• http://intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

    Two words: shell game.

    • Jesse

      Unemployment DOWN three points here, up three points in the US.

      Harper wins.

      • even flow

        'it funny how you think you're winning
        then you get caught counting cards'

        -big sugar

      • an online reader

        Australia booted out the Conservatives/Republicans . Then last Oct. they spent 1% immediatly on stimulus , in Feb they spent 4% to further stimulate the economy and are considering another package now . They never went into recession .

        Harper is wasting 2% stimulus spread over 2 years and blowing $ 4 ro $ 20 billion on advanced fighters , $ 30 billion on Afghanistan , up to $ 100 billion on other defense capital projects , $ 4 billion on C130's to carry tanks around the world , increased defense budget from $ 6 to $ 12 to $ 18 billion . Oh ya him and Layton will also spend $300 k over 3 years on the oldest unemployed .

        Harper wins .

        • Jesse

          Australia's biggest trading partner is China and they never went into recession either.

          By the way, Australia's fiscal health benefited from John Howard's rule just like Canada's has because of lower taxes.

  • knick

    This statement should raise alarm bells all over the place – it goes to the credibility of the Harper gov. It's reassuring that the PBO is doing it's job despite attempts to muzzle it.

  • Anon

    Once Harper gets a majority or feels he has a virtual one, he's going to abandon most of those stimulus promises in order to get back to surplus/balance.

    • kcm

      That's what i had a feeling he might do. "Look i never wanted to do this all along, so i never spent the money." Course there is all that stuff about 90% of it being out the door.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

        to be accurate, it is 90% of it is allocated to approved projects that the fed government will pay their share of when the invoices arrive.

        So up to intepretation as to whether it is "out the door", "allocated" etc.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

        I've said it was his plan all along. And don't worry about the 90%; it goes out the door, the project isn't completed by March 31, 2011, and it comes back in the door again! It truly is brilliant–if the appearance of stimulus works as well as actual stimulus would do (so far, so good). The funds that really do get spent all get spent in Conservative ridings, while the government can't help it if non-Conservative ridings are so mismanaged they can't get the project completed on time (never mind the part about how the approval of the funding didn't come until September or October 2009–too late in the season to get started this year). Anyway, when even the public is ready for an election, a surprise! budget will be tabled showing the deficit position to be much better than we thought.

    • Foreigner

      Yes, I hope this government really is lying as much as that.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

    Kady, did you get that special email? On CTV – Tom Clark and guest Sheila Copps received an email – I couldn't believe what they said.

    The Harper boys are advertising the "Canadian" economic plan in the NEW YORK Times.

    Can't imagine how much that would cost.

  • Edward

    "Simplified Goods and Service Tax / Harmonized Sales Tax Application for Direct Sellers was included in the first quarterly report, but absent from subsequent reports."

    I wonder why that might be…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

    It is almost certainly not true that thegovernment was advertising in the NYT. There is a simple answer. The page from the NYT that Tom Clark had on his Blackberry was no doubt using a Canadian ISP. Most ISPs insert Canadian advertising when one brings up a web page, even a foreign web page.

    I get Canadian ads when I am reading the Asahi Shimbun and I can guarantee that it is my ISP (or Google or whoever) that is inserting the ad, not the Canadian advertiser.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

      A quick search found something about in the Real Estate Section of the NEW YORK Times.

    • Not a con man

      Your wrong. The NYT controls the adverstising on its page. You are confusing cable TV with the Web.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

        It is extremely unlikely that the NYT is determining every banner ad that gets linked from its site. Even if it does, TwoYen's point is nonetheless valid, any CAP advertising is almost certainly targeted to Canadian only IPs.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

          TY is correct. The common denominator is doubleclick.net, who aggregates web banners based on GeoIP, matching your physical location to your IP address. There's no story here.

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

          TY and ES is correct. The common denominator is doubleclick.net, who aggregates web banners based on GeoIP, matching your physical location to your IP address. There's no story here.

