It took a while but Section 13 is dead

This month, with Judge Hadjis’s Marc Lemire decision, the wheels fell off the CHRC racket

by Mark Steyn on Thursday, September 17, 2009 7:40am - 161 Comments

090910_steyn
“Nice to see you all,” said Athanasios Hadjis, the Canadian “Human Rights” Tribunal’s vice-chair (i.e., judge), as he surveyed his courtroom in Ottawa last year. “More of an interest than there was before.”

Indeed. The packed benches that greeted him were a rare sight at a CHRT trial, and especially at the Marc Lemire trial, where the prosecutors—the Canadian “Human Rights” Commission—had demanded that everyone other than them be banned from the courtroom, including the defendant, who would be graciously permitted to watch proceedings by video. That doesn’t sound quite like the right to confront your accuser in open court. But hey, given all the other safeguards of Canada’s judicial inheritance the Dominion’s “human rights” regime trashes, what’s one more faggot on the bonfire of liberties?

Judge Hadjis was, by that stage, in the fifth year of the Canadian state’s investigation of Marc Lemire, webmaster of freedomsite.org and accused Section 13 hate-monger, and appeared from my seat in court anxious to throw the book at him. “We’re done,” he said at several points during the day, swatting aside some intervention or other. Jurisprudentially, Judge Hadjis was outta there and eager to add Mr. Lemire’s scalp to the CHRT’s trophy room. In that long ago spring of 2008, the rules were very simple: under the Canadian “Human Rights” Tribunal, to be accused of a Section 13 thought crime was to be convicted. In the entire history of Section 13, every defendant brought before the CHRT had been found guilty. It would be unfair to compare this to the justice systems of Saddam Hussein or Pol Pot, since even those eminent jurists felt obliged to let someone off once in a while just for appearances’ sake. Only in Canada was a 100 per cent conviction rate merely reassuring proof of the Dominion’s humane progressive commitment to “human rights.”

This month the wheels fell off the racket. On Sept. 2, Athanasios Hadjis in effect acquitted Marc Lemire of all charges but one. This unprecedented verdict is, as Joseph Brean reported in the National Post, “the first major failure of Section 13(i)” in its history. Was Mr. Lemire the beneficiary of a unique dispensation from the CHRT? No. Judge Hadjis pronounced the accused guilty of a Section 13 infringement on one narrow charge—an Internet post headlined “AIDS Secrets” that (in David Warren’s words) “went on rather tendentiously about blacks and homosexuals” and was written by someone other than Mr. Lemire. Nevertheless, the court declined to punish the defendant even for this infraction on the following grounds:

“I have also concluded that s. 13(1) in conjunction with ss. 54(1) and (1.1) are inconsistent with s. 2(b) of the Charter, which guarantees the freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression. The restriction imposed by these provisions is not a reasonable limit within the meaning of s. 1 of the Charter.”

When this magazine’s difficulties with Section 13 began in late 2007, received opinion took refuge in the weasel formulation that “of course we all believe in freedom of speech but it’s a question of striking a balance, drawing a line,” and other claptrap intended to appeal to Canadians’ sense of their own moderation. What a difference two years makes. As the Lemire decision demonstrates, today Section 13 has no friends other than its small band of direct beneficiaries such as serial plaintiff (and former CHRC employee) Richard Warman, Canada’s self-appointed Hatefinder-General. “Section 13 isn’t salvageable,” declared . . . well, go on, guess. Steyn? Ezra Levant? Some right-wing nut in the National Post? No, it was Canada’s biggest-selling newspaper and house organ of every moth-eaten Trudeaupian piety, the Toronto Star. This is a long campaign to restore ancient liberties that Canada gave up very carelessly. But, when statist social engineers have lost the Toronto Star, you know the wind’s blowing your way.

What explains Judge Hadjis’s belated conversion to the constitutional virtues of free speech? Less than two years ago, he thought nothing of imposing a fine and a lifetime speech ban on Jessica Beaumont, plus a $3,000 award to Richard Warman as his finder’s fee, for “hate speech” in the same general territory as Mr. Lemire’s was alleged to be. Why is Ms. Beaumont on a CHRT leash for life and Mr. Lemire free to hate again?

