Steyn and Levant on free speech, and what MPs are thinking of doing about it

The free speech advocates testify before the House of Commons Justice Committee

by John Geddes on Monday, October 5, 2009 7:34pm - 64 Comments

Steyn and Levant on free speech, and what MPs are thinking of doing about itA tandem appearance by Maclean’s columnist Mark Steyn and Ezra Levant, former publisher of the Western Standard magazine, made for an unusually entertaining first day of hearings at a parliamentary committee probing the controversial powers of the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

Steyn and Levant were called as witnesses by the House of Commons Justice Committee because they have both clashed with the commission and emerged as impassioned advocates for the repeal of Section 13 of the Human Rights Act, which gives the commission the authority to investigate complaints about hate speech.

They put on the anticipated lively show as the committee launched deliberations on Section 13. At one point, Steyn called the human rights commission’s investigators “psychologically disturbed.” Levant catalogued allegations of outrageous entrapment techniques he says have been used by the commission in an “out of control” hunt for hate-speakers to drag before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal.

But if the two media-star witnesses were the focus of attention in Parliament’s Railway Committee Room, the inclinations of mostly anonymous MPs sitting on the committee could end up being the real story as its work progresses.

MPs from both the government and opposition sides told Maclean’s they are serious about reforming Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act. Brent Rathgeber, the Tory MP representing the Edmonton-St. Albert riding, a lawyer elected for the first time last fall, said the time is right for the act to be amended.

“I suspect that a groundswell of caucus support could likely move this matter onto the government agenda,” Rathgeber said after the appearance by Steyn and Levant.

The government’s willingness to move on the issue has been far from clear in the past. Early this year, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said he had no plans to amend the act. Even if Rathgeber is right that Harper, and perhaps Justice Minister Rob Nicholson, would now be prepared to take action if enough MPs pushed them, there’s still the question of where the opposition parties stand.

“Bear in mind,” Rathgeber said, “we live in the reality of a minority parliament and I’m not sure MPs on the other side of the table would agree.”

The tenor of questions from Liberal, Bloc Québécois and NDP MPs certainly made it sound like they would not be easily swayed by the arguments from Levant and Steyn for an outright repeal of Section 13. However, Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh—a former British Columbia attorney general and longtime human rights activist whose voice counts on this issue—said outside the committee room that he is “absolutely” in favour of changing Section 13, though probably not abolishing it.

In fact, even the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, which adjudicates on cases referred to it by the Canadian Human Rights Commission’s investigators, has recently turned on Section 13. In a Sept. 2 decision, tribunal member Anthanasios Hadjis, said the section violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Levant said he now fully expects that decision to be fought all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada on appeals. “But we shouldn’t have to wait ten years for the Supreme Court’s decision,” he added, arguing it’s time for Parliament to take a stand.

The tribunal’s rejection of Section 13 in some ways echoed a report on the issue that the commission itself paid University of Windsor law professor Richard Moon to write last year. Moon concluded that “censorship of hate speech should be limited to speech that explicitly or implicitly threatens, justifies or advocates violence against the members of an identifiable group.” That sort of ban in extreme cases belongs in the Criminal Code, he said, but not in human rights law. So he called for Section 13 to be repealed.

“Professor Moon is certainly no fan or friend of either of us,” Steyn told the committee. “But he found, as a fair-minded man, when you look at Section 13 in the cold light of day, it’s completely indefensible.”

Maclean’s has also called for Parliament to abolish Section 13. The magazine took that position after the commission pursued a complaint brought against it by the Canadian Islamic Congress, over the article “The Future Belongs to Islam,” an excerpt from Steyn’s book America Alone. The commission ultimately dismissed the complaint, but only after the case had drawn unprecedented attention to its controversial powers to police supposed hate speech.

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  • Red Star Falling

    Section 13=thought control

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

    Levant catalogued allegations of outrageous entrapment techniques he says have been used by the commission in an “out of control” hunt for hate-speakers to drag before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal.

    Levant lied to a Parliamentary committee. Is there are law against that and if not, why not?

    • wayne moores

      You are making unsubstaniated and vague accusations, hey wait a sec, you must one of the weasels who makes a nice living working for that kangaroo court. If you arn't, and as long as you have no morals or ethics, I suggest you apply, you would be a perfect candidate. Cheers.

      • Foreigner

        "You must one of the weasels who makes a nice living working for that kangaroo court."

        And you're complaining about unsubstantiated accusations?

        How ironic. No, I mean stupid. How stupid.

        • http://anatomyofculture.blogspot.com/ R.B. Glennie

          *How ironic. No, I mean stupid. How stupid.*

          Twitchell is that you?
          I mean, the psychological projection is there and all.

          And i noticed, too, you weren't able to come up with more, you know, *examples* of where Levant or Steyn lied. Sounds like Conway Twitchell, but if not, `Foreigner', you're pretty much cut from the same cloth anyway.

