UPDATED: Strategic Counsel – The sun's gone dim, the moon's turned black …

by kadyomalley on Tuesday, September 8, 2009 8:15am - 102 Comments

… for Ignatieff loved Quebec, and it didn’t love back*.

Or so says the latest Strategic Counsel poll for the Globe and Mail (and huge ITQudos to the Globe, by the way, for giving us all the background data), which pegs the spread between Team Red and Team Blue at five points.

Conservatives: 35 (+1)
Liberals: 30 (-2)
NDP: 14 (-1)
Bloc Quebecois: 12 (+2)
Greens: 9 (+1)

That works out to a three point jump for the Conservatives — which, we’re told, is largely due to a nasty tumble for the Liberals in Quebec, where the party has shed a staggering seven points, from 30% in July and August to just 23% now. Which puts it more than twenty points behind the Bloc Quebecois at 49%, the highest that party has polled since 2004 — and, if Norm Spector is right, those numbers could become even bleaker if the Bloc’s long-awaited ad campaign hits its mark.

The NDP’s national numbers, meanwhile, may have slid by only one percent, but the party’s slump in Ontario — from 14% to just 11% — really should be keeping Jack Layton up at night.

(Yes, ITQ is well aware that, with the exception of the national results,  all of the numbers hmmed over in the preceding paragraphs are within the margin of error. Hush.)

Meanwhile, did y’all see that the government seems to be ready to reform the employment insurance system after all? Quick, New Democrats, grab that life preserver and cling to it like a barnacle! That is, if there’s anything in the promised package that goes beyond the Conservative campaign pledge to extend buy-in privileges to the self-employed.  This could be your last chance to stave off potential electoral disaster Make Parliament Work! That is, as long as an actual piece of legislation — one that we can see and touch and FEEL — hits the House before that first non-confidence motion. Otherwise, it might look a little desperate to offer up your party’s unwavering support before you’ve even had the chance to read it. Although that didn’t stop you from doing the opposite with the budget, come to think of it.

Okay, commenters, it’s your turn now! What does it all mean?

*Apologies, of course, to Mrs. Parker.

UPDATE: Yikes, I completely forgot to mention the following (blame it on the morning grogs): Does anyone else find it a little bit … discomfiting when a respected pollster comes out with something like, “The NDP support is close to what it was in the last election. It’s 14,” when even in your post-waking haze, you immediately think to yourself, wait, that’s not right — that’s not even even close to being right! The NDP got, what, 18 percent last time around, didn’t they?

Especially when he then goes on to suggest that the Liberals “need to decrease that number to 10”? Because as far as ITQ knows, even in their most wild electoral fantasies, most of the Liberals that she knows harbour no secret hope of pushing the NDP vote below, say, 12 percent under fairy-tale perfect conditions. If they can pick up two points from the Dips and another two from the Greens, that would be cause to break out the champagne.

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  • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis

    I find it curious how Liberal partisans here seem more intent on explaining away all recent polling trends, and maybe even common sense, instead of taking a deep breath and asking if this recent chest-thumping was as wise as originally thought.

    I call it the kumbayah effect. They'll be singing it all the way to apparent disaster.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

      Wow.. the SC has one poll out that shows a 5% Cons lead based on a questionable drop in Quebec and a questionable rise of BQ support.. and we're explaining away the polls? That's called Conservative spin if I ever saw it Dennis.. every other poll has basically shown a dead heat.

  • http://secondthots.blogspot.com Dennis

    I've seen another article where the NDP is suggesting that the Tories work with the opposition to avoid an election. Either they're completely changing their tune, or maybe they're trying to separate themselves from Iggy's "all-in" gambit. Desperate, or tactical?

  • Mulletaur

    "The survey, conducted by Strategic Counsel for CTV and The Globe and Mail … "

    Wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more.

    Publish full methodology or be damned. The Evil Counsel. Huh.

    • Anon

      I have long wondered why the public does not demand that every time a poll is released, the polling company declares who is paying for the poll.

      • an online reader

        I have long wondered why political Parties & the sitting Government of the day pay so much for polling when all these polling results plus backup data are issued free on the internet ?

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

    NO other pollster has got the BQ anywhere near the level of support that Strategic Council claims they have… and as others have mentioned, this is the same polling outfit that put the Greens in the lead in Quebec at 26%.. and then dropped them to 5% 2 or 3 polls later. Even the NDP's numbers in Quebec are screwy: no other pollster has them in the single digits.. all of the others I've seen are in the teens. .. they're a good 8-10 % lower in SC"s poll.

    If SC's Quebec #'s were comparable to other recent pollsters results.. the national #'s would be a dead heat,.. so I'm dismissing this poll as an outlier – or more accurately, the Quebec portion of the poll that is skewing SC's national #'s.

    Bring on the pollster teams of Ekos, Decima and Nanos, and lets see what they say.

    (The fact that Donolo gets the NDP numbers wrong doesn't help their poll credibility either)

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

      I distrust most media polls, if not because they're often done on timelines and budgets that preclude a thorough examination and cleaning of the data collected, then because there isn't a media poll in Canada that collects sample sizes that allow confident analysis and projection of results to the broader population at the regional level. And by confident analysis, I mean a low-moderate margin of error, high sample size, and data distributions that suggest a balanced sample and poll.

