Colby Cosh

Colby Cosh

Maclean’s man in Edmonton writes about everything. Follow Colby on Twitter: @colbycosh

Norwich, we still have a problem

by Colby Cosh on Saturday, November 28, 2009 9:06am - 357 Comments

Laymen who have understandably decided to accept what much of the media now treats as axiomatic–that humans are causing potentially catastrophic global warming–must now be suffering some anxiety over the leaked e-mails from the Climatic Research Unit. Is an opinion leader like George Monbiot right to view this as a serious matter, or should they believe the reassurances of somebody like, say, Toronto Star environment columnist Peter Gorrie?

I ask solely as a matter of media-consumer interest, because, realistically, what Gorrie writes doesn’t matter to a climate-change skeptic, or to anyone with the time and the quantitative training to follow a scientific debate on his own. It matters to the guy on the subway who avoided Stats 101 as if it had horns and fangs, and that guy is now getting conflicting signals. I presume Gorrie would agree that his job is not just to confirm that reader’s prejudices–though people do like having their prejudices confirmed, and any argument a columnist can make will confirm somebody’s.

Like other columnists covering the CRU leak, Gorrie zooms in on just one “example” from the e-mails; although the etymology and sound of that word “example” would seem to imply some element of randomness in the selection, many of these columnists are choosing the same e-mail, because it contains an apparent faux pas that is relatively easy to explain away:

In one email, the research unit’s director, Phil Jones, refers to work by another scientist, Michael Mann, published in the journal Nature: “I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series … from 1961 … to hide the decline.”

“Trick” doesn’t refer to sleight of hand; it’s jargon for a good, useful solution to a research problem. The problem in question relates to the fact that one method used to estimate temperatures over centuries – measuring tree rings – doesn’t give good recent results. But actual observations, the “real temps,” were available.

It’s much easier to understand “scandal” than even that simplified explanation.

He’s right about the word “trick.” Scientists do use the word to describe simple solutions to sincere research problems. It does not, on its own, imply deception. The real problem with the Jones e-mail is the part about “hiding the decline.” The issue, really, is right there in Gorrie’s paragraph: tree rings appear to have serious problems as a means of inferring global surface temperatures from before human records were kept. As an abstract of the Briffa study Jones was discussing notes:

…tree-ring density records become de-coupled from temperature after 1950, possibly due to some large-scale human influence that caused wood densities to decline. Thus, the reconstructed temperature record after 1960 is considered unreliable.

Jones’ “trick” was to graft observed temperature data from after 1960 onto a line showing temperatures merely inferred from tree rings. If you just reported the tree-ring data straight-up, they would suggest that the earth has cooled since 1960, which conflicts with what we know was happening (assuming there are no biases in the temperature observations, but that’s another battleground several miles away).

In one sense you could argue that this is a “trick” in the innocent meaning of the term, a real answer to a real problem: Jones only meant to “hide” a presumptively nonexistent “decline”. But an ordinary person looking at a graph doesn’t expect the underlying data to be spliced together from two different sources if the point of the graph is to highlight what one source (the tree rings) tells us. Moreover, the divergence between the predictions of the tree-ring model and real post-1960 temperatures is a legitimate problem in paleoclimate reconstruction. (“Some large-scale human influence” on “wood densities”? Oh, hell, what about the fairy hypothesis? Couldn’t woodland sprites have sprinkled magic dust on those trees?)

In “hiding the decline”, Jones was thus proposing to “hide” a weakness in the research itself. IPCC peer reviewers squawked about this “hiding” when it was done in another way, by simply cutting off the data at 1960. As a matter of scientific ethics, Jones’s “trick” sucks. Though it’s still probably not one of the four or five most ethically troubling statements in the leaked CRU e-mails, even considering just the ones made by Jones.

Gorrie could have minimized the offence in dealing with this cherry-picked example of malfeaseance; instead, he handwaved it away completely. But then there’s a lot of handwaving in this column, like the obnoxious complaint that environmental reporters are being asked to “parse e-mails” (which, as described above, he goes on to do in a tendentious, half-hearted way) instead of “focusing on the evidence of human-made climate change”. As if the debate over the CRU e-mails was anything other than an argument about the provenance and quality of the most important body of a posteriori evidence for human-made climate change.

Gorrie also says, sympathetically, that climate scientists “resent having to respond to skeptics.” Well, who the hell doesn’t? That’s like saying that prosecutors resent the threat of having unfairly acquired evidence excluded from the courtroom, or that ballplayers resent the danger of getting picked off first base. They can resent it all they like, but it’s there in the rules of the game, for good reasons. Q: What do you call a scientist who can’t accept criticism from “skeptics”? A: Anything you like, as long as it’s not “scientist”.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Lord_Bob Lord Bob

    Also, a clarification: the London Free Press just seems to be carrying a Sun Media wire story. Peter Zimonjic, the author, spends a great deal of time working the climate change beat.

  • peter

    I really hope some of the commenters here who can still think criticaly soon realize that there is unlikely to be much change in the trajectory of events…in spite of overwhelming evidence that the AGW hypothesis is bunk.

    By way of illustation, let's review some other "beliefs" which coincidently support bank accounts and geopolitical gain. Let's start with Wall St./The Fed and bailouts…anyone see a change in the policy which led to the problem? The Iraq invasion? Something about making the facts fit the policy come to mind. Bush 2000…one-off Supreme Court decision. Ohio 2004? Peak oil? Illinios corruption and Obama and his chief of staff?…nothing to see here citizen. How about the flu shots and the great H1N1 scare…oops. How about GMOs being "substantially eqivalent" to natural products. How about the global push to demonize natural health products?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      If you have overwhelming evidence that AGW is bunk, you should really present it in a scientific paper.

