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65 Responses to “Who should shoulder the blame for the alleged torture of suspects transferred to Afghan authorities by Canadian troops?”
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What a total time-waster is this diatribe from the opposition parties in the House!! Does any one give thought to what the enemy does to ITS captives? We cannot, cannot respect terrorists.
Yeah right on! Who gives a rat's butt whether they're actual terrorists or just unlucky victims of vengeful accusing neighbours or bonus-bounty seekers, right? They're not English speaking good ol' boys so they deserve to be literally thrown to the dogs before being proven innocent or guilty, whooooo hoooooo!
Who says that Canadians handed over farmers, or taxi-drivers, or children? Certainly it would be reasonable for CAF to let these ones go & only pass along Taliban & their sympathizers. They obviously are sensible enough to do that for sure.
As for what they did to them then – right – who cares – they can't be considered soldiers because they don't wear uniforms – they target innocent civilians with suicide bombings, mines, & throw acid in schoolgirls' faces. So yeah – if they are tortured – so be it. What would you expect – to have them brought to Canada & put up at Club Fed, maybe be "integrated" as refugees & supported by us?
If you want to critisize out troops & their way of doing things why don't you apply to go over as a commanding officer. Heck, why not go for a quick visit to see the lay of the land & how things actually are done.
I imagine you are above all that though, & would prefer to be an armchair critic in the comfort & safety of your own home.
In no way at all was I criticizing our hard working and brave troops. The problem is that they are ordered by higher ups to hand over captives to torturing Afghan authorities. Canada HAS to uphold the principles of a) no torture, ever and b) assumed innocence until proven guilty. These values are part and parcel of the whole decades-long struggle that will be ongoing to between the civilized and uncivilized. You don't know any more than I do whether the accused who are handed over are farmers/taxi drivers or acid-throwing bombers.
What is outrageous is that the Canadians didn't summarily shoot them, then turn them over.
I'll remember that if the police show up at your house and start shooting first. Oops, wrong address, oh well, you must've deserved it anyhow.
I'm sure it is easy to pass judgment on the enemy and the allied soldiers as we sit in our cozy homes, the biggest worry we might have being how to raise the money for the next house payment. Try to understand/remmember what the situation is in war zones before you even speak.
With that said, I favor letting the time-tested and approved military leadership pass judgment and execute judicialy. The politicians usually only get involved when they are trying to embarras or intimidate. After you deploy the armed services, let them do thier job. Politicians can cease operations if they do not like the direction of an operation. We will always need our warrior-class type people, it is an ugly truth, somebody does need to be fierce enough to stand up and defend the rest of us passive type people. When combat service discredits the squad or the operation, it is usually dealt with efficiantly. (Nobody can see everything, even politicians.) Let the military do it's job. They let/enable you to do yours.
I wholeheartedly support the tough and superb job our forces are doing in Afghanistan and don't hold the actual troops responsible for the handovers-to-torture. Like good soldiers they were following orders. I think we should stay in Afghanistan until well after 2011.
My quibble is with the government's mealy-mouthed "we didn't know," attack-the-messenger response to the situation (apart from not acting on it pronto in the first place). The two above posts I initially responded to are missing the point entirely– we want to encourage the adoption of human rights and justice in Afghanistan, but posts like those illustrate a lack of care about a) whether those rounded up as Taliban suspects actually are guilty and b) Canada cannot condone torture, period.
Right on!
I fail to see how it can be Canada's fault when the suspects were handed over to their own government. And why is it the loony lefties always manage to protest the slightest perceived wrong by our soldiers but are quiet when terrorists drag an American soldier around until his head pulls off. There was not much noise from the left when the Taliban was cutting Afgan citizens hands off for exercising their democratic right to vote either.
Right on!
Nobody's saying our soldiers did wrong.
What's actually being said is that our soldiers noted some concerns and the gov'ts of the time (Liberal, then Conservative) didn't do anything about it.
So? What's the point? That was done in the past. Why does it matter when it has been addressed. Why does the opposition demand answers now, not back in 2003, 2004, 2005 ?
