Compromising positions: Ignatieff and the HST

by kadyomalley on Sunday, September 20, 2009 1:54pm - 106 Comments

iggysept21It came at the tail end of the scrum, which is probably why it garnered relatively little media coverage. But even in mid-liveblog mode, an ITQ eyebrow went up when Michael Ignatieff was asked about his party’s seemingly contradictory position on the GST/PST harmonization plans in British Columbia and Ontario.

Instead of simply answering the question, he reminded reporters that he’s the leader of the opposition, not the government, and, as such, “doesn’t have to have a position” — which, as far as he is concerned, meant that he didn’t have to clarify it.

Which, of course, is true: No one held a gun to his head and forced him to pick a side in the Great HST Debate of 2009.  Unfortunately for Ignatieff, however, not only did he take a position, but for a while, there, he seems to been have holding both of them — at the same time. The facts, as the Narrator might say, were these:

At some point during the last few weeks, someone at OLO made the strategic decision to go after the government on the HST deals in British Columbia in Ontario,almost certainly to boost Liberal support in two regions where it is both critical and — at least, according to the most recent polls — starting to slide.

Given the widespread public outrage over the tax — particularly in BC, but likely to grow in Ontario as well — it must have seemed, on the surface, like a smart move, particularly in what then seemed likely to be the leadup to a fall campaign.

The catch? Apparently, around the same time, someone else at OLO had given Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty the distinct impression that a future Liberal government would honour the existing agreement with Ottawa. Which is why when he was asked about it in a scrum last week, McGuinty was only too happy to go on the record with his understanding of Ignatieff’s views on the HST deal.

Not surprisingly, this left the federal Liberals rather unexpectedly on the defensive. John McCallum, the party’s finance critic, assured Hill reporters that the premier would soon be issuing a “clarification”. A few hours later,  McGuinty’s office released a terse statement that, as it turned out, didn’t clarify much at all, except that the wink-and-a-nod on the HST didn’t come from Ignatieff himself, but some unnamed — but  surely fairly senior — member of his team.

If that is what happened — and as far as ITQ knows, nobody at OLO has denied it — it isn’t hard to see why McGuinty would have assumed that the deal was safe, and after Ignatieff’s comments last Friday, he — not to mention the rest of us — deserve to know whether he was misled — unintentionally or otherwise — by someone speaking on Ignatieff’s behalf.

Really, when you get down to it, it goes to credibility — Ignatieff’s, that is, and not just on the HST, but in general. It would be different if this was the first time that we’d seen the Liberal leader attempt to have it both ways on a contentious issue, but it isn’t. (Round one of Ignatieff vs. Asbestos, anyone?) If he and his party are planning to campaign on the prime minister’s behind-closed-doors musings, he’d better make sure that he isn’t just as vulnerable to that line of attack.

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  • Anon

    He can just stand by Flaherty's comments and suggest that the government has done a poor job in the implementation. That way, he can support it policy-wise but still be critical of the government.

    As an aside, does Maclean's force its writers to work 24/7, because it sure seems like it?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/NorthernPoV NorthernPoV

      I hear they have dungeons for the laggards!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

        I find it most endearing, because you know they are people who think about this stuff, just as we do, whether they are on the clock or not.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/NorthernPoV NorthernPoV

    HST:
    an abandoned pitiless orphan desperately searching the political landscape for its parents

    • Gawd

      that orphan is getting adopted

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

    Interesting experiment would be to take Harper, Ignatieff and Layton – set out their positions and set out when they changed and/or didn't reply.

    My guess is Harper would win.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/NorthernPoV NorthernPoV

      Perhaps he has been careful on this specific issue, in front of the cameras.

      His perplexing outburst at the G8 about hating all taxes reveals the true right wing fringe position that is likely closer to his heart. In the end, his gov't (and most of our political players) seem to be utterly confused on this issue.

      This is now what passes for a political discourse on taxes in North America.
      I think the tipping point was Bush senior and his "read my lips" fiasco.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

        Can you list a series of issues the Liberals have been clear in the last four years that are different than the current government?

        1)Greenshift was not very popular.
        2) Robust Peacekeeping outside the UN Security Council mandate?

