The shrimp and the damage done

Andrew Coyne chimes in on this whole “climate change” mess

by Andrew Coyne on Friday, December 11, 2009 11:10am - 88 Comments

As the 15th United Nations Climate Change Conference gets under way in Copenhagen, the pages of what one might call the skeptical press are filled with scandalized accounts of the many ways the assembled delegates will be—get this—wasting carbon.

A report in the Sunday Telegraph reckons the total number of limousines commissioned for the event “has already broken the 1,200 barrier,” while as many as 140 private jets are said to be flying VIPs in and out of the city. An editorial in the National Post laments that delegates will be treating themselves “to jumbo Indian Ocean shrimp, Norwegian salmon and fruits and vegetables from South America, Africa and Southern Europe, all flown in daily to ensure maximum freshness.” The columnist George Will predicts the delegates’ collective carbon footprint, estimated at 41,000 tonnes of CO2, “will be the only impressive consequence” of the gathering.

You see a lot of this kind of thing. “That Al Gore, preaching restraint on the rest of us, but have you seen the size of his house?” It’s supposed to highlight the hypocrisy of global warming activists. But all it really does is tacitly endorse the doomsters’ most alarmist assumptions. The planet will not be consigned to a warming hell because Al Gore lives in a big house, or because the UN delegates eat too much Norwegian salmon. You can say it’s hypocritical, but only if you accept that stopping global warming requires us to abstain from imported foods, or large houses, or flying. It doesn’t.

In truth, both sides of the global warming debate, the skeptics as much as the activists, share a common interest in exaggerating the stakes: either global warming will destroy the earth, or the effort to prevent it will destroy the economy. But that is not what the evidence indicates, on either side.

The most comprehensive attempt to date to estimate the costs to the world economy, both of global warming and of the measures needed to prevent it, is the Stern Review, prepared by the economist Sir Nicholas Stern for the British government in 2006. On Stern’s reckoning, a warming of up to three degrees Celsius over the next few decades—Copenhagen aims to hold it to two degrees—would cost between zero and three per cent of GDP annually.

Only in more severe warming scenarios, about five degrees or more, does the projected cost rise above five per cent of GDP per year. That’s not five per cent out of today’s economy, or tomorrow’s, mind you. That’s five per cent over the next century. A century from now, that is, annual output would be five per cent less due to the effects of global warming than it would otherwise be.

Bear in mind, among economists who study climate change, these are generally regarded as overestimates. The economist Richard Tol, for example, whose work Stern cites, puts the long-run costs of global warming at closer to two per cent of GDP. “A deep recession,” he writes, “wreaks as much havoc in a year as climate change would do in a century.”

On the costs of preventing climate change, however, the two economists are agreed. Provided countries adopt the most efficient, market-oriented means of reducing carbon emissions—whether via carbon taxes or so-called cap and trade schemes—the costs of holding global warming to two degrees are in the range of one per cent of GDP.

That isn’t to say it will be easy: we’re talking reductions in carbon emissions by 2020 on the order of 25 to 40 per cent. But neither will it require adopting the sort of hair-shirt lifestyle that either the activists or their critics imply. It might mean taking fewer flights. It does not mean giving up flying altogether. That is, it will require adjustments at the margin: do I really need to eat the next piece of Norwegian salmon, or could I do without?

Which is where “pricing carbon” comes in. As long as fighting global warming remains a matter of Gore-style consciousness-raising and cheery advice columns on how to “Go Green,” it hasn’t a prayer. Only when it becomes a part of every economic decision, every day—only, that is, when people stop thinking about it—will we be on the way to meeting our targets.

If that sounds vaguely totalitarian, it is exactly what happens every day with regard to the more fundamental economic problem of scarcity. Rather than calculate our “cotton footprint,” or perform complex “copper audits” on our house, we just let prices do the job. That’s what prices do: they tell us where and when we should economize our consumption, without our having to think about it, or lecture others to follow our example.

What we are facing, then, is less a crisis than a problem. Consider the matter in insurance terms. If you thought there was a 20 per cent chance of global warming costing five per cent of GDP, or a 50 per cent chance of it costing two per cent, then you should be willing to pay up to one per cent of GDP to avoid incurring those costs.

I don’t want to minimize the costs either way. You can, as they say, drown in a pool that is on average a foot deep; global averages can likewise conceal some quite dire results for particular regions or industries. But we’re a few horsemen short of an apocalypse—on either side.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    It’s supposed to highlight the hypocrisy of global warming activists. But all it really does is tacitly endorse the doomsters’ most alarmist assumptions.

    Nope. It MOCKS the doomsters' most alarmist assumptions.

    Glenn "Instapundit" Reynolds has a great line along the lines of: I'll start believing it's a crisis when those who keep telling me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

      It MOCKS the doomsters' most alarmist assumptions.

      In other words, it's basically the equivalent of asking a chickenhawk why they haven't signed up to go fight the Islamic menace they're so alarmed about?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

        Nope. We have a military for that one, and the country has established that this is a sufficient priority to order our soldiers into battle, and our intelligence & security services are pretty busy with it, too.

        There are probably other examples of equivalent hypocrisy, however. Feel free to keep trying.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/robert_mccl6309 Robert McClelland

          The military is made up of citizens therefore it is the same.

          • Steve M

            I hear this chickenhawk hypocrite argument a lot.

            So if I see a building on fire or a crime going down, and I call in the pros (the fire or police department) to come take care of it, then am I a hypocrite since I've never applied to either the fire department or the police force?

          • Logician

            When it a situation like that, ask yourself, "What would Mark Steyn do?" Or more simply, "What would Mark Steyn claim he would have done?"

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

            Nope. Try again. Hypocrisy is so out there. You don't need to make stuff up.

