Categories: Andrew Coyne, Capital Read

There's a shortage of vaccines, and it's all the fault of [Your Government Here]

by Andrew Coyne on Tuesday, November 3, 2009 4:57pm - 142 Comments

Obama will fix H1N1 vaccine shortage: White House

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. President Barack Obama is frustrated with shortages in the availability of the H1N1 flu vaccine but the problem was being tackled, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Tuesday.

“We’re working each and every day to fix this,” Gibbs told a daily news briefing.

Gosh. You mean other countries are having trouble delivering vaccines on time, too? It’s not just a matter of the Harper government’s incompetence or miserliness? It’s just, you know, a logistical nightmare ?

Apparently so:
H1N1 Spreading Faster Than Vaccine, CDC Says
Children swine flu deaths spike in US amid vaccine shortage
Behind The H1N1 Vaccine Shortage
H1N1 vaccine shortage could be political pitfall for Obama
Critics say vaccine woes show administration’s lack of preparedness
CDC Chief ‘Frustrated’ By Swine Flu Vaccine Shortage
H1N1 vaccine shortage stings politically

Other parellels: while Republicans charge the Obama administration with mishandling the epidemic, vaccine shortages are also cropping up as local issues — just as in every province of Canada, the opposition is blaming the provincial government.

And of course, on either side of the border, there’s someone ready with the same cheap, inflammatory analogy:
Liberal launches political storm by comparing H1N1 response to hurricane Katrina
Limbaugh: H1N1 vaccine shortage “ought to be Obama’s Katrina”

Tags: dubiousness, H1N1, Swine Flu

More by Andrew Coyne

http://intensedebate.com/people/psiclone psiclone

careful Andrew .. you are perilously close to using common sense and dealing with reality – this would put you at definite odds with a lot of hyper – uber – partisan harper haters who want to puff themselves up with fake self-righteousness and false indignation so they can rant against someone and blame them for something !

Bec

Besides, they have to cover up for the fact that we would be in the middle of an election right now. Unbelievable!

ripples

we were in one last year instead of getting ready for a recession. Oh yea we were not going to have one of those or a deficit according to harper the liar.

ripples

And why do we care why the US is running short. Sounds more like turtling again a favorite Tory sport.

http://fullyoffset.blogspot.com Jon

I'm pretty sure that in this case, like most others:

HAVING THE LEADERS PANIC CAUSES MORE HARM THAN HELP!

What are you expecting? A crying Harper on the TV saying that everyone is going to die because he personally failed everyone?

You've got to be Pols101 right?

http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

I am flummoxed by people's complaints. As far as I can tell, only people who don't use our health services are chuntering about government's performance to date. You would think, listening to complainants, that our health services operate perfectly all the time and this latest effort is somehow an aberration. Odd opening hours, long waits and not enough supplies all sound a lot like how our health services operate all the frakin' time.

http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

Good point. I've never been to a clinic or emergency room without a long wait. In fact, the typical emerg room wait is many hours. Yet somehow these line-ups are supposed to be news.

http://intensedebate.com/people/john_g2708 john g

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. President Barack Obama is frustrated with shortages in the availability of the H1N1 flu vaccine but the problem was being tackled, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Tuesday.

“We’re working each and every day to fix this,” Gibbs told a daily news briefing.

Gosh. You mean other countries are having trouble delivering vaccines on time, too? It’s not just a matter of the Harper government’s incompetence or miserliness?

You clearly missed the point Andrew. Obama is pissed at Harper too because of the H1N1 vaccine shortage. After all, it is all his fault.

But way to go Liberals! You've matched Rush Limbaugh on the rhetoric-o-meter. I guess Aaron Wherry must have missed that one too. Shocker.

http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

Hey, it balances out the pedophile remarks by the Cons. Even now….move on.
Cow

The opposition party has stooped to the level of doing what another opposition party did! You'd better feel bad, Republicans or Liberals!

http://intensedebate.com/people/PeteTong PeteTong

It's funny how last week the problem was noboby could be bothered to get the vaccine.

If Hedy Fry's legislative assistant is reading this blog, here's some inflammatory anologies for him/her.
HINI is Harper's Sudetenland.

Here's one for the conservatives"
We've seen the result of Coalitions in the past. On January 30, 1933, Hitler became Chancellor of Germany after an election in which the Nazi's did not receive the highest percentage of votes. How? A coalition…

Sorry for the third reich references…
http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

Just as H1N1 is a global pandemic, I'm sure that H1N1 politicization is a global phenomenon.