        Thanks

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

          Number 2 might require more explaination

        • wilson

          add 3) EI360 4) accountability of Native leaders 5) safe injection sites 6) dismantling the CWB and 7) gun registry 8) Court Challenges program 9) Senate reform

          A more interesting list would be where the Liberals 'appear' to be different, but where the facts say they are the same.

          HST
          Khadr
          Kyoto

        • John

          Picky, picky.

      • one

        oops, nor do I, lol!!! I meant credibility…..

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/auntie_em_m auntie_em_m

          oops, you are consisten.

      • Whiskey

        Jim and Christine Elliott both seem to have conflicting views of the HST, as well.

        And they are at Jack Layton's proverbial shared kitchen table.

        • LOL

          I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting that because Christine is maried she isn't allowed to have opinions of her own anymore?

      • Gawd

        its perplexing to see there are people that think taxes are good

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

          Why?

          • John

            We seem to have a disproportionate share of former citizens from Moronovia.

          • Gawd

            if you like we can meet on a downtown streetcorner and see if you want to repeat that. i'll bet not

          • Canuckistanian

            stay classy san diego

  • Moar Ethnics Nao

    I'm not sure what you are saying here, it seems very rambling, with no focus. Have you had a mental health checkup lately? Just kidding, I wanted to see what it was like to try that lame debate tactic. It feels, well, gay. It feels gay.

    "It would be different if this was the first time that we’d seen the Liberal leader attempt to have it both ways on a contentious issue, but it isn’t"

    You're smart not to hitch your wagon to the Iggy horse, good post. Without any exaggeration Iggy is a worse leader than Dion was; at least Stephane could open his mouth for more than a few seconds without sticking his foot in it. Not so Iggy. Dion also had the advantage of not being associated with self professed Lenin admirer and Chinese food critic Warren Kinsella. The CPC is going to clobber the Libs for their ties to Kinsella, mark my words. He's hazmat.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

      "It feels, well, gay. It feels gay. "

      Boy you are a piece of work aren't you………..pathetic.

      Harper reads Stalin – no comment about that? Uh, huh….

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

        Remember the guy who posted here as "Libs Fail" a few months ago? Same guy. He's not crazy, he's just a troll.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/austinso austinso

        Hey…give the guy a break…he seems to know what "gay" _feels_ like…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/danby danby

      You and your jock buddies gonna give him a wedgie?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

    Mr Iganatieff doesn't have time to develop a position on the HST. He is too busy fleshing out his foreign policy for Canadians as in this comment yesterday in Waterloo:

    “I want a country where everyone sets their sights on going overseas at some point in their lives,” [Michael Ignatieff] said.

    Weird.

    • Gawd

      what does Iganatieff mean in Inuit?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

        Isn't it Puffin?

      • John

        Ignore the riff raff.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

      It is weird. I guess they are getting these things out of the way early. I wonder if they seriously expected a campaign right now and these would have been campaign speeches….THAT would have been weird.

      headline in the Globe "Liberals promise to fund overseas trips for kids"

      Maybe his handlers are just starting with what he knows, or there just trying to pu so much padding around the foreign experience thing that the attack becomes meaningless. Nothing wrong with international experience, but 34 years with no return home would always raise issues. Imagine a job applciant the other way around…I have been in Canada for 34 years therefore I have acquired a perspective unique enough to qualify me to lead the International Division of Microsoft, especially when faced with clients who have "international" experience.

      Anyway, old battle.

      Summary: I agree they are pushing the foreign thing so much….makes sense to embrace your weakness, but I think there is something else at work….Is iggy directing this or is he taking advice…inquiring minds want to know.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

        As for your hypothetical headline in the Globe "Liberals promise to fund overseas trips for kids"), even Jane Taber might have gagged giggling.

        I am not opposed to encouraging travel. After all, I lived outside of Canada for over 25 years myself. Nonetheless, it is a strange focus for the Liberal Party during a serious recession.

        It also highlights another often overlooked fact. It is the Liberal Party that represents the rich kids who can afford the time and money to go overseas.

        • Gawd

          maybe there'll be a non-refundable tax credit only people who can afford to pay cash to send their kids globetrotting can benefit from

        • BigAl

          Having been out of Canada for 25 years TwoYen, was there any point during that time where you felt that you were in touch enough with what was going on both politically and socially in Canada that you could return to become PM?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

            Yes…but I was working for the Canadian government for many of thise years. Iggy was not.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

            Yes…but I was working for the Canadian government for many of those years. Iggy was not.