  • Meme Mine

    The group psychosis of Climate Change was a Freudian "denial of death" transference where humans en-mass had elevated themselves to the God-like status of destroyers of entire plants, in this case planet Earth. By making themselves and all of nature itself seemingly mortal. In other words: "If we are all ultimately dying, I'm taken everyone and everything with me.

  • Mulletaur

    A thoughtful column which debunks the extremism of the opposing camps. I agree that carbon pricing is the way to go, and wish that the carbon tax was not discredited by the weak leadership of Dion. I am still not personally convinced that global warming is something humans are responsible for, nor that we could or should do something about it. Anybody who would like to read a contrary view to the received wisdom on global warming should pick up the book Heaven and Earth: Global Warming – the Missing Science by Ian Plimer. It seems very unlikely that the doomsday scenarios promoted by unhinged extremists and psuedo-scientists like David Suzuki could possibly occur given the geological history of the Earth. Global warming is more likely to be caused by tectonic activity and the Sun than the burning of fossil fuels. I am totally in favour of clean carbon – burning coal puts mercury into the atmosphere – but economic development and capital accumulation is pretty well impossible without burning carbon, and I don't see why we should give up our prosperity for something which the Earth is able to handle and has handled many times over its geological history.

    I see that the European Union agreed today to a massive transfer of resources from rich to poor countries to help them develop low carbon economies and deal with the effects of global warming. I think that those who promote the idea that global warming is going to be a disaster are motivated by ideological considerations which have nothing to do with climate change and its effects, and everything to do with political economy, particularly the political economy of development.

    • Anon Liberal

      Agreed. A throughly intelligent column. Would that more of the climate change debate was like this.

      • DPT

        agree, as far as it goes. It does not however (and perhaps it doesn't need to for the purposes of this column), cover the recent and growing revelations from CRU. Both the emails and the computer code that was released have not been satisfactorily addressed by the AGW proponents. There are serious questions about the behaviour and motives that undermine the AGW position. Contrary to what they are saying this is not merely about mistaken context.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

      When you say 'earth is able to handle' the cahgnes in temperature…..you're referring to the fact that some species survive? That is kind of a strange definition of 'handle'….I mean, if I was responsible for 12 different kinds of pets….and 8 of them died off…would you say I 'handled' the problem.
      Regardless of causation of global warming, I think it is important to recognize that whenever climate shifts large amounts over short times- large species extinctions, and overall biomass dies off.
      In terms of econ develop being dependant upon carbon burning- Sweden is a good example of how these two things can be de-linked.
      I wish more environmentalists were supporters of nuclear power.

      • Mulletaur

        "I wish more environmentalists were supporters of nuclear power."

        At least one thing we totally agree on. Climate change has always meant changes in the species which exist on Earth. With some climate changes, species die, with others, there is an explosion of species. It all depends on your time frame.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

          Yeah, temporal scale is important.
          In the short term, massive species die off is always occurs in conjunction with quick climate change. In the long term, when the climate change is paired with either an actual chagne in the composition of the atmosphere (e.g. oxygen creation) or biology gets a break (e.g. cambrain explosion), there is an explosion of spp. However, there have been mass extinctions of whole taxa that aren't followed by speciation.

          Of course….the time frames referred to above are geological, and it is worth noting that in our human context, (with a time horizon for decision making that rarely even considers centuries), the time needed for speciation (your 'explosion of species) is millenia. Climate change for our grandchildren, their grandchildren, their descendants in 2200…..will undoubtably result in much, much less species, expecially given the increasing pressures of habitat loss/degradation/over-exploitation and invasive species.

          Takehome message- yes, climate change does sometimes, eventually, produce a more diverse group of taxonomy…..but only after many millenia, so it isn't relevant to decision making about the next 500 years.

  • SpencCanada

    The whole thing is a crock anyway. This is socialism's last gasp. After Copenhagen, when the scientific truth finally emerges western populations will see social liberalism for the lie that it has always been and will drive it out of political existence. Only a few of you Libtards will be left by the end of the next election. Rant all you want, you know this will be your fate!

    • kcm

      You can suck your thumb again now!

  • peter

    What if, as common sense and the facts in the climate record indicate, that the whole thing is nothing but a GIANT scam. Since all the scientists would agree that extreme climate variability and changes in the atmosphere are the norm for our planet, how is today different than the past when humans were too insignificant to make a difference (when both temperature and CO2 levels were higher?

    I would be prepared to bet good money that the drop in economic opportunity most of the world is about to face needs someone or thing to blame it on. God forbid it should be the criminals in the investment banking/insurance industry and business media who have cheer-led our economies into oblivion as they lined their pockets and collected multimillion dollar bonuses or were offered "sweet deals" for going with the program.

    We are just supposed to roll over and shut up and listen to apologists for stupidity and criminality, on a scale never before seen in human history,..and pay?? For their greed and sleaze?? I've been reading (and mostly respected) your work for a long time Mr. Coyne, whose brass are you polishing here.

  • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

    The dike has broken and the flood of evidence data manipulation (and the words of silenced scientists who long ago were telling us what the leaked evidence is showing)

    is overwhelming.

    Check out the links at Kate (SDA) latest.

    Stunning.

    Sorry Mr. Coyne, but you can't straddle the middle ground between right and wrong.

    • kcm

      SDA… a light unto all mankind.

      • wilson

        Kate most definitely shone a bright light into a dark cave.
        The 'science' needs to be done over from scratch,
        by independents like Canadians Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick.
        Macleans has a post up:
        http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/13/centre-of-the-…

        For those of us who have not followed closely,
        it appears that the contributors to the science of GW drew a conclusion and then jigged the 'science' to back them up, and used their significant clout to stop any analysis of their work.
        That is just not acceptable by any stretch of the imagination.

        A do-over is required, or the sceptics win, big time.

