Categories: Need to know

Green Shift, redux?

Stephen Harper doesn’t rule out a future tax on carbon emissions

by macleans.ca on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:22pm - 53 Comments

Stephen Harper doesn’t want Canada to have a carbon tax, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. In a year-end interview with CTV, the prime minister admitted the final decision will likely be out of his hands. “I mean, we’re going to have to see what the regime in the United States looks like,” Harper said of the prospects for a Green Shift-like tax on emissions. “We’re going to have to harmonize a lot of our efforts with their efforts to really be truly effective on a continental basis.” Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff has already said he expects carbon pricing, either as a straight tax or under a cap-and-system, to be implemented some time in the future. But as far as Harper is concerned, it will be “very difficult” for Canada to do much of anything unless the U.S. implements new restrictions.

Anon Liberal

I guess it's not a "tax on everything" if the Americans do it first.

What a jerkwad. And what jerks we are for not electing Dion over this clown.

David B.

And when Canada had a chance with Dion we had $18 Billion in the bank and no deficit, fools and their money are soon parted ….. and Steve looked out across the country and found them coast to coast to coast …. and they are growing so fast he is 100% sure he will have the largest majority in Canadian History. Why because Canadians are becoming the biggest fools on the face of earth.

Merry Christmas

DPT

Would it be safe to assume you are in the "embarassed to be Canadian" category along with David Miller and Elizabeth May? Who was it again that was demanding stimulus, demanding a sacrifice to the carbon gods, demanding enhanced EI benefits for anyone that could show up for a solid 9 weeks? That 18B ( I asssume you mean the GST cut) didn't just go up in smoke, it's working in the economy. Just because it didn't end up supporting your latest trendy socialist income redistribution scheme doesn't mean it ceased to exist.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Nich Nich

"trendy socialist income redistribution scheme"

Is that what we are calling balanced governmental books these days?

DPT

no, that's what we call the opposition demands to spend billions on every pet project that ever crossed thier desk.

Ryan

Oh screw off David B. Stop being bitter just because Canadians finally believe in conservatism instead of whatever philosophy loony liberals believe in. It's funny how liberals always use the argument that the conservatives spent us into a deficit as if the liberals wouldn't have spent 10x more. Remember that coalition with the communist NDP and seperatist Bloc?! Yeah, that wouldn't have cost anything at all to support their policies eh?!

Friggin liberals and their lack of logic.

http://twitter.com/pato31 @pato31

"Canadians finally believe in conservatism"? do you understand what this tidbit is about? you must be the loony one.

Ryan

My bad, I suppose Canadians have believed in conservatism longer than I am giving them credit for. That's the only possible explanation for your reply that seems to make any sense.
http://twitter.com/pato31 @pato31

no. A liberal announced a carbon tax in his platform. Now this supposedly "conservative" prime-minister that you speak of is not ruling one out. Please explain to me where "Canadians finally believe in conservatism" fits into this? Because in my mind, conservatism is dead when we have a "conservative" government throwing out fiscal responsibility and stealing the liberals platform.
Ryan

(see, I can type non-sensical replies to non-sensical attempts at insult as well)

http://intensedebate.com/people/Nich Nich

Well, the most conservative PM we have had in the last 30 years or so was Chrétien… odd, that.

He was also the most entertaining.

Since every 'Conservative' leader we have had has outspent and outgrown the previous 'non-Conservative' government before them, I would say Canadians have no gauge of what government-practiced conservatism is. Well, those of us under 40 anyways…

the realist

Now I understand the violence of Harper's repulsive attack on Dion's Green Shift: it was caused by jealousy and envy. When will he finally abandon that other conservative fairy tale that says that we can borrow like drunken sailors, never increasing taxes and leave the bills for our kids and grand kids to pay? Of course he will raise taxes (stupid ones like payroll taxes rather than more intelligent consumption taxes) "reluctantly" and will claim that we are lucky because he will implement it effectively. If BS were $10 per pound the harper conservatives would be priceless.
JD Boss

Thats what happens when you outsource regulatory policy to a different country.

Harper flip flopping on the carbon tax would be par for the course.

He flip flopped on gay marriage, failed to stop late term abortions, ran up the biggest deficit on history, appointed more senators than Jean Chretien, abused the public purse for partisan political advantage, had an overnight conversion to Keynsian economic policy, cut and run from Afghanistan and swelled the size of the public service to the largest ever.

This is a man with no scruples, no guiding principles or philosphical grounding. All of these policies are simply peices on a chess board moved in order to obtain his own selfish thirst for power.

The threat to his power will not come from the Liberals or the NDP. It will come from his own his base, the people that gave him power, who will quickly realize that this man no longer represents them.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

Well I for one would rather my politicians be hypocrits rather than idiots. Cap and Trade is a cumbersome, idiotic approach that can never work. The sooner we move to a carbon tax the better.
http://intensedebate.com/people/danby danby

Oh! Poor Stephen
Once again forced to steer through the treacherous shoals borne of mankind's ignorance
tis kind fate that has granted us your wise and benevolent leadership
Carry on proud steward
How gracefully you bear our burden,
ungrateful tho we are
JimD

I can't imagine how my grandfather's generation would have reacted if they were told their government was going to start taxing the very air they breathe. The day this goes through is the day I actively start looking for another place to live. If you think it is anything more than an orchestrated transfer of wealth, you probably need to do some soul searching.

