Steyn and Levant on free speech, and what MPs are thinking of doing about it

The free speech advocates testify before the House of Commons Justice Committee

by John Geddes on Monday, October 5, 2009 7:34pm - 64 Comments

Steyn and Levant on free speech, and what MPs are thinking of doing about itA tandem appearance by Maclean’s columnist Mark Steyn and Ezra Levant, former publisher of the Western Standard magazine, made for an unusually entertaining first day of hearings at a parliamentary committee probing the controversial powers of the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

Steyn and Levant were called as witnesses by the House of Commons Justice Committee because they have both clashed with the commission and emerged as impassioned advocates for the repeal of Section 13 of the Human Rights Act, which gives the commission the authority to investigate complaints about hate speech.

They put on the anticipated lively show as the committee launched deliberations on Section 13. At one point, Steyn called the human rights commission’s investigators “psychologically disturbed.” Levant catalogued allegations of outrageous entrapment techniques he says have been used by the commission in an “out of control” hunt for hate-speakers to drag before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal.

But if the two media-star witnesses were the focus of attention in Parliament’s Railway Committee Room, the inclinations of mostly anonymous MPs sitting on the committee could end up being the real story as its work progresses.

MPs from both the government and opposition sides told Maclean’s they are serious about reforming Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act. Brent Rathgeber, the Tory MP representing the Edmonton-St. Albert riding, a lawyer elected for the first time last fall, said the time is right for the act to be amended.

“I suspect that a groundswell of caucus support could likely move this matter onto the government agenda,” Rathgeber said after the appearance by Steyn and Levant.

The government’s willingness to move on the issue has been far from clear in the past. Early this year, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said he had no plans to amend the act. Even if Rathgeber is right that Harper, and perhaps Justice Minister Rob Nicholson, would now be prepared to take action if enough MPs pushed them, there’s still the question of where the opposition parties stand.

“Bear in mind,” Rathgeber said, “we live in the reality of a minority parliament and I’m not sure MPs on the other side of the table would agree.”

The tenor of questions from Liberal, Bloc Québécois and NDP MPs certainly made it sound like they would not be easily swayed by the arguments from Levant and Steyn for an outright repeal of Section 13. However, Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh—a former British Columbia attorney general and longtime human rights activist whose voice counts on this issue—said outside the committee room that he is “absolutely” in favour of changing Section 13, though probably not abolishing it.

In fact, even the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, which adjudicates on cases referred to it by the Canadian Human Rights Commission’s investigators, has recently turned on Section 13. In a Sept. 2 decision, tribunal member Anthanasios Hadjis, said the section violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Levant said he now fully expects that decision to be fought all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada on appeals. “But we shouldn’t have to wait ten years for the Supreme Court’s decision,” he added, arguing it’s time for Parliament to take a stand.

The tribunal’s rejection of Section 13 in some ways echoed a report on the issue that the commission itself paid University of Windsor law professor Richard Moon to write last year. Moon concluded that “censorship of hate speech should be limited to speech that explicitly or implicitly threatens, justifies or advocates violence against the members of an identifiable group.” That sort of ban in extreme cases belongs in the Criminal Code, he said, but not in human rights law. So he called for Section 13 to be repealed.

“Professor Moon is certainly no fan or friend of either of us,” Steyn told the committee. “But he found, as a fair-minded man, when you look at Section 13 in the cold light of day, it’s completely indefensible.”

Maclean’s has also called for Parliament to abolish Section 13. The magazine took that position after the commission pursued a complaint brought against it by the Canadian Islamic Congress, over the article “The Future Belongs to Islam,” an excerpt from Steyn’s book America Alone. The commission ultimately dismissed the complaint, but only after the case had drawn unprecedented attention to its controversial powers to police supposed hate speech.

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  • Mike T.

    The sad thing is that so many Canadians like you actually think there's a kernel of truth to comments like this.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

      I am a law student so I know how the law is supposed to work. And setting aside whether you think Steyn is wrong about what are rights and what aren't, I have a huge issue with the procedure that is used in the HRCs. It is NOTHING like real courts; procedure that has developed over hundreds of years and WORKS. So I am more concerned about ignorant Canadians like you.

      • Mike T.

        awesome! I graduated from Osgoode many years ago.

        I know admin law, my dear boy, and I don't have a problem with it. Neither does the Supreme Court.

        • dbk

          One of the tribunal judges stated that the supreme court would have trouble with the administration.

          He opined that it was unconstitutional.

          Derek

    • Mike T.

      On second thought, I hate to second guess people on the internet, but I'm willing to bet you aren't really a law student. A law student, of all people, would understand that the procedures used in tribunal systems are an integral and long standing part of hte legal system, not the sinister evil "star chambers" (puhleeeze) anti-HRC simpletons have made them out of to be.

      For what its worth, I'm just not buying what you're selling regarding your credentials here.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

        A) I'm female. B) Not all law students blindly follow what is taught. Some actually have their own ideas and opinions. The problems with the HRC that I have are a) lengthy waiting times – meaning no right to speedy trial; allowance of hearsay evidence; no access to legal aid of any kind, meaning many people in front of the HRCs are unrepresented, or settle because they cannot afford legal representation; that truth is NOT a defence to s 13, nor is honest belief as is the case for a defamation suit in a real court. I could go on but I think I've proved my point.

        • Mike T.