        If the 'hockey stick' theory is wrong…..it's all wrong, start over and do the science right.
        Give the scientific community unfettered access to the data,
        and present the conclusion in 2012.
        Until then, prepare for GW to be proved,
        the worse (flooding of island countries) and the best (Arctic shipping, increased crop production)
        BUT, leave the global economies out, until the science is actually settled.

  • Seldom Guest

    That may be a good analogy, but you also need to add that your doctor is also a fat, lazy, chain smoking slob with a drinking problem, and he wants to put you on a diet, confiscate your smokes and drink your best scotch. In fact, he insists on it.

    • wilson

      It's not a good analogy when there is a limited life expectancy of the patient to start with.
      The patient lives 90 or 60 years, but the patient dies regardless.
      Perhaps the patient dies in a car accident, and not from smoking.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

    I think using Stern while claiming others are extreme is disengenious, at best. The Stern Review was more of a political manifesto, a call to arms, than serious economic paper.

    "we’re talking reductions in carbon emissions by 2020 on the order of 25 to 40 per cent."

    How do we reduce our emissions by 25-40% without many people suffering. I have no doubt Macleans writers won't have a problem but how about someone who makes average salary or just below the average and all of a sudden that person has to pay $4 per litre for gas. Of course this is hair shirt territory.

    This story is not getting much attention yet but it certainly did not help Copenhagen talks. I am in favour of markets over government everytime time but establishing cap/trade market does not necessarily mean everything will be fine.

    "Carbon trading fraudsters may have accounted for up to 90pc of all market activity in some European countries, with criminals pocketing an estimated €5bn (£4.5bn) mainly in Britain, France, Spain, Denmark and Holland, according to Europol, the European law enforcement agency."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-clima…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

      Well, you could have a social welfare system, an education system, good incentives for R&D…..and not have any problems with people suffering.
      Have you eveer heard any plan for carbon pricing where prices go up by ~400% 'all of a sudden'????
      No???? You're just making these numbers up to make your own hyperbolic point,and illustrate very nicely how wehn reasonable people like Andrew talk about adjustments at the margin…..you spin that into instant 400% increases on a service which is short-term inelastic?
      Its almsot too bad you're not doing this on purpose, you're such an effective illustration of the problem.
      Take a look at Sweden.

      • wilson

        ''Well, you could have a social welfare system, an education system, good incentives for R&D…..and not have any problems with people suffering.''

        Canada already has the above.

        Taxing carbon will make the poor poorer and the rich richer, as it has done in the countries that went gungho on Kyoto while reducing ghgs by killing off jobs.

        Read an article that said this current recession has reduced ghgs in the US enough that they are 1/2 way to meeting their promised reductions for 2020 already.
        So what you are asking for is this recession times 2.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Twiens Twiens

    I don't claim to be an expert or even all that knowledgeable in regards to climate change. I do know that I have seen extreme changes in weather here in Canada in the past fifty years. Many things have contributed to that including mass migration from country living to urban life. Canada's population in 1950 was 13,712,000 people but by 2008 that had grown to 33,506,000, almost but not quite tripled. That's a lot of infrastructure, heating, water use and all other things required to support that many people. Does that equate to a climate crisis, I have no idea but I do know we have to take some personal responsibility for the environment.

    If you are really concerned about the climate then look at your own behaviour. Canada is one of the most wasteful countries in the world. So start with some personal responsibility which, hopefully, will start to develop some mind sets that will filter out to the corporate world. After all, energy is about money and profits. Who is going to walk away from that?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

      Twiens,
      Speaking as someone with some very, very basic knowledge of microclimates and weather systems…..urbanization probably has little effect on weather systems.
      'Heat' isn't very significant either.
      Water use change is mostly driven by agriculture- we use more irrigation. Water diversion projects probably have some effects on some microclimates- but the actual physical infrastructure we build doesn't usually have imporant regional effects.
      You need to make really big changes, like the Soviets did with the Aral sea, before the weather actually starts changing form direct impacts of infrastructure.
      *****Of course, sulfates from industrial areas do make regional changes in micoclimate- we all know of smog- maybe that is what you're driving at with 'weather' chagnes?

      Take home message- We do lots of stuff that change our own microclimate, really, realy small scale weather- but you've got to make really big changes (like the aral sea) to affect 'synoptic' level weather, i.e. the actual highs/lows cold fronts/warm fronts that are generally classified as weather.

      Of course,, the weather is affected indirectly by infrastructure population because of increased energy use…..through both GHGs and sulfates.

      In terms of direct impacts of ppulation growth, we've basically removed/fragmented/degraded all the habitat for the majority of species endeangered in Canada, since both the endeangered species and us like the good real estate (high productive/south).

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Twiens Twiens

        Thanks for the info and insight. Given the time I know I could research this more but as I said, given the time. I work primarily with ESL families with special needs children so spend the bulk of my time keeping current with treatment modalities as well as legislation and public policy that has an impact on their children (-/+). One of the things I insist on with all of my families is developing more self responsibility into their thinking. Something most of them are very good at, in part because of the type of regimes they endured in their own countries. I don't see this same of personal responsibility Canadian clients. My real point in my post what more about creating an environment in Canada where we do more self responsibility will have a trickle up effect so our politicians (and I use the term loosely) will also act responsibility. Of course this will not happen over night but probably more like ten years from now. My initial post was an introduction to my second post. I support the Copenhague attempts but also realize it probably won't be very successful due, I believe, because of the lack of desire of both Canada and the States. But I do appreciate your insight.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

          Twiens,
          I hear you on keeping up the special needs children field- my Mom's is a Learning Resource Teacher- and it is amazing the volume of literature she reads to keep up with her job.

          My generation (20-30 yr olds) are pissed off as all hell about the current political climate. This runs across the political spectrum too- there are a few right wingers who scoff at some elements of environmentalism (but not all elements0…and most youthful right wingers I know act properly ashamed of the current gov't.

          I'm just hoping they start voting more!