      After all, that means you've either proven that mankind doesn't create CO2, or that CO2 does not increase radiative forcing on the climate.

      • peter

        Funny thing about that, I tried to get the raw data to hypothesis test the AGW theory, but to my consternation discovered it was "absent" as in deleted. When I inquired as to the propriety of deleting the raw data the AGW projections were based on I was branded a denier and vilified for doubting…."but science isn't about faith", I protested. "It's supposed to be about proof".

        "Like the almighty Oz says, 'don't look behind the curtain', everything is just as we say", I was admonished.

        Clearly I'm making this up in the personal sense, but this is exactly the trajectory of events…and you're buying it?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

          Funny thing about that.. try going to the original sources instead of asking CRU to violate the agreements they have with the original sources.

  • peter

    cont. (sorry)
    Each of these "issues" shares a common denominator…"the perverse golden rule…he who has the gold rules". If you drill down far enough into the BS you will find the same interests are behind all these "conundrums". It has nothing to do with any idealogy other than "power at all cost"… I shudder to contemplate the "end game" because we are all in love with ideas we don't understand that have been marketed like cornflakes for generations.

    Politicaly all that needs to be done is appeal to one standard deviation either side of the mean in public opinion and we have consensus. sadly almost no one seems to understand that "their" phiosophy is just a product, marketed for gain by someone. The real ruling class has two thousand years (at least) of private data to draw on.

  • Mike T.

    After reading Canwest's take on the closing of the Jonquierre plant, I am more and more confident in my choice to accept the word of scientists over journalists.

    • peter

      They both work fo the same funders. Both are constrained from having "public thoughts" other than those approved by their funders.

      • Craig O

        Again, climatologists get funded largely by NSERC, the government-run funding agency.

        Even for a conspiracy theorist, claiming that the Conservative government is squashing research funding of AGW skeptics is a stretching things a bit, given their continued stance on the issue, and the Conservative's funding bases.

        • peter

          Show me the financial staements and the total amout invested by the feds. BTW what the "government does" and what the party and many individuals (up to and including the PM) think are NOT the same thing.

          Then my disingenous friend explain the Soros, Rothchild, hedge fund positions.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

            Oh for god's sake peter.

            If you're going to make a bunch of claims, at least *try* to prove them yourself first. At this point, you're demanding that Craig O try to figure out what the hell you're talking about, then go and prove you right.

            Take some responsibility for what you're claiming.

          • peter

            Craig O is very likely a "propagandist", high probability he works for a PR company, or is in the PR department of either a university or biotech concern (or a hedge fund). He made two utterly outrageous statements, just today. 1. there's no money in AGW and 2. that the analogy between the corruption in medical journal publishing and the current kerfuffle in climate science are somehow unrelated. They are peas in a pod.

            As to the finacial positions of the above mentioned organizations try some reading beyond the Star or G &M. George Soros is the money behind moveon.org. The Penton Group built the reputation of both moveon and real climate science. Real climate science is run by the founder of Environmental Defence, who also was Al Gore's communication director in 2000. I'm sure this level of coziness is comforting to you but it makes my skin crawl.

            The Economist and Nature have both also been cited here as authoritative, do some digging and see who own and runs them and where their funding comes from.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Lord_Bob Lord Bob

      I hope you don't uncritically take anyone's word. Particularly not someone paid to give it to you.

  • jarrid

    People that want to hear both sides of the global warming issue should look up climatedebatedaily.com.

    It is a good clearinghouse for articles on this issue.

    • Holly Stick

      That actually does look like a decent website. But you should have figured out by that there is a consensus that AGW is happening.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

      And for people interested in the ongoing Round Earth/Flat Earth debate, please visit roundvsflat.org.

      Lemme see if I can site a place with a good debate of Evolution vs God's Divine Intervention, gotta be one somewhere.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/colbycosh colbycosh

        I hope any good Darwinian would be appalled by the implication that global warming has the same sort of evidence behind it that Darwinian evolution does. Let's leave poor Charlie out of this.

        • peter

          See Ben Stein's "Expelled"…the phenomena is the same. AGW relies on a post-modern-nihlist world view where there is no such thing as "truth", only consensus.

          The older I get the more I am confronted by the lies I was sold in my youth…and used to support.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

            "See Ben Stein's "Expelled""

            FAIL

            Ben Stein's 'Expelled' was a perfect example of the kind of shameless charlatanism behind the global warming denials. The phenomenon is exactly the same: take a bunch of right-wingers committed to an agenda, give them access to science they don't understand and stand back while they make asses of themselves with gross misinterpretations and misunderstandings.

            Honestly Peter, you really should seek better sources.

          • peter

            I suggest a short course on Thomas Aquinas TJ. His deductive and inductive reasoning has challenged the best and brightest for around a thousand years. With the power of mind he intuited the divine nature of creation. If I recall correctly from 35 years ago, start with Summa Contra Gentiles sp? (ch.13)

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

          Thanks – as a qualified (but not practicing) biologist, I know what I'm talking about.

          It's the tactics of the creationists I'm talking about here. Those people were not arguing in good faith. And neither are the climate change deniers at large, who are employing the same shameless tactics.

          For example, while the existence of the process of evolution hasn't been in question for a very long time, the fine details of how it happens are the subject of ongoing passionate debate among scientists. Creationists frequently cherry-picked quotes from that debate and misrepresented them as "proof" that evolution itself doesn't exist.

          Sound familiar? Ultimately, there is no debate worth having with these people. They don't hold themselves to any standard whatsoever, but they hold science to a ridiculous standard that excludes jargon, informal communication and the day-to-day back-and-forth of very human people.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

            "but they hold science to a ridiculous standard"

            Presenting your work so others can test your conclusions is a ridiculous standard?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

            No – but nice try.