Er, well, um . . . As I often observed last year, under the poorly drafted and ideologically interpreted British Columbia “Human Rights” Code, Maclean’s and I were undoubtedly guilty. In fact, after the verdict Kenneth Whyte, this magazine’s head honcho, and I had a faintly surreal conversation discussing whether or not to appeal the acquittal: that’s how nutty Canadian justice is in the 21st century.

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  • Andrew (not P or C)

    I don't usually agree with Steyn, but about the HRCs I'm afraid he is bang on. If people think this is a problem, it should go through real courts, not these kangaroo courts.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

      I don't usually agree with Steyn…

      Why start now. He's repeatedly demonstrated he lives in a parallel universe so what makes you think it's different this time.

      • cold canadian

        His parallel universe rubs elbows with my entirely real universe. I would rather take the slings of verbal (or written) abuse than have the government determine that I am too weak to hear it or too stupid to not be taken in by it. I am a Canadian citizen, not a victim.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/DanielShays DanielShays

        Steyn's universe is the universe in which one does not require the permission of bureaucrats with tenure to speak freely.That should be the real universe and its quite likely yours that should be the parallel one

        • Anon

          Speak freely? You mean lie freely.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/DanielShays DanielShays

            You have apparently spent far too much time with other liberal moon bats and this lost time causes you to embarrass yourself in public forums with foolish non sequiters.It is only in your universe that everyone lies freely all of the time.And, by the way, posting anonymously only makes you appear sillier, difficult as that may be

          • American

            U know Anon it takes a grown-up to live in a free society. Now u may not like Steyn, and he may believe that you should always wear a hockey helmet outdoors to protect yourself, but your both entitled to your opinions. Its called freedom. It can be messy, dirty, rough, and sometimes very offensive, but at the end of the day its something we should all respect and believe is neccessary for a healthy, free society.

            By the way, u strike me as the kind of puesdo-intellectual poop-head who believes "All animals are equal; but some animals are MORE EQUAL than others"

            Thats from Animal Farm. Its a book. You know, a book, the things people like you use for firewood.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/chesterar chesterar

            As one who follows Mr Steyn and intelligent enough to know whether he's lying or not, I'm here to say I know him not to lie.

          • Mike T.

            wrong on all counts, my poor little fool.

          • aelfheld

            Please provide evidence of Mr. Steyn's supposed lies.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/mendelbot mendelbot

          I'm pretty sure the relation of parallelism is commutative. If A is Parallel to B then B is Parallel to A… Metaphorically speaking.

      • DPT

        How witty, do you have real response to his argument? Or are you in favour of Jennifer reducing your right to free speech to a syllabus of what she deems correct. It`s great as long as the people being stepped on are those with whom you disagree. As they say in all the freespeechers blogs, first they came for…. etc.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/AJR79 AJR79

        I am offended by your statement.

        Talk like that should be outlawed….

  • ExGrunt

    This war is far from over but a serious blow has been struck to the disgusting likes of Lynch, Warman and company.

    Any one who supports 13.1 should be utterly ashamed of themselves. Guilty until proven innocent, the truth is not a defense, free speech is an American concept, Christian pastors given lifetime speech bans for making "disparaging" remarks. Muslim Imams who call for the murder of Jews, homosexuals and women – let go.

    Hundreds of millions flushed down the toilet by a revolting agency. Utterly disgusting !!!!!!!!!

    I ask Canadians this – what "rules" should we as Canadians be following: the very cut & dried indications of the Canadian Constitution and Canadian law, or the vague outlines of section 13.1 of the Canadian Human Rights Code? The rights to freedom of speech,expression, and religion are all in great danger as a result of this particular section in a code that does not even deign to allow itself to be governed by the standard rules of law. It simply runs rampant over our rights as Canadians, saying that it is "protecting" the rights of "other" Canadians. Aren't we all entitled to our opinions? Aren't we all entitled to the same rights?