      As to bringing on other pollster teams, well sure. But I'm even more wary of comparing web, standard telephone, robo-calling and cell phone calling methods in terms of the results they produce.

    • Anon

      Look at this. In Feb 2008, they apparently had the Greens tied with the NDP nationally at 12% :

      http://www.greenparty.ca/en/node/3944

      Maybe Tories and Greens respect this pollster more than others and answer their phones when they call? Libs should answer their phones — how rude not to and then complain.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

    I enjoy seeing the pattern. If a Poll shows is unflattering one side declares it must be an outlier and the people are are partisan hacks for the other side.

    Peter Donolo is a political strategist and communications advisor associated with the Liberal Party of Canada. From 1993 to 1999, he was the Director of Communications in the office of Prime Minister Jean Chrétien.

    He previously served as communications advisor to Toronto mayor Art Eggleton (1989-1991)and as Director of Communications in the Office of the Leader of the Opposition under Chrétien from 1991 to 1993. Donolo was in charge of communications for the Liberal's successful 1993 election campaign, a role he repeated in their re-election in 1997.

    From 1999 to 2001, Peter served as Canada's consul general in Milan, Italy. In 2001, he served as Senior Vice-President of Public Affairs at Air Canada.

    Donolo is also a well-known republican who has commented publicly about ending the monarchy of Canada. In a comment in the October 21, 2002, cover story of Maclean's, he referred to Canada as "behaving like a colonial outpost," believing the Queen of Canada to be foreign.[1]

    Since 2002 Donolo has been executive vice president and partner in The Strategic Counsel, a Toronto-based public opinion research and communications consulting firm.

    He is a director of the Toronto Board of Trade and the Toronto Italian Chamber of Commerce. He is a frequent contributor to The Globe and Mail daily newspaper and other publications.

    In 2003, Donolo co-chaired the successful Toronto mayoral campaign of David Miller.

    He is married to Mary Cruden. Together they have three children: Annie, Maggie and Michael.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Donolo

    I can clearly see his rightwing Neo-con reform evangelical roots too. It is always refreshing to watch the messenger get attacked.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/LoyalSubject LoyalSubject

    The Tory numbers in the West are out of whack. Look at the results from the three previous elections. The Conservatives are probably at 37 or 38% nationally when that wrinkle is ironed out.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

    I enjoy seeing the pattern. If a Poll shows is unflattering one side declares it must be an outlier and the people are are partisan hacks for the other side.

    Peter Donolo is a political strategist and communications advisor associated with the Liberal Party of Canada. From 1993 to 1999, he was the Director of Communications in the office of Prime Minister Jean Chrétien.

    He previously served as communications advisor to Toronto mayor Art Eggleton (1989-1991)and as Director of Communications in the Office of the Leader of the Opposition under Chrétien from 1991 to 1993. Donolo was in charge of communications for the Liberal's successful 1993 election campaign, a role he repeated in their re-election in 1997.

    From 1999 to 2001, Peter served as Canada's consul general in Milan, Italy. In 2001, he served as Senior Vice-President of Public Affairs at Air Canada.

    Donolo is also a well-known republican who has commented publicly about ending the monarchy of Canada. In a comment in the October 21, 2002, cover story of Maclean's, he referred to Canada as "behaving like a colonial outpost," believing the Queen of Canada to be foreign.[1]

    Since 2002 Donolo has been executive vice president and partner in The Strategic Counsel, a Toronto-based public opinion research and communications consulting firm.

    He is a director of the Toronto Board of Trade and the Toronto Italian Chamber of Commerce. He is a frequent contributor to The Globe and Mail daily newspaper and other publications.

    In 2003, Donolo co-chaired the successful Toronto mayoral campaign of David Miller.

    He is married to Mary Cruden. Together they have three children: Annie, Maggie and Michael.
    ” target=”_blank”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Donolo

    I can clearly see his rightwing Neo-con reform evangelical roots too. It is always refreshing to watch the messenger get attacked.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

    I enjoy seeing the pattern. If a Poll shows is unflattering one side declares it must be an outlier and the people are are partisan hacks for the other side.

    Peter Donolo is a political strategist and communications advisor associated with the Liberal Party of Canada. From 1993 to 1999, he was the Director of Communications in the office of Prime Minister Jean Chrétien.

    He previously served as communications advisor to Toronto mayor Art Eggleton (1989-1991)and as Director of Communications in the Office of the Leader of the Opposition under Chrétien from 1991 to 1993. Donolo was in charge of communications for the Liberal's successful 1993 election campaign, a role he repeated in their re-election in 1997.

    From 1999 to 2001, Peter served as Canada's consul general in Milan, Italy. In 2001, he served as Senior Vice-President of Public Affairs at Air Canada.

    Donolo is also a well-known republican who has commented publicly about ending the monarchy of Canada. In a comment in the October 21, 2002, cover story of Maclean's, he referred to Canada as "behaving like a colonial outpost," believing the Queen of Canada to be foreign.[1]

    Since 2002 Donolo has been executive vice president and partner in The Strategic Counsel, a Toronto-based public opinion research and communications consulting firm.