            The ridiculous standard is to take anything – anything – that can be misrepresented as evidence that the science is a scam. Any stupid, sh*tty act by any scientist, any juvenile insults, and (in the case of AGW) any jargon that can be waved like a bloody shirt is good enough for the deniers.

            Meanwhile the deniers (of evolution or of climate change) will never hold themselves to the standard of scientists. Just look at the crap consistently turned out by McIntyre and McKitrick. If they were scientists, they'd have been laughed out of the profession now, either for incompetence or dishonesty. But here they are today, as deniers, being favourably quoted by Cosh as though their work was valuable and reliable.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/colbycosh colbycosh

            I didn't quote either McIntyre or McKitrick. But, since you mention them, McIntyre's nitpicking was responsible for the discovery of a significant flaw in realtime GISS temperature-data reporting two years ago, a flaw which GISS acknowledged, corrected, and thanked McIntyre by name for spotting. The Goddard Institute and James Hansen are just as passionate about this debate as their "human" colleagues at the CRU (to say the least), but somehow they were able to overcome their "humanity" and act like grown-ups toward a critic. How is such a thing possible, I wonder?

        • Holly Stick

          Evolution: large and growing body of evidence for it, gathered for more than a century
          Creationism: ignorant, irrational and/or dishonest

          AGW: large and growing body of evidence for it, gathered for more than a century
          AGW denialism: ignorant, irrational and/or dishonest

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

          I think I'd argue that our understaning of Climate is roughly equal to Chucky D's 19th century understanding of natural selection.
          The reception of the Lovelock/Margulis hypothesis is a lot like the natural selection reception- natural scientists, both young and old, flat out denied that the natural systems, in both cases, could have that much agency. Within a fairly short time, natural scientists didn't really have any other choice but to accept the new paradigm, but the transition was incredibly bitter.
          Perhpas it isn't a coincidence that society is reacting in similar ways.

          So sure, leave poor Charlie out…..but their is a very, very good chance that our grandchildren will speak about Lovelock in the same terms we speak about our intrepid ship-borne naturalist

      • jarrid

        Yup, global warming is as evident as the world is round.

        Then why does Professor Phil Jones want to keep out those who dissent?

        "We will keep them out somehow – even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!" – Phil Jones.

        Wow! This is staggering. That man should be fired. Why is he still employed?

        The tide will turn on this AGW hysteria. It will go down in history as one of the biggest con jobs imaginable and some people's reputations will never recover.

  • Asram Mohamed

    Colby Cosh isn't a scientist. He's not even provocative, as hard as he tries. Just noise, looped to repeat. Unfortunately for the world, he has sycophants for some reason.

    http://www.realclimate.org/?comments_popup=2019
    http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/a6zdw/su…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    This situation is starting to look very bad.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

      What I am finding interesting is some global warming scientists are speaking out against other climatologists. The scientific method has been corrupted by many and proper scientists, ones who believe in agw but are not well known like Mann or Jones, are appalled.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

        That is exactly what needs to happen. Since the media (excepting journalists like Cosh) has bought the scam hook, line and sinker, and the media themselves are the last people to question things these days, we need to scientists that have a reasonable amount of integrity to start making noise. There has been some noise in the past but it has been drowned out by the scammers.

        • peter

          Whistle blowing is a career destroyer. Guys like Health Canada's Chiv Chopra, his recent book is titled "Corrupt to the Core, My 35 years at Health Canada" explains in agonizing detail his journey after he blew the whistle on a Monsanto bribe he was offered to approve rGBH.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            No doubt you are correct. there comes a time when someone may ask themselves whether it's better than playing along with a scam. In this case, it will be easier to blow the whistle if others are doing it as well.

            And also, in this case, the fraud will be obvious in 10, 20, 30 years as the predictions of the climate doomsayers continue to be proven false in the same way they have for the last 20 years.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

        Please name the scientists who have "spoken out", and describe their qualifications.

        Then please let us know what proportion of the world's climate scientists these people represent.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

          http://www.heartland.org/events/NewYork09/index.h…

          Is Freeman Dyson or Richard Lindzen good enough for you? Jesus, you're obtuse. You keep repeating the same things over and over again.

          As for their proportions, I really don't care what proportion they are. What matters is the truth. There was a time when 99% of scientists thought the earth was flat. There was a time when 99% of scientists thought that ulcers were caused by stress (that time was a few years ago).

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

            Ah scf, with your usual ignorant/triumphant tone, off-the-cuff insults and ridiculous sources.

            Seriously, the Heartland Institute? How credible is the Heartland Institute, Wikipedia?

            "Heartland has been criticized for employing executives from such corporations as ExxonMobil and Philip Morris on its board of directors and in its public relations department."

            "The Heartland Institute received $561,500 from ExxonMobil between 1998 and 2005. This included $119,000 in 2005, its largest gift to Heartland in that period. Nearly 40% of funds from ExxonMobil were specifically designated for climate change projects."

            Thanks Wikipedia! A rightwing "think tank" funded by the carbon industry? I think they're probably not very credible at all.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            They're one of the sponsors, not the speakers, you idiot. I answered your questions and now you've gone off with some completely off-topic and irrelevant tangent.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

          "Based upon feedback that I’ve received from graduate students at Georgia Tech, I suspect that you are confused, troubled, or worried by what you have been reading about ClimateGate and the contents of the hacked CRU emails. After spending considerable time reading the hacked emails and other posts in the blogosphere, I wrote an essay that calls for greater transparency in climate data and other methods used in climate research."

          Judith Curry
          Chair, School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences
          Georgia Institute of Technology

          http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/27/an-open-let…

          Why I think that Michael Mann, Phil Jones and Stefan Rahmstorf should be barred from the IPCC process

          Short answer: because the scientific assessments in which they may take part are not credible anymore.