          In terms of Copenhagen, yeah, U.S. Canada are a drag- but the E.U.'s poor record of negotiationg trade agreements with the South but refusing to give up inequitable market subsidies (like the ridonculous ag subsidies) have really soured the trust at the wrold negotiating table.

          The leaked alternate proposal that gives developed countries a much higher per capita GHG emission in 2050 (I think its a Danish/U.K./U.S. text) has really made good faith negotians even more unlikely.

          Until the developed world backs down from the assumption that they are somehow entitled to keep high emissions (but developing countries have to cap their own emissions much loer), meaningful progress is unlikely. Its a little unfair to place the blame just on Canada/U.S. in this respect- there are polenty of other E.U. countries (Britain!) which aren't yet ready to by into really deep cuts.

          In other words, until the rest of the world has an attitude like Sweden's…..the developing countries are unlikely to sign up to a long term deal which is both ineffective (deep cuts like Sweden are doing isn't really on the table at this point) and totally unfair to developing countries.

          Some of the most astute observers (Micheal M'gonigle and James Hansen) have pointed out that catastrophic failure at Copenhagen is probably a better outcome than moving towards a crappy agreement.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Twiens Twiens

    We have become a nation that has become so dependant on "regulations and rules" that the whole concept of personal responsibility has become lost. Seat belt legislation, helmut legislation, cell phone legislation and it goes on. I don't believe you need to be a rocket scientist to know that seat belts save lifes, that helmuts are a safety function when riding a motorcycle or bike or that your an idiot if you talk on your cell phone while driving. But it appears the average citizen can't figure that out themselves. Then we whine because we have to pay so many taxes.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

    I will not endorse any form of carbon pricing until I see proper scientific evidence that AGW exists. The so-called evidence on display is flawed. I will not be goaded into supporting a position because they make a lot of noise. Since that is the case, any form of carbon pricing is nothing more than a tax grab. We might as well be taxing oxygen.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703…
    http://www.copenhagenclimatechallenge.org/

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

      <,open sarcasm>
      s_c_f…..the WSJ has SUCH a good record of accurately reflecting climate science. Their previous reporting has always been so reliable and unbiased- I'm really glad that they're your news media which you rely on
      <close sarcasm>
      (rolls eyes)

  • 4Liberty

    Nice one Andrew but you ignore which regions would bear the massive cost of what 3% of global GDP represents.

    Never thought I'd see the day a conservative arguing in favour of making the productive capability of the planet worse based on such flimsy and probably manufactured evidence. Inevitably it would be the most vulnerable who suffer the burden. Just as they have since the Reds-turned-green managed to get a defacto ban on DDT and in doing so condemned to death from malaria of millions of African children.

    • kcm

      DDT was just a harmless product, right?

      • 4Liberty

        Drinking too much carrot juice is not harmless either.

      • peter

        Tell the millions of children who get malaria as they sleep,from mosquitos which could easily be eliminated by careful application of small amounts of DDT in their sleeping rooms, that the stuff is a no no. This black and white stupidity that something is 100% of taboo if not 100% safe is a huge part of the problem. See "The brave new world of zero risk" for further information. Everything is a poison at a certain dose, including pure water.

        The whole "rule driven regime" we are entering as a society is a direct result of this thinking. Our cultural tradition of law is based on principles, not rules. That is the European way…look at the that corrupt and stinking hulk and the whole EU totalitarian state being erected…IS THAT WHAT WE WANT?

  • Bill Simpson

    I don't see how this moves the discussion along at all. Right now, the debate is between those who are 100% certain about AGW, and those who are not. One side proposes radical action, or at the least, significant taxes on energy use, and the other side proposes – no action!

    Proposing "no action" does not preclude action in the future if science evolves and the AGW thesis is validated. But enacting what AGW supporters demand now does apply a significant cost that will not be recovered.

    So where is the compromise? If a patient is diagnosed with cancer on questionable data, you don't cut them up just in case – you go and review the data and wait for more evidence either way.

    This is the same kind of flawed logic that you have lambasted in other safety-first scenarios.

    • Mulletaur

      It moves the discussion along because, as Coyne points out, those at both extremes are wrong, so both radical action and doing nothing are wrong. The only way to find the appropriate level of response is through a market based solution. Carbon pricing is the best way to do this.

      • peter

        Holy Cow Mulletaur, I have never considered you a Fabian, has someone highjacked your account? Markets are supposed to exist to trade real, or future, items. They shouldn't be perverted by trading in bogus goods. If you look at our current finacial, disaster slowly unfolding before our eyes, you can easily fix the blame on bozos trading bogus goods…CDSs, derivatives, phantom shares, naked shorting etc .

        It is these exact same guys setting up the carbon exchanges. After they have finacially raped the world once, you're prepared to let them have seconds?

        • Mulletaur

          Coyne is right to the extent that he says "That’s what prices do: they tell us where and when we should economize our consumption, without our having to think about it, or lecture others to follow our example." He may well mean that we need some sort of carbon emission based derivative, but I doubt it. He can correct me if I'm wrong. I think that anything which prices the negative externality of carbon pollution into its use is going to be acceptable to a neo-classical economist like Coyne. I agree. A carbon tax is the best way to do this. The only policy question which remains is what to do with the revenues. I think that Dion had it right – redistribute them to the least well off. Others may disagree, but I welcome the debate.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

          Peter,
          Yeah, undoubtably market systems get screwed up. However, the only other method, state control, certinaly doesn't have a good track record either- seen the Aral sea lately?

          We need aspects of both- I'm rather disappointed people still bring this up.

          • peter

            Good grief, the Aral Sea was drained by the SOVIET UNION, rather the opposite of a market system I'd say. BTW, many former USSR types are the most vocal critics of the UN/EU because they lived through that plan once already and it didn't turn out all that well. (Former E. German technocrat Merkel notwithstanding))

            The whole cap and trade and or sequestration thing reminds me of the old USDA PIK (payment in kind) plan where agribusiness mostly (and some farmers) are paid NOT to grow crops (by tax payer dollars) to create higher prices and artificial shortages for "market support". Thus taxpayers get screwed twice, higher prices at the shop and higher taxes to pay for not growing the goods..

