Inkless Wells

 Inkless Wells

Paul Wells on all the latest out of Ottawa—along with the occasional post about jazz. Follow Paul on Twitter: @InklessPW

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Behold the awesome supergenius of the PMO strategy box… uh, never mind

by Paul Wells on Friday, November 27, 2009 1:47pm - 64 Comments

Bloc “likely” to support HST bill

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

    A boat is a boat, but a strategy box could be anything!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    Heh. Someone in the PMO is probably feeling pretty sheepish right now!

  • Riley

    I think, as Wells has mentioned elsewhere, that people are tried of daily brinkmanship and just want a government that governs.

    Get on with it already. PS here in NB we've had HST for a while on all of our products and services… and guess what, our province didn't crumble and our citizens didn't go broke.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

      Riley, try telling that to crazy Tim Hudak here in Ontario

  • burlivespipe

    I think we British Columbians just want to see the Harper-drones stand up and vote yea on the HST to actually put the puzzle together… the tar and feathers will follow.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

      It is highly unpopular here. PM Harper has been trying to shift the blame for this one for some time. With Campbell's support plummeting, I wonder what he thought of Harper's grand theatrics yesterday.

  • Dot

    Thought I read somewhere that since Quebec wasn't offered incentives to harmonize their sales tax in the past, they would be looking for compensation once the Ontario and BC deals are finalized. In that context, the Bloc support is not surprising.

    • Mark R

      Yes but the catch is, Quebec has to agree to the same arrangment as BC and Ontario. They won't get compensations as is.

  • Michael

    Liberal or NDP support is always better than Bloc support. But as long as we're trying to turn a simple yes or no NON-CON into chess at knifepoint…

    what I'm really looking forward to is a future BC budget where collapsing polls force Campbell to shave 1 pt from the HST. And then seeing how long until McGunity matches.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

      Different politics over here in the big O. I do not believe it's actually an issue here.

  • Mike R

    At least a few Liberals, such as Martha Hall-Finlay, have already publicly defended the HST. It would be beyond belief that Ignatieff could force them to vote against what is, in any rational viewpoint, housekeeping legislation introduced at the request of provincial legislatures.
    I know everyone thinks everything in Ottawa is done with an eye on some Machiavellian plot. But sometimes government just governs and routine legislation is just routine legislation. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

      Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

      True. But everyone cans see that this time it's clearly a banana and Harper is now slipping on the peel.

      • Mike R

        Ummm, how? They propose legislation requested by two provincial governments and it apparently will sail through the Commons with only the NDP pointlessly opposing. How does this harm the government? Isn't that the sort of dull, competent legislative initiatives that people want to see – rather than all the pointless political gamesmanship of last fall? Believe me, no one 100 metres away from Parliament Hill wll even know this was an issue.

        • Ted

          Because the Federal Provincial Fiscal Arrangement Act already gives him the powers to implement the agreements he reached with BC and Ontario.

          Because Harper has already made commitments to BC and Ontario to do what he can to implement those agreements, and then he backs off his commitment by introducing legislation which could fail for no reason other than political brinkmanship.

          Should I go on or is that too much for you to digest already?

          • Mike R

            But it isn't going to fail is it? Nor was there any reasonable likelihood that it would. Why, by the way, would the Liberals even think of opposing the plan, given that the HST was their idea in the first place? I know consistency isn't their strong suit, but even they would have a hard time justifying a reversal on this.

            No, I think on this one people are just looking for things that just aren't there.

          • Ted

            You are changing the subject of your own question.

            You said this was just simple housekeeping legislation and asked how could this make Harper look bad, how it was a banana instead of cigar.

            I answered. It wasn't routine legislation. It wasn't "framework" legislation as the government claims. The framework exists. It was designed for political brinkmanship purposes and it failed in its purposes.

            So all that is left is two premiers wondering why he would make a commitment and then jeopardize it, and the rest of us wondering how he thought anyone would be duped by his transparent attempt to pass the buck.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            Actually, all that is left is two premiers wondering why Michael Ignatieff is being such a pain in their posteriors, after he indicated to them privately that he thinks the HST is good policy.