          A longer answer: My voice is not very important. I belong to the climate-research infantry, publishing a few papers per year, reviewing a few manuscript per year and participating in a few research projects. I do not form part of important committees, nor I pursue a public awareness of my activities. My very minor task in the public arena was to participate as a contributing author in the Fourth Assessment Report of the IPCC.

          Eduardo Zorita
          Scientist at the Institute for Coastal Research

          http://coast.gkss.de/staff/zorita/

          There's two for a start.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

            "There's two for a start."

            Well, except that both those quotes are about public relations, not the actual science.

            And 2 climate scientists represent .08% of the 2500 who reviewed the IPCC report on climate change. Not much of a start, really.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

            "I may confirm what has been written in other places: research in some areas of climate science has been and is full of machination, conspiracies, and collusion, as any reader can interpret from the CRU-files. They depict a realistic, I would say even harmless, picture of what the real research in the area of the climate of the past millennium has been in the last years. The scientific debate has been in many instances hijacked to advance other agendas.

            These words do not mean that I think anthropogenic climate change is a hoax. On the contrary, it is a question which we have to be very well aware of. But I am also aware that in this thick atmosphere -and I am not speaking of greenhouse gases now- editors, reviewers and authors of alternative studies, analysis, interpretations,even based on the same data we have at our disposal, have been bullied and subtly blackmailed. In this atmosphere, Ph D students are often tempted to tweak their data so as to fit the 'politically correct picture'. Some, or many issues, about climate change are still not well known. Policy makers should be aware of the attempts to hide these uncertainties under a unified picture."

            It would be helpful if you took time to read what I actually wrote and not what's in your feverish imagination. It would also be helpful if you took time to read what those two scientists wrote because they deal with more than presentation.

            The two scientists I mentioned are agw-believers and are not happy that others let themselves be corrupted. Why does that bother you? All they are saying is that they wish Manning was more worried about proper science than Siemans cash.

            "I'm in the process of trying to persuade Siemens Corp. (a company with half a million employees in 190 countries!) to donate me a little cash to do some CO2 measur[e]ments here in the UK — looking promising," wrote Andrew Manning, a climate-science research fellow at the University of East Anglia, "so the last thing I need is news articles calling into question (again) observed temperature increases."

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

            Ok – so in your earlier post there was nothing relevant to the science of AGW. In your most recent post, you have some awkward accusations of conformist pressures in the science.

            And – what? I'm suppose to discount the massive and diverse body of science which supports AGW based on that? From one guy? Even if it is true, there's no evidence here that the actual data have been impacted by these alleged (by one guy) pressures, much less that the overall conclusion of the IPCC is incorrect due to this.

            Let me make a suggestion for you Jolyon: build a strong anti-AGW case. Step 1: hold the deniers to these sorts of standards. As usual, the scientists are held to the purest, lily-white standards by a bunch of unqualified nobodies, while any convincing-sounding wanker with a blog is suddenly the Premier Expert if their conclusions are in line with what you want to believe.

            Oh, and the "fevers" of my imagination, having nothing to do with global warming, are nobody's business but my own.

          • Megalomediac

            The qualifications of deniers/skeptics is discussed at some length in the Financial Post today. I’d say at least two or three have credentials that make them worth a careful listen, moreover the uneasy coughing of a few AGW-supporters speaks volumes too.

            At some point everyone will have to realize that this is an EXTREMELY large elephant, and dwelling on just one point of the anatomy is ridiculous. Meanwhile the ice-caps aren’t exactly roaring back.

            Me, I’m going to keep harping on ALBEDO. Hell, some renegade scientist on the CBC Link the other morning even thinks like Cerebral Old Me: saying that having devices on all sea-going ships to turn sea-water into mist could compensate for a DOUBLING (I’m almost wondering if I REALLY heard that…) of atmospheric CO2. Wonky as it seems, it still sounds better than shutting down the world economy on a semi-educated hunch that this might help…

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

        Jolyon,
        I think you're right that there are a lot of scientists wh are like Monbiot, and are appaled at how dissenting views are handled by some of their peers.
        I think sinking ship is taking it alittle too far though……I think scientists may fight a little about the exact course to plot, and spend a great deal of time figuring out how to rig the sails without murdering each other in rage every time some pulls a sheet instead of a halyard….
        …..but I'll bet you they all still agree on the general directions

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

    Good post Cosh, you've probably generated as many comments in two posts about this issue as some of your fellow bloggers generate in a year.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

      "Honest and objective observers know that this science is very inconclusive and in many ways flawed"

      Perhaps you could name these observers. I'm sure they're qualified and experienced climate scientists, no?

      • mungman

        Stop appealing to authority on this topic, the authorities are the ones wearing the ethical dirt. Dr. Mann is being investigated by his university on this now.

        http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/28/mann-to-inv…

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

          So I shouldn't "appeal to authority", I should just take *you* at your word?

          Anybody who claims to "know" what these emails mean is neither honest nor objective. Following your link, the university is reviewing these emails now to determine whether an investigation should be held. That's not the same thing as an investigation, now is it?

          Anybody leaping to conclusions like you AGW deniers has never been honest or objective and should not be trusted to draw conclusions on the topic.

          • Bill D. Cat

            Sooner or later it is going to dawn on you that this is now a political issue that was brought about by corrupred scientific method .

            Anybody leaping to conclusions like you AGW <s>deniers </s> scientists has never been honest or objective and should not be trusted to draw conclusions on the topic.

            Savour the irony .

          • Holly Stick

            No, people who are ignorant of the science have tried to make it into just a political issue, because they are not willing to face reality. It's the result of the corrupted, dishonest partisanship which infests what rightwingers mistake for discourse these days.

