message to Jack Mitchell….these are not a helpless people. They are people who are murdering our soldiers. Get a life.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

          They are still people. We should treat them better. Show them the humanity they are not saving for our soldiers. Otherwise, what are we fighting for?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            Hear hear. If we reduced our policy — especially our human rights policy, foreign and domestic — to a mere balance sheet of pluses and minuses, we'd soon be back at each others' throats, like we were in the 16th century — when torture was an ordinary tactic, and violence was a lifestyle.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

          Actually, hollinm, a large percentage of the people at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib were completely innocent. But they were tortured anyway. That's the logic of torture you have endorsed: kidnapping innocent people and slamming them against the wall until, if they survive, you decide you made a mistake. Because once you start torturing people, there is no difference between a terrorist cleverly hiding information and an innocent man telling the truth. You may never be a torture victim, but your grandchildren may well be, if the logic of torture is allowed to infect our body politic as you apparently desire.

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

          Actually, hollinm, a large percentage of the people at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib were completely innocent. But they were tortured anyway. That's the logic of torture you have endorsed: kidnapping innocent people and slamming them against the wall until, if they survive, you decide you made a mistake. Because once you start torturing people, there is no difference between a terrorist cleverly hiding information and an innocent man telling the truth. You may never be a torture victim, but your grandchildren may well be, if the logic of torture is allowed to infect our body politic as you apparently desire. Because their innocence will be no defense at all.

        • Canuckistanian

          "Get a life."

          were you in "Mean Girls" or are you just practicing for a role in the sequel?

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Harbles Harbles

        Why do those of the right want Al-qaeda and the Taliban to have the victory of causing western democracies to diminish and deny the rights and freedoms of their own citizens?

        Also a retired USMC Marine Major has these thoughts.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

          I don't mind answering a rhetorical question.

          Also why do those of the right want Al-qaeda and the Taliban to have the victory of causing western democracies to diminish and deny the rights and freedoms of their own citizens?

          Because the people we're talking about, like hollinm, are against freedom. They hate it, they would much prefer it that we were all goosestepping and high-fiving. That is the fascist impulse that lurks very, very close to the surface in a sizeable slice of modern humanity. They want to hate as hard as they can as often as they can. They are basically Hells Angels with two-car garages.

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

          I don't mind answering a rhetorical question.

          Also why do those of the right want Al-qaeda and the Taliban to have the victory of causing western democracies to diminish and deny the rights and freedoms of their own citizens?

          Because the people we're talking about, like hollinm, are against freedom. They hate it, they would much prefer it that we were all goosestepping and high-fiving. That is the fascist impulse that lurks very, very close to the surface in a sizeable slice of modern humanity. They worship violence for its own sake. They want to hate as hard as they can as often as they can. They are basically Hells Angels with two-car garages.

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

          I don't mind answering a rhetorical question.

          Also why do those of the right want Al-qaeda and the Taliban to have the victory of causing western democracies to diminish and deny the rights and freedoms of their own citizens?

          Because the people we're talking about, like hollinm, are against freedom. It makes their skin crawl. They would much prefer it that we were all goosestepping and high-fiving. That is the fascist impulse that lurks very, very close to the surface in a sizeable slice of modern humanity. They worship violence for its own sake. They want to hate as hard as they can as often as they can. They are basically Hells Angels with two-car garages.

        • Anon

          Why do those of the right want Al-qaeda and the Taliban to have the victory of causing western democracies to diminish and deny the rights and freedoms of their own citizens?

          Because Al Qaeda and the Taliban are smarter than our cretinous Right.

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

      "Only the looney left want to unilaterally disarm their own side by limiting their soldiers ability to obtain intell."

      The moral depravity of the Right knows no bounds. They literally know no higher standard than the pleasure of punching a helpless person in the face. That's the beacon.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

    Vhristopher Hitchens did not think it was torture for quite some time and then decided to try it – it changed his mind.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    Kudos to O'Malley (and Wherry) for tackling this, and doing it in an even-handed manner. I suggested a couple of weeks ago that the media was unlikely to ever do a full comparison of the leaders' past statements on torture with their current positions, together with a forum to discuss. It turns out I did O'Malley (and Macleans) an injustice.

    This is good journalism.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    Kudos to O'Malley (and Wherry) for tackling this, and doing it in an even-handed manner. I suggested a couple of weeks ago that the media was unlikely to ever do a full comparison of the leaders' past statements on torture with their current positions, together with a forum to discuss. It turns out I did O'Malley (and Macleans) an injustice.