          • Ted

            Well that shoe hasn't fallen yet has it? If the Liberals support this unnecessary legislation then they may, but it will pass so who knows how much they will care.

            But I really have to think they are mighty pissed with Harper. He pushed the HST, he worked with them for over a year toward an agreement, he made commitments to them, and then he releases some MPs to criticize it here and there, and then instead of just implementing it like he said he would and like the law says he can, he makes it a political football and in the process risks the actual implementation of it.

            Not only that but he says if it is not passed, he won't even ever try to pass it again even though he has said it is "crucial" for prosperity.

            I don't think the premiers are restricted in the number of federal leaders they can be pissed off with.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            I don't think the HST was in any real jeopardy, and I'm sure the premiers know this. I doubt they are reading too much into some goofy PMO memo that was instantly disavowed by the Prime Minister.

            I disagree with your evidence-free speculation that the premiers are pissed off at Harper. At this point, I'm sure those two embattled premiers have a great deal more respect for the Prime Minister than they do for the Leader of the Opposition.

          • Ted

            I agree that Harper's quick retracting of his initial talking points as a result of angry calls from Campbell and McGuinty is speculative. I have no knowledge of any calls, that's for sure.

            But being pissed off at Harper? There's been lots of evidence of their frustration and anger with the Harper Conservatives playing political games with this and passing the buck. Here's just one example:

            "The federal Tories pushed, prodded and ultimately paid Ontario to adopt the harmonized sales tax and any effort to disown those actions smells like a rodent, Ontario Finance Minister Dwight Duncan said yesterday.

            "There are always rats in these debates," Duncan said, without naming any individuals.

            "It's always funny to watch those individuals who are trying to deny the $4.3 billion their government is giving us. It's fun to watch." "

          • wilson

            Have you even read the March 09 Canada-Ontario memorandum of agreement Ted?
            Read it!:

            ''Canada agrees to introduce legislation to enable the tax policy flexibility noted herein.''
            http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/en/agreements/moa_cita.h…

            These crackerjack journalists knew or should have known all along that legislation was coming down the pipe.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

          The legislation was intended to back the Liberals into a corner. With the Bloc now supporting it the Liberals can safely vote against it and reap the benefits of having BC and Ontario residents mad at the Conservatives for passing it.

          • Mike R

            Well, as I said, I don't discount the Liberal ability to say one thing and do another, but some of their spokespeople, like Ms Hall-Finlay, have been very clear in their support of the HST. I very much doubt she could be persuaded to vote against it. Of course, in BC, the Liberals are now pretty much a fringe party, so their opinion doesn't really matter on any substantive issue.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/danby danby

            Then why did the Conservatives do it?

          • Mike R

            I believe it is simply enabling legislation that will allow implementation of the HST if and when it is approved by the respective provinces. I understand some people think it isn't necessary at all, but that isn't my understanding. The Finance Department thinks the HST is a productivity-enhancer, and most economists seem to agree.

          • Ted

            It's not enabling legislation. It is redundant legislation.

            "8.3 (1) The Minister, with the approval of the Governor in Council, may on behalf of the Government of Canada enter into an agreement or arrangement with the government of a province respecting sales taxes…

            8.6. Notwithstanding any other Act, the payments paid under a sales tax harmonization agreement under the authority of section 8.4 or 8.5 may be made without any other or further appropriation or authority."

            My understanding is based upon the law. What is your understanding based upon?

          • Mike R

            Well, I'll confess I haven't read the proposed legislation, and really have no plans to do so. But I would point out that the sections you reference in the existing legislation refer to spending authority. It is agreed that the proposed legislation does not affect the government's spending authority – which is why it is not a confidence issue.

            But why do you think the Liberals were thinking of voting against the HST anyway? The notion seems bizarre, given their public support of it to date (and the fact they invented it, and it is two "Liberal" governments that are asking for its implementation). I suppose there could be some gamesmanship involved from the government's side – there often is – but this equally seems to be just ordinary government business. Anyway, its going to pass, so who cares about whether it was supposed to be a cunning plan or not?