  • http://coyne kc

    The Cult of the Amateur – Andrew Keen – Books – Review – New York …
    29 Jun 2007 … Andrew Keen points out in his provocative new book that Web 2.0, … who had edited thousands of Wikipedia articles and was once one of the …
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/books/29book.html

    Many on here are no doubt familiar with this gentleman. If not you should be. Not by any means the final word of course…but nontheless a healthy dash of cold water on the modern day phenomenom of the “instant” expert. I certainly hope journos like Cosh have given his views some consideration. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing Colby,as i’m sure you’d agree.
    As a scientific neophyte i’ll start to pay real attention to these kind of stories when i see blogs like this full of qualified scientist debating these issues…not blogs full of the half informed skeptics and occasionally loony conspiracy theorists. The more i see of folks like Steyn and maybe Cosh[ i not that familiar with him] the more i’m inclined to tune out. It’s not the raising of uncomfortable ideas and tilting at sacred cows up windmills that bother me, it’s the army of sycophants that seem to feel “their” views, or those of their favourite critic should be given equal billing along side people who are qualified to have an opinion.

    And to save some of you the effort, no, this not an aplogia for bad science, unethical behaviour or thoughtful skepticism.

    • peter

      Spoken like a statist fer sure…and what is your opinion on elections? Let me guess, they're fair and honest as long your guy wins? Oh sorry there's no substance in elections and no complex concepts are involved in national governance…we peons are too stupid to tell liars from flakes from fascists.

      • LC Bennett

        It pretty much ends trial by jury too. That legal stuff is just too complicated. I am sure that bureaucrats and other suitable professionals would be a much better choice for rendering proper judgments. I mean look at the success of the CHRC, except for recently, they have a 100% conviction rate.

        • kcm

          'I am sure that bureaucrats and other suitable professionals would be a much better choice for rendering proper judgments"

          Did IQs suddenly drop around here? where did i mention bureaucrats at all? I guess i should have said climate scientists…my bad. Of course i meant no one else should have a say. All it needs now is for avr to drop by and start yelling; APPEAL TO AUTHORITY!!!

      • http://coyne kc

        Well, well. I knew i’d attract someone.

        ‘…we peons are too stupid to tell liars from flakes from fascists”

        Yep, yep. That’s exactly what i meant…carry on…i believe you were busy with some conspiracy or other.

        • peter

          Where can I get a kc color poster? I need to pay homage to your "wisdom". For the record do some cursory google searches on Jimbo Wales and the rampant corruption at Wikipedia. May I suggest "Patrick Byrne" +naked short selling +wikipedia. Since you are quoting a source who was/is an active participant in a proven fraud perhaps it's possible you are merely duped and not just another fanatic in love with an idea you haven't thought through.

          Elsewhere I showed the connections between Realclimatenews, Environmental Media Services and Al Gore and George Soros. When you dig down you find the same crooks who have been involved in a series of scams and shady deals for the past twenty years…all revolving around cash and geopolitics…nothing to see here citizen, move along.

  • jarrid

    We have a real Canadian hero in this whole controversy in Stephen McIntyre.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

      He does not seem to get as much attention but Ross McKitrick also deserves recognition.

      Makes me proud to have two Canadians fighting the good fight.

      If McKitrick/McIntyre had done as much for agw as they have to reveal it's shoddiness, I think they would be order of canada appointees by now.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      Unquestionably.

    • Holly Stick

      "…But now McIntyre has admitted that he had the data all along. The data wasn't Briffa's and back in 2006, Briffa referred McIntyre to the original source…"

      "…He had it all along and despite writing thousands and thousands of words about Yamal somehow somehow failed to mention this until now…."

      http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/10/mcintyre_…

      http://www.desmogblog.com/mcintye-attack-hockey-s…

      and What's the difference between degrees and radians, McKitrick?
      http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2004/08/mckitrick…

    • jarrid

      He's the guy who debunked Michael Mann's "Hockey Stick Graph". Mann collaborates with Phil Jones, the serial e-mail deleter at CRU.

  • jarrid

    What about Phil Jones' comment about wanting to redefine peer review to keep competing viewpoints out? Oops! That's quite a horrendous comment. Explain that baby away TJ.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

    "you idiot"

    Par for the course with you, scf. I've come to expect little more than juvenile insults and sh*tty data.

    Hey Jolyon, you pleased with the company you keep?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      And one more thing, you a**. Jolyon does not keep my company any more than you do. If he happens to agree with me, then that's up to him. You seem to be incapable of debating an issue, all you ever do is try to divert the discussion to a innuendo about the participants.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      And where's the link to media matters? That's your modus operandi. Let's have the link.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

        Oh, I know how you "operate".

        You're making your usual amount of sense here. Thanks for the value-add dude. Your mom's just about to call you for dinner anyway.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

    What's your next tangent? Are you gonna start going off about the hotel? Maybe the caterers? How about the taxi-drivers? I'm sure they're a giant conspiracy funded by big oil. We have the president of the Euro Union and representatives from universities like MIT and you're talking about the sponsor!

  • Craig O

    The "hide the decline" part of the comment is just as misleading without context as the "trick" part. In reality, nothing's been hidden at all, it's presented in the report that the scientists are discussing.

    The whole thing was published in Nature (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v391/n6668/a… arguably the most widely read and respected scientific journal. Cosh's comments here, about tree rings, are exactly what's in the abstract of the article. Far from being hidden, or part of a plot, this information has been available for 10 years now, in a journal that is extremely prestigious to be published in.