  • guest

    Congratulations Mark on successfully forcing this grievous and mutated star chamber to call its own end! Thanks to you and MacLeans for your continued efforts to protect free speech in Canada thereby saving the nation from politically-correcting itself into a simpering oblivion. Canada and this example to western nations owe you for protecting their basic freedoms.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/mendelbot mendelbot

      I think you're mistaken. It is an act of survival by a multimillion dollar government agency which realized section 13 was a millstone for their necks. The Human Rights Industry has not yet been housebroken to democracy.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

    Great article Mr. Steyn. I just hope that you, Ezra and the rest don't let up just because Lemire is finished. You guys have got to keep the spotlight on these creeps, and keep hammering them until the political will to abolish s.13 is achieved. Keep up the good fight.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thomas_L Thomas_L

    8 people and they all work for the Roos! Hilarious. Great article Mark. Bob McClelland, official representative from "the real world" disagrees so you must have hit the nail right on the head since the entire CHRC racket is otherworldly.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    Unfortunately Hadjis and the HRT will use this belated decision in an attempt to preserve their own dwindling credibility. Sort of a "yes, Section 13 was bad, and perhaps mistakes were made, but look! The system works!" defense.

    I don't just want Section 13 struck, I want every "Human Rights" Commission and the Human Rights Tribunal abolished. I want their members fired from Canadian public service with no possibility of reinstatement. And I want to see every free Canadian who was bankrupted by these tools rehabilitated at their personal expense.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    Unfortunately Hadjis and the HRT will use this belated decision in an attempt to preserve their own dwindling credibility. Sort of a "yes, Section 13 was bad, and perhaps mistakes were made, but look! The system works!" defense.

    I don't just want Section 13 struck, I want every "Human Rights" Commission and the "Human Rights" Tribunal abolished. I want their members fired from Canadian public service with no possibility of reinstatement. And I want to see every free Canadian who was bankrupted by these tools rehabilitated at their personal expense.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

      I would also petition the Canadian public service to eliminate "scare quotes" from the arsenal of juvenile and apparently unedited writers such as "Mark Steyn."

      Until then, he's merely "Mark Steyn" to me. Ooga booga!

    • marlowe anderson

      Right on! The dragon needs to be slain; not just wounded.

  • Anon

    Bilious Stain and his bilious sycophants defaming everyone who doesn't agree with them

    Same old, same old.

    • Paul Huedepohl

      Pot, meet kettle.
      Another withering intellectual counterblow by our HRC overlords. Thanks for coming out anon.

      • Anon

        "Another withering intellectual counterblow by our HRC overlords."

        Oh, and paranoid. Bilious and paranoid.

    • aelfheld

      How is pointing out the depredations of the HRCs defamatory?

      • Anon

        This article in this very rag, in which Stain accuses an HRC worker by name of engaging in criminal activities, is what I mean by defamatory. Cause it's, y'know…libel.

        http://www.macleans.ca/canada/opinions/article.js…

        • Colin

          The referenced criminal activities were in the hearing transcript as a matter of public record.

          • Anon

            And that makes them less libellous, how?

        • john

          Hi Richard…:)…..the CHRC staff were caught impersonating (that means you) bloggers to pump up their cases you serial twit.

        • Paul Huedepohl

          It's only libel if untrue. I thought you were a lawyer Richard!

        • Michael

          Truth cannot be libelous

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

            Ah yes, but truth can expose someone to ridicule, maybe even hatred, so we'd better be careful, and maybe outlaw it before someone's feelings might be susceptible to one day, maybe, getting hurt. Maybe we should set up fines for this, too. Oh, but let's not trouble ourselves with the inflexible justice system with rules of evidence and such silliness. Maybe we could set up some tribunals and investigators and case workers to try to get the miscreants to genuflect and pony up thousands of bucks in penalties before we even have a hearing. Yeah, that sounds wonderful…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

    Social engineering, gee, what could go wrong with that? Its funny how vehemently those who would seek to protect us from Nazism so strongly defend their right to use thought-police tactics.

  • gofigure

    bilious anon and his bilious sycophants defaming everyone who doesn't agree with them

  • Dakota

    The sooner the HRC and its politically correct Gestapo are killed off the better. This Liberal experiment has become a Frankenstein monster and a danger to personal freedoms. It is nothing more then a tool of religious and political fanatics to silence their opponents and quash debate and opinions that don’t conform.

