Categories: Coyne v. Wells, Video

Coyne v. Wells on guns and germs

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by macleans.ca on Thursday, November 5, 2009 7:30pm - 20 Comments

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Tags: Andrew coyne, coynevwells09, gun control, H1N1, paul wells

http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

The NDP is facing a revolt because of how the dirty dozen voted. I'd say they've lost about 20% of their active bloggers because of this.

sbt

That's better than losing 20% (or more) of their MPs which very well could have happened next election had Layton whipped the vote.

http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

They could lose 20% of their MPs if reaction from bloggers is any indication of how the rest of their supporters feel.

sbt

I don't doubt that alot of NDP supporters are upset by these events. However, there is also a large group of rural voters who have traditionally voted NDP who don't support the registry and aren't really all that progressive. Is it really worth annoying all these voters and allowing the Conservatives to continue winning the overwhelming majority of rural and Western ridings effectively unopposed so that the NDP can retain Trinity-Spadina?
TedTylerEzro

They'll forget it all next month.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

You're probably right. Many Liberals were just as upset as the Dippers, but for the sake of party unity the whole thing will likely be glossed over within weeks.

http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

A lot of NDP supporters got upset over the new direction the party said they were planning to take at the convention. Then a lot of NDP supporters got upset over the party's support of the Conservatives. Now a lot of NDP supporters will be upset about this. 3 strikes in such a short time can be fatal to a party that's too bloody stupid to throw something big (ie. proportional representation) to the base to shore up their support.

sbt

It depends on who the party wants as their base and what the party wants to consider as its policy priorities and goals. There was a time that the NDP could be expected to reliably return a significant number of MPs from western Canada. Today, that's not really the case despite the fact that the NDP has success provincially in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC. The stances the party has taken on issues like the gun registry probably play a part in that. Is the rigid stance the party has taken on the long gun registry really worth putting those seats out of play when an NDP member would be far more useful in advancing other NDP priorities than a Conservative member would, particularly if minority governments are the new norm? That's a question NDP members should start asking themselves because if majorities are few and far between they actually have a chance to be something more than the conscience of parliament.

http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

Coyne talks about government learning lessons from how it handles H1N1.

I would like to know why vaccination process is taking so long, why the bottlenecks. I have not been jabed yet but doesn't it take 15 seconds or so to get a shot? What's taking so long? Herd people through like cattle – thirty seconds per person – pull up your sleeve, get the shot, off you go. Next …. etc.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

Screening takes a bit of time, careful handling of sharps to protect medical staff, briefing people on possible side effect symptoms to watch for, and usually there's a required time to sit and wait after the injection in case of sudden traumatic reaction…

Just a few things off the top of my head that probably slow things down a fair bit,

http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

Bottleneck is staffing, both for those who take in the info and for the "jabbers"

Dr offices work best because the admin is already done, they have the patients records, they already "know their client" so to speak, so they can jab away more effeciently.

Best thing the Ontario government could have done was spend money buying storage firdges vs focussing on e health records.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

One hopes we can assess what worked and what didn't this time around, and create a more efficient national system of delivery for the next time. (And, I naively hope that could be done without some onerous commission – I expect better practices should be relatively easy to identify and implement without prolonged, legalized navel gazing).

http://intensedebate.com/people/VinceClortho VinceClortho

The greater the politics surrounding this the harder it will be to honestly reassess.

The other barrier to reassessment will be the various health bureacracies reinforcing their own relevance. While I dont like a legal commission, it would be nice to get an outsider review of the whole thing from a logictic, servcie, effectiveness point of view.

The goal was to put needles in arms, by that measure the delivery in Ontario hasnt been livining up to it. My suspicion is they are caught up in the in between world of expanding distribution and filling the pipeline. Let alone being in total disarray in general over the e heath sinkhole. E health has its dirty fingernails in the injection process for sure. So the Health Minister needs to find another way out.

http://intensedebate.com/people/SeanStok SeanStok

Wells, you look a bit like a priest in that outfit, by the way.
MJ Patchouli

Andrew Coyne, please sit closer to your microphone next time; I had to turn it up when you spoke, and turn it down for Wells (but Wells had better, clearer sound).
http://intensedebate.com/people/RobertSeymour RobertSeymour

Wells and Coyne, thought by some to be "conservatives", are really just good Ontarians. Neither can admit civilian ownership of firearms is morally legitimate.
http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

Hah ! Coyne may be blahzay now. Wait until his beemer srarts to sneeze.
http://twitter.com/snoble @snoble

I quite like Coyne's line on vaccinating not out of fear and panic but out of civic duty. This is basically the opinion I was trying to express, but not as tersely or concisely, at
http://blog.noblemail.ca/2009/10/why-is-h1n1-big-…
and
http://blog.noblemail.ca/2009/10/how-getting-vacc…
I do try to support the argument a little bit though with some modeling and graphs that others may find interesting.
Joanne Manley

This is for Paul Wells. Mr. Wells: you made a comment on Evan Solomon's CBC Show Power and Politics to the effect that former MP Chuck Cadman's son was killed with a gun. Your point was it would make little difference should the child of an MP die from a gun shot – that killing would not move MP's to save the gun registry. I think it is important when making such claims that your facts are correct. In this case, you are clearly wrong. The teen-aged son of Mr. and Mrs. Cadman was stabbed – no less tragic than a gunshot – but your argument was as weak as your knowledge of the facts.
http://intensedebate.com/people/JustinWordswrth JustinWordswrth

The opening music made me think this would be the episode in which Andrew and Paul finally kissed.