As Germany launched its mass-vaccination program against the H1N1 flu virus on Monday, the government found itself fending off accusations of favoritism because it was offering one vaccine believed to have fewer side effects to civil servants, politicians and soldiers, and another, potentially riskier vaccine to everyone else.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,19…

http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

"it was offering one vaccine believed to have fewer side effects to civil servants, politicians and soldiers, and another, potentially riskier vaccine to everyone else."

That's crazy. All pols and bureaucrats get the good stuff while everyone else can take their chances with the not tested adjuvants? I can't believe pols thought that would be good idea. If they pulled that here, I would be getting out my pitchfork and heading for Ottawa.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

It's not that cut and dry. It's not even clear that the vaccine administered to politicians/bureaucrats/military (Celevapan) is actually better than the other one (Pandemrix). From the article:

"The Pandemrix vaccine can't be recommended for pregnant women or young children because it has an increased risk of side effects. Pandemrix has an adjuvant which hasn't been tested sufficiently up until now," Alexander Kekulé, a virologist at the University of Halle, tells TIME. "Celvapan is a whole-virus vaccine, which has fewer side effects than Pandemrix, but it leads more often to fever or local swelling when compared with the normal seasonal-flu vaccine," he adds. Although Kekulé calls the government's handling of the vaccination program a "scandal," he says government officials and soldiers are not necessarily getting a better deal with Celvapan. "Neither Celvapan nor Pandemrix are ideal," he says.

http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

I think it is very cut and dried. Would you want vaccine that has been tested, and proven safe, or the one that is unknown? If neither are ideal, I wonder which vaccine Mr Kekule would choose.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

Guess what…. most Canadians are getting the "unknown" adjuvanted version, just like most Germans.

The Government of Canada (GOC) purchased from GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) a small quantity of non-adjuvanted H1N1 flu vaccine (approx. 1.8 million doses) as part of its total order of 50.4 M doses. On October 26, 2009, the GOC announced that it had purchased an additional 200,000 doses of unadjuvanted vaccine from CSL Australia that will be available to Canadians earlier than the order from GSK.

The purchase of non-adjuvanted vaccine is a precautionary measure for pregnant women as no clinical data of the safety of adjuvanted vaccine in this group is available.
http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

"most Canadians are getting the "unknown" adjuvanted version"

That's why I am not getting one, I am not all that keen on being a guinea pig in their trials.

All I hear are experts saying, 'lets put some mercury into your blood system and see what happens. What could possibly go wrong."

And what I find even odder is that I did not know, or even hear of, adjuvants until two weeks ago and now it's all people talk about.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

You would get more mercury in your blood from eating a can of tuna. Literally. We're talking about extremely tiny quantities of mercury here.
http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

"Following a CBC investigation that found mercury levels above the allowed limit, Health Canada issued new consumption guidelines on Monday for canned albacore tuna for women and children. The tuna may routinely exceed Canada's mercury guidelines, the investigation has learned, but until Monday, Health Canada failed to warn consumers about the potential danger." CBC, Feb 20 '07

I don't eat tuna either.
lovinglife

That's sad, live it up my friend…

PassThePork

Why did Health Canada not approve the vaccine earlier and why did the order not get placed earlier?

Back in April/May it was known this would be a *big deal*. Why wait until the end of the first week of August to place orders?

Why were not schools provided vaccine at the start of school? Sorry, but November, December is far too late, for a novel flu virus. One kid sick in the school system more or less means the entire school system catches it, and sure 'nuff, that is exactly what has happened.

We can blame the federal government for not being farther ahead of the curve with orders; we can blame them for faulty messaging coming from Health Canada; we can blame them for the sequencing of orders (stopping production of one type for another) and perhaps even the nature of the orders (adjuvenated vs plain). These are all areas where the federal government, ***and no one else*** holds jurisdiction and responsibility.

And yes, they flubbed it.

Thank goodness that this year's version of H1N1 isn't a true killer. But I won't thank the federal government for that one. All they've done is underscore how woefully unprepared they are to act quickly enough in the face of a true killer pandemic virus.

Ted

We don't know how this pandemic will play out. Like everything from the government here, there is mixed messaging. Some say if it would have hit big, it would have done so already (kind of like the recession?); others say we won't know how bad until springtime.