    • Anon

      Now, now. Threatening extermination is not acceptable in pubic discourse.

      • Dakota

        Call the HRC

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/janicemaerose janicemaerose

      An HRC, not necessarily this HRC, could still serve a useful purpose to put some checks and balances on potential human rights issues.

  • John West

    Everything that is wrong with our society is a result of Liberalism. End of story.

    "No one has a good enough memory to be a successful liar" Abe Lincoln.
    Mark Steyn is a very successful man. He is selling truth with humor. He is the best. Like it or not he is one our own. Although he has the good sense not to live in this unfree society.

    • John D

      Did Liberalism make your face do that?

    • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

      I don't know how many times I have to tell people this: learn what Liberalism is. Mill's On Liberty gives a hearty defense of Freedom of Speech. The justification for not interfering with free speech is almost always a liberal one.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        I think he means Leftism, which modern leftists like to conflate with classical liberalism.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/AtheistCon AtheistCon

        Word games will get you nowhere. Everyone knows that 'liberalism' is anti-liberal, and 'conservatism' is liberal. The conservative today argues for individual freedoms, less government regulation, and so forth. The 'liberal' argues for the power of the state, restrictions to free speech, and so forth. Just like everything else wrong in the world, 'liberals' brought this situation about.

        • http://gapingwhole.wordpress.com/ Em.

          But if conservatism is liberal, and liberals are responsible for everything that's wrong with society, than conservatism is responsible for everything that is wrong with society. Just saying.

          Actual theories of liberalism advocate separation of private and public spheres aimed and increasing individual liberty (including freedom of speech). So, your "liberals" may or may not be to blame, but they don't really advocate liberalism.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/AtheistCon AtheistCon

            Congratulations, that's the dumbest word game I've ever seen. Thanks for playing.

            "Actual theories of liberalism"

            This sounds so much like the people who argue that "real Communism isn't like what we see in every place it's tried". If you don't like what is currently called 'liberalism', there's only one group to blame for that: so-called 'liberals'. You should read a little. Hayward's first volume of "The Age of Reagan" gives a great account of the destruction of real liberalism by far-left wackos around 1968.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/thekrob thekrob

          While I don't want to take a position on this liberalism/conservatism argument (which doesn't seem too productive anyhow – especially is someone points out that neither are static monolithic viewpoints, but groups of roughly aligned socio-political thinkers), I should point out that you have not made any case to suggest that it is an a priori bad thing that the state have oodles of power, that there be restrictions on free speech or "so forth." Nor is there an argument to support your notion that less government regulation or unrestrained freedoms is best for Canadians.

          Uncritical moralizing does no one any good. You might be right, but you will have to prove it, or at the very least argue it. (note that I have the same criticism for your 'liberal' antagonists).

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/AtheistCon AtheistCon

            I should point out that you have not made any case to suggest that it is an a priori bad thing that terrorist fly planes into buildings, or that women be raped in the streets, or that children follow a cult figure and swallow poisoned Kool-Ade. Nor is there an argument that safety from such things is best for Americans – or anyon else. I mean, it MIGHT be best, but gee Wally, you haven't PROVEN it.

            The relativist slide is such a fun playground toy. With all that 'education' I imagine you have a lot of fun mopping floors.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/AtheistCon AtheistCon

            I should point out that you have not made any case to suggest that it is an a priori bad thing that terrorist fly planes into buildings, or that women be raped in the streets, or that children follow a cult figure and swallow poisoned Kool-Ade. Nor is there an argument that safety from such things is best for Americans – or anyone else. I mean, it MIGHT be best, but gee Wally, you haven't PROVEN it.

            The relativist slide is such a fun playground toy. With all that 'education' I imagine you have a lot of fun mopping floors.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/thekrob thekrob

            *sigh*

            Ok, if you find proving arguable points too taxing, perhaps you will at least provide some rationale as to why smaller governments are better than bigger ones. Or why regulation is a bad thing.