        • wayne moores

          Only because you made them, butt ass..I wouldn't say that but you are the one who put up the graphic, showing the world what an ass you are..guess you can accuse me of something, but your ass hanging out there for everyone to see kind of proves my point…and for God's sake, cover that up.. cheers

    • dbk

      Actually there is. We shall see who is right. You or him.

      Now, maybe you can show up as witness and contradict him. If it is false, is there a law against it?

      Derek

  • Madman

    you are one of those left wing idiots who apporves censorship when it follows your ploitically correct ideology. SO Robert how do you feel about "piss Christ or Capitalist Jesus?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

    I saw the video, it was a very interesting discussion.

  • Anise

    Just because you dont like his opinion, Buttface, doesnt make it a lie.

  • Vlad

    Ujal, what an idiot. He was a complete idiot in that hearing. Any 8 year old knows you shouldn't jail people for calling names. Gimme a break. We will see if the Conservatives are worth anything now.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    I realize committee members invite witnesses to help enlighten them on issues with which the witnesses would have more knowledge and/or expertise, but I would have hoped that they would have chosen to have become at least a little more informed.

    • scf

      I've been thinking the same thing. They appeared to be completely uninformed by recent developments over the last few years. They also appeared to be uninformed about cases ongoing. Do they even know why their committee exists? Do they think it was just a randon happenstance?

    • Maureen

      I watched the live feed and I was appalled at the limited knowledge of the committee members – if I was appointed to a committee to review something I would be doing some background reading at least.

  • Earl

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the cowardly weasels on Parliament Hill (especially the Harper minority government) to repeal, or even amend, section 13. The Liberals, Bloc and, especially, the NDP, all enthusiastically support State censorship of views that depart from their left-wing, socialist political line. If change comes at all, it will be the result of a decision (years down the road) by the unelected geezers on the Supreme Court.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/DanielShays DanielShays

    The left is an unswerving practitioner of censorship while in power.It is an essential property of its ideology.Its only when out of power that it wraps itself in high minded rhetoric about freedom of speech and thought that is beyond the reach of bureaucrats.Keeping the left out of power therefore not only is a positive thing in terms of sensible government but it also wins converts for free speech. A win-win situation all around

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

    I would just like to point out that it isn't all of the left that supports s 13. I am a card carrying member of the federal liberals (say what you will), but I also see that s 13, and the other HRCs in Canada are disgusting excuses for courts. I once supported limits on free speech, but couldn't cement what the limit would be. Now I pretty much think short of inciting violence against a group, there shouldn't be limits. You don't have a right to not be offended. Political correctness is for politicians. And if you don't like what somebody says, don't listen. Don't insist that the government shut them up. “Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too.” ~ Voltaire
    “Fear of serious injury cannot alone justify suppression of free speech and assembly. Men feared witches and burned women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears.” ~ U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis
    Lets stick to "censoring" what children read/see/hear. But let me, an adult, make my own decisions.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/RobertSeymour RobertSeymour

      Let's not censor what children read, see, and hear. Let's leave that to parents who, in a free country, are the ones responsible for raising them.

    • Maureen

      The childhood phrase 'sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me!" keeps running through my head – unfortunately Section 13 is all about words that people feel 'hurt' them. Big deal – in the course of my life I have had many, many hurtful things said to me – by friends, by co-workers, by bosses, by family, by people who hardly know me – somehow I have survived. We already have criminal code law to deal with the 'sticks and stones' – we need nothing more.

  • Craig O

    Steyn's writings are often offensive, hypocritical and full of so much misdirected hate it's frightening. However, he has a right to say all these things. Hopefully Section 13 will be properly amended to reflect those rights.

    We choose our own future. Steyn can say whatever he likes, no one has to accept his outlook on things. Those who do… well… we choose our own future.

    • Mike T.

      Steyn's writings are often offensive, hypocritical and full of so much misdirected hate it's frightening. However, he has a right to say all these things. Hopefully Section 13 will be properly amended to reflect those rights.

      That's pretty much exactly what the BC Tribunal felt about Steyn. The commissions have pretty much been batting 1000 on hate speech – white power sites and Boisson get the shut down, Macleans goes to a hearing and wins, Ezra's complaint doesn't even go to a hearing.

      …and please nobody start babbling about "it was only because of media attention!" please. You look like idiots.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/RobertSeymour RobertSeymour

    Whether Levant has put forward calumnies or not is immaterial. The arguments that exist for not only removing section 13 but abolishing "Human Rights" Commissions entirely are among the strongest in Canadian public policy.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

    I wasn't suggesting that the government or public censor them. The point I was trying to make was that only children need to have information censored, not adults. I personally couldn't care less what parents decide is fit for their children.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

    I wasn't suggesting that the government or public censor them. The point I was trying to make was that only children need to have information censored, not adults. I personally couldn't care less what parents decide is fit for their children. Hence censoring in " ".

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

    Ohhh ONE WHOLE example. Just about everything he states is backed up be evidence. I would contend that this claim was his opinion.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

    However, he has a right to say all these things.