Regardless, I really shudder to think what would happen with this government in place if we didn't have half a year warning and we had a truly bad epidemic on our hands.

Orson Bean

Liberals Good, Tories Bad!

I think I read that somewhere once. Or something like it . . .

ripples

Orson……it goes like this. TORY TIMES ARE TOUGH TIMES. We may have to substitute deadly for tough.
PassThePork

Simple minded retort?

I don't give a damn who is in power, but I do care about what the government of the day does with that power. In this case they have failed. The Chretien government wisely put Shire/GSK on retainer almost a decade ago; with that advantage in our pocket, why did not the current government fully lever this business relationship and get the damn orders in earlier? This is a simple question – the key question – which no one in government has yet answered.

http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

They have answered it, which was that the advice at the time was to produce the seasonal vaccine first…you know the advice from experts, and then pivot to H1N1. Given that normal flu season doesnt really start until November this seemed right at the time.

But this isnt so much about shortages of vaccine, this is more about delivery of that vaccine…and if you read this article

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=21…

You'll see that Ontario is the outlier here in delivering the vaccine, the other provicnes are much further ahead. But the two levels of government are wisely deciding not to criticize each other, since it was a joint plan and nobody voiced objections earlier.

You may want to ask why Ontario is having such trouble.
Maureen

Wisely put them on retainer? In return for a $56,000 'donation' to the LPC.

Besides isn't the LPC current president complaining about the idiot government that sole sourced the production, forgetting that the idiot government was his own party's.

Mike514

Most shocking is that the Liberals are using Republican talking points…

Limbaugh and Alf Apps are apparently on the same wavelength.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

It's ironic, isn't it?

Orson Bean

I'd always thought that Rush Limbaugh and Warren Kinsella have much more in common with one another than either one of them would realize or care to admit.

That's not meant as a compliment to either of them, BTW . . .

ripples

Kinsella is trying to mimick Harper. He's better at it than the master,though. That's the trouble when you create something.

Orson Bean

The irony (or at least one of them) is that Kinsella refers to Harper as "Angry Man". Meanwhile, Kinsella's website is one constant helping of vitriol and bile. Newsflash Warren: the Angry Man is the fella you see when you look in the mirror in the morning.
lovinglife

Kinsella is an idiot, oops, did I say that out loud…it was my inside voice, I swear!

catherine

What shortage?

Leona Aglukkaq said there is "not a shortage" of vaccine

Ted

When people refer to vaccine shortage, I think they are referring to the shortage that Aglukkaq and Canada’s Chief Public Health Officer said they were "disappointed" about and blamed on GlaxoSmithKline, and panicking parents.

catherine

oh, the so-called shortage induced by panicking parents. ;-)

The point is Coyne may see some parallel to the US, but really our government is the true master at misinforming, misspeaking, misleading,…

lovinglife

You watch too much Xfiles,lady!

http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

If you want the vaccine you can get it. Especially if your local doctor is carrying it. If you arent in the high risk category you dont have too much to worry about, if you are there is vaccine around.

And by US thanksgiving Canada will be awash in vaccine, just watch. We will be back to the not enough uptake issue again, you heard it here first.

lovinglife

So true!!

http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

Of course the fact that America doesn't have universal public health care has no bearing on this equivalency right?
Ted

Oh, if only we had some independent group of people with skills and experience to assess whether or how much our government is screwing up royally.

Oh, wait… maybe there is.

OTTAWA — The federal department charged with disaster planning is itself a disaster when it comes to preparing for emergencies as varied as the swine flu pandemic, floods and terrorist attacks, says Auditor General Sheila Fraser.

"We found that Public Safety Canada has not exercised the leadership necessary to co-ordinate emergency management activities," Fraser concluded in her latest report, tabled in the House of Commons on Tuesday.

The full damning report on public health emergency failings of the government is here.
Ted

The full AG report, which covers a lot more incompetence in other areas as well is here. It includes some damning accountability statements on Infoway, the federal eHealth arm and particularly damning statements on Harper's handling of our income tax system.

What's more, according to the AG report, the government agrees with her.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

"Particularly damning"? What goofy hyperbole.

What statement from "Chapter 3—Income Tax Legislation" did you find most "damning"?

Jim

Who would have thought? Andrew Coyne jumping to the defense of the Conservatives for screwing up again!