            I'll go first. Terrorist are bad because they kill innocent people – which is generally bad. Women should not be raped because it is a degrading and horrific experienced – which we can agree is also bad. Poison Kool-ade is bad becasue it kills people – which we agree is bad.

            See, that wasn't so hard. Now, back to mopping.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/AtheistCon AtheistCon

            Smaller governments are better than big ones because big governments are more prone to human abuse and all its manifestations. Free societies provide a greater path to human betterment.

            Regulation is not a bad thing. Excessive regulation is. Because regulation is a diminishing-returns game: the more heavily you regulate something, the more people will try to work around regulation, so you have to keep plugging holes as people make more of them. This is clearly seen in the tax code: crack down on taxes, raise tax levels, and you get less revenue.

            The reason it is ridiculous to ask these questions is that the answers are self-evident. It is only blind belief in the power of 'regulators' and 'government' that causes people to ever doubt the answers. That belief only comes through indoctrination. People are not born with the innate desire to turn themselves over to a regulatory authority. Thus, my belief system is natural. Yours is artificial and learned.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/thekrob thekrob

            *sigh*

            Ok, if you find proving arguable points too taxing, perhaps you will at least provide some rationale as to why smaller governments are better than bigger ones. Or why regulation is a bad thing.

            I'll go first. Terrorist are bad because they kill innocent people – which is generally bad. Women should not be raped because it is a degrading and horrific experience – which we can agree is also bad. Poison Kool-ade is bad because it kills people – which we agree is bad.

            See, that wasn't so hard. Now, back to mopping.

      • Anon

        I'm sure Mill did not anticipate a thoroughly degraded elite and the mass media they control like the one we have now that thinks propaganda, lying, hate is the most sophisticated manifestation of freedom expression.

        I'm sure Mills would have nothing good to say about Mark Stain, for example.

  • John West

    [youtube m1VbGcaVvFM&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1VbGcaVvFM&fe... youtube]

    You need to know this.

    • George

      John, I think what that guy says is baloney. The US debt can be fixed in no time by the following simple method:

      1. Introduce a 10% or even 20% consumer tax, such as GST, like Canada and some some European countrie do.
      2. Introduce a large tax on gasoline, so that its price would be similar to what we pay in Canada of what people pay in Europe.
      3. Raise substantially income taxes on everyone making more than $ 50,000 and escalating to 98% for those making millions, like they do in Scandinavian countries.
      4. Abandon all the totally useless wars and all the military bases (some 200 of them) throughout the world.

      In other words, stop being an Empire and become a normal country, like the other western countries.

      Voila. And the American debt will decline and eventually may even be eliminated entirely.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/thekrob thekrob

    Ok, so I have two issues.

    1. I find myself agreeing with Mr. Steyn's standpoint on this issue. The related tenets of free speech and of rule of law are – in my view – important to preserve. (Before the pitchforks come out, I must note that free speech does have its reasonable limits – no one should be yelling "Fire!" in a crowed theatre). However, I find it difficult to align myself with the caustic tone taken to the issue. It does no one any good to muddy a perfectly reasonable debate with polarizing hyperbole (dressing up as Nazis is rarely kinky by the way). It does, however, sell papers (or magazines, or website advertisement). As such, let us all try to refrain from petulant name-calling and focus on the issues at hand.

    2. There is a presumption of absolute morality contain in this piece and its subsequent commentary. The presumption is that we all want to live in a violently "free" society. Many thinkers (from Aristotle to Popper) have pointed out that true debate is often confrontational (though it's best if it remains civil), but others have placed emphasis on harmony (e.g. Confucius, Cicero). As such, one can think of a spectrum: on one end completely open debate with all the strife and paralysis that such debate can lead to (see the US heathcare debate as an example) and on the other end a harmonious society with little positive individual freedom (i.e. the freedom to do various things). Countries like Malaysia, with several vastly different ethnic/religious groups often trend towards harmony (to reduce he risk of civil unrest); whereas, Western democracies have tended to privilege freedom. In this way, we can see that "living in a free society" is not an a priori right, nor is it anything like an absolute moral good. Rather, "free societies" are the outcomes of specific historical circumstances and should be evaluated on their merits (and flaws). If on balance, we as a people decide that we should be allow to voice hateful speech (because our society is presumably strong enough to handle the ensuing 'beef'), then great. But it doesn't start that way and we must have a good reason for wanting it to remain this way.