          • wilson

            Our media sucked into another wafergate….when will they learn

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

          TY and ES are correct. The common denominator is doubleclick.net, who aggregates web banners based on GeoIP, matching your physical location to your IP address. There's no story here.

  • wilson

    The PBO report was condemnation from start to finish….
    and Kevin Page makes a good case for Liberals to demand an election!
    now!

    • Raging Ranter

      Unfortunately for the Liberals, the polls make a demanding case for them to avoid an election at all costs.

      • wilson

        But but , Liberals have principles!

  • Anon in PQ

    Now why would he release this the Friday of the Thanksgiving long-weekend?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

    Page's whining that the government isn't keeping the ease of his job foremost in their minds, is an embassingly weak criticism. That is a heck of a lot of new spending is an very short period, if Page can't keep up, that is his fault.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

    Page's whining that the government isn't keeping the ease of his job foremost in their minds, is an embassingly weak criticism. That is a heck of a lot of new spending in an very short period, if Page can't keep up, that is his fault.

    • http://www2.macleans.ca/category/blogs/national/inside-the-queensway/ Kady O'Malley

      Did you read the report? I’m not sure how you expect him to be able to monitor the reporting process if the government refuses to provide him with the data that his office has requested. Would you dismiss it as ‘whining’ if Sheila Fraser, for instance, pointed to a similar lack of cooperation from a department that she was auditing?

      • kcm

        Everyone fears the wrath of She who must be obeyed Fraser :).

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

        For sure Sheila F will be looking particularly closely at this program…..when does she normally report?

        • http://www2.macleans.ca/category/blogs/national/inside-the-queensway/ Kady O'Malley

          Her report on the EAP seems to be tentatively scheduled for next fall.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

            Just curious Kady, can parliament request an emergency inquiry or something of the like with Sheila Fraser being questioned?

            A year is a long time to blow our money.

          • wilson

            Sheila Fraser would laugh at the suggestion that an inquiry into PROJECTIONS be held.
            You guys know absolutely nothing about accounting.

          • http://www2.macleans.ca/category/blogs/national/inside-the-queensway/ Kady O'Malley

            Which is, at least, in party why the Conservatives campaigned on, and eventually (sort of) created the Parliamentary Budget Office — to “provide independent analysis to Parliament on the state of the nation’s finances, the government’s estimates and trends in the Canadian economy; and upon request from a committee or parliamentarian, to estimate the financial cost of any proposal for matters over which Parliament has jurisdiction.” Given that, would you not agree that failing to provide the necessary data to the office is counterproductive for this government? Or, to put it in a context that you might be able to appreciate, imagine if this was a Liberal government. Would you still be so dismissive of this report?

          • wilson

            Kady, I am one of the few con partisans that defends Page and his job, when he stays inside his mandate and not 'appear' to be a tool for the opps to take partisan shots at the govt.
            You bet I want accountability from this government, but don't ask for the impossible.

            Until the fat lady sings, this stimulus spending can not be properly assessed, no matter who what when or where the data comes from.

            So Page can, as he has done, only compare Canada's progress REPORTING to the US progress REPORTING methods. We learned nothing except Page thinks the US reports it better.
            And yes they do, but I ask (because I don't know) does the US government control all the spending, or is a shared responsibility with the States?

            Remember, the govt numbers are an accumulation of 3 levels of govt reporting quarterly.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

            Why? Projections have rules, too, and the assumptions underlying the projections must be set out. If certain assumptions are pie in the sky dreaming, why can't she point that out?

            I think she won't simply because she has to do too much auditing on actual numbers to take the time for projections.

          • wilson

            'auditing on actual numbers to take the time for projections'
            Exactly, and anyone who has done cash flow projections for a bank knows,
            there is no way to 'accurately' assess cash flow projections.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

            Projections? Why can't the auditor general check something out right away? Perhaps if she did/could the former scandal would have been caught earlier.

            We have the makings of a new ADscam

          • wilson

            You think cash paid out to the provinces and municipalities is being stuffed into brown envelopes and funneled back into the CPC coffers?