Still jockying for that Senate appointment I see!

lovinglife

They didn't screw up…

stephen.reeves

We all know that the Liberals could have vaccinated 30 million Canadians the first week, it is so simple!.

http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

sure, they would have bought the untested Chinese vaccine and had people going to Bennett, Duncan's and Fry's contituency office to get innoculated.

Chris

there is a difference between Obama and Harper tho. Harper had said that there were going to be enough for the next week, then early next month then Christmas. so if the intel on when the vaccine IS NOT THERE then don't make a prediction that people are going to have to base their plans off of

Bec

Ah no…that could be Carolyn though? Pay particular attention to the December/Christmas parts…..tantalizing!

http://www.canada.com/Health/Give+Canada+excess+v…
http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

Quote to support your charge, perhaps, Chris?

Ted

DOH! Cue the "Fraser is just a Liberal appointee trying to grab publicity who hates the Conservatives" tin foil hat brigade.

Opposition joins AG in criticizing government's pandemic planning

”OTTAWA — The federal department charged with disaster planning is itself a disaster when it comes to preparing for emergencies as varied as the swine flu pandemic, floods and terrorist attacks, says Auditor General Sheila Fraser.

"We found that Public Safety Canada has not exercised the leadership necessary to co-ordinate emergency management activities," Fraser concluded in her latest report, tabled in the House of Commons on Tuesday.”

“The department, which was created in 2003, has yet to finalize a Federal Emergency Response Plan and appears to be offering no guidance to other federal departments in developing their own sub-plans, the auditor concluded.”

“the department has spent only one-third of its annual $58.5-million budget for emergency preparedness in the last two years.”
http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

Shorter Andrew Coyne: The buck stops nowhere.

http://coyne kc

Yeah, this is one of the first really dumb posts i’ve seen AC put out. Sure everyone else is having problems getting this stuff out. Sure the opposition’s playing politics like the Republicans – some of it pretty sleazy. So, now what? We shoudn’t take a look at whether our govt screwed up – just because evryone else is having problems? Certainly it’s an arguement for cutting the govt some slack. But that’s all it is.

http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

I knew Coyne would go the opposite of what most feel about it. I think he does it on purpose.

1918 – there were no medications and what 50 million people died?

2009 – the idea is to "prevent" what happened in 1918.

I saw a journalist from London (England) say this morning that there situation is going smoothly – the government have allowed doctors to receive the vaccine and people go by appointment. Gosh, how organized. Who'd know better than your doctor if you have an underlying health issue.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

Most GPs carry patient lists of 2-4000 names, most of whom they never see for years
at a time. GPs in NS were offered small amounts of vaccine for their practice. Most had
the good sense to refuse it. They had no storage capacity and no way of dealing with the
necessary paperwork involved. And no time to deal with it along with their normal practice
case load.
http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

Give me a freakin' break. There is absolutely no comparison to 1918. The current swine flu has a death rate that is equivalent to the seasonal flu we have very single year. And this has nothing to do with the vaccine.

There has been an estimated 5000 deaths worldwide, in a globe with 6 billion people. That's 1 out of every 1.2 million people! The 1918 flu killed 50 million out of 1.6 billion people, that's 1 out of every 120 people.

The 1918 flu killed between 2 and 20% of those infected. That's between 1 in 5 and 1 in 50. Meanwhile, the swine flu death rate is the same as any seasonal flu! The swine flu kills between 0.007 to 0.045% of those infected! That's between 1 in 2222 and 1 in 14285.

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE…

You are comparing an illness that kills at most 1 in 2000 with one that killed as many as 1 in 5.

This is turning into madness.
http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

Given that you live in Ontario you might want to ask your provincial government why they effed up the clinics so bad. too few and overloaded with administration. More employees doing "registration" and que management than putting needles in arms. Additionally, having experienced it myself, those clinics included a significant amoutn of administartion linked to creating an electronic vaccination record…..problem is registraition at one statuion didnt mean that the record showed up at the computer at the vaccination station (my experience)…it all had to be manually entered, even though they swiped the health card. E health record tail wagging the dog.

Now that vaccinations are finally going through doctors offices it is going much smoother. The federak goivernment has squat to do with any of that. Other provinces delivered vaccine at a much much higher rate……why is Ontario the outlier here.

http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

My folks live just outside of Toronto. They got their shot last week, so that's good for them (one has a valid health condition putting them up the priority list, but the centre was in a nobody-turned-away mode anyways at the time).

