Comments on: Dick Cheney and the lessons of Watergate

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:44:55 +0000

"Gaunilon reminds me of Cheney –he appears smart but he has a Darth Vador side."

Appearances can be deceiving.

Don't underestimate the pow-ah of the Dark Side. (hhhhhh pah ….. hhhhhhhhhh pah …..)

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:44:32 +0000

"Gaunilon reminds me of Cheney –he appears smart but he has a Darth Vador side."

Appearances can be deceiving.

Don't underestimate the pow-ah of the Dark Side. (hhhhhh pah ….. hhhhhhhhhh pah …..)

By: Ed_Sweeney

Ed_Sweeney — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:28:34 +0000

Your "Cheney is a war criminal" rant belies your verdict on the debate. Clearly your mind was made up before you started reading.

By: Fosterbrooks

Fosterbrooks — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:36:18 +0000

An interesting post because we get to see what motivates a guy like Cheney. Always been perplexed on Cheney . Good on tv and seems very intelligent. But there is a dark side to him -one that seems to exploit the weaknesses of others-Ford was not a very bright man as is Bush . The brightest was Bush's father and he kept Cheney in check with James Baker and Brent Scowcroft . So on the basis of that I tend to side or lean to Jack Mitchell . Gaunilon reminds me of Cheney –he appears smart but he has a Darth Vador side.

By: Valerie Sanford

Valerie Sanford — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:17:33 +0000

Due to Cheney's medical record including three serious heart attacks, taxpayers had to provide him with a doctor and ambulance on hand 24/7 during his vice-presidency. So the Cheney For President 2012 is a non-starter, period.

By: Bernard

Bernard — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 03:22:38 +0000

Pardoning Nixon gave carte blanche to the Republican Party et al. to do the whole scam from Reagan on. No accountability nothing works. as has been attributed to St. Ronnie of GOP, "trust but verify". Nixon was but a foretaste.

By: janicepager

janicepager — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 02:38:54 +0000

And scf =Glen “the Dumb Ass“ Beck.

By: janicepager

janicepager — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 02:36:27 +0000

You are certainly kidding or JUST PLAIN STUPID. Carter?
Hating Obama is one thing but Cheney is a war criminal . Obama just wants ALL Americans to have health care .

By: scf

scf — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 02:21:32 +0000

Cheney worse than Nixon? There seems to be a lot of Cheney conspiracies around for no apparent reason. Carter was worse than both, soon to be joined by Obama.

By: scf

scf — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 02:19:35 +0000

Wow, I've got it!
Mitchell = Rosie O'Donnell

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 01:50:14 +0000

There may be genuine cases of atrocities, but this was not one. You posted it as "Blackwater mercenaries randomly shooting civilian Iraqis on the freeway". I watched it (with some shock) because I took your word for it, until I saw what the video actually showed.

Have the decency to admit you were seriously wrong. This was slanderous and misleading. It also does an injustice to Iraqis by reducing the credibility of those who provide real evidence for atrocities.

By: janicepager

janicepager — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 01:48:48 +0000

Wow!!Just got back from vacation and look up this blog and see Gaunilon vs. jack mitchell. Aclssic blogospere battle. Way to go . Very informative on both sides .MY VERDICT? jack mirchell wins because Cheney is a liar and should be tried as a war criminal . He violated the constitution and should be prosecuted.
But gaunilon is right to attack Clinton because he too broke the law . BUT , compared to Cheney , his transgession is a `misdemeanor“.
Liked this blog because I am a Watergate buff. Nixon was bad but Cheney is worse. Good job , Mitchell!

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 23:37:47 +0000

The sound you don't hear is me crying, TylerEzro. You and your pro-Cheney, pro-authoritarian, pro-torture breed can quite simply bite me.

By: TylerEzro

TylerEzro — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 23:26:00 +0000

I'm afraid my opinion of you has dropped quite a bit as well Jack.

By: SisyphusThis

SisyphusThis — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 22:51:08 +0000

Just before this incredibly shrinking
thread gets sucked into a black hole
somewhere …

http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2009/09/01/tomo/…

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:53:44 +0000

Likewise, though I can't say I ever thought better of you, Gaunilon.

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:53:01 +0000

This is pretty disappointing, Mitchell. I honestly thought better of you.

I don't think this conversation is worth continuing.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:50:26 +0000

I already said it was a mistake ("just something I googled").

Slander my ass, you don't even know the word. You were the one "slandering" the DHS further up this thread; where's your apology, bucko? Too busy harassing women at some abortion clinic to make time? Or praying to the Lord Jesus on the steps of Parliament? Or forgiving your enemies behind clenched teeth?