          • kcm

            You don't have to. Not if you can buy folks off in the clear…sweet! Of course previous Liberal govts did exactly the same thing…which clearly justifies con behaviour…particularly when you ran on a platform of NOT being Liberals. Clearly politicians live and breath hypocrisy. It's a wonder they're ever able to reajust to the real world.

          • wilson

            Yes, next fall, when a fair assessment can be made.

            It is IMPOSSIBLE to assess progress on a massive project that
            1) gets data from the PROVINCES, which has collected data from the MUNICIPALITIES
            2) the projects are at multistages at the municiple and provincial levels,
            and reporting 'quarterly' after the fact
            3) most of the 'funds' were released the end of June, meaning the reporting function at all levels, for most projects, will START in september, at the municiple level, forwarded to the provinces, and THEN forwarded to the feds…..
            you are looking at least january before any real assessment can be made,
            and then, you only have 1/2 the picture.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/austinso austinso

            It is trivial to make a distinction between actual federal expenditures up until today (i.e. money out the door), allocated expenditures by project applied for to this date, and projected expenditures from this date forward as well as unallocated funds.

            By saying it is impossible, you are basically admitting that it is a shell game that can only be sorted out after the fact.

          • wilson

            Not a shell game, more like a moving target being chased to the finish line.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/austinso austinso

            Thank you for admitting that government finances under the CPC is all a crock of s**t.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

        I dismiss it as whining because his complaint is about the changing nature of a new and ad hoc process.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

        I dismiss it as whining because his complaint is about the changing nature of a new and ad hoc process. I haven't read anywhere that they are refusing to provide the information.

      • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

        I dismiss it as whining because his complaint is about the changing nature of a new and ad hoc process. I haven't read anywhere that they are refusing to provide the information. My criticism was directed at Page's particular complaint that titles were changing. That is something to be expected and he should be able to deal with.

        Page undermines his own credibility by including really weak complaints along with valid ones.

        • kcm

          Perceptions of whining and complaining are probably unavoidable to someone in Pages position…it's probably got to do with the changing nature of new and ad hoc process:)

        • an online reader

          by Kady O'Malley on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:57pm – As noted by Colleague Wherry earlier today, midway through the Toronto Star’s coverage of the all-but-buried-by-the-Coderre-Affair-and-don’t-think-for-a-second-that-was-a-coincidence plank walk by now former Conservative candidate Gordon Landon comes the not entirely astonishing news that the parliamentary budget officer is having some difficulty prying loose the numbers behind the government’s claim that some impressively large percentage of projects to be funded under the Canada Action! Plan are already underwa

          Ed_Sweeney 83p My real hope is that the reason they can't come up with the numbers quickly is that they are not going to spend it all, or failing that, that they take the time to not spend it in an all-together-hasty-and-reckless manner. How many times must we learn the debt lesson?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ed_Sweeney Ed_Sweeney

            Yes, my preference is that they do not spend it all. What does that have to do with Page's whining about titles?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/TheRealKuri TheRealKuri

    Was the portion of stimulus money devoted to advertising it not part of the Budget? I find these (not uncommon) references to "shifting money away from advertising to ____" puzzling because it's not as if the government can just – on the spot – decide to shift budgeted funds from one thing to another. There's a process and presumably by passing the Budget, Parliament approved that expenditure as well.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

      Parliament did give the government a $3 billion blank cheque. Remember, the one Mr. Harper threatened an election over at the end of February. It could be part of that money.

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

      Parliament did give the government a $3 billion blank cheque. Remember, the one Mr. Harper threatened an election over at the beginning of March (my, how things change)? It could be part of that money.

      • wilson

        What's changed?

  • hosertohoosier

    First they complain the money isn't going to Liberal ridings. Then they complain when we give 70 million to Bay Street firms to pitch talk up the stimulus. Egads, these peasants are never satisfied.

    • an online reader

      New York ad men on Bay St. ?

  • Terren

    Good point!