    This is good journalism. Take note, CBC.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    Kudos to O'Malley (and Wherry) for tackling this, and doing it in an even-handed manner. I suggested a couple of weeks ago that the media was unlikely ever to do a full comparison of the leaders' past statements on torture with their current positions, together with a forum to discuss. It turns out I did O'Malley (and Macleans) an injustice.

    This is good journalism. Take note, CBC.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    Kudos to O'Malley (and Wherry) for tackling this, and doing it in an even-handed manner. I suggested a couple of weeks ago that the media was unlikely ever to do a full comparison of the leaders' past statements on torture with their current positions, together with a forum to discuss. It turns out I did O'Malley (and Macleans) an injustice.

    This is good journalism.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

      Aw, thanks. I just hope it lets us get beyond the he said/no he didn't say! debate, and into a conversation about the various positions. For the record, I've not found many past statements from Harper on the issue — either before or after becoming prime minister — but if anyone has better luck, feel free to post the links.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

        Kady….I do know there have been columns written but I do not believe that the media have put Iggy's feet to the fire sufficiently. He has made many statements about different issues i.e. Israel committed war crimes in their fight with Lebanon, the issue of torture etc. However, has there been a press conference where the media has pressed him pointedly and forced him to answer questions? The sense I get is he made his statements fudging the answer by saying that his comments were taken out of context etc. and of course he gave that interview in the friendly New York Times magazine. That's my issue. I want to see the media take Iggy on in a nationally televised press conference. This thing about asking for a press release ends up with the kind of comment that Fairbrother gave you. She dismissed you Kady in a very arrogant fashion. Is that acceptable to you as a serious journalist?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

          I didn't think her comment was any more dismissive than the one I got from Dimitri, to be honest. She answered the question. I understand that you think the entire press gallery should ignore the many *current* topics before us — from the economy to whether or not the Liberals intend to try to bring down the government — but honestly, I don't think it would be terribly responsible to heed your advice and devote all of our time to demanding that Ignatieff clarify his position on torture, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. There are, I would suggest, more important questions that he has to answer. As far as his views on torture go, at a certain point, you — I mean, the specific you, but also voters in general — are just going to have to make up your minds on whether you believe him, or not. I think we're getting close to the point, anyone for whom this is the deciding issue, as far as whether they will support him or not, has plenty of background information to make that call. Now, I understand why a Conservative partisan — not that I'm saying you *are* one, mind you — might be peeved that the press isn't spending all its time attacking Ignatieff using one of their chosen message tracks, but that's the way it goes, and if it's any comfort, I'm sure there are Liberal partisans who are fuming over the fact that we're not spending all of our time attacking the prime minister for his recent patronage appointments. berried, bien sur.
          From: IntenseDebate Notifications

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

          I didn't think her comment was any more dismissive than the one I got from Dimitri, to be honest. She answered the question.

          I understand that you think the entire press gallery should ignore the many *current* topics before us — from the economy to whether or not the Liberals intend to try to bring down the government — but honestly, I don't think it would be terribly responsible to heed your advice and devote all of our time to demanding that Ignatieff clarify his position on torture, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. There are, I would suggest, more important questions that he has to answer. As far as his views on torture go, at a certain point, you — I mean, the specific you, but also voters in general — are just going to have to make up your minds on whether you believe him, or not. I think we're getting close to the point, anyone for whom this is the deciding issue, as far as whether they will support him or not, has plenty of background information to make that call.

          Now, I understand why a Conservative partisan — not that I'm saying you *are* one, mind you — might be peeved that the press isn't spending all its time attacking Ignatieff using one of their chosen message tracks, but that's the way it goes, and if it's any comfort, I'm sure there are Liberal partisans who are fuming over the fact that we're not spending all of our time attacking the prime minister for his recent patronage appointments.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    I don't understand why it's somehow understandable that Ignatieff's position re torture before he entered politics seems markedly different from his current position.

    Either (a) he's seen some error in his prior reasoning, or (b) he's just posturing for votes. Absent a reasoned response to the question one tends to assume (b), no?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

      See, I wouldn't necessarily assume b, but I have a tendency not to be nearly cynical enough.