            Imagine how this will work out for a nuclear company producing say 500 megawatts. Talk about a gold mine, their carbon credits will be HUGE, probably more profitable than their business of generating electricity. Do you think their by-product is more or less safe than CO2? How do you think it will affect your power bill? How will that affect those at the lower end of the income scale's disposable income?

            All this on something as transparently phoney as AGW?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

            Peter,
            I brought up the Aral sea as an example of how bad total state control can be for the environment- I thought you were arguing that the market shouldn't be used for pricing- your arguments about speculation apply to the market in general.
            I agree that trade and cap has potential for massive ineffieciences- I'd much rather go with carbon taxes.

            I'd argue that nuclear power is much safer than hydrocarbon power. The damage to human wellfare & biological system from hydrocarbon burning is very likely within the next 10 to 300 years.

            The potential damage done by nuclear? Not much chance of enough nuclear accidents to reach anything like the massive system changes that GHGs produce. The whole worry about 'nuclear waste for millenia' is kind of silly—–that nuclear waste still has lots of energy in it, and every generation of nuclear gets better at recycling fuel. At some point, the 'dangerous' 'waste' fuel will simply be reprocessed, and more energy extracted.

            Will it be expensive? Dman right it will be. Pretty much every energy option with the exception of coal will have high prices in the medium term. If we ever get some politicians with guts, and a populace smart enough to hang onto them, we'll accept this fact- energy is expensive.

            The people at the lower end of the income scale…..have all sorts of reasons why their disposable income is small. They should still be facing energy prices that are reflective of actual energy costs. If energy costs go up so that they are forced to make choices which are unhealthy for them….society should see that there income becomes higher, either through lower income tax rates or reverse income tax.

            I'd say the same thing for any other raise in price of good/service. The fact that people with very low incomes need to make hard choices when prices raise is a piss-poor reason ofr not letting markets set accurate prices…..but a great reason for ensuring that those with low incomes need to have their purchasing power increased.

            I'm going to ignore your comment on AGW being 'transpartently phony.'

          • peter

            Pretty much like "The Church" ignored the science behind celestial dynamics? I think your comment encapsulates all that is wrong with AGW. That the climate is changing is not in dispute. WHY it is changing is. The AGW crowd may be sincere, but they are wrong. Their own data shows they are wrong by clearly demonstrating that the current pattern has a long cyclic history that predates human caused effects. All the rest is very good PR. I call it the pattern of information. I spent ten years fighting the same BS on the side of natural medicine for treating chronic disease. At one time I blamed pharma (and they easy to make out as villains), but after further study realized that pharma was just an extension of Wall St. and the real dynamic was future costs and all the "recently discovered demographic data" that we have way too many soon to be withdrawing and not near enough paying in.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

            Peter,
            Yes, the climate history shows that their are lots of cycil patterns.
            In fact, if you take a look at those patterns, you'd see that the centureies trend would be going downwards if we were following the pattern.
            It is quite interesting that people who are 100% certina global warming is a crock cite these patterns of natural variability- without realizing that the pattern should be decreasing right now. we ought to be coming out of the interglacial warm period (past ~10,000 years) and back twoards the much longer cool periods (~100,000 years).
            Is it possible that the warming over the last few centuries has been a result of non-anthropgenic effects? Certainly, and I can probably name and explain the mechanisms of non-anthropgenic climate forcings as well as you can…..
            ….but what is indisputable is that there is definately some warming that occurs when the IR radiation bounced back from the earth is trapped by CO2.

            I just to ignore your view that AGW is impossible…..because the laws of atmospheric chemistry/physics prove you wrong, and Arrrhenius proved it experimentally centuries ago. Why would I waste my time explaining something so elementary to our understanding of climate to you, when you appear to be so certain that AGW is a hoax?

            To sum, yes, other forcings exist- but just because they do….doesn't mean AGW doesn't exist.

            By the way, it is interesting you mention the power of Wall street propaganda……you are aware that the AGW skeptic talking points come almost exclusively from the big players in the energy business funding right? Obvoiusly…..that doesn't necessarily make it wrong, as all information sources have bias…..

            …but their are leaked documents from these lobby groups revealing that the energy companies, and the scientists/propagandists putting out the message acknowledge that AGW is real (see George Monbiot's recent article, or refer to any of the handful of books investigating the climate denial industry)…..

            …so who is being fooled by wall street? Me, who is relying on physical principles known to science for centuries…..or you…who is relying on propaganda created by companies who themsleves acknowlege AGW?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

      I am not at all certain you have the correct analogy…. perhaps a better one would be if you went to the doctor (and the doctor said)

      Bill: you are a fat, lazy, chain smoking slob with a drinking problem… I am not certain about the detailed modeling of your future health but I am concerned about your health.

      So you could either wait til the rapidly emerging science of genomics can tell whether you are succeptible to liver disease, stroke or lung cancer, or improve your chances by changing your lifestyle.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Mike514 Mike514

        Why are there only 2 options in your scenario? Either take the first doctor's word for it, or wait?

        Bill could ask for a second opinion. If the second doctor comes to the same conclusions as the first, then there's likely a problem with his health.

        In the end, I think Bill's only asking that the data be reviewed (the "second opinion") and validated.

      • wilson

        Not even close to a good comparision,
        because your patient is doomed to die, as we all will die. Planet earth is not.

    • André

      You forget to compare the costs of no-action compared to the costs of action. It goes even further than the consequences of AGW as Coyne suggested. Could you imagine running a health care system when all of the plastic supplies and pharmaceutical products are unaffordable because the are petroleum based and there are simply no more harvestable oil fields available?