          • John

            Two Yen — the pagoda beckons.

        • John

          You are sooo full of yourself, Mr. OneYen and a Half.

    • wilson

      Curious, you'd think he would want to shake the 'visitor' label and tell Canadians to
      Discover Canada.

      But then he does think we are a nation of herbivorean boy scouts, boring by any world traveller's measure.

      • ctm

        He should encourage canadian kids to get to know our beautiful country, but of course for him it has to be over seas, he just doesn't like Canada and where are his PR people, this idiot keeps screwing up and bringing down the libs….

      • Gawd

        nah he's too busy advertising the puddle of goop in alberta in his quest to win american votes

    • Style

      I'm glad you tied in the international stuff, because I've been wondering why Iggy's credibility as an internationalist wasn't questioned following the announcement that Chris Alexander (Canada's former ambassador to Afghanistan) will run as a candidate for the "small Canada" Conservatives…

      • John

        Especially by the Bureaucrat hating right wing…

        "A career diplomat, he was deputy director responsible for Canada's bilateral relations with Russia at the Department of Foreign Affairs in Ottawa, and earlier Assistant to the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. Mr. Alexander joined the Canadian Foreign Service in 1991."

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

    http://www.parl.gc.ca/Information/library/inside/…

    The Role of the Opposition

    In Canada, the party with the greatest number of elected representatives that is not the governing party becomes Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. This party takes the lead in holding the Government accountable for its policies and actions. The leader of this party becomes the leader of the Official Opposition, sitting directly across from the Prime Minister. The duty of the Official Opposition and other opposition parties is to “challenge” government policies and suggest improvements, and present an alternative to the current Government’s policy agenda.

    Opposition members have various opportunities to influence the formulation of laws and policies, including the daily Question Period in the House of Commons. The Opposition is allocated 20 “Opposition Days” or “Supply Days” each calendar year when it can propose a motion for debate and criticize the Government on issues of broad national policy. Members of opposition parties also serve on parliamentary committees in both the Senate and the House of Commons.

    In the Senate, the Opposition often plays a less partisan role. The Leader of the Opposition in the Senate leads the Opposition in debate, coordinates its daily activities and confers with the Leader of the Government in the Senate on its business. The Leader of the Opposition, like the Leader of the Government, is an ex officio member of all standing committees and helps coordinate party strategy.

    To be fair his advisors (strategists)/ party : Liberals are not interested in challenging with "alternatives" to be debated and voted in the HOC. In his own words his only job is to evaluate the Government, asking tough questions, demanding "reports".

    When will the media discover the official opposition role and the decisions by the Liberal Party?

    • one

      The problem here is that he is not consisten as a leader of the opposition. So he has no credebility anymore!

  • http://oldschoolliberals.blogspot.com/ Old School

    Perhaps he will figure it out during the long flight to China and back.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

    Old School,

    Is that trip back on now, after Iggy suddenly cancelled it? did anyone ever get a good answer on the real reason it was cancelled. Being a man of international stature Iggy would know you dont suddenly cancel internaional meetings that take months to coordinate…..unless they were meetings that were so low level it didnt matter anyway.

    • Gawd

      kinda like going to visit the loo

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

        LOL, well you know that is going to showup in a Liberal ad….the worst kept secret in Canadian politics.

        • ctm

          it got cancelled because of his major screw up of threating us with an election….I mean really,who is advising this guy!!!

    • wilson

      No no, it was an official visit, according to the LPC…….we are awaiting the outrage from Chinese officials on this obvious slap in the face!

    • Jim in Ottawa

      Actually, it is our current government who have had a very hard time getting anyone's attention in China. You recall they put completely inexperienced and unaccomplished doofuses like Jason Kenney on the file initially. At least some grownups are now involved (read professional diplomats, not the similarly unaccomplished little hack PM Harper).

