Trash

by Andrew Coyne on Monday, November 30, 2009 5:06pm - 180 Comments

Gotta go with the pack on this one — this is just trash:

Let me just say this: living as we do, in a time when some in the political arena do not hesitate before throwing the most serious of allegations at our men and women in uniform, based on the most flimsy of evidence, remember that Canadians from coast to coast to coast are proud of you and stand behind you, and I am proud of you, and I stand beside you.

That’s your prime minister talking, folks, accusing members of Parliament who raise legitimate questions about Canada’s policy on the transfer of prisoners in Afghanistan of smearing “our men and women in uniform.” There is no sense in which this is true. There is no interpretation you can give it that draws it near to the truth. It is not even close.

There are many points of uncertainty in the detainee issue, and some members of the opposition may have leapt to some conclusions about it. But not about the soldiers on the ground. No one that I am aware of has made any criticism of the soldiers who handed over the prisoners to the Afghan security services — only of those who issued the orders to do so.

Coupled with the continuing refusal to release the Colvin memos and other relevant documents — or rather their selective release, to some but not others — it makes it very hard to give the government the benefit of the doubt in this affair. Their story has become more believable, but their every action suggests that they themselves don’t believe it.

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  • canuck23

    Funny how those who claim to "stand behind our troops" are the same ones who stand by and let the Government abuse the troops by using them as a shield to try and hide bad Government decisions.

    Questioning Government policy is not criticizing Cdn soldiers. Not even close. And proud Canadians should not allow our soldiers to be mis-used this way.

    • http://chuckercanuck.blogspot.com chuckercanuck

      My neighbour is a vet from WWII. He's a crusty bastard too.

      He says Michael Ignatieff is disgusting. This vet says that Michael Ignatieff wants to ship billions over to China in carbon credits so they can build up their military and take over Asia. This vet think the Liberals have been in the pockets of the Chinese military-indsutrial complex since Trudeau was in power.

      This vet thinks that when young soldiers in Afghanistan see how the Liberals only care about Afghanistan if they can make a war crime of the miltary's conduct, they get de-moralized. He thinks the Liberals are sending the message to the military that they are clueless gumps fighting for torture-lovers.

      Just passing on the comment of my neighbour the vet.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

        Fair enough, but nobody could ever argue that he didn't take full responsibility for it :)

  • James Halifax

    "Soldiers…in our streets…with guns"

    Nuff said?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

    Utter BS and you know it. It's you talking, so obvious.

    BS

  • http://chuckercanuck.blogspot.com chuckercanuck

    No. If it were me talking, I'd be talking about how badly this issue has hurt Canada's relationship with the International Red Cross.

  • Holly Stick

    "Our soldiers know which side they're on. So does the government, our diplomats and our bureaucracy. "

    No, it's not that simple; the vicious partisan jerk Harper and his government of thugs have been attacking and intimidating the diplomats and the bureaucracy for years. The Harper government has done serious harm to Canada and they will continue destroying our democracy and our international reputation as long as they are in office. Harper does not care about Canada; he's the worst prime minister we ever had.

    Canadians do not expect our soldiers to be mindless robots.

  • Holly Stick

    Shame on you. don't you care that Harper smeared our troops. No one has accused them but him.

  • http://vollman.blogspot.com Robert V

    NDP calling our troops terrorists: http://www.stephentaylor.ca/2006/08/the-world-acc…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Ricard_S_Argent Richard_S_Argent

    Actually, I think what you meant to say was that the Nanaimo-Cowichan NDP EDA made the argument that bringing democracy through violence is problematic because distinguishing the enemy from the innocent is difficult and "no matter how noble our intentions" our troops may kill innocents which in turn makes our soldiers easy targets for others.

    I'm sure you wouldn't want to purposefully mislead people right?

  • Usual Suspect

    "Vicious partisan jerk…'

    Whatever.

    I was actually defending the previous Liberal government responsible for the deficiencies in question, as if anyone's best is ever going to be good enough here. It matters not to me which government it is defending itself in such a no win scenario, my wagons circle the same way every time.