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

    You're onto something here… Look at Dufferin–Caledon, up until a couple months ago it was a safe seat for the Cons. MP Tilson dismissed municipal complaints that applications were being held up and stated on the record that he had no influence over these things and that it was likely the municipality's fault in screwing up their applications.

    Enter a 'celebrity' Liberal challenger by the name of Garth Turner and suddenly out pop the hero-sized cheques like no one's business. Coincidence? I might be inclined to agree. Considering the other 'coincidences' and anecdotal evidence piling up, I'm not so sure.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

    You're onto something here… Look at Dufferin–Caledon, up until a couple months ago it was a safe seat for the Cons. MP Tilson dismissed municipal complaints that applications were being held up and stated on the record that he had no influence over these things and that it was likely the municipality's fault in screwing up their applications.

    Enter a 'celebrity' Liberal challenger by the name of Garth Turner and suddenly out pop the hero-sized cheques and podium addresses like no one's business. Coincidence? I might be inclined to agree. Considering the other 'coincidences' and anecdotal evidence piling up, I'm not so sure.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

    You're onto something here… Take at Dufferin–Caledon. Up until a couple months ago it was considered a safe seat for the Cons. Several consecutive wins, long-sitting MP, history serving in the Ontario legislature. A sure-fire win in any coming election. MP Tilson dismissed municipal complaints that applications were being held up and stated on the record that he had no influence over these things and that it was likely the municipality's fault in screwing up their applications.

    Enter a 'celebrity' Liberal challenger by the name of Garth Turner and suddenly out pop the hero-sized cheques and podium addresses like no one's business. Coincidence? I might be inclined to agree. Considering the other 'coincidences' and anecdotal evidence piling up, I'm not so sure.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

    You're onto something here… Take Dufferin–Caledon. Up until a couple months ago it was considered a safe seat for the Cons. Several consecutive wins, long-sitting MP, history serving in the Ontario legislature. A sure-fire win in any coming election. MP Tilson dismissed municipal complaints that applications were being held up and stated on the record that he had no influence over these things and that it was likely the municipality's fault in screwing up their applications.

    Enter a 'celebrity' Liberal challenger by the name of Garth Turner and suddenly out pop the hero-sized cheques and podium addresses like no one's business. Coincidence? I might be inclined to agree. Considering the other 'coincidences' and anecdotal evidence piling up, I'm not so sure.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

    Ah – the self-promoting is getting lost in this discussion.

    Besides, in a recession, why the need for SO much spent on ads?

  • http://kathleenw@execulink.com Mark

    I believe KADY you will find Sheila Fraser wont get involved unless she has to as she is one of THEM.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      Scary, it's like invasion of the body snatchers.

  • wilson

    No Mark, Sheila Fraser would not get involved because the stimulus projects are a year away from completion.

    That would be like an electrical inspection on a house that has just poured the basement, not yet framed.

    I know commentors here want the government to be caught in an Adscam,
    but you'll just have to patiently wait it out.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

      Stimulus spending – peoplea are concerned about the expenditures on the current $56 million and growing cost of a self-promoting ad…………it needs to be looked into "right away". If not Fraser, then someone needs to.

  • an online reader

    Harper should have kept following Australian speeches / economic policy even after they booted out their Conservative /Republican Government . True Liberal economic policies made Australia miss the recession and now their buck is overtaking / passing ours .

  • wilson

    If it were a Liberal govt being dealt this report? A Lib govt or a Lib led coalition govt?
    With the later, I would be too busy with the Western separation thing to care.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

      The correct word is latter, which means later, but that's English for you.

      So you don't see any hypocrisy whatsoever in being totally appalled at a coalition government that includes "separatists", so appalled that you will work to separate a different part of the country? How does your mind work? Seriously, I'd like to understand because this is hardly the first time we've heard the scenario. As someone who stands for a united Canada no matter what, I'm genuinely interested.