And what difference does it make? Life in a war zone has a tendancy to get ugly – especially with enemies like the Taliban, who do not wear uniforms, and pull all kinds of barbaric stunts.
If we turned our heads the other way IF these guys were tortured, so be it. It was their government who did the torturing. I for one don't have a problem with this.
Comparing it to police shooting the wrong person in Canada is just silly, we aren't a war zone.
In case you haven't noticed, we're the good guys. That means we avoid torturing people. Even our enemies. And we avoid letting people be tortured when we can. That's just part of being the good guys.
If you don't want to be part of the good guys.. well.. go join the Taliban.
The question asks "who should be blamed for the ALLEGED torture…" Since it is alleged and not proven the question is totally a red herring to bring out the trolls and it has.
What's sad is that so many Canadians seem to care less about the Canadian complicity in the known torture of fellow human beings. We call them "insurgents" to make it OK- we don't use the term "resistance fighters" for people trying to oust a foreign occupying army. Our so called government does everything to discredit a qualified whistle blower while plugging the so called mission and whatever the current objectives are.
Know something- this war is not fought in my name. The grunts that are there are all volunteers- they don't have to be there. But young guys like to dress macho and kill things. Sad enough- but the real tragedy is how the government and their brass still sell the old lie-Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Look it up fer cripes sake.
Bill Desmond
You being allowed to call my son a murderer is the real tragedy here. You don't know him, obviously by your comments, and you know nothing about why they are there – keep your slanderous, disgusting comments to yourself.
Well said!
Maybe we should have shipped them to our country – declared them as Canadian citizen and gave each of them $10 mil. This would have satisfied A- holes such as yourself.
Spend a little time over there (I did 2 years). When you have religious fanatics blowing themselves up around you and mainly taking out innocent countrymen, then I'll take your opinion seriously. Until then, shut your festering pie-hole.
Hey Mr Coyne;
These idiotic polls, skewed to some absurd version of reality and meant to support an obvious agenda, really bring down the value of your site and brand.
You have a good cross section of opinion here and except for the troll-commentators you host a good debate.
I did not vote in this poll because the choices depict a caricature of the situation.
Actually the poll shows a minority of people think it is not their fault. 57% to 43%
Please read "The Deserter's Tale by Joshua Key as told to Lawrence Hill
……..then place an opinion.
Canada is a multi-cultural country.
MAY THE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD UNITE IN DECIDING THAT GREED, HATE, AND FOCUSING ON DIFFERENCES CAN NO LONGER BE HOW WE CAN LIVE ON THIS EARTH. MAY IT BE SO.
Vi Gerbrandt
Baloney. Canada is not a multi cultural country. It's an Anglo Saxon country with a French minority. People assimilate into one of the two. My parents came from Italy. As a child I lived in two cultures, one at home and the other outside of home, at school and with my friends, all of whom were Anglo or assimilated. Canada to me, even at a young age, represented progress, prosperity and knowledge. Listening to stories my parents told me about the old country, Italy came to represent backwardness, poverty and ignorance. There was no contest, I wanted to be Canadian. Even now, many years later, Italy is infested by organized criminal gangs, it's politics are utterly corrupt and compared to Canada, it is relatively poor. Why would we want to be multi cultural, even if it were possible or practical? Isn't the culture the Anglo Saxons gave us better than the rest? Why do people come here otherwise?
You as so right!
and why do they come to America?
it used to be that they wanted to come here and contribute to our (Formerly) wonderful free country,Now manyc ome here to get on the welfare system…
and of course since the Obama Admininistration,we are all losing our freedom ,as so many things are done against
the law of our Constitution
We should all join the 912ers,and take our Country back!!
Listen to Glenn Beck on Foxnews at 5 p.m.and youl learn about that!!
Well said.
Unless we are willing to build our own prison and staff it with Canadians we cannot be 100% sure that some sort of abuse will not take place.
Why should we drain any more money to build prisons & to staff them to ensure these Taliban monsters are treated " respectfully" The people in these backwards countries have been fighting the same battles for centuries. What makes anyone think that anything will change in this lifetime? That is all these people have known all of their lives.