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      Link to the Nature article. (Abstract only, subscription – or pay by article – required for full text)

    • peter

      I suggest a quick read of Marcia Angell's (former editor in chief of the NEJM and a Harvard academic) "The Truth About The Drug Comapnies: How they Decieve Us and What To Do About It "

      As the ultimate insider in professional journal publishing, her blistering critique of the rampant corruption in academic/peer review publishing, from ghost writing to data manipulation for private gain, her book should be required reading for all who still think "science' is some sort of "public trust". It may have always been a "whore's Bazaar" but if not so much in the past that is what it has become today. Like the old car adverisement "this is not your fathers Science."

      • Craig O

        A claim I always hear from climate skeptics is that I should "follow the money", to see corruption.

        The problem is that climatologists get their funding from NSERC, not private enterprises, and their research supports policies, not products. There is no incidence of ghost writing and data manipulation has been nothing but conjecture, including with these e-mails, when it comes to climatology.

        I read Angell's report a while back. It's a good read, and an important lesson about keeping corporations out of the way of science, especially ones who are particularly rich and have vested interests. In the AGW debate, where do you think the money is? There aren't many successful companies with truly environmentally friendly products and those that are successful aren't exactly large or rich. Furthermore, while research on drugs deals directly with the products in question, no climatologists publish papers about specific products on the market, meaning there's little incentive for companies to buy off these scientists (if they had money, which again, they don't).

        But there is money on the other side of the debate. Oil, gas and coal companies are large, well funded and would definitely be against any moves to cut carbon emissions. If there's any threat of corruption for personal gain, follow the money – because it doesn't lead to AGW theory supporters.

        • Holly Stick

          As documented by Jim Hoggan:

          "Starting in the early 1990s, three large American industry groups set to work on strategies to cast doubt on the science of climate change. Even though the oil industry’s own scientists had declared, as early as 1995, that human-induced climate change was undeniable, the American Petroleum Institute, the Western Fuels Association (a coal-fired electrical industry consortium) and a Philip Morris-sponsored anti-science group called TASSC all drafted and promoted campaigns of climate change disinformation…."

          http://www.desmogblog.com/climate-cover-up

        • peter

          No there's no money in the biggest proposed re-distribution of global wealth in history in the midst of the death throes of theold finacial order. No I must be stupidly reading the WRONG economic projections. Angell's report is far more than a good read, it is a petri dish of this exact phenomena…careerists and sycophants combined with "big money and the promise of more" whoring out for personal gain because "all the successful scientists are doing it."

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

      The point of the journal paper is that the tree ring data can't be relied on, and therefore that global warming may be worse than originally predicted. It's nuts. On the one hand they admit that the tree ring data is unreliable, and on the other hand they proceed to conclude that the prior conclusions are not only valid but even more so.

      As to Nature, yes it's a highly respected journal. That does not mean that it is immune to junk papers and politicized review. I've seen at least one case of this personally, in another Nature journal.

      • Holly Stick

        Cite the article.

      • Craig O

        I know most people don't have access to the article, but since I do, I decided to take a read through it. For one, the authors are very up front about the apparent inconsistency of tree ring data. The reason they say that global warming may be worse is that models at the time assumed that the trees the scientists were studying (mostly boreal ones near the northren tree line) were strong carbon sinks. This research casts significant doubt on that assumption – meaning any further emissions would exacerbate AGW even more than previously thought.

        It's an important distinction – they've used temperatures to predict tree ring data, and found it to be lacking. This invalidates either the temperatures (which were found using other means, not tree ring data), or the model. Given that the model is an abstraction from data and the temperatures are empirical data derived and confirmed by various sources, it makes far more sense to discard the model, rather than the data, which is what they authors proposed in their conclusion.

        Furthermore, I got to see the "hiding" of the data. Turns out, it's not really hidden at all. In the plots, a decline is noticeable – in fact, they've gone out of their way to shade areas in which there is a decline.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/colbycosh colbycosh

          Huh? Phil Jones wasn't referring to the Briffa paper when he referred to "hiding the decline". He was talking about preparing a chart for the WMO Statement on the Status of the Global Climate (1999). No presentation of the data made by Briffa at any point is at issue. Of course Briffa's own paper about the decoupling would mention the decoupling fairly prominently.

          • Craig O

            The point is that the trick used to "hide the decline" is the same used in Briffa's paper. Why would a technique be completely legitimate in one article, but suspect in another?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/colbycosh colbycosh

            Because in the context of the paper the necessity for the "trick" is highlighted and explained, exactly as you have been describing. In the other context it's just a scary-looking line on a chart; the "decline" in temps implied by the recent tree-ring data has literally been hidden.

          • Craig O

            Actually, reading the article, I couldn't find any explanation of the trick. They show a decline in tree rings, and a rise in temperatures, no explanation for the data of the temperatures. Rather, it's the decline in tree rings that is discussed, and contrasted against what would be expected in current models.

            I think you've got things backwards – in Braffa's paper, the temperatures are assumed true (not derived from tree rings) and the tree ring data diverges from what we would expect. Basically, temperature is treated as the independent variable, not the dependent variable.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            Except that for data prior to 1880 they are assuming tree ring data is either accurate or biased high, after admitting that it's basically crap for the 20th century and they have no idea why.

          • Craig O

            Gaunilon, you're misreading it. They don't assume that tree ring data maps to temperature, they're saying that's what they used to assume and that, with the new data, the assumption is wrong. They speculate a correction, based on the new data, which then leads to the conclusion. This is good science – it takes an established theory, finds and inconsistency and then attempts to correct for the inconsistency.

            You act like this is some obvious logical flaw, that the editors of Nature, as well as hundreds of climatologists and just as many graduate and undergraduate students have missed. You've read the report incorrectly and your interpretation is flawed.

