Categories: Capital Read, Inside the Queensway

Who's always got time for Tim Hortons?

by kadyomalley on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 3:03pm - 42 Comments

Jim Flaherty’s staff, that’s who!

According to lobby communications logs (and yes, ITQ wishes there was a slightly less clunky way to refer to it, but there just isn’t), earlier this week, Flaherty’s chief of staff Derek Vanstone and policy advisor Sophia Arvanitis met with a lobbyist for the Tim Hortons Advertising and Promotion Fund to discuss, of all things, the Ontario HST — something that federal Conservatives have been increasingly loath to laud, given the simmering disgruntlement that it has provoked on the part of their provincial PC cousins.

(Presumably, the subject didn’t come up when the prime minister dropped by Tim Hortons headquarters earlier this month to take credit for luring the company back to Canada with the promise of rock-bottom corporate tax rates.)

This being Ottawa, the coincidences don’t stop there, though: the lobbyist in question is Tom Trbovich, once the chief of staff to Brian Mulroney’s finance minister, Michael Wilson, who brought in the GST in the first place, and who was a senior advisor to Mulroney himself when the tax was first proposed in 1989. He left before it became law, but at least he can provide tea and sympathy to the current minister should the prime minister go ahead with what the NDP’s Nathan Cullen keeps insisting is his secret plan to induce an election by bringing in legislation to formalize the HST deal with British Columbia before the end of the year. (Seriously, does that make any sense to anyone at all? Because from the perspective of the government — or, really, any party other than the NDP, ITQ can’t think of a worse way to go down.)

Sorry, went off on a wee bit of a tangent there. Anyway — look! Donuts! Lobbyists! The HST! Share and enjoy!

UPDATE – This isn’t really an update, but an admission: ITQ has tried to get over it, but she can’t — it really, really unsettles her that there is no apostrophe in Tim Hortons. (For the record, Red Squiggle doesn’t seem terribly impressed with it either.)

Tags: and i didn't even mention christine elliott's views on the HST!, cue the kazoos, double double vision, Jim Flaherty, memories of GST battles past, six degrees of separation, still a small world after all, tom trbovich

More by kadyomalley

ahm

ITQ is on a serious Sirius Cybernetics Corporation tip.
Livebloggin Junkie

I wonder if the Tim's folks are asking for the HST to only kick in after a $4.27 like the PST does? If you buy a coffee, a donut and sandwich you pay PST but if you buy each item seperatly, no PST.

Maybe once upon a time the first Tim Horton store belonged to Tim which made it Tim Horton's store. But if the store is a Tim Horton then multiples would be Tim Hortons.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

Cue the Kazoos!
Double double vision!

Brilliant Kady! your tags have a way of making my coffee come up my nose.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

I agree with you that it would be a terrible idea for the Conservatives to structure their own demise by way of the HST. There is a real hate on for that tax brewing(sorry I couldn't help it, what with the Tim Horton's post and all.) However logic tends to go out the window when visions of majority governments cloud the view.
Gawd

all those ones who thought the GST cut was a bad idea, because they only save pennies on a cup of coffee are gonna love the HST
MJ Patchouli

Actually after the GST was cut, Marketplace ran around town and found that Tim Hortons, etc, were NOT giving the customer the few cents difference back — instead the GST cut saved consumers nothing, but put more $$$ into Corporate Evil Empire coffers.
politicsisall

Taxes! Don't we love this subject.
U of C's School of Public Policy guru, Jack Mintz, considered one of the world's most influential tax experts – really – shed some light on this subject in a speech this morning in Calgary. He said a major switch is needed to CUT income taxes and ADD consumption taxes (like a VAT) to keep Canada competitive for world capital investment. Otherwise we won't be able to pay the costs of the retired boomers without going into huge debt.. Even countries like China are cutting manufacturing and capital gains taxes. Look him up. Mintz – as in mince pie – Not!
http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

Agreed. The business' are the only ones that were positively effected by the tax cut. It did nothing for consumers. Well thats not true… it did significantly raise our federal debt.
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

Agreed. The business' were the only ones that were positively effected by the tax cut. It did nothing for consumers. Well thats not true… it did significantly raise our federal debt.

http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

How much did the 2% loss if GST cost Ottawa again? Can you support any cuts in taxes?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

"Beginning in 2006, the Conservatives cut the Goods and Services Tax, in two steps, to 5 per cent from 7 per cent, a move that now costs $11 billion annually in lost revenue"

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/federalbudget/…

Yes I can support tax cuts. Not consumption taxes, but rather personal income tax. That variety puts more in my pocket that allows me to spend, spend, spend. The Gst cut neither encouraged nor discouraged my purchases. If they were looking for ways to stimulate the economy, IMHO I don't think the GST was the way to go.

http://www.intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

How much did the 2% loss GST cost Ottawa again? Can you support any cuts in taxes?

http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

Tea and sympathy? Don't you mean Steeped Tea?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

Eww, no, the stuff's cold.