          • Style

            Kris may be right – it could be an amendment to the Excise Act to give provinces the power to decide what products or services are exempt from the provincial portion of the HST. That might explain the Bloc's support. Reading the tabled legislation would clear this up.

          • Mark R

            I don't think the Liberals can "safely" vote against it. Sure the legislation will pass "safely" but it still would put the Liberals in a difficult position.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

      Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

      ———————
      And sometimes its an exploding cigar.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Dennis_F Dennis_F

      I'm also interested to see how the Liberals will approach this. Bob Rae is quoted in the Star today using a "skating" analogy to describe their predicament.

      However, since the legislation will pass, it's hard for me to see what political gains the Liberals will reap by opposing it. Will they promise to repeal it? No. Do they have a principled opposition to an HST that will resonate during a campaign? No, since they're the ones who essentially invented it.

      So, do we have another situation in which Iggy was shooting his mouth off, trying to tar Harper with this tax, while having no serious intention of backing his words with reality?

      Yup, Donolo still has his work cut out for him.

  • Dee

    Will anyone besides the media and politicos around Ottawa care about this story by tomorrow? Very unlikely.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

      I'm betting you don't live in either BC or Ontario.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Douglass Douglass

      Absolutely. The HST is a hot issue here (here is of course BC).

      • Dee

        I was actually referring to the lame attempt at gamemanship by the Conservatives towards the (federal) Liberals, which was quickly made moot by the BQ move.

        And yes, I live in BC and the HST has some people's dander up. Does it have long-term "legs"? I don't think so. You have to pay for those deficits somehow, and not just leave your fiscal mess to future generations.

    • Ted

      You know Harper has ended up with a good deal of egg on his face when they start talking about how few people outside of Ottawa will care.

  • Style

    I hope somebody from the BQ sends Wells a press release explaining this move. That might be interesting.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Inkless Inkless

      "Le HST a-t-il un avenir dans le Canada?"

  • Mike R

    Not really. Certainly the federal position on it is not much of an issue. People don't like taxes, of course, but I doubt the HST will have legs as a provincial issue, especially by the next election in 2013.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

      Voters react strongly to new taxes. Don't forget that the GST left the PCs with two seats in 1993.

      In the meantime, ….the really big news is that Tiger Woods has apparently been seriously injured in a late night car accident in front of his home.

      • jkl123

        And after bringing in the health surtax – which costs the average taxpayer more than the HST will – McGuinty was comfortably re-elected. Voters may react strongly to taxes, but they're also easily distracted by other things once the taxis in place.

  • Greg

    This being the first anniversary of the attempted coup, I say Harper should reject the Bloc's support as a matter of principle.

    • Amateur Hour

      "Attempted coup"?

      I must have missed the part where elected members of Parliament, the ones who determine whether a party in government holds the confidence of the House or not, stormed Parliament hill with pitchforks.

    • KOL

      As long as the bill passes, the government has the confidence of the House and Parliament cannot be dissolved. We have fixed election dates, you know…

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

        What is this "principle" of which you speak ?

  • Mulletaur

    I don't understand – why would the Bloc support the government on HST ? I thought that the PQ had been complaining that they didn't get a sweet deal like Ontario did with the cheques that are being cut by the feds to Ontarians.

    • wilson

      Why would the BLOC vote for the feds sticking their noses into provincial affairs?

      Hey, their could be a big cheque in it for them, and if it's good for Quebed….blah blah blah

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PoliticalPundit PoliticalPundit

    The Bloc has decided to support the HST legislation for BC and Ontario because Harper has promised Premier Charest a big fat Ottawa cheque to make up for the bad deal Quebec made when it opted in to Ottawa's tax harmonization scheme years ago.
    Gilles Duceppe's Bloc Québécois will reap the political reward for supporting the legislation which raises taxes in BC and Ontario!!! Charest's Liberal government will get more money to spend while Duceppe will hold on to the Bloc's seats.
    I wonder what the Reformatories in both of these provinces will make of Harper's devious HST scheme that allows the provincial governments of BC and Ontario to raise taxes right in the midst of Canada's worst recession since the 1930s.