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:32:10 +0000

Have the decency to admit you were wrong. This was slanderous.

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:30:07 +0000

There may be genuine cases of atrocities, but this was not one. You posted it as "Blackwater mercenaries randomly shooting civilian Iraqis on the freeway".

Have the decency to admit you were wrong. This was slanderous.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:26:44 +0000

You're so full of sh*t it's pathetic. Now you're defending Blackwater mercenaries and accusing me of slandering the criminals who have been shooting civilians in a foreign country during an illegal war. Those great heroes. I'm embarrassed that you wasted all that time watching the video, it's just something I googled. The point is that Cheney fought his Iraq war with mercenaries who were not accountable to the Army in the usual way. Try and keep up.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:26:31 +0000

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:33:46 +0000

"Shortly after the 9/11 attacks, Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz create a secretive, ad hoc intelligence bureau within the Pentagon that they mockingly dub “The Cabal.” This small but influential group of neoconservatives is tasked with driving US foreign policy and intelligence reporting towards the goal of promoting the invasion of Iraq. To this end, the group—which later is folded into the slightly more official Office of Special Plans (OSP) (see 2002-2003)—gathers and interprets raw intelligence data for itself, refusing the participation of the experts in the CIA and DIA, and reporting, massaging, manipulating, and sometimes falsifying that information to suit their ends." "O'Neill also reported that, by the time of the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the plan for conquering Iraq had been developed and that Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld indeed urged just such an attack at the first National Security Council meeting convened to discuss how the U.S. should react to the disaster." That plan had already been worked out months before, in detail. These facts are all very well known by now. I have no time for your idiotic comparisons of Dick Cheney with Sarah Palin's children.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:33:32 +0000

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:06:41 +0000

Are you some kind of literalist, suddenly? I meant that 9/11 made Dick Cheney happy, not that he was literally grinning. And the proof that it made him happy is the fact that he immediately — as in, the morning after — used it to advance his "Project for a New American Century" in the most cynical possible way. Don't defend Dick Cheney, it makes you look soft-hearted. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary to be as harsh as possible.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:24:23 +0000

Real clever, john g. What's unclassy about that? Or was 9/11 so tragic a tragedy that we're cool with people cynically exploiting it? It's a fact that while you and I were still recoiling with shock and horror, Dick Cheney was planning to leverage public opinion into a war of choice with Iraq. There is nothing less classy than that.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:14:02 +0000

That's definitely big, given the Blackwater operates outside the military hierarchy, and that its CEO is a complete psychopath; I was thinking of Cheney's secret assassination squad, however: http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/10/lawmaker-w... This is the mentality that brought us this video (from 2002 or 2003, IIRC) of Blackwater mercenaries randomly shooting civilian Iraqis on the freeway: [youtube KZX1odzHdAo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZX1odzHdAo youtube]

By: john g

john g — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:00:56 +0000

Real clever, john g. What's unclassy about that?

The same kind of classlessness that suggests that the Palin children deserve all of the jokes, ridicule, and media circus that they've been put through "because of who their mother is", as you've previously stated.

Jack you're a smart guy, I love the little poems that you are able to whip off at a moment's notice, but there is something about Republicans that brings out something truly nasty in you. Suggesting that any American leader was grinning ear to ear about 3000 people dying is about as reprehensible as you can get.

By: SisyphusThis

SisyphusThis — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:51:29 +0000

Private armies ? http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0902/p02s01-usmi.ht...

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:26:39 +0000

Thanks, Be_rad, and thanks for mentioning it.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:25:09 +0000

QED.

By: Be_rad

Be_rad — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:16:29 +0000

Jack,

Again, I find it necessary to thank you for so eloquently articulating my gut instincts in such a way that I keep thinking "I wish I said that." I have followed this whole string and can only nod dumbly with nothing to add. Well done.

By: john g

john g — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:16:11 +0000

He must have been grinning from ear to ear the afternoon of 9/11

You stay classy Jack

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:18:13 +0000

Sleep well, Gaunilon!

I read it. Every single friggin' sentence in the report mentions "rightwing extremists." In other words, only insofar as any group is associated with rightwing extremists — and, you know, they really do exist, those rightwing extremists — are they even considered. E.g. "DHS/I&A assesses that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to exploit their skills and knowledge derived from military training and combat." That does not (!!) mean that every returning veteran will join a rightwing extremist organisation and come under suspicion. Honestly, how on earth do you want the DHS to describe rightwing extremist groups except in terms of their membership?