            I've already explained why the conclusion makes perfect sense, but I'll do it again – if climatologists assumed tree ring data was well correlated with temperature and CO2 levels, they incorporated its extra power as a carbon sink into the models for projections. This research invalidates that assumption, because it seems that the trees will not adapt to higher temperatures and CO2 levels as we expected. This means more CO2 in the atmosphere and oceans (the bad CO2 deposits) and less in the biosphere (the good CO2 deposit) accelerating the effect of increased carbon emissions because of the weaker-than-expected natural buffer.

            The temperature data in Briffa's paper is not derived from tree ring data, it is used to judge the correlation. The correlation is invalidated, not the temperatures.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

            (random carbon cycle geekiness)

            Craig,
            have you seen some of the experimental forest co2 under higher temperatures papers?

            There is still a eck of a lot of contradictory information, but I think there are some robust results from Scandinivan boreal experimental plots thats are finally givign some solid empirical basis for the theory that increased co2 uptake with temperature has a temperature threshold.

            ….but I can't remember the reference :(

          • Craig O

            I haven't seen that, but it sounds pretty interesting and would confirm this paper, which would be pretty exciting. I also wonder what the results would be from a temperate or tropical forest – maybe it's just boreal forests that fail to thrive under higher temperatures?

          • peter

            I'ts been years since I looked into experimental design, but Craig O's dissembling above reminds me of the "null hypothesis" ie, AGW Null hypothesis: no correleation between tree rings and temperature. Conduct experiment (collect tree ring data), run statistical test for correlation. Eureka! there is a correlation. Ergo Null Hypothesis invalid, thus tree rings/temperature valid area of study, start applying for grants to continue study.

            I could be off here a tad as I am admittedly no science star and it has been ten years since I worked on clinical trial design, but this is the methodology in medicine that leads to "correlation is not causation" arguments (ie zero incidence of autism in never vaccinated Amish children doesn't mean their absence of symptoms is related to never being vaccinated, but must be some other causal factor).

            So for obvious correlations like high blood serum vitamin D levels and absence of "flu like illness" much of thel research community will blow off the correlation because it is not causation, ditto for the correlation with autism.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

            gaunilon,
            There is about a century and a half of really good instrumental temp records for the northern hemisphere. More than two centuries for Europe.
            So out of the century and a half of high quality instrumental, 2/3 of the data maps well, and the last third (post 60s) maps poorly.

            The tree rign data is also mappable to other proxies too. In fact, some proxies can map really well to each other- like pollen from trees and pollen rings. The fact that 50 years of tree rign data diverges from temperature doesn't mean that there is no relationship. In fact, by using the other proxies (which have no divergence post 60's) to reconstruct temperature backwards for millenia, they can compare all the pre60s tree ring data to the reconstructed temperature, and presumably found that it still mapped well.

            So I'd argue that it is still a logical conculsion- but we would need to run some good stats models and partition out the variation ourselves before we could safely ocnlude whether thier answer was logical.

            Regardless of whether or not they got it right, your point that they could have honestly thought they got it right is waht is important here.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

            Colby,
            I agree the lack of explanation for hidign the data is ballocks. Although the is weak justification in that the the source data and citation was clear……it should definately have been more explicit.
            The thing is , its not as if these kinds of things are uncommon- all of us who have deconstructed papers in seminars find problems of roughly this magnitude in the vast majority of papers,
            My point is that the flaw, in and of istelf isn't a huge deal- most papers are flawed in some way.

            However, I do agree that the subsequent actions, like not being open about the truncation/rewieghting is a "BIG DEAL"…..MOnbiot hit the nail on the head when he said it could only be described as 'unscientific.'

            Bittersweet irony given that the truncation actually lowers climate sensitivity…..

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

        Have you read the actual article, Gaunilon? Front-to-back, not just the abstract?

        No? Well then I doubt your summary of its conclusions is complete and accurate.

  • Holly Stick
  • Dakota

    The eco-fascists are spinning faster and faster.

    "Hide the decline!"

    • Holly Stick

      The denialists are spinning. The realists are posting real information. Too bad you haven't the wit to understand it.

  • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

    I actually think the defenders and detractors of AGW theory here are not that far off.

    It seems that the defenders of AGW here, do not appear to be directly refuting the utter lack of scientific method, which is a prerequisite to any form of legitimacy (in any other paradigm that is),

    it is just that they profess the truth of AGW in spite of the use of the scientific method (which method appears to simply be unnecessary details).

    Which seems to agree to many critics concerns, that AGW is far more of an ideology (closely aligned to socialism [eco socialism if you will]) then the search for truth using the scientific method.

    From that standpoint, the complete lack of concern regarding these earth shattering revelations, makes perfect sense.

    • Holly Stick

      "the utter lack of scientific method" – You are ignorant.

      "they profess the truth of AGW in spite of the use of the scientific method (which method appears to simply be unnecessary details)." – You are incoherent.

      "these earth shattering revelations" – You are over-excited.

      • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

        Holly,

        do you still deny that the earth hasn't warmed in the last ten years,

        or are the released emails ranting about this fact not jiving with the computer models some nefarious right wing plot?

        I love how AGW theory goes:

        I predict the model will show X. If it does, my theory is correct.

        If it doesn't, my theory is still correct.

        If it shows the opposite of X, it is still correct, and you're a heretic for even being skeptical of the theory.

        • Holly Stick

          Oh yawn. Argue with these guys, smart boy.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_o…

          • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

            I think you may be one of the very few "yawning"

            "climategate" on google renders ten million hits.

            Ten million.

            The traffic at SDA alone is going through the roof.

            Not to mention my own blog.

      • mungman

        Ahh good, you seem to be wearing down. Now you're attacking the messenger, you looked better when you were appealing to authority (as ethically challenged as they currently appear)

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

          So just how many times should she respond in good faith to ignorant, incoherent attacks?