There is a war going on over there – it's not pretty. Let the people duke it out for themselves.Without financial aid.
We are the people who stand on the soap boxes of the world and preach "Democracy" our government continues to state the reason our troops are in Afghanistan and many have given their lives is because we are Nation Building. Is torture beit physical/mental a corner stone of Nation Building or Democracy, I think not.
What are you trying to say. Just put it in plain language.
Our troops are not over there torturing people, or just killing the enemy. They are also helping the people rebuild.
The ones doing the torturing are the country that asked for help becoming free of the abusive Taliban.
Under the Geneva convention, transfer to torture is a war crime. Internal political squabling aside, if true, this harms Canada's rep abroad. http://bit.ly/85NOV2
And what sort of reputation does Canada have abroad? We are seen as gullible, soft-on-crim, easy to take advantage of pleasers, who will take just about anyone on as a refugee- including terrorists – , and support them & their families to boot. We have NO real identity in the world, other than as doormats.
Maybe it's time to be looked as a no BS nation – with zero tolerence for terrorists, liars & others who expliot the overly genrous nature of the idiots who decide our immigration policies.
As far as the Geneva convention – how does it apply to un-uniformed terrorists who attack civilians as well as uniformed men/women? These people are the lowest of low, & do not deserve any compassion or respect in any way whatsoever for their cowardly, brutal acts. Even if they were tortured – who cares- they certainly don't adhere to fighting fairly.
The Geneva convention applies to uniformed militaries at war, not to fanatics dressed as civilians arbitrarily beheading captured combatants. Civil rules apply to civilized peoples, not terrorists.
Canada complicit in torture? You're joking. right? We don't have prisons in Afghanistan so the terrorists we capture must stay somewhere. The deal was we would transfer them to the government of Afghanistan. When any word of torture came to our soldiers attention the transfers stopped. What else could they have done?
Also, these aren't women and children. Get a grip.
The whole fiasco has been led by a desperate Opposition. Ignatieff according to many public statements see's nothing wrong with torture. What a fraud they are. They are willing to accuse our brave soldiers of being complicit in torture and they do so for political gain. Is it any wonder their poll numbers are in the tank?
Helen
Good Post! Wish people would think about what goes on over there, & stop trying to apply sane values to an insane country.
It would be nice if Macleans could put just a bit more effort into constructing these poll questions; would it really be that difficult to provide some genuine options?
I hear ya on that one. They always seem so fricken clunky. They might as well add a none of the above option. Couldn't be more muddled.
It’s war, these things happen. The only shame with this situation is that it was made public.
I worry more about Canadians than some thug with gun powder on his hands that tells us that they "will dominate the World"
Why?
Because they may be hurt over there, or because some terroists may blow up the CN Tower, or subway sytem in Toronto? Or because of our " reputation" being hurt.
Not too clear on what exactly it is about Canadians you're worried about.
Then worry about the RCMP or U.S. police who seem to indiscriminately Taser gun people they consider dangerous. The victims lie screaming on the ground while the officers continue to fire. If this isn't torture…???
Let's face it, the majority of canadians have far greater worries than this. The only ones who care, with their phoney outrage are the patholgical Harper Haters who want to blame the "Evil Harper" for everything. The only place this will be discussed is at Starbucks, along with the pretentous artsy-fartsy crowd there who are still outraged that the CBC has to scrounge by on a billion+ a year. That is if they can drag themselves away from their laptops where they are pretending to do something. Cheers.
I for one am not so much upset that the prisoners were tortured and I am not a pathological Harper hater. However, what is becoming the issue is the Harper government response to the allegations. Not that they knew – is there any doubt (?) – but the way they are responding. I see a bit of a pattern here. Lack of accountability.
Not being of the "artsy-fartsy crowd" I nevertheless am once again disgusted that the Harper government can not react any different to this then previous governments have to other scandals. Now that approach does worry me when all the greater worries we have are also influenced by the government action.
Maybe it is time a new party that makes honesty, integrity and accountability its core values is formed, because these guys all look more and more the same.
