I confess to some bafflement at the government’s handling of the Afghan prisoner story: a story that would be more of a crisis if Canadian forces were still handing over captured prisoners to the Afghan government without insisting on adequate safeguards and outside supervision. But everyone agrees, I think, that that is no longer the case.
It was the case in 2006-07, when a previous prisoner transfer agreement was in force, and Richard Colvin was writing all those memos warning his superiors of what he was hearing about conditions in the Afghan jails. And presumably it was the case before then, when the Liberals, who negotiated that earlier agreement, were in power. But the agreement was changed in 2007, by the Tories. So you’d think that would be the Tory story: We fixed the problem.
Granted, it’s a scandal if anyone was tortured on our watch at any time, the more so if, as Colvin alleges, senior government officials knew about it, and did nothing. But it’s much less of a scandal if, once apprised of it, they acted to stop it, albeit after much delay. Afghanistan is a chaotic place, and it’s conceivable that it would have taken some time to investigate the charges and verify their accuracy.
So why is the government investing so much energy in impugning Colvin’s credibility? It’s one thing to say, as I think we must, that his evidence is less than bullet-proof: he was told that torture was going on, by sources he considers credible, but has no direct knowledge of it; he told David Mulroney, the deputy minister responsible for the Afghanistan Task Force, and Michel Gauthier, the head of Canadian forces in Afghanistan, of his concerns, and believes that Rick Hillier, the chief of defence staff, and Margaret Bloodworth, the Prime Minister’s national security adviser, also knew; and so on. Colvin is credible, but he is not omniscient. He has levelled some very serious charges at a number of people — essentially, that they knowingly acquiesced in torture — and it’s critical that they be given a chance to respond. (A public inquiry? I don’t think we’re at that stage yet. The Commons Special Committee on Afghanistan, before whom Colvin testified, seems the more appropriate forum.)
But it’s another thing altogether to imply that Colvin is some sort of whack job or stooge of the Taliban. As others have pointed out, his sterling career track — he’s now a senior intelligence officer at the Canadian embassy in Washington — hardly bespeaks eccentricity or incompetence. And if, as the government maintains, there was no reason to believe what he was saying was true — on a balance of probabilities, at least — then why did the government eventually change its practice? If no one in government even knew there was a problem, how could anyone have given the orders to fix it?
Whatever the truth or falsehood of Colvin’s reports, it is scarcely credible that they would not have been passed up to the highest levels: not just in the bureaucracy, but the cabinet as well. If the Minister of National Defence at the time, Gordon O’Connor, did not know, he surely should have; if bureaucrats insulated him from that knowledge, to preserve “plausible deniability,” that is a mark against him as much as them, for not establishing as an inviolable rule that he should be kept abreast of all such sensitive matters.
But the more likely proposition is that he did know. And if he knew, it is equally likely that the Prime Minister would have been told. Again, I don’t find that damning in itself: once told, they acted, even if it now appears rather too slowly. What’s indefensible is for ministers to have lied about what they knew, especially to Parliament — or, if they did not know, for officers and bureaucrats to have deliberately kept them in the dark. The more the government attempts to shoot the messenger, the more one suspects one of these will prove to be true.
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This is how the CPC shows it is "tough on crime". They could give a damn about people who have been accused, let alone proven guilty of committing a crime.
We have something to worry about how they deal with our corrections and judicial system here in Canada; we really have something to worry about their attitudes and policies, especially unwritten, when it comes to undeveloped or war-torn countries.
I seem to recall that the CF halted prisoner transfers to the Afghans on its own initiative, whenever that was, i.e. without having the Government make the call. Am I misremembering that? If it's true, it's certainly an important piece of the puzzle as to who know and acted or did not act upon what when.
No, the CF doesn't have the authority to decide that on their own. The transfers stopped when the the Globe and Mail drew attention to the fact that prisoners transferred by Canada were being tortured.
I would have thought the same thing, but it seems, from the story that transfers had been suspended, that "The Canadian Forces, working with other Canadian Officials in Afghanistan, exercise their discretion concerning this policy," at least according to Sandra Buckler. And, as I say, I may be misremembering, but my vague impression was that it was the commander in the field who initially called a halt to such transfers.
I would have thought the same thing, but it seems, from the story that transfers had been suspended, that "The Canadian Forces, working with other Canadian Officials in Afghanistan, exercise their discretion concerning this policy," at least according to Sandra Buckler. And, as I say, I may be misremembering, but my vague impression was that it was the commander in the field who initially called a halt to such transfers.
Excellent article-honest, insightful without any political false currency. of course, the Toronto Star is loading it's pages with all kinds of false currency. WAR CRIMES is the headline in todays Red Star and yesterday TORTURE. was the big word front and center.