    I simply see no greater good in undoing everything our soldiers and diplomats (remember Glyn Berry?) have bled for so you have a chance to take down whatever Cabinet Minster or General in your way.

    Your petty partisanship does not trump my country.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Raging_Ranter Raging_Ranter

      Easy there Usual Suspect. She's just a kid.

  • Ben MacDonald

    I believe Harper's comments were about guy's like Dosanjh and Dewar, and the other Extreme Left MP's who came out blasting credible war heroes like Hillier and other Generals. It would seem to me that if you are attacking a General's credibility, as the Liberals did, than to say they don't support the soldiers is quite credible. The real question is about the complacency of the press to go along for the ride with the opposition on this shameful smear-fest, and then to try and smear the PM for his comments to the Troops. The media entirely ignored that the Liberals were using this as a fundraising tool. Where is your outrage on that one Coyne? This is a very light-weight post if i have ever see one and i assume you are just upset because Blatchford got the story and not any of the Press Gallery wannabes.

    • kcm

      "Nuff said?"

      I doubt it!!!

  • Holly Stick

    Do you imagine they are accomplishing anything in Afghanistan? I'm sorry, I think every Canadian soldier who died there, along with Glyn Berry, died for no good reason, just because Liberal and Conservative politicians wanted to suck up to the US.

  • Orson Bean

    If Trudeau were alive today, he would have found a cure for AIDS. And bad weather.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Raging_Ranter Raging_Ranter

      There was no bad weather when Trudeau was PM.

  • arctic_front

    Torture them all you want. Hand them over, walk away. It's not Canada's job to tell the government of Afghanistan what or how, to deal with their own citizens. Period.

    This whole issue, be it a Liberal or Conservative issue, it really just doesn't matter. Try this comparison: the Government of the USA starts telling Canada that we should execute murders. They 'insist' that to do otherwise is a violation of (pick one) convention or another. They (Americans) jump up and down and make an international incident about our 'lack' of resolve bla bla bla. Most Canadians would get quite huffy that the U.S. was telling us how to run our affairs. This Afghanistan torture issue is EXACTLY the same. Our soldiers catch them, give them to the LAWFULLY elected democaratic government of Afghanistan. End of our responsibility.

    his is an NON issue.

  • http://vollman.blogspot.com Robert V

    Seriously? Man, look at the reaction to all these comments (not just my benign link). Even with Andrew Coyne on staff, Maclean's readers are still lefties and down-vote anyone or anything that doesn't join in on the right-bashing?

  • arctic_front

    oh, I forfot to add: These Taliban fighters are NOT covered by the Geneva Convention. Nada, NOPE! They must wear a proper uniform to easily be distinguished from the civilian population for the Geneva Convention to protect them. They easily COULD have a uniform. They deliberately chose not to wear one because they prefer to hide behind women and children as human-shields. They are so brave. I hope all of them feel the pain of torture that they are so willing to inflict on the helpless citizens of Afghanistan. Shooting, stoning, beheading, burnning the faces with acid and hanging of people for playing music, apostasy, dissent, female education…..

  • Amateur Hour

    Look down. Note what you and he are standing in.

  • Jesse

    Here's my question:

    Are the GENERALS to be considered men and woman in uniform?
    Because if one does it is beyond clear that Mr. Harper's remarks are completely accurate.

    Gen. Rick Hillier was slammed as being morally flimsy by the opposition during the torture discussion.
    I believe that is a smear, especially when all the evidence is not in to be drawing such a conclusion.

    Harper's statement is indeed correct and his defence of the military laudable.

    Now, if you believe he's using this issue (which the opposition handed to him) as cover to delegitimize the torture conversaion then please say so. That's a perfectly reasonable criticism that should be discussed. Harper's remarks, however, are beyond dispute.

  • Amateur Hour

    Don't you think this is a bit more than a difference in style? They've been doing this since 2006: attacking Opposition MP's patriotism when they dare represent the questions of their constituents, comparing the asking questions about the Afghan mission in Ottawa with giving aid and comfort to terrorists, throwing public servants under a bus when a Minister states a blatant falsehood about a file, etc.