What is it with people who are looking down their noses at the actions that were taken to remedy the handling of Afghan prisoners by Afghan government? for "accountability" over this, calling for an inquiry – to waste more taxpayers money – over something that has no effect on our quality of life & that has already been addressed ?
Please clarify what an inquiry will accomplish? Seriously. Besides wasting a lot of time, money & creating an unjustified outrage on behalf of Taliban & their supporters?
Enough of these foolish, pointless demands by people who just want to embarass our government.
Well said Julie
Please don't lose sight of the most important issues here…
what is to be gained by the whistle blower, other than compromising his career! What is to be gained by the leading politicians covering their backsides? Who should one believe? To watch everyone scurrying for cover is disgusting and puts an additional taint on these self serving federal politicians and bureaucrats. It is getting harder and harder to believe anything coming out of Ottawa!
Then don't get caught up in these non-stories. It's a war, & wars are not about sipping tea & discussing differences.
I had never heard the whistle blowers name before. Is he thinking about politics after his term in Washington is up – possibly for the opposition?
And if you are attacked, as the press & Opposition has attacked the government, aren't you obliged to justify your position?
This issue shouldn't affect anyone here in Canada, and it has been addressed – let it go. It's being made into a mountain because of the polls showing the Liberals lagging behind. They want something to boost their image – anything- whether it matters or not isn't the point.
The Taliban are not resistance fighters, they're drug dealers who are terrorizing a whole population and the country's neighbours. No schools for girls, the only work that pays is in the poppy fields…
Our soldiers do what they can to prevent the torture of captives, and thats a good thing, but not a lot of us at home are too worried if the Afghans forget their agreement with our government and extract some revenge while trying to extract a little information. God knows they've been through enough.
Exactly
Why is anyone, myself included wasting any time on "alleged".
The opposition is wasting time defending the terrorists who maim and kill our troops instead of defending the very troops who have made this country safe for them.
Y E A H !!
As usual, this story will disappear in a few days, to be replaced by something else that the Government wants to highlight.
Can see Harper changing his mind ( once again ) and attending the Climate conference now that both the US and Chinese leaders are attending.
That would help him to get this out of the news also.
Did I read this correctly? "Who should shoulder the blame for the alleged torture…………" You have a poll on this???
Noone even cares that we shouldn’t be in the middle east in the first place. Noone mentions the fact that this is a US war. Noone mentions that Canada always blindly follows the absolute worst choices that the US government makes, and when our country or our people suffer from those deliberate missteps, our government makes even worse choices to try and cover up the truth.
The truth is only a rare commodity when it is being controlled by criminals…so who exactly is concealing the truth today?
How the hell is this a US war, when terrorism is on a world wide scale? Just because your chair at the Starbucks hasn't been blown to smithereens YET, doesn't mean Canada shouldn't be involved.
Yours is the same attitude that many had at the onset of WWII when Jewish people, gays, JWs, Romani, and various other peoples were being indiscriminately totured and murdered.
I am sure glad I don't have you watching out for my sorry @ss.
god i hate the fiberals for trying to make the government look bad for not caring about torture.
The Liberals are a joke.
The tories are a bunch of thugs and liars
Yes, indeed it's all politics, but this also shows our character and morals as Canadians. Difficult and murky situations define one's morals and characters.
As per the Western world, the Middle East (except Israel), Africa, and Southern Asia are "uncivilized" and "barbarians". So, if they are blowing themselves up, have no respect for basic human rights, torture old men, women, and children, then should we (as citizens of a "civilized" country) and army do or condone the same behaviour? Should we stoop to their level or hold ourselves to a higher ground? What were the Canadian army generals and government expecting from Afghans; on one hand, they are an "uncivilized" bunch of morons and should never be trusted, and on the other hand, we are happy to negotiate with them on prisoner transfer? Heck, even US has that much sense, that they are not willing to transfer Uighurs from Guantanamo to Chinese officials because China will definitely torture them, even though, those Uighurs are cleared of all charges. Cont'd….