    • Mike R

      Well, the HST won't come into effect in BC until next July. Since we are, by most reports, well out of the recession now and should be well recovered by that time, it is hardly "raising taxes right in the midst of Canada's worst recession". It is also, according to most economists, a substantial assist to business efficiency, which should help speed up the recovery. So, all in all, it seems a sensible thing to do, both in timing and substance, doesn't it?

    • Mulletaur

      "The Bloc has decided to support the HST legislation for BC and Ontario because Harper has promised Premier Charest a big fat Ottawa cheque to make up for the bad deal Quebec made when it opted in to Ottawa's tax harmonization scheme years ago."

      More special treatment for Quebec by the Harper Conservative government ? Say it ain't so, PP !

    • wilson

      This Reformatory likes it anytime the feds keep their noses out of provincial business.

      No federal govt has ever stopped a premier from harmonizing their taxes,
      why would the Harper govt interfer in provincial affairs?

      • Mulletaur

        Wow, that is the most ridiculous attempt at spinning a Harper Conservative government policy that I have ever seen, wilsonarse. Tell me, why then did Flaherty go around saying that Ontario was the 'worst place to invest' at the same time he was pressing Ontario and other provinces to introduce the HST ?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Mike514 Mike514

          "Wilsonarse?" Really?

          • wilson

            They get like that when cornered…..

        • wilson

          Actually, it's not ridiculous spin.
          But you'd have to give it some thought past how it affects the LPC Mulletaur.

          • Mulletaur

            I have given it a great deal of thought, and can see that harmonized sales tax is very good fiscal policy along the lines of the GST for a variety of reasons. For example, in Ontario the broadening of the tax base is being more than offset by reductions in income and corporate tax. Economists rarely agree on anything, but all agree that consumption taxes are preferable to income and corporate taxes, which reduce investment. What is ridiculous about your spin is that 'Diamond Jim' Flaherty hammered provincial governments to adopt this HST policy all the while doing exactly the opposite with his own fiscal policy, that is to say, keeping income taxes at about the same level while lowering the GST, very bad policy indeed. The Harper Conservatives are going to call a spring election before they have to wear the HST in Ontario and BC.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Lord_Bob Lord Bob

    Playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers!

  • Greg

    Who? Gilles Duceppe?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

    That must be relief for Iggy. He still gets time to decide if he's idea man or not.

  • wilson

    It was known that legislation was coming, the only question was when.
    Dippers were ranting last month Harper would make it a confidence vote to precipitate an election.
    Pundits thought Harper would slip it into the 2010 budget.

    March 2009 Canada-Ontario agreement:

    ''Canada agrees to introduce legislation to enable the tax policy flexibility noted herein.''
    http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/en/agreements/moa_cita.h…

    The genius here is that Harper said if the vote is defeated,
    the subject is closed now,
    and after the next election.

    That way the Libs can't defeat it now and in the last week of the next election campaign say a Harper majority will bring in the HST.
    (hey, they would throw McGuinty under the bus, you know it!)

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PoliticalPundit PoliticalPundit

    The Bloc has decided to support the HST legislation for BC and Ontario because Harper has promised Premier Charest a big fat Ottawa cheque to make up for the bad deal Quebec made when it opted in to Ottawa's tax harmonization scheme years ago.
    Gilles Duceppe's Bloc Québécois will reap the political reward for supporting the legislation which raises taxes in BC and Ontario!!! Charest's Liberal government will get more money to spend while Duceppe will hold on to the Bloc's seats.
    I wonder what the Reformatories in both of these provinces will make of Harper's devious HST scheme that allows the provincial governments of BC and Ontario to raise taxes right in the midst of Canada's worst recession since the 1930s.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

    solid tag work.

  • D-R

    Does this mean the Liberals will run adds about how the Cons conspired with the Bloc to raise Canada's taxes?

  • wilson

    It's not Harper's Tax anymore.
    Gilles kinda foiled that plan, eh.

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