          This post is mindboggingly inaccurate for somebody with your supposed background. A big part of the raison d'etre of tribunals is speed and cheapness. if it were real court they'd still be in discovery by the time the hearing was held at a tribunal – seriously. And if you think they routinely give out legal aid certificates for real court for this kind of thing, go do yourself some good and volunteer at your (supposed) school's legal aid clinic.

          As for the difference in standards commonly used in tribunals across the country, from your vast store of knowledge (heh) please give examples of how these standards have led to bad determinations, rather than merely prevented Zundel from getting a soapbox. Even the dissent in Taylor admitted you can effectively police hate speech without a so-called "truth defence".

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

            In Lund v. Boissoin, from start to finish, it was 5 years. And there are more examples, that is the one I chose. I understand the principle of speed and cheapness, but that doesn't mean the application works.
            And I do volunteer at my school's legal clinic.

            You are clearly not interested in seeing the evidence; only attacking me. I've presented proof for my arguments, you have not. I'm done. Have a good day.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

        Specifically regarding the HRCs, there are decisions (Lund v Boissoin) where the adjudicator has created a hierarchy of the rights enshrined in the Charter, which the Supreme Court DOES NOT agree with (See eg. Dagenais v. Canadian Broadcasting Corp., [1994] 3 S.C.R. 835, at p. 877). Another SERIOUS problem with the HRCs.

        • Mike T.

          Sometimes tribunals make mistakes of law (as happened recently when one refused to follow s. 13),a nd this can be corrected by a process known as judicial review. It's built into the system itself.

          And five years is the very beginning of the drop dead rule in civil proceedings. If that's your example of an outrageous delay, I can't ehlp you.

      • http://www.robedger.blogspot.com Robin

        Could be a first-year law student. It's only the beginning of October, after all. I didn't know very much about administrative law by then. Of course, I wouldn't have made a statement like "I'm a law student so I know how the law is supposed to work" then either.

        That said, it is a completely defensible position to have some disagreement with some of the procedural practices of the HRTs. I don't think they are as egregious as some other tribunals in the country, but I guess the procedural practices of securities commissions isn't a very sexy issue right now.

        • Mike T.

          Indeed I'm totally willing to talk about tribunals AS A WHOLE, but I really really dislike the way the press has made aspects of an entire branch of law into something sinister without providing context.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

          I'm 3rd year. I've taken admin. But I've seen the evidence re. the HRCs. I don't care for administrative tribunals in general.
          The purpose of that statement was so that Mike T. could appreciate that I understand the workings of the legal system rather than insult my intelligence. The personal attacks are unnecessary. I've offered evidence for my claims; criticizers haven't.

  • Mike T.

    I'll take it over yours, mr. I play some sort of law student on the interent :)

  • vpsoccer

    No one has a right to not be offended from time to time.

    Everyone has a right to stand up and say stupid things be laughed at.

  • Vlad

    Imagine if we could imbue the offended with a sense of humour. Consider the body bag scandal. Get over it First Nations!

  • Syed

    There is a problem here , it is ok to get rid of section 13 , but it will be difficult to practice the favorite double standards. I mean if you criticize the human rights abuses of Israel . It immediately becomes hate speech and anti semitic , on the other hand aboriginals and Muslims are a fare game, there is no limit to how much you can insult and hate them.It will be difficult to stop those who criticize Israel for their war crimes . no one can run after them with a dagger and a threat of lawsuit. even though Mark Steyn will feel free to exercise his right to hate speech when it comes to Muslim bashing. so the price you pay for getting rid of section 13 is far greater , If good people really knew that Israel Commits war crimes and gets away with it , that will not be good. Now you have successfully convinced a whole bunch of morons in Canada that Israel is a good country and must be respected. Abusing the section 13 and gagging any one who tells the truth.

    • Bill

      Syed, give it up. Steyn's book was simply an anlysis of demographics – which are easily backed up – and his (reasonable ) conclusions that arrive from those demographics. And there is nothing in the book that counsels hatred against the Muslims – it is simply a prediction of changes that will come about if those demographics continue. And as far as the Israelis go, if someone spent month after month lobbing rockets into my backyard I would have done exactly the same thing they did. As well, it was not the Israelis that brought down the World Trade Center. It was not the Israelis that bombed the train in Spain. It was not the Israelis that bombed the tube in London. It was not the Israelis that bombed the nightclub in Bali. It was not the Israelis that…………….. do I really need to continue? You persist in showing who is really the moron.

    • Red Star Falling

      Syed,

      You don't get it. The criticism of Israel is valid. But it's also valid for Pakistan, Britain, India, Sri Lanka, Russia, China, and many many more.

      As for America Alone, I read it and quite enjoyed it. But i didn't thing Muslims were being unfairly characterized. What I felt was that western liberals have gone too far and have really screwed things up for themselves. The Liberals have created a culture, which is headed towrds extinction, gone, adiós. The Muslims, on the other hand, are youthful, energetic and alive. it's up to the secularists to see this and perhaps rescind the Award of Canada to Morgantaller. and begin to become less selfish and more community oriented.

  • Foreigner

    made it sound like they would not be easily swayed by the arguments from Levant and Steyn

    They don't have arguments. They have calumnies

  • DPIGS

    Care to back up that statement?

  • fiveteamer

    It should be noted that the Candian Jewish Congress vigorously defends and supports Section 13, and we all know what a bunch of loony toon, lefty socialists they are.

  • Foreigner

    One example. Ezra Levant asserted that Richard Moon's report had been interfered with by the head of the CHRC. Moon responded that Levant had simply made up that charge.

    There are many more.

From Macleans