    The Reform Party Boys Gone Wild have driven many of those in the middle (Blue Libs, Red Tories) out of the voting game altogether, handing the nation's agenda to the Reformers, Bloc and NDP. Those parties whose support — and level of maturity — are in the teens drive the agenda today.

  • Holly Stick

    Harper and MacKay have smeared our troops.

    Best sentence by a journalist: "…When that tactic failed to score a hit, MacKay wrapped himself in the flag, curled up in the fetal position and pleaded for everyone to "stop attacking his soldiers."… " by Scott Taylor, http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1155381.html

    Best blogger headline: Harper uses our troops as a human shield.
    http://bcinto.blogspot.com/2009/11/harper-uses-ou…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Raging_Ranter Raging_Ranter

    Depends…

  • Kat

    Just a minute now, I'm not saying the soldiers are responsible for doing anything other than representing Canada in the best possible light. I'm saying that calling our soldiers to testify in front of the parliamentary committee on the word of one diplomat and then treating them like their word is questionable is very disappointing.

    I also don't think we should accuse Harper of hiding behind the soldiers because he praised their work.

    Serious allegations have been flung at our soldiers, in the political arena, based on the most flimsy of evidence. True or False?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

    False, and by quite a wide margin. QUESTIONS have been asked of our top military brass–hardly "our soldiers", based on sworn testimony of a (previously, at least) well respected career diplomat. Why is our diplomat not considered to be as above reproach as you would have our generals? I am asking this of you, Kat.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SamDavies SamDavies

    Good for you Andrew. The PM's actions here were total BS.
    Good for you and your convictions to take a stance on this.
    I may not agree with you often, but I'd be lying if you didn't get me to think and reconsider several things.

    To all the sheep out here – for shame!
    Are your heads so far up up each others ars*s that you can't fathom some of the dirty things Harper does.
    I'm not so dramatic, where I see him as the devil.
    But you should be realistic, and not see him as an angel.
    It's easy to yell at the politicians that you hate. It takes courage to do the same to the ones that you like.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/hollinm hollinm

    hollinm continued…..

    While you may not agree and of course the opposition parties do not agree but the fact remains you cannot discredit the military leadership questioning their testimony and say you support the troops.

    Once again if there was no credible evidence of torture why would there be a discussion between the military brass and the government on the subject.

    Think man, think. What Harper is saying is true. The opposition have jumped on the bandwagon and endorsed what Colvin said without investigating his allocations. That leaves the military and the government in a position where they must refute the allegations.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

    Well, presumably people like Kat don't grasp the implications.

  • Ken S from Ramara

    If Mr. Trudeau were PM at this time, there would be no need for an inquiry. Mr. Trudeau would just take responsibility by saying, “Yes we F/up by allowing our detainees to be possibily subjected to torture, by the Afghanis. The initial plan was flawed. When we heard rumours of torture, we investigated and made changes to the flawed plan. These are the changes and here is our objective evidence confirming no more detainees are being harmed.”

    I’d never ever vote for Stephen Harper, but I could respect the man if he could just once admit his is not perfect and take responsibility for the consequences, from events occurring under his watch! Unfortunately this PM never will. He will always find a scapegoat or patsy, to take the blame. He’ll use whatever he has it his means to create plausible deniability. This is Harper’s biggest flaw, his inability to admit his accountibility to bad outcomes.

  • Orson Bean

    Wow, that's quite a gift you have, being able to know what dead politicians would have done had they been facing today's issues. But that's right, I forgot — Trudeau was an unvarnished saint, wasn't he? And God knows, he was never, ever accused of trumping human rights via heavy-handed military action . . .

  • Jon Pertwee

    thanks for being an apologist Jesse. Your service in the time of futility will not go unnoticed by your overlords.

  • JHolland

    ICC (International Criminal Court) is looking at this situation, too. If they do decide to prosecute, who will they go after: the politicians, the bureaucrats, or the soldiers who did the actual handing-over? Some people need their heads examined when they fail to see the wide-ranging repercussions of the clash between civilization and non-civilization.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Raging_Ranter Raging_Ranter

    That's right, and everyone currently throwing around the accusation of "war crimes" should consider that.

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