The observation of administration overload fits with their experience, too. But it was the reverse. Not enough data-entry clerks, with the result of nurses waiting for bums in seats. And all for the entry of info on a questionnaire into a computer system. Public health rationale for that? God only knows.

I wonder if Disney has ever published a manual on dealing with massive throughput of large numbers of people. Automate as much as you can; have security / crowd control handy; entertain or inform the crowd in the antechamber so they don't even realize they're waiting for the main event; fill the "theatre" completely and quickly; do your thing; empty the theatre completely and quickly.

How would that work for mass vaccine? Maybe have three or four "theatres," each with some usher or security attendant. Info video outside of room for the thirty-ish in the assigned crowd. When room is empty and ready, fill the room with people. Instruct people on rolling up their sleeve. Nurses come in and jab everyone. Nurses leave to repeat in next room. Observe that all tolerate the shot, attend to the few who need help (needle-phobic queasiness, etc…). Empty the room. Repeat. Stagger the above in the three (or four?) rooms so that the "stars" (the nurses) can fly in and fly out, serving the most people as fast as possible.

http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

Good suggestions, they could definitely have thought it through better. But they make the cattle move as opposed to the branders.

I was at Vaughn with my kids (yes the have athsma) on day 1. There were more clerks that arm stickers and then when we got to the arm sticker our records had be reentered. The reason was unclear.

Full process was
1) Wait in line for 3 hours
2) Stop 1, get a number, like a bakery
3) Wait in the registration inventory pool for 90 minutes
4) 15 minutes to register
5) Wait in the needle inventory pool for an hour
6) Be told to go home and come back tomorrow in a special line
7) Came back next day, shuttled in and out wihtin an hour.

They can only do 1400 a day.

http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

Sounds about like the number who can see Mickey's Magic Something-or-Other at the Magic Kingdom in a couple hours. Hmmm.
http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

Once again true, but this is about making a single clinic mor effecient, then there is breadth of access.

While supply is linked to breadth of access, at the beginning we have had less access and inefficient access rather than short supply. As you expand access we might bump up against supply as you "fill the pipe" but right now it looks like shipments in the millions of doses a week have begun again so we will be back to the supply of access rather than just supply

RagingRanter

OntarioTown, do you have any clue how busy doctor's offices are right now? Everyone with a sniffle is showing up at the doctor's office wanting to be checked out for swine flu. My girlfriend's parents went yesterday for appointments they had scheduled months ago – and they waited five hours. The waiting room was overflowing – a handful of sick people and dozens of others who only thought they were.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

The common factor in all this is the mountain of misinformation brought to us by the
ever-so-helpfully ignorant media.
Is the US shortage derived from single-source contracting ?
What is the price point ? How does it compare ?
Is anyone monitoring the possibility of cross-border shipments ?

Everyone can find someone to blame. But the public health functionaries aren't
cooking the stuff up in the department microwaves.
Orson Bean

I imagine that our government could have done a better job. Having said that, though, I find some of the whining and bitching and armchair quarterback stuff here to be symptomatic of a particularly modern disease that infects much of our public discourse and debate: the belief (usually not acknowledged at a conscious level) that human existence is utterly perfectable, that we have all the means at our disposal today to perfectly deal with every problem, if only we "got it right". And I swear, 100 years ago, people did not think this way. It is a patently insane way to look at things. I don't think I'm apologizing for the government to say that this is a massive project, a lot of people are freaked out and panicking, and things are going to go wrong, there are going to be lineups and shortages and all that. Anyone who thinks or asserts otherwise is daft.

Curt

Remember we are going to stop climate change too.

Orson Bean

And crime. Don't forget that.

If we only got our justice system right, we could eradicate crime. (Right-wing/Law & Order Version)

OR

If we only had the right social programs in place, we could eradicate crime. (Left Wing/Bleeding Heart version)

kcm

In the main i agree with you except…one question i want answered. Did the govt or the health authorities help to panic people with mixed messages to say the least. The public was castigated for not planning to get vaccinated and now we are told there is a shortage. So, who screwed up? Granted some the panic/concern is certainly due to promonent coverage of the deaths of youngsters.