  • cold canadian

    Some good points, but remember, it is perfectly legal to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, if the theatre is on fire. One of the most frustrating aspects of the HRC process is that truth is no defence. In a court of law, it is.

    As to your second point, I agree that we have determined these rules as a society, but as citizens, we must do it democratically. We have done so, and our system of law has evolved with our society. These tribunals both skirt the law, and deny its protections. And this was NOT done by elected officials.

    I do not find it difficult to align myself with his caustic tone, because the message rings so true. For those of us who are adamant about free speech, we have had to hold our noses and defend the rights of people that make Steyn look like a girl scout. You have to really believe in your position if you believe that people you absolutely hate should have the same rights as you do.

    • Anon

      "For those of us who are adamant about free speech, we have had to hold our noses and defend the rights of people that make Steyn look like a girl scout."

      Also, being so noble and principled permits you to avoid challenging these people as well. That's something the targets of the hate speech have to do all the time.

      And you wonder why they don't particularly care about your self-righteous proclamations about free speech. It's never helped them. No amount of free speech absolutism has ever stopped any lynchings or gay bashings or any of the hate-based violence that occurs daily in that bastion of free expression, the USA, you'll do well to remember.

      • cold canadian

        "Also, being so noble and principled permits you to avoid challenging these people as well. That's something the targets of the hate speech have to do all the time. "

        Being a free speech advocate in no way precludes you from challenging these people. I think Mark Lemire is a tool, and I have no problem telling him such, and I have. I also actively espouse a point of view that is antithetical to his. And don't think for one moment that I have not been the target of hate speech. I am not, however a victim of hate speech. There is a difference.

        "No amount of free speech absolutism has ever stopped any lynchings or gay bashings or any of the hate-based violence that occurs daily in that bastion of free expression, the USA, you'll do well to remember."

        Free speech was not meant to stop it. Laws with active enforcement are designed for that. What free speech has done is change the mindset of generations as to what is acceptable behavior. And in fact, what is legally allowed.

      • R.B. Glennie

        *And you wonder why they don't particularly care about your self-righteous proclamations about free speech. It's never helped them. No amount of free speech absolutism has ever stopped any lynchings or gay bashings or any of the hate-based violence that occurs daily in that bastion of free expression, the USA, you'll do well to remember. *

        Another HRC employee I guess, spouting the party talking points.

        so, `anon' `lynchings' occur DAILY in the U.S.? I'm not sure if it's richard Warman we have here, or Hedy Fry.

        No wonder you're posting `anon'.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/bananapatch bananapatch

        I'm just curious. When you make up a fact, how long does it take for you to actually come to believe that it's true? Or is it a spontaneous process? For example, when you refer to "daily lynchings and gay-bashing" — which of course is nonsense — do you believe that this happens *before* you write it down, or do you *come* to believe it later?

        I'm sure you're aware that there are people who need to manufacture fake hate crimes, ahem Tawana Brawley cough cough, in order to reconcile their insane beliefs with reality, which just refuses to co-operate. Do you fake hate crimes? Or do you so honestly and truly believe that they happen with such incredible regularity that you don't think you have to? If so I'd love a link to some news article somewhere detailing the four lynchings/gay bashings that occurred over the last four days.

        All kidding aside, you're a pathetic idiot.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/thekrob thekrob

      Two other small things:

      1. Recall that i agree with Mr. Steyn's position on the HRC (note that the acronym CHRC is used by several Canadian institutions). As such, I have no objection to pointing out the clear deficiencies in its procedures, nor would I quibble with argument that point to the clear skirting of the rule of law. Rather, my point was that freedom of speech is not a natural good. It is a choice – with good bits and bad bits. As a consequence, factors limiting freedom of speech (like the HRC) are not natural evils, they also are choices – with good bits and bad bits. And while this choice is, in part, historical we continue to make it (if we think critically enough).