      • kcm

        LOL. Cognitive dissonsnce in action. Just wait. Wilson will come back with: "but…but…that's completely different. My separation would be completely justified…"!!!

        • wilson

          Don't bother to read my posts kcm,
          Liberals aren't interested in the West, nothing to see here.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/austinso austinso

            Given that Alberta is absolutely incapable of doing anything with their money except bend over and give it to everybody else, there are legitimate reasons why advice on financial management from anyone within that region should be regarded as a complete joke and serious waste of time.

          • kcm

            Wilson i happen to be a westerner – are you suggesting only your pov counts out west? and stop talking about the west when all you mean is AB. There are plenty of libs and dippers in BC and in Alberta, Sas., and Man., for that matter. If we had PR that fact would be self-evident. Cons are such hypocrites. I spent a dozen or more years in AB listening to them whine about a liberal hegemony in Ottawa, meanwhile they've been running a one party state in AB for as long.

      • wilson

        the coalition 'replaced' 71 Western Canada MPs with 19 LibDipper MPs

        the coalition 'replaced' 10 Quebec MPs with 15 LibDipper + 49 BLOC MPs

        Western Canada went from 71 down to 19 MPS in government
        Quebec went up from 10 MPs to 64 MPS in a Canada-Quebec government

        Western Canada would have LOST 73% of their elected representatives in the coalition,
        while Quebec increased their representation X 6, six times more.

        Answer me honestly Jenn,
        What other region in Canada would have ever been treated that way,
        other than Western Canada?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

          Thanks for responding, Wilson, I appreciate it. I guess I hadn't given consideration to all the consequences of having a region only vote for one of the federal parties. And I can understand how angry you must be over it. I'm trying not to be snarky here, since I did ask it as a legitimate question and you answered in like vein. But the obvious answer, other than Western Canada, is Quebec before the Bloc. Perhaps I should temper that because I'm not a Quebecer and so I'm giving my perception, which may not be as close to reality as I think. But it seems to me the Bloc was successful in Quebec, not because so many wanted to separate, but because the Bloc would be sure to speak for Quebec. Much like you are perceiving your MPs, and only your MPs, would do. Do I have your feelings right? After all, "The West" as an entity could have voted for 71 MPs who were not part of the government in the past, so that would be the same end result (not talking about the anger you legitimately feel here, just the perceived "voice" in government) and come to think of it, there were Western separation murmurings in the past, too.

  • wilson

    Wrong, Australia's major trading partner is China, not the US.
    And that is the difference.

    • an online reader

      I can tell you are an economist from U of Calgary .. Air flight Vancouver to Beijing 5304 miles or 8536 km . Air flight Sydney to Beijing 5559 miles or 8947 km .

      Our economist conservative expert did 2 % stimulus spread over 2 years . Liberal policy in Australia 1 % stimulus while Harper was hiding behind Governor General's skirt telling us how blue our skys are . . Liberal policy in Australia was 4 % more stimulus while Harper was putting together a economic crisis budget even thou we were above all that . Harper is waffling on if he spent first 1 % stimulus and Australia is calculating need for more stimulus or not .

      China has no trouble keeping our stores stocked . Is Harper still poking a stick in China's eye ?

      • kcm

        Difference between someone who actually believes Keynesian policy will work and gets on with it. And someone who was in denial ; had to be threatened with a palace revolt, and belatedly comes to realise that being seen to hand out the lolly was in his and the country's interest. Down with faux liberals! Where did all the real consevatives go?Not to mention consevative policy.But i guess a politician's gotta do what a politician's gotta do!

  • André

    I ran by our middle of nowhere snowmobile club house the other day and saw the government put a 2'x8' EAP sign for a $10,000 stairs project. I wondered how much of the EAP is spent on advertising.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

    Signs are expensive these days, being made of cardboard and having those wooden handles. Who knows if the handles are gold and the wood is oak.

    • André

      I can't tell if you're being sarcastic and in what way but I can tell you that yes those signs are expensive. that 2×8 was a grand, easy. Its not the material but the laminate printing that's expensive

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