      In a way you're right. Coyne's article is not meant to push the discussion further but rather to bring it to a middle. Action is needed, but lets not go crazy. Remove the barriers to research. Stop the lobbying and coddling of big oil. Put a price on the most likely culprit(carbon) and then let the markets decide. Slowly, but naturally, society will change its ways.

      • wilson

        The cost of inaction: less people die from cold exposure, more and larger crops grown to feed a planet,
        less energy used in cold countries such as Canada.
        So adaptaion is the best response, as technology cleans up the eneregy sources.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

      Bill,
      This is ballocks.
      The IPCC WG1 report is 95% certain- not 100%.
      The possible choices for what we can do about it which are detailed in WG 2 and 3 present an enoromous amount of ranges of action, everything from business as usual to deep cuts. (Have you ever even read the different emission scenarios- you don't sound like you have).
      The current negotiations in Coopenhagen will contain the same wide range of how different states want to respond.
      If you had bothered to absorb anything From Andrew's column, you would have realized that people like you- who scream their heads off assuming that the two sides are really far awy- are basically a giant waste of our time.

    • kcm

      "One side proposes radical action, or at the least, significant taxes on energy use, and the other side proposes – no action!"

      Are the majority of those on the no side really proposing a wait and see attitude? I suspect that once the taps are turned of from CC research we may never see them turned on again. In other words i don't except your one side wants costly action and the other no action thesis…no action will inevitably become no action ever!…if i had some confidence in the good intentions of many on the denial side i'd probably more firmly in the skeptical camp.
      I'm beginning to see this whole issue as a rather sordid playing out of the liberals vs Conservative idealogical warfare that seems to be playing out everywhere – certainly in N. America – right now.

  • kcm

    "In truth, both sides of the global warming debate, the skeptics as much as the activists, share a common interest in exaggerating the stakes: either global warming will destroy the earth, or the effort to prevent it will destroy the economy. But that is not what the evidence indicates, on either side."

    Andrew as ever comes roaring up the middle…can't blame him at all, after all it's where most of the sane people live.
    It's a great pity that global warming advocates didn't take this sort of saavy approach themselves. If it had been sold a little more as a win win, since reducing polution generally and using energy efficiently are pretty well motherhood issues. Couching the issue in apocalyptic terms may be sexy, but it also spreads despondency, since many will just tune out as it appears to be out of their hands anyway.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

      kcm,
      Yeah, I think you've touched a raw nerve there with people who are really unsure how to present it.
      I'm an enviro student, and have spent many, many hours discussing whether or not to take the 'look how easy to fix it is' approach vs. 'There is a significant risk that massive drawbacks will occur if we don't reduce emssions'
      Realisticaly, good science advice needs to include both- the fact htat there are lots fo technologoies that aren't widely adopted that can easily lead to reduced emission…..but any honest presentation of the science also must include the ones with higher climate senesitivy.
      By the way, one interesting thing I find when I talk with actual real field scientists (physical geographers and biologists)…..they usually point out that the sensitivity currently being discussed (and the one being negotiated) is looked upon as actually too low. In other words, data which became available after the 2007 fourth assessment WG1 report…….actually points the way to a higher probability for apocalypse.
      If people can't figure out that avoiding apocalpse ismost definately a 'win'…..then our big brains clearly don't endow us with nearly as much reporductive fitness as we thought.

      • kcm

        Well my point holds.Even if it is apocalyptic scaring everyone is having mixed results at best…and when it doesn't come about your credibility is undermined. The public have to think there is a sensible middle way al la Coyne, or they will become so overwhelmed or so opposed that nothing will get done.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

    Andrew Coyne,
    If you ever again do a compare and contrast of the Stern report versus others…..could you at least briefly mention that the Stern report doesn't deeply discount the future (or at least not as much), like most economic assessments.
    I realize that there are lots of good reasons for economists to assume high discount rates…..but there are also lots of good reasons to consider low discount rates.
    Don't studies like Tol's encourage planning for only short time horizons?
    Shouldn't we be erring on the side of lower discount rates, so that markets can do a better job of accounting for future effects?

  • kcm

    "…do I really need to eat the next piece of Norwegian salmon, or could I do without?'

    You'd do neither AC. You'd buy your wild salmon in Canada while you still can. Not eat that farmed crap.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

      How many of the wild salmon population can be considered as genetically distinct from the farmed fish?
      I think there is actually a pretty good chance that salmon harvested outside of the farm will have realtivves that grew up on the farm.

      • kcm

        Not sure about the east coast, but wild stocks are still viable in Bc. They are more influence by the prevalence of hatchery fish than farmed. Hatchery fish are originally taken from wild stock.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

          k,
          Yeah I know their are still viable populations in the wild in B.
          I'm also pretty sure that those same 'wild' populations have a lot of interbreeding with farmed populations. If I recall correctly, genetic markes, as well as obviously morphological differences (salmon found in the wild who displayed body morphology like those fat farm fish, and not like wild fish), were found in wild slamon.
          So my point is…its more like 'mostly wild'- the wild populations have some escaped farm fish mixed in.

          • kcm

            I'm no expert but i'm pretty sure there isn't much interbreeding [ thank goodness ] for some reason the atlantic farmed salmon aren't interbreeding all that successfully.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

            I'm no expert either….
            but I think you're right about the atlantic salmon. Of course, there isn't much wild atlantic slamon period, so there probably isn't much data. I wa thinking of the pacific slamon (you mentioned the BC populaations, of which some still have healthy popualtion numbers)

  • scissorpaws

    I want to see the graphs and the science all those economists are basing their predictions. I mean, did they (or Andrew, for that matter) predict the economic meltdown of '08? Because even climatologists readily admit that they don't know for sure what might happen. We might, for instance, tip well over even the upper limit of C02 to 500 ppm – we're already over the last safe limit of 350 and if you want to bet we won't break 450 I'm sure there are many economists who'll take your money. At what point does the melting of the tundra release methane? At what point does the lack of ice reduce reflection of light back into space? How much? At what point does ocean stop absorbing C02 and leave it in the atmosphere? Nobody knows that, including a lot of pointy headed economists. What we do know is stopping a runaway Greenhouse Effect is next to impossible, and if you think the Masterminds of the Universe who brought you Lamprey, Chinese Carp, Australian Rabbits and Hurricane Proof St Louis are going to be able to do it with sulphur dust in the high atmosphere and enriching the oceans with iron, I've got some GM stock you might be interested in. I think we're in the ounce of prevention territory here, but I also think the push back and denialism is huge and we'll be damned lucky to slow projects such as the Tar Sands.