          "Ahh good, you seem to be wearing down"

          Well, I guess you could count that as an accomplishment, if all you want to do is be such a persistent jackass that intelligent people stop wasting their time with you.

  • Dee

    Cosh, I see you’re still using nutters to inflate your blog hit rate. So, what’s next for you? A posting on the 9/11 conspiracy? There’s lots of “truthers” out there with time on their hands.

    I sure do miss Kady.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/colbycosh colbycosh

      Comment numbers aren't some linear reflection on how many visits a blog entry is receiving. It's sort of like the relationship between tree rings and temperature.

      • Dee

        Well, Maclean's may want to weight your hit rate with a "nutter coefficient" which tracks how many back-and-forth sustained exchanges there are with people who use lots of capital letters, and claim to know the absolute truth about climate change, abortion, 9-11, black helicopters, etc. etc. The nutters are clearly your intended audience.

        • JimD

          Thanks for the ad hominem attacks. Without fail, when one resorts to them, it is a sure sign he cannot win the debate on facts alone.

  • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

    Oh boy, this is gonna leave a mark:

    "SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

    It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

    The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

    The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building."

    From the UK Times Online, just release.

    It's the new scientific model:

    Trust us, we're with the UN.

    • jarrid

      Destroying data. Deliberately destroying information they know people need to verify their work.

      This looks like something you'd see in the former Soviet Union which subordinated science to politics.

      Heads have to start rolling at the University of East Anglia. This is outrageous conduct.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      So you're of the mind that we should quintuple the funding we give to scientists so they don't have to throw out as much data any more?

      I agree!

      • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

        See my post here on this. The cost saving argument is rediculous:

        http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com/2009/11/data-d…

        That you find nothing wrong with the destruction of the most important data mankind has ever created, is not surprising in the circumstances.

        The non-ideologically blind, I assure you, is shocked indeed.

        • Holly Stick

          Wow, don't you guys ever fact check? The data has not been destroyed. But CRU did not own that data nor have the right to share that data; why keep it when they did not need it anymore, The original data still exists in the possession of the original owners.

          This has been explained repeatedly in the RealClimate posts about the CRU hack; so I'll leave it to you geniuses to find it. Maybe you'll learn something in the process, unlikely as that seems.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

            Holly: Some of the older data has been destroyed. Quite simply, the amount of raw data they get is huge, and considering how far back these emails go, remember what the price of storing data was? It wasn't so long ago that 640K on a computer was considered more than we'd ever need. Now? Good luck reading this website in that amount.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

          Who said I found anything wrong with it? I was agreeing that they should keep it. And I'm willing to pony up for it in my taxes.. are you?

          • peter

            Yeah, it's scary storing data, a terabyte server runs around 1,200 bucks. But don't worry I'm sure it's standard procedure to scare the world with "science" and then shred the data the "science" is based on.

            If you're buying this I want to know where you live because I think I may want to go back into sales

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

            Is it comfy living under that rock?

            Because out here in the real world, we know that the price of memory has dropped incredibly over the past 12 years or so. Hell, 12 years ago, most people didn't even have email and we were just figuring out that 640K probably wasn't going to be enough memory to last us til all time.

            Sure, it's cheap to store that much data now but funnily enough, they've been doing this science for a lot longer than that.

  • wilson

    US Congress investigates Climategate e-mails: this could be the beginning of the end for AGW
    (fingers crossed)

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/10…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

      Sen. Inhofe. Maybe his wife took him seriously. Once.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

    This is a great overall post….
    …..but, I'm pretty sure that M & M are arguing in good faith (their invitation for a guest editorial from realclimate on their own climate audit site is one example of their good fiath).

    Are they massively incompetent? Yes. Annoying? Yes. Arrogant? I dunno, I havne't met them personally, and everyone who participates he us. vs. them ends up sounding arrogant.

    However, just being stupid and annoying doesn't mean they are being delibrately dishonest.

    Personally, I think they are just unable to accuratley perceive data that doesn't agree with their own preconceived notions. Given that they are working way outside their own field….this isn't exactly novel, and we shouldn't assume they are being dishonest.

    Of course, if hackers provided us with their email correspondance on a platter, than we'd know better ;)

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

    You can also find the basic argumetn in the publically avialbel abstract- google scholar should deliver it in a jiffy

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

    Decent article summary, you got the majority right…..but you missed some stuff:

    "Shorter version: the tree ring data does not correlate well with temperature."
    The correlation with temperature doesn't just depend on the post 60s data- there is the instrumental record that stretches back to the 1700s (in Europe anyway), and many, many proxies that stretch back millenia. The tree ring data diverging from the temperature for forty years doesn't mean that it isn't an overall good predictor of temperature- it means it isn't a perfect one.

    Also, they have clues as to why the post 60s divergence exists. There is much more robust discussion in the 2002 Briffa paper, and the discussion fo the divergence is cited in many other papers….

  • tori

    EnterIn the emails, Phil wrote that he would rather delete his work that give it up in an FOI request. As a scentist, I would expect he would want to share his data with the world so it could be replicated by others and have its authenticity proven. Since it seems (from the comments contained within the harry read me file) phil et al have trouble even replicating within their own offices, I could see why the FOI hesitation.

    As for the intimidation with peer reviewed journals, here's a link on one of a few examples:
    http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=48… text right here

  • peter

    cont. Meanwhile the identical "correlation proof" of AGW is the basis for the greatest change in the abrogation of property rights and broadening of taxation policy in history. When logic is stood on its head this way and seemingly the same financial/power interests benefit in both circumstances, I cry foul on the pattern observed. Something about having your cake and eating it too comes to mind

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