RagingRanter

They were worried not enough people would get the vaccine. They erred by stressing that we all SHOULD get it, as opposed to urging patience and caution. A couple of flu deaths of young children hit the media at just the right (wrong) time, and the "perfect storm" resulted. Call that an excuse if you want. It's also a fact of recent history. Health officials are admiting as much. So yeah, mistakes were made, but it's difficult to put the blame on anyone. Pandemics weren't designed to be well-organized, easily managed events.

http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

Pandemics weren't designed to be well-organized, easily managed events.

Exactly.

ripples

If the fetal position wasn't the best method of response by this government we wouldn't have the hystrionics.

jarrid

OB – Agree with your comment, but with the Liberals currently on life-support, they need to milk any issue, no matter how tendentious, in order to revive their rather diseased poll numbers.

That's what this opposition stridency is all about. The oppostion in other countries proffer construtive and measured criticism. Here you have the Liberal opposition critic frothing at the mouth like she could be in need of a vaccine herself, given her rabid behaviour.

Orson Bean

You just cued in my head a visual from David Cronenberg's cult classic movie "Rabid". Awesome. The first restricted movie I ever snuck into. Who knows, maybe this H1N1 thing will provide a jumping-off point for Cronenberg to return to his cinematic roots . . .

jarrid

Oh and one more thing. Is it just me, or do others think that it is absolutely pathetic that a member of Michael Ignatieff's staff would be interviewed on CBC's The National while in line to be vaccinated himelf, passing himself of as Joe Citizen and attacking the government for not planning better.

So you know, the individual in question Mark Sakamoto, was – wait for it – formerly a lawyer with the CBC. That is positively outrageous. Last time the Libs pulled a stunt like that was during the last campaign, when Garth Turner brought along CPAC door-knocking in his riding and he went and knocked on his campaign manager's door. The difference being that CPAC was hood-winked but here, it looks pretty cosy that Ignatieff's staffer, a former CBC type, got his mug on the National. Shame on the Liberals for that. As for the CBC, they have so little credibility that I don't think stuff like can actually damage their reputation any further. After all this is the media outlet, the CBC, whose reporter Krista Erickson fed questions to the Liberals during the Mulroney inquiry.

Ted

So now Liberals aren't allowed to line up to get vaccine like everyone else???

Seriously. What a lame attack.

I mean, he's a dad with his family lined up for a flu shot and he happens to be a Liberal. I mean, maybe if he said something critical you could pretend to have some justification for your faux outrage. But all he said was he was surprised by how disorganized it was. That's not even directed at Harper.

I certainly hope that this is faux outrage I should say. It would be even more pathetic if this is the kind of thing that gets you outraged but the failures of our government to protect our public health doesn't.

http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

I assume jarrid is outraged about the obvious conflict of interest that a "lawyer" doesn't seem to understand exists. At least Peter MAnsbridge understood how wrong it was and apologized on tonight's National news. As for Iggy's "legal adviser", I suggest that he go back to law school.

Ted

So Liberals now aren't allowed to speak or stand in line to get the vaccine. I see.

Seriously, though, what did he say that was even about Harper, let alone critical?

Wouldn't that have been kinda the point if he was a, cough cough, "plant"?

jarrid

Ted, you're so reliably in the tank for the Liberals, I frankly wouldn't be surprised that you're a Liberal staffer yourself writing a furious, if vacuous, defence of a fellow colleague. I'm sure Mark's a nice guy. His only defence here is that he's a little slow on the uptake. But if that's the case, what's he doing working for Ignatieff in the first place?

Ted

Talk about bizarre conspiracy theories. And silly attempts to change the channel.

So the Liberals sent him, his wife and his kid all the way to Toronto, to stand in line for hours, just so he could say something mildly impunative about the clinic he was at.

I'm not even defending him. I don't see what there is to defend. I'm just trying to understand what is the point of the argument that he is a "plant". I mean, if he was a "plant", wouldn't he say something about the Harper mismanagement of the vaccine order? or maybe even something critical about Harper? That's woulda been kinda the point, no?
jarrid

For those readers who are interested, go to National Newswatch where they've linked to the video. Ignatieff's staffer is clearly critical of the government. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Sakamoto knew the CBC reporter. The whole thing is way too much of a coincidence.

I hope the Conservatives complain about this like they did with Krista Erikson. The CBC ombudsman will no doubt exonerate those involved like they did in the Erikson matter, but it'll just add to their embarassment for getting caught.