  • Craig O

    Well written and spot-on here.

    The costs for lowering our carbon emissions are not high nor are the benefits confined to the environment. As practically every economist has pointed out, the most economical plan would be a carbon tax, followed by a well-run cap-and-trade (though I lean heavily towards the former, especially in light of the recent fraud in Europe's cap-and-trade market).

    Right now, many nations (including our own, to an extent) are having some debt problems. Given the incoming wave of boomer retirees, it is highly unlikely that spending can fall significantly, so taxes have to rise in some regard. A carbon tax is less obstructive than virtually any other option – we're going to do harm to the economy anyway to cover our public debts, why not help out the environment in the process? This is doubly true for countries with real debt problems and higher levels of emissions like the US.

    There are numerous secondary benefits to reducing oil consumption, which I won't get into here, that have nothing to do with the environment. All in all, it just adds up to a sheer no-brainer for me – we kill so many birds with one stone for such a marginal cost. 5% less GDP a century from now? I'm ok with that.

  • peter

    I mean, did they (or Andrew, for that matter) predict the economic meltdown of '08?

    No, not one Keynesian or neo-keyensian (Greenspan and Bernanke being the most prominent) called the meltdown. Without exception every Austrian economists (Ron Paul being most widely known example) called the fall and had been warning of its inevitability for years. Totaly ignored all that time by the traditional media, still ignored even after being proved correct in their forecast.

    If you are interested their main web-portal is mises.org and pretty much everything there is now free for download and holy cow it's a gold mine! ( pun intended for those who get it)

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

      Herman Daly (and other 'true cost' economists and ecological economists) has been predicting that the market system will undergo successive shocks because the market systems no longer reflect physical reailites for a long time. Beyond Growth was published in '96.
      Most people who think that economists like Daly have valid criticisms of the market were not shocked at all by the '08 recession.

  • LC Bennett

    I'm surprised that a man of AC age is naive enough to believe that government will impose only a modest carbon tax. Governments rarely resist the temptation to take a new revenue source and squeeze every last drop they can out of it. Ditto for the size of the bureaucracy designed to regulate and enforce the new rules.

    This may add up to one less flight to an exotic location or fancy dinner for baby boomers like AC. After all, they have had an entire lifetime to accumulate wealth but what about others. Kind of a "let them eat cake" attitude to young families starting out and those struggling to keep up. Young families and future generations are also burdened by the previous generations government debts, medicare and pension responsibilities. Apparently, it is not enough to burden youngsters with these obligations, our wise old elders now want to hobble the ability to generate future wealth. They *predict* only 5% but, like UEA CRU's "mess", these computer models are projections programed with operator bias, subject to unforeseen forces and may be proved wildly inaccurate.

    A better short term solution is to build some new nuclear plants (reliable and abundant electricity never goes out of style). For the longer term, provide conditions favorable to economic growth. Prosperity is linked with willingness to protect the environment, the ability to adapt to challenges (natural or unnatural) and promotes technological innovation. Carbon taxes and carbon trading only promotes big government and financial rewards for carbon speculators.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

      Dear LC,
      As a youngster about to enter the workforce, with alow paying job……please do 'burden' me with carbon taxes.

      Presenting Nuclear vs. Carbon taxes as a dichotomy is really silly.

      • LC Bennett

        Not really, kyle . The goal of both is to reduce carbon – the stated goal of AGWers.

        Carbon taxes seek to reduce carbon through pricing 'signals' that make carbon more expensive than its true cost to produce. Governments (the primary beneficiary) predict that this will prompt conservation and make alternative energy more competitive.

        Nuclear power is a proven alternative energy source that actually reduces carbon by replacing coal. The nuclear advantage is that it is not dependent on wind or sun. This makes it more reliable and cost-effective because, unlike wind and solar power, it does not require a fossil fuel backup.

        Why would you want to pay a (forever and increasing) carbon tax scheme that might work rather than pay the cost of a nuclear power plant that will reduce carbon dependency? Carbon taxes and carbon markets benefit a few, increased the supply of electricity benefits everyone regardless of whether AGW turns out to be fact or fiction.

    • Craig O

      Speaking as one of those young people who's got 40+ taxpaying years ahead of him, I'm more than ok with paying a carbon tax, especially if it means my income taxes go down as a result. Government needs to tax something, might as well be pollution instead of my income.

      Plus, we get a carbon tax out now, boomers will still have to pay a significant share (since they're in their prime of earnings and expenditures), and will continue to pay a higher share as they retire, since a retired person generally consumes more than they earn (so consumption taxes like a carbon tax would apply more to them than an income tax). I'm all for taking the burden off young families and onto boomers for their lives of excess, but a carbon tax is precisely the way to do it – and the longer we wait, the more my generation has to cover the costs (like those nuclear plants, which would currently be paid by tacking on more to the deficit…).

      • LC Bennett

        Craig O, perhaps you do not fully understand some important dynamics – future liabilities, economic reality and boomer greed .