Let's face it, the liberals are so desperate that they can't make the town whore and the Toronto Star, a 24/7 liberal campaign machine is working both sides of the street, trying to get its its readership to swallow this one. And swallow they shall.
How ya doing Jack?
Wow, I want some of what Dieter is smoking.
Much of the rhetoric herein is just rancid, rabid anti-Conservative psychotic mumblings, burblings and associated lice-like Lemmings of the World United… Straight facts. Conservative philosophy not only works, it is the basis of the Confederation, notwithstanding the old Liberals of the Confederation were, [when examined and tested,] Conservatives. We all know this. Why is it an issue? Old Liberals were conservative. Adam Smith et al. So. I do not give a particular hoot about Afghan prisoners. Moreover, my soldiers should be killing them dead. They are scumbags. When my soldiers come home, they are going to be integrated into the Police Service of the Country ..and in fact flying squads will be used in the Major Cities to bolster police in sweep, search, destroy missions…OK sweep search and return-to-Jamaica-missions ! Yes. We are a hairs breadth away from extrajudicial killings in this land. Tamils;Sikhs;Muslims from India, Indonesia, Phillipines, Bali and the Arabic/Mideastern lands… but .. and you forget that the Armenians assassinated the Turkish Ambassador in Ottawa a few years ago! wow. I want soldiers..with guns in our cities (Toronto!) and I do not find that scarey.
Thank you Liberals for defining what I wish. I believe were should shoot Somali pirates in the head then run the props over them, as we pull away. Are you seriously wanting to turn this into a Somali (Airborne Regiment) wipeout? If so, you are the enemy of my land and it's people. Jean Cretien disbanded the Airborne. Thank Christ someone was waiting in the wings with JTF 2.
Got a kleenex? I need to wipe the spittle off.
As an ex-CF soldier, all I have to say is that you are seriously disturbed. Sending PW's off to be tortured by a third party is not what this country or its forces have ever stood for. The majority of these alleged "Taliban" types are farmers just trying to avoid having the hard cores kill them and their families. Perhaps you thought that the torture and murder of a Somali teenager stealing food was justified by certain elements of 2 Commando; personally I don't.
The real truth could sink the conservatives. Don't bet your life that its still not going on. The leadership in this country is taking us down a war crime path. History will not shine brightly on Canada in the future. We have lost our way even as badly as the US in the fight against terrorism. No fight is worth the price of throwing away our reputation as a fair and just country. Time to get out of world conflicts. Use our troops and resources solely for defence and national emergencies.
Yiks, this is nasty:
''…Mr. Attaran notes that Gen. Hillier signed the agreement even though the Afghan government's own human rights commission warned (the Liberal govt) in 2004 that the torture of prisoners is "routine."
(note, Martin and Graham approved the agreement in May 2005, it was signed Dec 2005, by Hillier)
That agency, the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, monitors the conditions of detainees, a role recognized under the arrangement signed by Gen. Hillier….''
The Liberal agreement Dec 2005 was condemned by all,
but the experts (Byers) say it is the soldiers themselves that could be charged with war crimes, as they do the handing over:
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.ht...
I'm amazed the liberals still have a following. Look what McGuinty has done to the province of Ontario-bankrupt, have not status. Look what Miller has done to the City of Toronto-massive financial problems due to his pie in the sky brand of Marxism. And the federal Liberals are a collection of infighting, face scratching, back biting, back stabbing egotists, who believe they and only they should be allowed to govern.
Stick to the subject and get off of your right-wing rant.
Please don't discourage Herr Sprockets, it increases Liberal votes when he rants like that.
You're probably correct (I abhorr the word "right"). I can't help but be PO'd every time I think that I sttod on guard in Europe in the 70's to possibly be called on to protect morons like that!
You also stood on guard to protect the rest of us.
Thanks
This guy seems to have gotten lost on his way to the Toronto Star comments section.
I think he got lost on his way to Canada!
As Coyne says Colvin’s allegations are unproven. So unless there is specific proof then his accusations cannot be considered as credible.
We are getting bent out of shape over something that happened to 2 1/2 years ago. Hillier said he was never told and Colvin admitted he never told ministers, Hillier or even the PM when they were in Afghanistan.
Paul Martin changed the handing over of detainees from the U.S. forces to the Afghan government and so the Libs should be careful. An inquiry could wash over them as well.
In the meantime Canadians have little interest in what happened to detainees 2 1/2 years ago. Harper is going to China soon and the Xmas break is coming then the Olympics. In the meantime we could have a budget in mid to late January. If that happens it will be interesting to see the Libs turning themselves into pretzels having to support the budget.
"As Coyne says Colvin's allegations are unproven."
They are only unproven because the Harper Conservative government decided not to investigate, for fear of what might be found. In other words, they knew the inevitable conclusion of any possible investigation : very bad for your boy Stevie.