    • even flow

      Is it really that markedly different from his current position? I will give it another read but it appeared to me that Ignatieff kind of came to the same conclusion in both the opinions i read.

      Now if you are talking about Stephen Harper than i will agree with you. The newest position by Harper seems to directly contradict the position he held on torture in 2006-2007. He didn't seem to mind the idea of Canada sending people away to be tortured than so one has to conclude that his present position is caused by either of the two option you mentioned above.

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      Could you explain a bit how you see it as "markedly different" because I just don't see that at all.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        Actually it's not in the article O'Malley linked; that was an attempt in 2006 to clarify his earler position. The problematic pieces are in an interview with the Aust B.C., a passage from his book "The Lesser Evil" and a few bits from other articles such as "Lesser Evils" in the NYT, 2004 (see Wherry's roundup from Aug 20 for that one). He does seem to condone coercive interrogation (e.g. page 8), but it's not clear what he means by it although to his credit he does try to narrow down the ambiguity.

        I don't mean to say that Ignatieff's position has necessarily changed, or that his prior position was wrong. People use his statements to say that he approves of torture, but his statements are clearly a lot more nuanced than that, and rightly so. He categorically rejects "torture" but makes the obvious point that this is an ill-defined term, and the real problem is defining it.

        He's a smart guy and a good thinker. His arguments are well-considered. This is why I find his current one-line denial very disappointing and somewhat suspicious, as well as at odds with prior statements. Perhaps he's just trying to survive knowing that anything he says will be oversimplified by reporters who have little patience for the distinctions being made, and political opponents who want to use any dirt they can find. Or perhaps he's posturing. I don't know. I would very much like to find out.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        Actually it's not in the article O'Malley linked; that was an attempt in 2006 to clarify his earler position. The problematic pieces are in an interview with the Aust B.C., a passage from his book "The Lesser Evil" and a few bits from other articles such as "Lesser Evils" in the NYT, 2004 (see Wherry's roundup from Aug 20 for that one). He does seem to condone coercive interrogation (e.g. page 8), but it's not clear what he means by it. To his credit, he does try to narrow down the ambiguity.

        I don't mean to say that Ignatieff's position has necessarily changed, or that his prior position was wrong. People use his statements to say that he approves of torture, but his statements are clearly a lot more nuanced than that, and rightly so. He categorically rejects "torture" but makes the obvious point that this is an ill-defined term, and the real problem is defining it.

        He's a smart guy and a good thinker. His arguments are well-considered. This is why I find his current one-line denial very disappointing and somewhat suspicious, as well as at odds with prior statements. Perhaps he's just trying to survive knowing that anything he says will be oversimplified by reporters who have little patience for the distinctions being made, and political opponents who want to use any dirt they can find. Or perhaps he's posturing. I don't know. I would very much like to find out.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

          Another Hall of Fame post. If you're ever in Vancouver, let me buy you a beer.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            Second one's on me.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            Deal. The second round's on me.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    On a more general note, I'd be interested in what people think about torture in general (I think the article, while good journalism, completely missed these considerations). For example,

    (1) What constitutes torture? Discomfort? Physical pain? Mental anguish? This is not an easy answer, I think.
    (2) Why is torture, whatever it is, objectionable?
    (3) If it's objectionable, is that because it's wrong per se and therefore never justifiable regardless of potential benefits? Or is it just wrong under certain circumstances? Or is it not wrong at all, but merely impractical?

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    On a more general note, I'd be interested in what people think about torture in general (I think the article, while good journalism, completely missed these considerations). For example,

    (1) What constitutes torture? Physical pain? Mental anguish? Discomfort? This is not an easy answer, I think.
    (2) Why is torture, whatever it is, objectionable?
    (3) If it's objectionable, is that because it's wrong per se and therefore never justifiable regardless of potential benefits? Or is it just wrong under certain circumstances? Or is it not wrong at all, but merely impractical?

  • an online reader

    harpers speak on Canada's position on torture would have more credibility if the Arar affair had not happened . Settling a legal claim out of Court does not show we are willing to put our money where our mouth is . It seems to show we are willing to put our money out to keep our mouths out of Court's sworn testimony .

    Kady please ask each party leader if Arar and Canadian taxpayers should of had their day in Court as a supplement ?