        The liabilities we will inherit from the boomers are numerous – debt, health and pension. If the government can manage to stop deficits, the government debt can be paid off over time and as the economy grows the ratio of debt to GDP decreases. Still, in essence, we are paying off our parent's mortgage and getting a run down fixer-upper in return. The health care costs, meanwhile, will be enormous. Just look at any the growth of health costs in any provincial budget… the trendline is up, up, up,significantly faster than inflation or growth. This will only get worse as our population ages and their health deteriorates. Ditto for pension obligations.

        BTW, you are wrong, older people consume less than families. The empty nest is very carbon friendly – less cooking, lower hot water/heating bills and no chauffeuring children place to place. All these activities are an essential part of family life not luxuries like vacations to Florida or one less dinner at a 5 star restaurant. When they say sacrifice and lifestyle changes, they mean for you not them.

        Finally, the boomers still have the numbers to heavily influence the political agenda. Given the history of the boomer generation, do you really think that they will stop demanding more entitlements like "free" drug plans, better elderly services, etc.. At the same time, they will insists on being sheltered from any carbon taxes through senior tax deductions or enhanced pension programs. Of course, all of the deadlines the largest carbon cuts are in the 2050 range when they will not have to live with any negative consequences.

        Nuclear plants are a bargain compared to carbon taxes or cap and trade. At least they are an asset that produces useful product. Bigger government and a carbon market only restrict profitable enterprises and produce nothing of real value. Particularly when the 'science' of climate change is in its infancy. Throwing billions (trillions?) at a possible problem contaminated with dubious solutions and on a foundation of questionable science is a poor return on investment.

        • Craig O

          Older people consume less, yes, but they still consume. However, with virtually no income aside from savings, they pay very, very little in terms of income taxes. Thus, if we have to raise either a consumption tax or income taxes, the old would pay for a greater share of the revenue under a higher consumption tax than under a higher income tax, though they'd still be paying far less than young families in either case.

          You keep dodging around one inescapable thing – the government, to provide services, has to tax SOMETHING. Nuclear power plants cost money, as do all the other services you mention. That money has to come from somewhere. This is the beauty of a carbon tax – instead of costing money, it provides money, all while working towards the goal of lowered carbon emissions. Yes, that money comes from taking it out of the economy, but it would anyway, just in some other form! We don't have to throw that much money at the problem, we just need to influence the market to reward lower emissions.

          What's more, the earlier we put in such a plan, the better. You're right, the liabilities we inherent from the boomers are numerous and they include potential environmental costs. So, putting in a carbon tax now, before boomer consumption drops as they retire, the more we can get them to pay for the problem. That tax lowers our debt and helps provide a framework which can better cover the rising costs of health care and the CPP. Spending money on things like nuclear plants (which I think we should do anyway) costs money, increasing the debt and making it harder to cover future liabilities.

          Yes, the boomers do have influence and they will likely use it to stop helpful policies that hold them responsible. That's a problem, but not a reason for inaction. If our generation is really going to approach this next half century with the attitude that doing difficult things or standing up to greed is not worth attempting, then we're going to fall into the same traps as the boomers and push costs onto our kids, just as they push costs onto us. I'd rather not go down that road.

          • LC Bennett

            I disagree Craig existing taxes are high enough to provide existing services. In fact, I believe there is room to cut (or rearrange) the fat. How about use the CBC's billion per year or skim a bit off equalization to fund nuclear. I am sure the CBC and Quebec would gladly sacrifice for the greater good as they seem to be true believers in AGW.

            Then there is the other problems with carbon taxes like fewer jobs in the energy sector and the unity problems. The energy sector is also a main driver of federal revenue. Any carbon tax gains could be offset with energy sector revenue losses. The price is higher than simply slapping down a tax and making the 'problem' go away. Carbon taxes have far more cons than pros.

            Meanwhile, nuclear plants allow for lower carbon without negatively impacting the energy sector or hurting young families. It also provides electricity, a valuable and exportable product.

          • Craig O

            Existing taxes have a detrimental effect too. Even if we run with your premise that we don't need to raise taxes at all to reduce the current debt levels, or to handle the additional costs associated with the baby boomer retirement wave (both assumptions I strongly disagree with), we still have income taxes that could be replaced by a carbon tax.

            I really don't think you're understanding this point – the government has to tax SOMETHING. Right now they primarily tax incomes. I'd rather they move some of that tax burden away from income and onto pollution. For all the bad a carbon tax does to the economy, income taxes are worse because rather than discouraging one economic activity (pollution and actions which result in pollution), income taxes discourage economic activity as a whole, as people have less with which to spend.

            You're repeating a very old, very tired argument against carbon taxes, where you look at only one side of the picture (the damage to the economy caused by taxation) while ignoring the other side (the potential services provided by the revenues of taxation). And then, when looking at nuclear plants, you do the reverse, considering only the benefits of the expenditure while completely ignoring the damage to the economy that the taxation needed to pay for that plant would do – those young families would be damaged, they have to pay for the plant through taxes!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/kylebailey260 kylebailey260

    Cragi O,
    That is a nice sum-up of how young people really, really should be fighting hard for a carbon tax.
    Too bad our generation doesn't vote much eh?

  • LC Bennett

    You'll have to excuse any errors. I prefer writing short, to-the-point memos that require far less editing..

  • peter

    cont…The attitude of the "elite" is best summed up by a Madeline Albright interview with Leslie Stahl, where she states on the record that the murder of 500,000 innocent Iraqi children was a price worth paying to "contain" Saddam, who was their own creation.

    These are the same guys supporting the carbon tax…they may not care about my kids, but I do.

  • LC Bennett

    Anyway, here is another take on what to do about climate change:

    http://reason.com/archives/2009/12/08/whats-the-b…

    I believe that the last option, the progress option is best. Nuclear power is a distant second until the true nature of global warming is confirmed. Flailing blindly in the dark with uncertain science or counting on government command and control policies to "save the world" is poor decision-making in my books.

  • Dot

    Bravo. Good stuff.

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