Ted, this whole thing so clearly smells. Sakamoto shouldn't have agreed to the interview. How was he chosen out of thousands and thousands of Canadians taking flu shots? Did I mention that before joining Ignatieff's team, he was a CBC lawyer. I can see why you say you're "not even defending him".

Ted

Jarrid:

You are really out there on this one.

In the "interview" of 4 seconds, he said "Seems to me that there was a lot of lag time. We knew about this coming down the pipe for a long time. So I wonder why it is as disorganized as it is."

The lead in to that quotation was about the long lines at the clinic and how the province is setting up more clinics to deal with it. And after the CBC cuts to the Ontario Minister of Health and what she says are the plans.

How on earth can you cook up any real sense of a conspiracy theory out of that? Really enlighten me. I'm very curious. What was so objectionable about his criticism of the disorganization of the clinic?
jarrid

Ivison and Gunter both have stories abou this incident in the National Post. They are both linked on National Newswatch. They both agree that it paints the Liberals as opportunistic and ethically-challenged.

The NDP are making constructive and measured criticisms that are helping in this time of crisis. The Liberals are trying to score cheap political points. Sakamoto and Apps are symptomatic of the Liberal approach. A pox on them both.
Ted

Good unbiased sources there.

I'll ask again, Jarrid. What part of what Sakamoto said is in any way critical of Harper?

At the very best, you might have a quarter of a point, if you said that the CBC recognized him as an Iggy guy and spoke with him hoping he'd say something really damning about Harper. Unfortunately he didn't play along and only questioned the clinic.

Not much to build a conspiracy theory out of. Might want to loosen the straps on that tinfoil hat.

normn

"After all this is the media outlet, the CBC, whose reporter Krista Erickson fed questions to the Liberals during the Mulroney inquiry. "

I'm still confused by this criticism!?

What is so terribly wrong with being "fed" (i.e. given) a question (other than being perceived as being lazy)?

Isn't the answer more important than who the question originally came from?

Or am I missing something else here?

Jason

About this "six million" doses. Does anyone really appreciate how little that is compared to the need?

As pointed out above, in the summer, they were saying they needed 50 million.

Six million is not six million Canadians. Many of these will go bad (they can't sit for more than 48 hours so a contingency amount is assumed).

pathetic

Curt

jason you are absolutely wrong when you say the vaccine can't sit for 48 hours.
When the vaccine has been mixed and has been put in vials then there maybe a time limit.
However when the vaccine is being shipped it often takes up to a week to reach the clinics and it may take another 2 weeks to be injected into a shoulder. Stop spreading false statements.
http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

The extra was to allow for double doses in the case of kids under 10, plus a bit of a safety buffer. 50 million is what they ordered, not strictly what was needed. The vaccine is stable for 28 days after production.

http://www.crnns.ca/documents/Q&A%20Pandemic%…

Curt

Andrew,
Check out the New Zealand experience. The H1N1 vaccine had yet to be developed during June,July,August and September. People forget things really fast in politics.
wilson

There is NO shortage of vaccine in Canada:

''…Some jurisdictions are doing a much better job than others at administering the vaccine but,
according to statistics available from eight provinces,
barely a third of the supply delivered by the federal government over the last three weeks had been used by the end of the weekend.

In Ontario, the health minister said on Tuesday she could accurately confirm that about 300,000 doses had been administered,
out of the 2.2 million received from federal authorities between the middle of October and last weekend, though she said the figure could be higher….''

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=21…

Orson Bean

Just remember, though — any mistake, or failure to do anything, by provincial officials is Harper's fault.

I think I read that on Warren Kinsella's website.

ripples

Wrong . Kinsella has come out directly and called the health minister a liar. He didn't mince his words. lets see if she sues him. Ha!!
Ted

No, the PMO message is: The Prime Minister is never at fault and never responsible. Ever. It is always the Liberals fault. Unless it is the media's fault. And if that doesn't work blame a bureaucrat or the provinces.

You've got to get your talking points clear here.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

Actually is the government's fault. If they'd made the vaccine available at an affordable but slightly painful price (say, $100…with a 90% fee waiver for anyone on welfare, disability, etc.) then only those who really feel at risk would get it, they could pay the supplier more for rushed delivery, and there would be no shortage.

Unfortunately that solution would have led to accusations that the Conservatives were letting the poor die while they indulge in capitalist porcine Marie-Antoinettery, which would have been even more politically damaging even though there would be no crisis. Ergo they have to make it available for free, and so the supply becomes the limit rather than the demand.