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    On a more general note, I'd be interested in what people think about torture in general (I think the article, while good journalism, completely missed these considerations). For example,

    (1) What constitutes torture? Physical pain? Mental anguish? Discomfort? This is not an easy answer, I think.
    (2) Is torture, whatever it is, objectionable?
    (3) If it's objectionable, is that because it's wrong per se and therefore never justifiable regardless of potential benefits? Or is it just wrong under certain circumstances? Or is it not wrong at all, but merely impractical?
    (4) Do the Geneva Conventions even apply to fighters captured while disguised as civilians? Or to fighters who are deliberately targeting civilians?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

      (1) Torture is the deliberate use of physical pain and intense mental anguish to extract information. Reminding a prisoner that they are in serious trouble (standard procedure with people arrested on criminal charges, for instance) is not intense mental anguish; threatening to kill their parents is. The definition is not all that easy to formulate but it is definitely easy to recognise torture when we see it. It is also easy to tell when somebody is arguing legalistically, i.e. in bad faith, about definitions. (You are not doing so, I hasten to add.)
      (2) Yes, torture is always objectionable.
      (3) It is objectionable because it is wrong per se. One needn't go further than that. But if one cares to, it is also ineffective as a wide-sweep intelligence-gathering tool; you have to know what you're looking for. Note that you don't torture somebody for a few days if you're looking for intelligence (as opposed to trying to break their will, as with the recent Iranian show trials): you torture them for several weeks, essentially breaking their mind and spirit, until (you hope) they are no longer able to resist. Let's not kid around about how horrible that is.
      (4) The Third Geneva Convention does not apply to troops not in uniform, but the Fourth Geneva Convention does, because those ununiformed troops are therefore civilians. As part of that Convention, however, a person can be designated an Unlawful Combatant. Whether the troops are deliberately targeting civilians or not is neither here nor there, in terms of their rights. They can be prosecuted for doing so if captured, and attacked while engaged in the act itself. At no point can uniformed troops, civilians, or unlawful combatants be tortured.

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

      (1) To torture is to deliberately inflict physical pain and/or intense mental anguish. Reminding a prisoner that they are in serious trouble (standard procedure with people arrested on criminal charges, for instance) is not intense mental anguish; threatening to kill their parents is. The definition is not all that easy to formulate but it is definitely easy to recognise torture when we see it. It is also easy to tell when somebody is arguing legalistically, i.e. in bad faith, about definitions. (You are not doing so, I hasten to add.)
      (2) Yes, torture is always objectionable.
      (3) It is objectionable because it is wrong per se. One needn't go further than that. But if one cares to, it is also ineffective as a wide-sweep intelligence-gathering tool; you have to know what you're looking for. Note that you don't torture somebody for a few days if you're looking for intelligence (as opposed to trying to break their will, as with the recent Iranian show trials): you torture them for several weeks, essentially breaking their mind and spirit, until (you hope) they are no longer able to resist. Let's not kid around about how horrible that is.
      (4) The Third Geneva Convention does not apply to troops not in uniform, but the Fourth Geneva Convention does, because those ununiformed troops are therefore civilians. As part of that Convention, however, a person can be designated an Unlawful Combatant. Whether the troops are deliberately targeting civilians or not is neither here nor there, in terms of their rights. They can be prosecuted for doing so if captured, and attacked while engaged in the act itself. At no point can uniformed troops, civilians, or unlawful combatants be tortured.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        (1) Ok on the definition, and on the "we know it when we see it" point. However the definition must be consistent with all cases. Putting someone in a cell away from home and family for years can cause extreme mental anguish. Yet it's not torture. Making someone work all day can involve physical pain (e.g. denying food unless they cooperate). Is this torture? How about keeping someone awake for 36 hours at a time? Lots of grey here.

        (2) Agreed.

        (3) Agreed, but it's not enough to just say "torture is wrong per se." One needs to offer an argument for this. I've seen a good argument to this effect but it would not be acceptable to Canadians as a whole due to a premise many would reject. Do you know of a more palatable one?

        (4) This is an interesting point. In recent conflicts (i.e. the last 100 years) it has been common practice to try soldiers found disguised as civiliansas in a court-martial, and then shoot them. This was considered perfectly acceptable when not used as an excuse to shoot POW's escaping from their camp. The reasoning is that uniforms exist to protect civilians – a soldier who operates disguised as a civilian blurs the distinction and puts innocent people at risk.
        Recently this thinking has been disputed (because of the Bush administration and "unlawful combatants"). The argument now is that a prisoner is either a soldier or a civilian, and must therefore be treated as one or the other. Fair enough, but what about the prior argument that a soldier in hiding as a civilian puts everyone at risk and therefore deserves to be shot?