    No he doesn't. Promoting hatred against groups of people is against the law. And those laws are constitutional.

    • DPT

      as usual you are setting up straw men, he has not promoted hatred against anyone, he has called for exposure of what is a ridiculous level of deference. As he has stated again and again, no one has the right not to be offended. Expressing a concern that certain groups receive preferential treatment in contradiction of our charter is not unconstitutional.

    • Mike T.

      Well, so far Steyn appears to have kept to the side of the law regarding hate speech, but its not hard to see why people would think he comes close, or why people would make complaints.

      If there's one thing the MacLeans case shows, its how utterly horrifying you have to be to actually get caught by hate speech laws. Anyone who isn't a true lunatic can easily stay within the legal bounds.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

      The definition of "promoting hatred" is a moving target. If I say "I hate group X", is that promoting hatred? If so, haul me before the courts and have me thrown in jail because I hate alot of groups.

    • Maureen

      Steyn has never expressed or advocated violence to any individual or group. Unlike some of the Muslim imans who preach hatred and violent action from their mosques and yet, magically, are never held accountable to any human rights commissions – why is that? It is that way, because as Steyn as pointed out often, they are an approved victim group, but sooner or later, two approved victim groups are going to clash at a human rights commission and then the rest of us can watch the fireworks. It will fun to watch, but totally unnecessary if human rights commissions didn't play favourites. Unfortunately no matter how well intended a law, section is, it will always be interpreted by busybody bureaucratics and in the case of HRC, those bureaucratics have no accountability (unlike the real justice system with all the checks and balances – Levant pointed out to the esteemed, but some ignorant members of the committee yesterday – oops maybe I will brought forward to a HRC because I called someone names.

    • http://northernsubverbia.blogspot.com Ron Good

      Rights and permissions are not the same thing. My human rights are not properly subject to permission–I have them precisely because I am human, period. Or, for example: Soviet dissidents had the *"right" to complain even if they did not have the State's legal permission. But leaving that (important) confusion aside…

      So, either Steyn *does* have the permission, which is why the complaint was dismissed…

      …or (if you are correct and what Steyn stated was actually properly prosecutable *hate*-mongering…although I disagree) the Commission was then too cowardly to rule against Steyn–but, of course, the latter wouldn't exactly be a good argument in favour of *keeping* the Commission, now would it.

    • Michael

      Your quite uninformed,He was found innocent by the Kangaroos on promoting hatred.
      The article in Macleans under such scrutiny was factual and accurate.Is the truth then hate speech

  • Rob H

    Most of the MPs don't know anything about the HRC or the legislation. Nor much of anything else. They are monkeys, only there to stand up or sit down on command when votes are taken. Then after two terms they get their pension for life. Currently 30% of eligible voters can elect a majority government because 40% of eligible voters rightly believe the system is a joke. Canadians deserve the governments they get.

  • Craig O

    He's promoting hatred, but not hateful actions.

    There's a difference and it's very important. If promoting hatred against groups of people was against the law I should be in jail myself for a number of things – there are people I dislike and truly believe are hurting our society, Mr. Steyn included. I've publicly expressed this hate. However, I don't encourage any crimes to be committed against those I dislike. Neither does Steyn. He villianizes people, yes, and it's very insidious the manner in which he does it (which makes me detest him even more), but until he actually encourages violence, it's not a crime.

  • mike

    their point is that section 13 makes it a crime if what you say MIGHT OFFEND someone.

    it is not about promoting hatred. nobody is saying it's ok to say "we should all hate the so and so's and let's lynch them".

    in Steyn's case, he is saying that the cultural shift the coming demographic changes will bring might not be in our best interest. f

    or that he is dragged before the thought police and that's wrong.

  • Inklings

    Robert McClelland: "No he doesn't. Promoting hatred against groups of people is against the law." I suppose if when you say "promoting hatred against a group" you mean inciting people to harm that group, then perhaps… in which case, in my opinion, the law should read "inciting to violence". In a free country I should be free to hate whomever I choose, so long as I live and let live.

  • Katherine

    I don't like Steyn and Levant, but I agree that Section 13 needs to go. Moon is right: speech that outright advocates violence against a group should be in the Criminal Code, but we shouldn't go farther than that. It's undemocratic to ban ideas, even offensive ones.

  • Mike T.

    It was pointed out before, and deserves saying again, that Moon notes that all the successful s. 13 complaints could have been successfully persecuted under the Criminal Code. Except there'd be jail time and criminal records, not just fines.

  • Mike T.

    I too hope that MPs get an opportunity to school themselves on human rights legislation and the legal principles which underpin administrative law and the tribunal system in Canada.

    An hour or so from a junior counsel at the dept. of justice should be enough to point out where Steyn and Levant were peddling their grossest exaggerations and most misleading canards.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

    That's his opinion. And a crappy one at that…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 adb215

    I am so tempted to say all the mean and hateful things I can think of just to see which one of you whiners hauls me before the HRCs because I offended you….

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