There are important things to be discussed in Canada like Economy, unemployment, troop pull out, our soldiers dying, etc. Who the F%&k cares about some terrorists being tortured in a 3rd world country by 3d party? What a waste and Candians are idiots!
"There are important things to be discussed in Canada like … our soldiers dying …"
You responded to your own rant – this is precisely about our soldiers dying, being put at increasing and unnecessary risk because of the Harper Conservative government's policy on detention and transfer of Afghans captured by the Canadian armed forces.
Farmers = Terrorists?
WHY WASTE TIME = reactionary?
I confess to some bafflement at the government’s handling of the Afghan prisoner story…
What's the prob? "We acted decisively on the non-credible information he never told us and we never saw." Simple.
I'm concerned about the international backlash on this. I mean first we bail out on Kyoto, then we may be complicit in war crimes… what's next? Greztky cries in front of the press? oh wait…
I can just imagine some Eastern European kid grabbing a Canadian athlete in Vancouver and: "I used to look up to country… but now you torture prisoners. Shame on you."
To my media friends:
What happens when a theory that is set to reorder the world economy is severely called into question by some very damning leaks,
which subject by its very nature is of fundamental importance to all the citizenry,
is ignore in favour of highly partisan, inside the beltway, media elite pet issues?
I'll give you an answer:
the death of the media industry.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to read….gulp…informative blogs to get the information I need.
My thoughts exactly biff. With the extra tidbit that I strongly suspect the PMO is giving this story (detainees) just enough rope to hang those pushing it come budget time. All bureaucratic chains of command are famous for butt covering (CYA). The military epitomises the practise…they know who what where when and why to the nth degree and certainly briefed the PCO. For those paying attention, that would make it SECRET, by oath, forever.
Check that,
and Fox News, who prominently featured the CRU leak on their website.
No relation to Fox's skyrocketing ratings I'm sure.
"When a resolute young fellow steps up to the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find it comes off in his hand and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers" – Ralph Waldo Emerson
I am getting tired of Taliban good Canadian soldiers bad from the Liberal party. Liberals all worried about treatment of Taliban but don't give dam about treatment of Canadian soldiers and civilians by the Taliban. Liberals are a sick lot.
Oh move over Colvie there is amuch btter story.Dions wife is busy telling Iggy off, on facebook of all places.How funny!
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNe...
and where else could you read that but the Conservative Television Network news website!
Well , the G&M for one place.LOL!! suck it up
G&M, National Post, CTV, Toronto Sun, take your pick – all supporters of the Reform/Allaince party. Suck that up!
I think you are paranoid, how peculiar.I guess you missed the fact is was on the CBC, you know, the LBC masquerading as a 'national news network.It sucks to be liberal right now try not to take it too badly
ABL!
Why the Liberals Love This
For generations, the natural governing party was trying to morph Canada into a nation of pacifists. This was sited in today's Toronto Star by Thomas Walkom: "Ten years ago, Canada was a country that prided itself on pacifism" Of course, the pacifism began with Trudeau the charismatic leader, who established a warm relationship with Cuba and wasn't the least concerned about Cuba's hideous track record on torture or terrorist training camps.
Many liberals are depressed by the number of Canadians who have the audacity to place a : support our troops" decal on their vehicle, or who openly support the mission.
The totrure alligation, which is old history, is something the liberals can use to undermine our troops.
It won't work. However, you can support our troops and not the mission.That is anyone's prerogative. The NDP are gaining on the libs, I love this.
Once again Srockets you equate supporting the troops with supporting the mission. As a former CF soldier I certainly support the troops; as a Canadian citizen, I am against the mission. If you really want to support the troops, ask the hard questions of the government that commands them. The troops have no input into where they are sent or the actions they are to take. If you feel so bloody adament about ther mission, wht not enlist? Want to detain more Afghan peasants caught betwen the Taliban and ISAF forces? Head to the nearest CF recruiting office; they're dying for more IED fodder.
And the greatest thing is Colvin LOOKS like a Conservative. Look at him, all business like, crew cut and serious. He could be a Conservative candidate. Why are the Conservatives attacking him?
Looks like one,?hunh take that sweeping paint brush and tuck it away.Racist
Yes, according to Liberals, only white males with short hair and wearing business suits are Conservatives. It's actually not even possible for a woman to be a conservative — all female conservative MPs are really men in drag.
Knucke; head,
How do you show your support for the troops? I asked every single Liberal M.P. how they show their support for the troops. Guess how many responses i got-zero.
The Liberals have hurt our country beyond description. The policies have left us infertile-females produce less than 1.5 children during their reproductive years- their policies have led to massive numbers of divorces, which in turn has created unacceptable numbers of single parent families, and their financial gutting of our armed forces, beginning with the Messiah, has likely resulted in the unnecessary deaths of many of our troops. And their flirtation with pacifism, contributed to the Rwandan genocide.