        Good answers btw. Well thought out.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        (1) Ok on the definition, and on the "we know it when we see it" point. However the definition must be consistent with all cases. Putting someone in a cell away from home and family for years can cause extreme mental anguish. Yet it's not torture. Making someone work all day can involve physical pain (e.g. denying food unless they cooperate). Is this torture? How about keeping someone awake for 36 hours at a time? Lots of grey here.

        (2) Agreed.

        (3) Agreed, but it's not enough to just say "torture is wrong per se." One needs to offer an argument for this. I've seen a good argument to this effect but it would not be acceptable to Canadians as a whole due to a premise many would reject. Do you know of a more palatable one?

        (4) This is an interesting point. In recent conflicts (i.e. the last 100 years) it has been common practice to try soldiers found disguised as civiliansas in a court-martial, and then shoot them. This was considered perfectly acceptable (when not abused – as in the Stalag Luft incident). The reasoning is that uniforms exist to protect civilians – a soldier who operates disguised as a civilian blurs the distinction and puts innocent people at risk.
        Recently this thinking has been disputed (because of the Bush administration and "unlawful combatants"). The argument now is that a prisoner is either a soldier or a civilian, and must therefore be treated as one or the other. Fair enough, but what about the prior argument that a soldier in hiding as a civilian puts everyone at risk and therefore deserves to be shot?

        Good answers btw. Well thought out.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        (1) Ok on the definition, and on the "we know it when we see it" point. However the definition must be consistent with all cases. Putting someone in a cell away from home and family for years can cause extreme mental anguish. Yet it's not torture. Making someone work all day can involve physical pain (e.g. denying food unless they cooperate). Is this torture? How about keeping someone awake for 36 hours at a time? Lots of grey here.

        (2) Agreed.

        (3) Agreed, but it's not enough to just say "torture is wrong per se." One needs to offer an argument for this. I've seen a good argument to this effect but it would not be acceptable to Canadians as a whole due to a premise many would reject. Do you know of a more palatable one?

        (4) This is an interesting point. In recent conflicts (i.e. the last 100 years) it has been common practice to try soldiers found disguised as civiliansas in a court-martial, and then shoot them. This was considered perfectly acceptable (when not abused – as in the Stalag Luft incident). The reasoning is that uniforms exist to protect civilians – a soldier who operates disguised as a civilian blurs the distinction and puts innocent people at risk.
        Recently this thinking has been disputed (because of the Bush administration and "unlawful combatants"). The argument now is that a prisoner is either a soldier or a civilian, and must therefore be treated as a POW or a non-combatant. Fair enough, but what about the prior argument that a soldier in hiding as a civilian puts everyone at risk and therefore deserves to be shot?

        Good answers btw. Well thought out.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        (1) Ok on the definition, and on the "we know it when we see it" point. However the definition must be consistent with all cases. Putting someone in a cell away from home and family for years can cause extreme mental anguish. Yet it's not torture. Making someone work all day can involve physical pain (e.g. denying food unless they cooperate). Is this torture? How about keeping someone awake for 36 hours at a time? Lots of grey here.

        (2) Agreed.

        (3) Agreed, but it's not enough to just say "torture is wrong per se." One needs to offer an argument for anything not self-evident. I've seen a good argument to this effect but it would not be acceptable to Canadians as a whole due to a premise many would reject. Do you know of a more palatable one?

        (4) This is an interesting point. In recent conflicts (i.e. the last 100 years) it has been common practice to try soldiers found disguised as civiliansas in a court-martial, and then shoot them. This was considered perfectly acceptable (when not abused – as in the Stalag Luft incident). The reasoning is that uniforms exist to protect civilians – a soldier who operates disguised as a civilian blurs the distinction and puts innocent people at risk.
        Recently this thinking has been disputed (because of the Bush administration and "unlawful combatants"). The argument now is that a prisoner is either a soldier or a civilian, and must therefore be treated as a POW or a non-combatant. Fair enough, but what about the prior argument that a soldier in hiding as a civilian puts everyone at risk and therefore deserves to be shot?