      2. re antagonism: Mr. Steyn and subsequent commentors (on both sides) do not enrich any debate or point of view with unconsidered remarks or swift generalizations. Indeed, part of granting people you detest equal rights is learning to reign in one's own tendencies towards fractious outbursts. Caustic tones, on the other hand, are very amusing and are good for rallying people to a cause (and as I mentioned, selling magazines). However, as with most rhetorical devices, they're not too good for considered debate (such as the one in which we are now engaged).

      • cold canadian

        2. re: Antagonism: Perhaps you are right about not being good for considered debate, but on the other hand, here we are having considered debate as a result of it.

        I don't think, however we should underestimate the power of rallying people to a cause. Depending on your motive for the speech, maybe that is an end in itself. I would guess that after what Steyn has been through with the HRC's, he like Ezra Levant, is beyond debating the issue. They have issued rallying calls, and like minded people (like myself) have answered.

  • john

    annon….otherwise known as Richard Warman….

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

      Really? I thought RW was busy posting white supremacist bile under various pseudonyms…

  • Rabbit

    "Violently free society". "Absolute morality." What odd turns of phrase.

    Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that expression is a fundamental freedom. Granted it does allow for limited exceptions, but it's obvious from the charter that freedom of expression is not aspirational, but meant to form part of the bedrock of Canadians' legal rights. How have we come to forget that?

    At any rate, you seem to think that by limiting expression one can make debate more harmonious and less confrontational. This is an iffy assumption. If people want to have at 'er, they'll find a way. If certain statements are forbidden, they'll use others that everyone understands to mean the same thing. Speech becomes less forthright but remains every bit as vitriolic. Indeed, limitation speech could INCREASE the level of spite, for everything said can be translated as code for something else

    A bad thing about limiting "hateful" speech is that someone has to do decide what's hateful. As is demonstrated very day on the political blogs, hateful speech is too often defined to be what you disagree with. Using the U.S. as an example, even just strong disagreement with proposed legislation can be construed as racism.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

      Precisely!
      thekrob starts with the premise that we do not (or should not) have free speech, that it is a mediated principle. That is fundamentally wrong. We begin with the premise of free speech in Canada, not just per the Charter, but consistent with our liberal democratic history and nature.

    • Maureen

      I don't want debate to be polite and harmonious – if it is then it is unlikely that anything of substance will be discussed or resolved and I have no interest in wasting my time listening to people being polite. If I wanted that I would go to the afternoon tea that the seniors home down the street holds every Saturday – all very civilized but boring and in no way interesting. I want people to debate ideas with passion and that will often lead to comments that people don't want to hear. I'm a trainer helping employees learn new ways of doing things – one of my bosses was very upset to read some end of day comments from participants in a course because they were negative stating that they didn't like the course – well guess what? if you are being challenged with new ways of doing things and thinking you probably will not like what you are learning, but you will learn. The same principle holds for debate – you need to be exposed to ideas that challenge you, make you angry, raise your passions and get you moving and thinking. Politeness is highly overrated except for opening doors for women and seniors.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/bananapatch bananapatch

        Maureen, I hear you.

        However, if I have to force my ideas down your throat, they're probably not very good ideas. And if you're forcing your ideas down my throat, I'm not likely to take you or your ideas very seriously.

        Excessive politeness is irritating, but civility is the oil that lubricates discourse.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/thekrob thekrob

      You are right to point out that the Charter guarantee such freedoms. However, the charter was not handed down by God. It is a piece of paper with some things written on it. Those things were written by people who made a choice – for better or worse. Similarly, legal rights are not imparted to us as living creatures, rather they are extensions of the state (and associated 'democratic history') – which again is an artifact of history. As such, they exist only to the extent that the state exists. (which, is the source of my objection to the HRC process).

      By the way, I did not mean to suggest that Confucius got it right – by any means. Instead, I pointed out that a range of views exist. But it rather it is important to remember that there are other perspectives in the matter that can't simply be ignored. We are all permitted to disagree with them, but to simply ignore such positions, or to right them off as the product of ignorant unenlightened minds is likely not the most productive approach. First consider, then reject.