CAPS

Jack Mintz was also the proponent of something that became known as a Carbon Tax. A great idea that Canadians should consider. Now if only some politician were brave enough to take up that cause.
Sea Otter

Yep – the GST cut was, "only a few pennies", but now the HST is about to threaten civilization itself. Please.

The reality is that there are very few everyday consumer items that will be affected. Fast food is really about the only one. Go out on a Saturday errand run, and you will find that every item you buy at the drugstore or hardware store features both taxes. Even at the grocery store now, the list of "snack food" items on which both GST and PST is charged is a long one. Yes, the cup of coffee you buy at Starbucks may go up, but anyone who dismissed the GST cut as a "gimmick" that saved, "only a few pennies" cannot complain about that.

http://intensedebate.com/people/avr avr

Even at the grocery store now, the list of "snack food" items on which both GST and PST is charged is a long one.

If, however, you eat a more or less balanced diet as Health Canada recommends, then you probably don't buy a lot of things to which both apply, currently. The HST makes preparing healthy food from scratch more expensive. How's that for perverse disincentives?
http://www.intensedebate.com/people/avr avr

Even at the grocery store now, the list of "snack food" items on which both GST and PST is charged is a long one.

If, however, you eat a more or less balanced diet as Health Canada recommends, then you probably don't buy a lot of things to which both apply, currently. The HST would thus make preparing healthy food from scratch more expensive. How's that for perverse disincentives?

matt

It's only a disincentive to the extent that it modifies behaviour.
Sea Otter

Gatorade drink crystals are taxed – that is the one that always slays me.

I actually don't believe in this silly game of having bureaucrats deciding what food items get taxed, and which don't. It would actually make more sense to apply sales tax to all food items across the board. Now, before everyone shrieks about how this would impact the poor, I would then raise the basic personal exemption significantly to compensate. Bumping up the basic personal exemption is the best tax cut – everyone benefits, but the benefits are felt more proportionally by lower income earners. We tax income at a ridiculously low level in Canada – even with the increases in the basic personal exemption in recent years, Canada's is still very low relative to other developed nations.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

Very good point. When looking at how much our upper income earners pay in relation to the U.S., nobody ever seems to look at the lower income earners. So the argument that we make the rich pay for our "socialist agenda" is sort of silly.

tobyornottoby

Can't speak for the provinces that are close to harmonizing but bthat's not the case in Manitoba. Books, for instance, are PST exempt in Manitoba, so HST would increase the cost of reading. NDP government is resisting HST so far, and has other allies like livestock producers and realtors (not their traditional base):

"In Manitoba, the PST does not currently apply to items such as farm supplies, children's clothing, books, realtor fees, gym memberships, lawn-cutting services or taxi fares, among many other things." … http://tinyurl.com/ylnvot7
http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

It's not the every day consumer items that are concerning. It's the big ticket items like houses which the PST didn't apply to before.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

Did you know (I didn't) that GST isn't applicable on "used" houses? Just the ones straight from the builder.

dan in van

But its applicable on many of the services involved in purchasing/maintaining a house, like lawyers fees, contractors etc.

an online reader

gst cut ? hst increase ? Corp don't hardly pay taxes in Harper Country .

Debt is a tax increase for private citizens under Harper .

2001-02 – $ 512 billion ; 2007-08 – $ 459 billion ; 2009-10 $492 billion ; 2010-11 – $522 billion ; 2011-12 -$535 billion ; 2012-13 $542 billion

Compare Liberal Australian economic management to Harpers pathetic job

Austalia gdp $773 billion debt by 2013 $300 billion
Canada gdp $1.2 trillion debt by 2013 $542 billion
n.b. Australias economic management & stimulus policy caused them to miss Harpers recession .

an online reader

"n.b. Australias economic management & stimulus policy caused them to miss Harpers recession . "

Harper increased defense spending from $ 6 billion to $ 18 billion / year , defense capital projects to $ 200 billion over 20years (contracts being signed daily & $ 30 billion on Afghan punching above his weight . Australia paid off debt .to zero .