        Good answers btw. Well thought out.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

    Re: (4), I would be surprised if traditional, tribal militias in Afghanistan have ever worn insignia. Your remark on the Vietcong being the first armed force not to wear insignia "since the advent of Christianity" is not accurate. To take few random examples, mercenary bands in the 30 Years War did not always carry standards, the Highland army in 1745 wore no uniforms, the American militia in the American Revolution rarely did, and the Confederate army in the ACW was not issued uniforms until well after fighting had begun (replacements also were hard to come by, so by 1864 the whole Army of the Northern Virginia was effectively without uniforms). Those are just from the Western tradition and the first to spring to mind. There are far more examples of non-Western armies fighting without uniforms. While I appreciate your point that the purpose of uniforms is to create a category of people called "civilians," thus limiting the scope of war, it seems to me we Westerners are obliged to distinguish between the two categories even if our enemies are attempting to efface it. It's just too late for us to revert to the ethical codes of the Dark Ages.

    A couple of points:

    "Even allowing the ethical responsibility to reduce the cruelty of war that you mention, swift justice in a war zone relies on killing men who deliberately attack civilians or use them as human shields. Anything less leads to atrocities."

    You can't execute people without trial. You can fire on them in the heat of battle, but you can't disarm them and execute them afterwards. That's the law and at least in Canada we take it very seriously. Likewise, under the Geneva Conventions, people have to be convicted as spies before they can be shot as spies. But you are not allowed to sentence convicted spies to be tortured. I don't see a contradiction between not being allowed to lead people out to be shot but not shot, à la Dostoevsky, and being allowed to shoot them after a lawful trial: the former is torture, the latter is a legal procedure whose purpose is not punishment but the practical end of discouraging spying.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

      I don't know about about mercenary bands, but the Jacobites wore a piece of tartan (which is why it was later outlawed) and the Confederates always tried to wear grey, and always fought under their standard.

      The Minutemen are a harder case; you're right that they had no uniform and often fought from trees/fences rather than in set-piece open-field battles where combatants were clearly distinguishable. However, they never attacked from village housing, churches, hospitals, etc. for the reasons we've discussed.

      "… it seems to me we Westerners are obliged to distinguish between the two categories even if our enemies are attempting to efface it."
      Agreed. However, if an enemy tried to efface it he may be guilty of using civilians as human shields, thus meriting a court-martial and execution.

      "You can't execute people without trial."
      This is debatable (e.g. patrols operating behind enemy lines who can't take prisoners), but for the sake of argument let's accept it. This is why I was careful to list court-martial before execution. A court-martial is a trial.
      I'm afraid I don't see your ethical distinction between legally executing someone and pretending to execute someone. If the issue is legality, well, laws are mutable. And anyway if it's legal to shoot a spy, how can it not be legal to point a gun at said spy? Is that torture?

      We're in agreement about the American program, but this discussion is about torture in general.

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

      I don't know about about mercenary bands, but the Jacobites wore a piece of tartan (which is why it was later outlawed) and the Confederates always tried to wear grey, and always fought under the stars and bars.

      The Minutemen are a harder case; you're right that they had no uniform and often fought from trees/fences rather than in set-piece open-field battles where combatants were clearly distinguishable. However, they never attacked from village housing, churches, hospitals, etc. for the reasons we've discussed.

      In short, although these soldiers often had difficulty obtaining uniforms, they never (as a general rule) tried to make themselves indistinguishable from civilians. It was recognized that this would be unethical because of repercussions on the innocent. The Taliban operate on the opposite model: they want to be mistaken for civilians, and they want civilians to be mistaken for fighters. In this way civilians will be killed and the populace may become embittered against the Coalition. In short, they are using the civilians (and civilian deaths) as a means to their end. This is a war crime.

      "… it seems to me we Westerners are obliged to distinguish between the two categories even if our enemies are attempting to efface it."
      Agreed. However, if an enemy tried to efface it he may be guilty of using civilians as human shields, thus meriting a court-martial and execution.

      "You can't execute people without trial."
      This is debatable (e.g. patrols operating behind enemy lines who can't take prisoners), but for the sake of argument let's accept it. This is why I was careful to list court-martial before execution. A court-martial is a trial.
      I'm afraid I don't see your ethical distinction between legally executing someone and pretending to execute someone. If the issue is legality, well, laws are mutable. And anyway if it's legal to shoot a spy, how can it not be legal to point a gun at said spy? Is that torture?

      We're in agreement about the American program, but this discussion is about torture in general.

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