      Harper shift on China is purely politically driven – like everything he does. His attitude hasn't changed because he doesn't know any better and chooses not to educate himself on this or many other issues other than what his paid polls tell him.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

    That's the problem with Iggy. What you see is not what you will always get. Higher taxes, maybe, maybe not. Support for asbestos industry in Quebec, Maybe, maybe not. Coalition…coalition if necessary but not necessarily a coalition. Supports oilsand, maybe, maybe not. Supports HST, maybe, maybe not. Cap and trade maybe, maybe not. Torture, maybe, maybe not. Yet in all of these musings he says it is his job to oppose. It has nothing to do with what's in the best interest of the country. It is his job to create political instability and he will continue to do that until he and the Liberal party are once again restored to power. The question is. Whats in it for the country.

  • Gawd

    "Wait and See"

  • oppo guy

    Good catch Kady.

    He doesn’t HAVE to HAVE a position?? Why not? His caucus members must have two (ot three) on HST!

    And this guy wants people to see him as a Prime Minister in waiting? I can just see their slogan: “The Liberal Party of Canada: Vote for us, because we are an option on the ballot … er, and that is all.”

  • Ron

    "HST iF necessary but not necessarily the HST" – Vintage Liberalism.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

    When he finally figures out his position on the HST, don't be surprised if Michael Ignatieff calls for a "visitors' rebate".

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

    <script type="text/javascript" charset="utf-8" src="http://static.polldaddy.com/p/2017862.js"></script><noscript&gt;
    Role: Official Opposition Duty to introduce alternatives to Government Policy?<span style="font-size:9px;">(surveys)</span>
    </noscript>

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

    Simple Survey.

    Role of Official Opposition Duty to introduce alternatives to the Government?

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  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

    Simple Survey.

    Role of Official Opposition Duty to introduce alternatives to the Government?

    &lt;script type="text/javascript" charset="utf-8" src="http://static.polldaddy.com/p/2017862.js"&gt;&lt;/script&gt;&lt;noscript&gt;
    Role: Official Opposition Duty to introduce alternatives to Government Policy?&lt;span style="font-size:9px;"&gt;(surveys)&lt;/span&gt;
    &lt;/noscript&gt;

  • Whiskey

    Ignatieff is wise to let the Harper party figure out their position on the HST.

    Or, is Flaherty now sticking to the 'let the provinces decide' diversion?

    • janwebb

      It has ALWAYS been the province's right to decide on the HST. The federal government does not benefit. The (5%) is a national tax (that would be the GST) applied across the country in every province. That part doesn't change, therefore the federal gov't has no position on the HST. The federal gov't simply collects the combined taxes via Revenue Canada and rebates to the provinces whatever their provincial rate of tax is (i.e. in B.C. it is 6%). The feds don't get to keep any of it, but it does cut down on administrative costs.
      In 1997 and 1998, the LIBERAL government facilitated the HST for most of the Atlantic provinces which still exists today. Ignatieff is just showing his ignorance calling it a Harper Sales Tax, since he was not here when the previous Liberal gov't did this. Do people ever check their facts????

  • BobbyB

    It is not up to the opposition parties to define Canada or Canada's policies that is for the government. Why not ask Harper and the Conservatives to tell you what it is they are doing. After all they are the ones that seem to think the opposition parties are NOT doing things right so Mr. Harper, suppose you articulate to the electortae what your policies are and what you are striving for????? You do have a plan don't you Mr. Harper, as the government, the one that is wanting a majority, you must have a plan, right???

    • John

      Tell that to Gawd and his clan. They will no doubt agree to a thoughtful debate…

      "if you like we can meet on a downtown streetcorner and see if you want to repeat that. i'll bet not" (See above)

      Nice people, these right wingers.

    • wilson

      'Mr. Harper, suppose you articulate to the electortae what your policies are and what you are striving for'

      He did, and the government does every day, it's called governing.

      In the Speech from the Throne, in the Budget, in the 2 ways and means motions,
      and PMSH had Liberal support for all but the last ways and means, that included the Reno Tax credit.
      The government has had the confidence of parliament, which is demonstrated by voting, not threats thru the media,
      since January 2006.

      What you are asking for is the next Conservative election platform.
      In the words of the unelected leader of the official opposition,
      wait and see.

      • janwebb

        Wilson,
        I really enjoy your posts — they are both informative and funny!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense
  • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense
  • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense
  • John

    Gollum.

  • Gawd

    yeah like anyone who thinks the way the tax system operates is good.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    Kady, great blog post!

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