When stimulus was required Harper says he spent !% of GDP / Australia did spend 1 % of gdp last Oct , ; 4 % of gdp while Harper was studing budget requirements last Feb. and are considering more at this moment while Harper publishes phony report cards .
an online reader

USA & Australia got rid of their regressive extreme right wing anti enviromental regeimes . Will they walk out on Harper at Copenhaugan ?

Bonnie n

Walk out on Billy Shears never! And just what does this have to do with the Horton's lobbyist?

Although we could talk about CCS and Tim Flannery and stuff not fluff but to the topic of restaurants and their worry over HST – it is a concern for small business. Not sure that BC Hydro is lobbying the government over HST because their consumers are impacted big time.

an online reader

Timmy is moving to Australia as their consumers have money .
an online reader

Sorry for the disturbing posts . M.P.s wrote all rules and regulations that govern themselves . How can a person respect a Lobby notice when all Conservative policy (esp. tax & environmental) is laid out / fine tuned in closed door business meetings Country wide ?

Check out Freedom of Info reg.s – M.P.s are exempt thus they can bombard us with 10%er's anonymously .

Check out " Under the Conflict of Interest Act, reporting public office holders are required to submit a confidential report to the Commissioner within 60 days after the date of their appointment. Once the report is received, an advisor from the Commissioner’s Office contacts the reporting public office holder about any compliance measures that may be required of them and these measures must be completed within 120 days after the date of their appointment. The same requirement does not currently exist under the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons." Thats why after a year several Cabinet member or big names from all parties exept Bloc are outstanding .(Oct 5th -17 out of 308 )

an online reader

How can you people pay each other homage with stars and plus points ? Do you realize that Harper gave Arar $ 10 million to stay out of Court & get a Confidenality agreement ?

Doyou realize that rhe savior Watchdog out of the Somolia abuse scandal has been tied up by Government lawyers for two years to protect who ?

Grammar nazi

"That's who", because 'who' is the subject.

http://www2.macleans.ca/category/blogs/national/inside-the-queensway/ Kady O'Malley

Fixed, with thanks, and a face suitably red with shame.

http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

Kady, I like your posts because even when you criticize this government (and, yes, there is lots to criticize) you are always fair and non-partisan. Keep up the good work.

an online reader

You are so right . Most that criticizes Government must be partisan . If Chretien or Mulroney did it first that would prove your point ? beyond any doubt .

knick

Isn't it up to the provinces to decide what to exempt from HST?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

No, apparently not. If the GST applies, the HST applies. Perhaps the provinces could fight that harder than they maybe do, but this way they can pass the blame along, so why would they?
http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

There are TWO governments in on the harmonization. One would assume they would both have input.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Harbles Harbles

Bang on Sir!
You have crystallized the sticking point and controversy over the HST precisely.
Who decides what currently PST exempt items are increased via HST?
Is the current plan that all items that currently include GST but are PST exempt will increase by ~7%(or local pst) ?
Provinces exempted certain Items to achieve intended economic benefits. Across the board acceptance of federal standards of exempt status is a relinquishing of Provincial Power.
At the minimum a series of studies and negotiating meetings rather than a one time lump sum payment are what's needed.
The Provincial and Federal levels of Government may have reached an 'understanding' but I believe only an informed public choice is the proper way to proceed.
So tell the people in plain language what the benefits and costs will be of implementing the HST then get their consent.
What a concept. Let's call it democracy.

knick

Seems straightforward enough. So how did it become so complicated once politicians figured out they could score political points by making it out to be something it's not? (rhetorical, of course)

http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Harbles Harbles

Bang on Sir! (knick)
You have crystallized the sticking point and controversy over the HST precisely.
Who decides what currently PST exempt items are increased via HST?
Is the current plan that all items that currently include GST but are PST exempt will increase by ~7%(or local pst) ?
Provinces exempted certain Items to achieve intended economic benefits. Across the board acceptance of federal standards of exempt status is a relinquishing of Provincial Power.
At the minimum a series of studies and negotiating meetings rather than a one time lump sum payment are what's needed.
The Provincial and Federal levels of Government may have reached an 'understanding' but I believe only an informed public choice is the proper way to proceed.
So tell the people in plain language what the benefits and costs will be of implementing the HST then get their consent.
What a concept. Let's call it democracy.