      My final point was to the point that we should continue to uphold the reasons for having a free society, not just say that it is great and leave it at that. If we are to have strong opinion, (as evidenced by this conversation), those should be reasoned opinion, based on some rationale – whatever that might be. To simply espouse a view is not enough.

  • Richard

    Honestly, I wish, even now with the huge blow to the CHRC, that I could believe this issue will wither and die. But I sincerely hope that Mr. Steyn and Levant don't make the same mistake the First Alliance of Men and Elves made when they destroyed, or so they thought, Sauron. Please, for the sake of all Canadians, do not stop this war until every last vestige of this horrible organisation is dead and buried (and the ring of power destroyed). Because if the Liberal party ever does regain power all of your efforts and successes will go "Poof!" into the wind as they swoop down to protect one of their sacred institutions. Because make no mistake, regardless of the current stance of the Toronto Star, the Liberals do revere this organisation. And just as Sauron lived on and rebuilt the tower at Barad-dûr, the Liberals will do the same.

    • Rabbit

      I completely agree, despite the LOTR references. The CHRC incursion into speech control has suffered a set back, but I won't rest till we put a stake through its black heart by revoking section 13 in parliament and reducing the CRHC budget accordingly.

  • Laurence Pitcher

    Congratulations to Maclean's for having the courage and conviction to stand against the Canadian Human Rights Commission and Tribunal's rather Orwellian ways. Many of us knew when this vehicle was created that it would prove to be irresistible
    to the strong willed with political agendas. Only trusting Canada would have allowed such an experiment in the first place, but how all that is soon going to change.

  • Raymond

    Steyn's has a rebuttal on his website to your post that will undoubtedly put your tired old lazy Argument of yelling fire in a crowded theatre to rest

  • Hatemonger

    Hey, Warman, please turn me in, please! What can I say about you…you're a closet multisexual impotent sadistic communist…c'mon, c'mon, turn me in, what are you waiting for? You can even tell me what to say to you so I get accused. What does a guy have to do to get indicted around here?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/craigola craigola

      It appears that getting indicted is more difficult than you imagined.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Be_rad Be_rad

      It would make it easier if you used your real name…

  • Nick

    Nutty Canadian justice. No society is perfect Mr. Stein and while human rights tribunals are no doubt flawed, I would not be bragging about a prick like Mr. Lemere being able to spew lies and hate. We are Canadians, not Americans. WHile we have historically valued freedom of speech, we do not, and did not, hold to it as some kind of religious faith. We had freedom that was balanced with social good and social order. This is why we have things like healthcare and why the hyper individualist US has people who think that having the basic decency to provide affordable care is "communism and fascism". If you have disposed of the CHRT MR. Stein, maybe you can set your sights on the truly hideous Fox News.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

      Because nothing says freedom of speech like taking aim at Fox News just because Nick doesn't like what they have to say sometimes.

      You could not have (inadvertently) provided a finer argument highlighting the dangers of censorship, Nick. Congratulations, and thank you.

    • Maureen

      If the example you use to prove your point is Canadian healthcare – God help us all.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/janicemaerose janicemaerose

      Good one Nick.

  • Free to Express

    Poor Steyn, a lawsuit from RW is likely already in the mail. Him and Warren Kinsella likely make up 80% of the defamation lawsuits in Ontario.

  • Revnant Dream

    Now they need to be fired. Than set up a board to rightly give back the CHRC's victims. At least the money they spent on lawyers, plus lifespan spent fighting this shakedown racket. We had to do the same for those who where sterilized in Alberta under eugenics laws passed in the 30s. Or the more modern Hepatitis C victims of blood banks frightened by gay groups.
    Except for personnel slander, any society that gives into this bulling has lost its guts to be free. Thank God for the efforts of Men & Women who have fought this so hard. No matter how old we are. We ought to all start to be more informed & pass that trait as a must to other generations to keep our Liberty. The word citizen has to become a verb.
    Freedom is not for the lazy. Being a slave means you never have to make a decision. That good or bad, is immutable.
    JMO

  • Steely Irony

    FIRE. THEM. ALL.

From Macleans