    He is a director of the Toronto Board of Trade and the Toronto Italian Chamber of Commerce. He is a frequent contributor to The Globe and Mail daily newspaper and other publications.

    In 2003, Donolo co-chaired the successful Toronto mayoral campaign of David Miller.

    He is married to Mary Cruden. Together they have three children: Annie, Maggie and Michael.
    ” target=”_blank”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Donolo

    I can clearly see his rightwing Neo-con reform evangelical roots too. It is always refreshing to watch the Pollster get attacked.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

      To be fair, I see *exactly* the same charge of bias made against allegedly "Liberal" pollsters by Conservatives. That said, Donolo absolutely deserves to be taken to task for suggesting that the NDP is close to what it was during the last election, but that has nothing to do with partisanship — it's just sloppy, considering that the 2008 results are listed right there in the report.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

    <a href="http://www.hilltimes.com/html/index.php?display=s…” target=”_blank”>http://www.hilltimes.com/html/index.php?display=s...

    Opinion poll CROP-La Presses 13 led in the province to 1003 guarantors between and August 23rd of this year grants 30 % of voting intentions in PLC, and the same percentage in the Block. During the last blow of sonde of CROP, from 11 till 18 June, the party of Michael Ignatieff harvested 35 % of voting intentions. That of Giles Duceppe remained comparatively stable: it had harvested 31 % of supports.
    <a href="http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canad…” target=”_blank”>http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canad...

    How does this internal Poll reflect the revised position of the Liberals taken in Sudbury?

    The next 2-4 weeks the Polls will reflect the views of Canadians regarding the decision of the Liberals to vote down every Bill put forward by the Government.

    Why do supporters of the Liberal Party protest and attack Pollsters when your party is percieved as responsible for grandstanding and making repeated threats of an election?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

      Why do supporters of the Conservatives protest and attack pollsters? Or supporters of the NDP, and the Green Party, and probably even the Bloc Quebecois? Because that's what partisans *do*. Is there some sort of bizarre blindness that makes it impossible for any of them to see that they're doing *exactly what they mock and dismiss in others*? Is there a cure? Because it's absolutely baffling to the rest of the nonblinkered world, where we assume, unless presented with clear evidence to the contrary, that every opinion poll is a snapshot in time, with some more accurate than others for reasons of methodology, or even just a happy confluence of statistical probability and reality.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

        Is there some sort of bizarre blindness that makes it impossible for any of them to see that they're doing *exactly what they mock and dismiss in others*?

        Kady, I'll repost a comment I made two weeks ago on the subject:

        Official Decision Tree for Partisan Hacks
        Section 17: How to respond to polls

        1. Do the poll results favour your side? If the answer is YES, go to #2. If the answer is NO, go to #3.

        2. Gloat!

        3. Accuse the polling firm of bias!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

          Thank you for reposting it. I was looking for that earlier.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

          But is there a cure? Please tell me science is working on it.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            Good news. Science is working on it!

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/08/the_…

            Not only did the brain manage to shut down distress through faulty reasoning, but it did so quickly … The neural circuits charged with regulation of emotional states seemed to recruit beliefs that eliminated the distress and conflict partisans had experienced when they confronted unpleasant realities. And this all seemed to happen with little involvement of the neural circuits normally involved in reasoning.

            But the political brain also did something we didn’t predict.

            Once partisans had found a way to reason to false conclusions, not only did neural circuits involved in negative emotions turn off, but circuits involved in positive emotions turned on. The partisan brain didn’t seem satisfied in just feeling better. It worked overtime to feel good, activating reward circuits that give partisans a jolt of positive reinforcement for their biased reasoning.

            These reward circuits overlap substantially with those activated when drug addicts get their “fix,” giving new meaning to the term "political junkie"…

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/KadyITQ KadyITQ

            Hurray for science! Although – does this mean that my dream of having a lively, freewheeling political debate amongst partisans (and nonpartisans) of all kinds is destined to be unfulfilled?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            Not at all. Keep the dream alive!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

        I must admit I am getting a good laugh at posters debating for another election. Last year the opposition were hysterical about the $ 300 million wasted on an election and now it is a great stimulus program.

        I could go on but it is much more enjoyable watching each other camp accusing each other for being hypocritical.

  • 8^)

    Kady – don't know if you read the comments, but heard you on Daybreak (CBC Radio 1 – Montreal) the other day.

    You were saying that you couldn't understand why at the start of a campaign there seems to be an inexplicable amount of attention given to the campaign aircraft.

    You said something to the effect of 'we seem to talk an awful lot about it.' – the implication is that the public is greatly interested in the topic.

    Well it is pretty easily explained. Reporters are interested, since they have to ride around on them, and reporters love to talk about nothing more than reporters.

    This makes reporters think that because they're interested, real humans must! be! informed!

    We don't care. Not about the plane, the quality of the lunch, the cramped quarters on the bus…or at least I don't, so I assume nobody else does either (heh).

    Here endeth the lesson.

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