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:57:45 +0000

No, the report makes no such distinctions. All returning "disgruntled" veterans, all those who belong to anti-abortion groups, and all those who oppose the new administration are tarred. Read it. They're being proposed as targets for investigation because of their views, or (in the case of veterans) because of their experiences.

Anyhoo, somnus me vocat. Later, dude.

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:56:03 +0000

No, the report makes no such distinctions. All returning veterans, all those who belong to anti-abortion groups, and all those who oppose the new administration are tarred. Read it. They're being proposed as targets for investigation because of their views, or (in the case of veterans) because of their experiences.

Anyhoo, somnus me vocat. Later, dude.

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:10:58 +0000

People here are investigated for home-educating their children or belonging to pro-life groups, and prosecuted for saying things deemed potentially hateful. In the US the most recent report from the Dept. of Homeland Security suggested gathering information on returning veterans, those who disagree with abortion, and those who opposed Obama's election, deeming all such as potential right-wing extremists. This was distributed to police departments nationwide.

As to centralization, no, I was thinking more of the takeover of large swaths of industry.

"Goebbels-esque manipulation of the American media on Iraq"?? Are you serious? The news media spent 6 years hammering Bush on Iraq! (and Katrina, and the "jobless recovery") You'd think if Bush was manipulating the media they'd have been a little more favourable!

No, if you want a good example of government/media manipulation and control, try the CBC.

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:07:16 +0000

People here are investigated for home-educating their children or belonging to pro-life groups, and prosecuted for saying things deemed potentially hateful. In the US the most recent report from the Dept. of Homeland Security suggested gathering information on veterans, those who disagree with abortion, and those who opposed Obama's election because they are likely right-wing extremists. This was distributed to police departments nationwide.

As to centralization, no, I was thinking more of the takeover of large swaths of industry.

No, if you want a good example of government/media manipulation and control, try the CBC.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 10:24:38 +0000

He was apparently planning to impose martial law, i.e. use the army domestically to enforce his (unquestionable, unaccountable) executive orders. He had a private army of Special Forces that the CIA and Pentagon barely knew about and we hardly knew anything about. All googlable, I don't care if you believe me or not, it's credibly documented and he doesn't deny any of it. As to lying, give me a f*cking break. You're not a halfwit, Gaunilon, and not everybody who pretends to be the Lord's Anointed is so. You seem perfectly prepared to sell our society out to the first dictator who makes the right Christianist noises. I can hardly believe a thinking person could be so intellectually perverted as to defend Dick Cheney at this stage of the game.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:22:54 +0000

Well, talents, then. Seems to me the DHS is worried that a highly trained combat veteran — like, say, a demolition expert — just might be more dangerous as a member of an extremist organisation than the average extremist with his bag of manure and his can of diesel and his Diet Coke. Doesn't that seem likely to you, cleargreen? I mean, if I were putting together a violent rightwing extremist organisation, I'd much prefer a SEAL to some random guy who mistakenly thinks he knows what he's doing.

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:17:42 +0000

Sleep well, Gaunilon!

By: cleargreen

cleargreen — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:09:54 +0000

LMAO! Jack… bomb making abilities??? so every American that has a bag of lawn fertilizer in their garage and can buy a gallon of diesel has bomb making abilities, to use your quote… "What's your opinion of Timothy McVeigh? "

By: Gaunilon

Gaunilon — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:51:04 +0000

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:44:03 +0000

It's not "people who oppose abortion," it's potentially psycho killers who might well think Obama is the Antichrist and try to gun him down. Or bomb abortion clinics. I.e. violence. It's not "returning veterans," it's people who join violent groups and possess bomb-making abilities. The quiet little peacenik groups in rural California that were being "penetrated" by zealous sheriffs are not comparable; the groups in question here are the right-wing answer to the Weathermen. And, yes, I do think the FBI / CSIS should investigate such groups, if they pose a genuine danger to public safety. No one is being investigated for their views, they're being investigated (if at all) for their McVeighism (if any). You'd have to be half-mad to think the FBI would investigate people simply because they're anti-abortion!

By: Jack Mitchell

Jack Mitchell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:42:51 +0000

It's not "people who oppose abortion," it's potentially psycho killers who might well think Obama is the Antichrist and try to gun him down. Or bomb abortion clinics. I.e. violence. It's not "returning veterans," it's people who join violent groups and possess bomb-making abilities. The quite little peacenik groups in rural California that were being "penetrated" by zealous sheriffs are not comparable; the groups in question here are the right-wing answer to the Weathermen. And, yes, I do think the FBI / CSIS should investigate such groups, if they pose a genuine danger to public safety. You'd have to be half-mad to think the FBI would investigate people simply because they're anti-abortion!