I am pertty much up to the gills with your right-wing spew. I show my support for the troops (including a foster son who served 2 tours in Afghanistan) like every other former soldier – morally! And I ask the tough questions of my MP's that we elected to represent our viewpoints. To date, neither the Reform/Alliance or Liberals have given adequate answers and both parties are guilty of covering the facts. Like I said before, if you want to support the mission so friggin' badly, grow a spine and enlist; something that I don't believe you have the guts to do. If in fact you lived in the former Czechoslovakia as you claim and are still PO'd because you and your ilk hadn't the guts or wherewithall to stand up for yourselves, GET OVER IT . By the way, thank the UN for its failure in Rwanda, not any Canadian government; they commanded, not us!
You're getting a tad hot under the old collier, Mr. Head. But that's okay-at least you're honest.
Our politicians aren't the most reliable diseminators of the truth, just as our newspapers are as crooked as my spine-according to you.
I support the mission because I believe that failed states are an abomination to the well being of the inhabitants, and in the case of Afghanistan, this failed state was a well developed training ground for al Quida-read peter Bergen's book, the Osama bin Ladden I know.
Perhaps i could suggest another excellent read called,Fixing Failed States:A Framework for Rebuilding a Fractured World. Authors Ghani and Lockhart, both former U.N. advisers to Afghanistan, spotlight the critical problem of failed states: countries where governments have all but collapsed, basic services go unprovided and terrorism and criminality reign unchecked—or even abetted—by a corrupt and predatory state. Close to the heart of their thesis is the concept of R2P.
A final read is Ghost Wars, by Steve Coll'. It covers Afghanistan from the Soviet Invasion to September 10,to the years just before 9/11. it's insightful and serves as an excellent elixir to the numerous, laughable conspiracy theories put forth by some mischievous elements on the left.
When I read Linda McQuaig, Haroon Siddiqui or Thiomas Walkom, I'm in tune to their spin and purpose for writing. I beleive that vry few if their asserions would stand the test of a rebuttle involving good scholarship.
Suffice it to say if the Taliban and via associatio al Quada, get their hands on Pakistans nukes, the world will pay a very heavy proce.
I m with Mackay and Hillier on this one. If you are going to besmirch the reputation of our Canadian troops, saying they are complicit in torture and therefore have committed war crimes, then you better have evidence to BACK IT UP. Evidence, as in FACTS.
I disagree with our host. For the Government to take the tack: "Yeah, this was probably happening in 2006 but we fixed the problem" is still accusing our soldiers of committing war crimes in 2006. Such a position, while more politically adept perhaps, would be deeply insulting to our soldiers who served in Afghanistan in 2006 and is injurious to the morale of those serving with such distinction today. I would be shocked if the Government did not respond to Colvin's opinions or innuendo in any other way than they have.
I am aware that the NDP and many Liberals, as well as a major portion of our media, will leap at the chance to denigrate our soldiers in the effort to score cheap political points against the Conservatives, but I expect the Government to support our troops, and to stand behind them in the face of these insults to their honour because they cannot defend themselves.
Yes the government is standing behind the troops; you have to in order to push them into an unpopular conflict. The ydo nothing in order to really support them. Mybe you should speak to some veterans of the Afghan miision that have lost their jobs with the CF because of lack of support with PTSD.
And I have read, Shake Hands With the Devil
Here's my choice for your final read of the day…..pull your head out of your ass or go back to Europe!
Mr. Head,
You have clearly lost control of your bodily functions and are making a rather large mess of what could have been an intelligent social discourse.
I found Thomas Walkom's comment in today's Star to be most revealing:Ten years ago, Canada was a country that prided itself on pacifism, said Walkom. Then he said: Today, Canada is a nation proudly at war Wlakom is simply wrong on both counts.
I doubt that a majority of Canadians ever believed that we were a nation of pacifists. And I doubt that those of us who support our role in Afghanistan, do so because we're claim proud of the fact that we are at war. Walkom's thinking is simplistic and suggestive.
This is they type of stuff that we get from Walkom and a few other Star journalists, which is one reason why this paper should be removed from Ontario's classrooms.
Torture of detainees did take place. Torture still takes place. Detainees were and are turned over. Agreements, there, mean nothing. There's no way we can monitor those prisons well enough to verify otherwise. The knowledge of torture went all the way up the line to the top.
When one admits the truth the opposition dissipates. The harder one denies, the large the opposition and the longer the stench will linger.
The character assassination of the messenger exacerbates the negative impact.
I appreciate your thanks, however, it was my father's generation that last saw combat in Europe to defend those who either couldn't, wouldn't or just plain never wanted to. In retrospect, I would have made a different choice. That is the reason that they target 20 yr. olds for service in the military…50 year olds are smarter than that.