It may not be this particular government's fault (or Obama's, or any other party's) but it is government's fault insofar as they refuse to enact common sense provisions that come with a political price tag.

kcm

You have way too much faith in the common sense of people. At $100 only those who could afford to pay would have done so. I'm not saying the majority of folks with kids wouldn't have done the right thing, but a considerable minority would have been tempted to rationalise – " oh well it's probably too late anyway, why waste the hundred bucks."
The socialist mindset has bugger all to do with it. Your solution would have given any number of irresponsible people an excuse to be that. Neo-con solutions are invariably as dumb as socialist ones.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

Irresponsible people aren't going to take their kids to wait in line for 6 hours at a clinic either. Whether it's the $100 or the hassle, a lot of people won't do it.

The difference with my approach is that everyone who needs it can get it, with a little sting. With the current approach many high-risk individuals are trying to get the vaccine and are encountering delays.

kcm

I get your point about the hassle being too much for irresponsible people, although i'd say that a fee would only exacerbate that. It would be interesting to know if the reverse were true. Whether the fee would discourage low risk people, in effect encourage them not to be selfish. Somehow i doubt it – i take your point though.

http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

Actually, when it comes to public health, the "socialist mindset" is pretty much the only thing that makes sense.

Infectious agent risking the population? Deal with it. Isolate carriers. Vaccinate the herd. Shut down the restaurant. Distribute the antidote or the antibiotic. Whatever. It ABSOLUTELY calls for the power or the generosity of the state, depending on the action required.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

For a highly dangerous infection that's true, and it's not socialist. As with a major terrorist threat, freedoms can be suspended in such an emergency as the authorities do what is necessary to protect their citizens. In that case forced vaccinations may be justified. There is nothing socialist about this, it's merely desperate measures.

However we are not concerned with such a case here. H1N1 is not killing large numbers of people, and there is no necessity to force people to do anything about it. Therefore there is also no necessity to fall back to a "socialist mindset" in which unnecessary health measures are expected as "free" handouts for anyone interested. Not only is it unnecessary, it hinders the vaccinations of those who genuinely are at grave risk.

http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

Well, I will try to avoid a semantic party here, but when a central planner tells us all what we should be doing for the greater good, I lump that into "socialist mindset," and I am happy to allow for that in instances of public health, where the stubborn or the stupid or the poor could become a threat to others in addition to themselves.

And I will meet you halfway given the relative un-severity of H1N1, except… we are stuck with the socialist mindset because we have a socialist-imposed health care delivery model. Canada's healthcare system cannot handle FOUR extra young adults on ventilators for weeks without breaking apart, let alone FORTY. So, G, if you want your ICU to be there for you or your kids in case some drunk bastard plows through you, you have more than a "convenience" interest in widespread vaccination of the population against this relatively new virus.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

I'd argue that restraining basic freedoms is totalitarian unless it's a temporary measure necessitated by a crisis. Freedom to assemble, for example, is eliminated under martial law. Few would say that desperate circumstances could never justify such measures.

Granted, we are stuck with the socialist mindset because of our health care model. I agree with you, but I view this as an unfortunate reality rather than a necessary one.

In any case, I believe that my proposal would reduce the number of high-risk cases who can't get the vaccine in time. This in turn would reduce the load on our health care system, not increase it.
http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

As much a fan of the free market as I am, and I am, I fail to see how entering a price tag into the equation makes that big a difference for something in such incredible demand. The well-off will clamor for the vaccine regardless of risk, and the at-risk (and their family member contacts) will in many instances forgo the vaccine because the cost would be prohibitive. At the risk of sounding like a pinko dipper, the chronically ill often drop a notch or two on the socioeconomic ladder because of their condition.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

I believe you have me pegged. Secretly I'm a closet pinko commie.

Fred – Brandon MB

Get a grip! Where are the homeless people in the 1st priority group going to come up with $10? This is just a dumb idea. How would charging a fee overcome a shortage?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

Have you ever noticed that we have no food shortages in Canada? That's because we charge for food. If it were free, there would be shortages. With medical treatments, on the other hand, we have a shortage.

Please tell me this is not the first time you've ever heard this argument.

http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

Wait a minute…

I thought we are to believe we have no food shortages because the marketing boards restrict production, or something…