Anon Liberal

May I suggest Somalia for your future relocation? Very low taxes there. No government to bother you.

JimD

Why do so many "liberals" love to pay unjustified taxes? I have no fundamental problem with the concept of taxes, but they should be just and used to directly finance the EFFICIENT DELIVERY of government services. Even if they want to tax nitrous oxide and sulfur dioxide, which are actually pollutants, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it could be implemented efficiently (a big if).

The fact remains, despite the protestations of zealous greenies, that CO2 IS NOT POLLUTION!!!!!! CO2, and certainly not the human-caused component, does not have any appreciable effect on climate change. Water vapour does though….. but I suppose as a Liberal you'd be all for a steam tax.

http://twitter.com/pato31 @pato31

good riddance.
Ryan

I don't know where else we're going to live. I guess we'll just have to hope that the Americans don't do anything in the next 3 years and vote in a Republican. I suppose all we can do until then is… well… hold our breath.
Andre

Ungratefulness of government is more liberal than Liberal.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Nich Nich

Due to budget deficits, soul searching is now a regulated activity that you need an annual permit for. The permit is available for a very reasonable $1,000,000,000.

Dee

Laughably predictable. Dion doesn't look so bad after all, eh?

If Dion had slightly better communication skills (and the national media weren't so enthusiastic to dump on him, and the Conservatives weren't so ready to lie and launch vicious, partisan attacks regardless of national good, and if Canadians weren't so apathetic and then wondered why we've become an international laughing-stock on enviroment issues, …) then… then we might have been ahead of our time with Canadian environmental policy.
the realist

To Duke

Actually the Liberals govern as competant managers (remember surpluses .. before Harper screwed up the finances) something conservatives can only dream of.
the realist

Instead we are in the stone age, the conservative version where dinosaurs chase after the Flintstones
the realist

The bottom line is that there are really only two ways to vote: You can vote for Harper and his reactionnaries who only do the right thing as a last resort and reluctantly or you can vote for Liberal competance and effective progressive prudent policies. If you vote NDP you effectively vote for Harper. If you vote Green you effectively vote for Harper. To believe otherwise is to delude yourself.

DPT

"…or you can vote for Liberal competance and effective progressive prudent policies."

Oh yeah, who was that guy again, Pierre somebody? Didn't he stop that whole structural deficit thingy,or did he start it? Talk about prudent policy, that whole NEP thing was brilliant and who could forget that wage & price freeze policy? the best part of that was that he promised not to do it and then guess what? He did it! Sheer genius I tell you. Also something about no business in the bedrooms of the nation, or was that wallets, can't quite recall. Whatever, it was about getting screwed by Liberals.

Dee

Yeah, I'm sure Mulroney's Progressive Conservatives had nothing to do with running up the national debt either, eh DPT? Nice selective history…

DPT

Mulroney inherited a structural deficit after close to 15 years of Liberal binging, at least he ran operationally balanced budgets. The interest payments on the debt kept growing increasing the deficit. He was no angel but if you recall interest rates were extremely high during that time. (in excess of 14%). To ignore the Liberal part in this is missing the beginning of the story. It's kind of like pushing someone off the top of the hill on a taboggan and expecting them to turn around and go uphill once they're half way down.

Fred – Brandon MB

Liberal competence?? Besides the obvious oxymoron, who was it that committed Canada to unrealistic goals under Kyoto, then for years afterward did absolutely nothing to achieve those goals? Who was it that keeps making campaign promises then renegging? (Wage & Price Controls, eliminate the GST, nation daycare, eliminate child poverty, cancel Free Trade, etc) Who was it that created a structural deficit during the 70's that took Mulroney 8 years to reverse? Then eliminated the deficit by downloading costs on the Provinces while taking credit for the prosperity that Mulroney's legacy (Free Trade & the GST) gave us?

The Liberals, who now have taken to revising history every time it doesn't suit their argument.

http://intensedebate.com/people/balabu balabu

Kyoto? The liberals appointed an idiot as environment minister and he named his dog Kyoto. Is that not enough? If they would return to power they will buy the PM a dog and name him Copenhagen

http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_D_world M_A_D_world

Before the cheers and jeers start too loudly over a carbon tax, let's see what exactly they're taxing and exempting. I'm still envisioning a consumption tax with enough loopholes in it that it'll cost as much to administer as collect. Still given the other option on the table is the crooked dream of cap and trade I might take the damned tax.
http://www.ronsonehfdhf.com Ronson

The hilarious thing for Conservatives, is that any plan coming out of the US is going to make the Greenshift look like a holiday.

US analysts are predicting carbon to be priced somewhere between 150-$200 a tonne by 2015. Dion was proposing 40 dollars a tonne, plus a 10 percent reduction on your income taxes.

Well you know what they say, voters get the government they deserve.
wafer

Dion looks and is as bad as ever. There is a difference between voting in a carbon tax and being forced into one. The U.S. is the elephant folks and their leader is trying to earn his Nobel prize therefore we won't have much choice. You can hardly blame the Gov't just as you cannot blame the deficit on the Gov't. Again they had to react against their plan because they were forced into it by a bunch of vultures who happened to throw their own principles away to form the reluctant gang.

kcm

Er…just what if anything IYHO is this govt responsible for?
http://intensedebate.com/people/danby danby

Poor Stephen
Once again led astray by the treachery of others
It's not his fault…..

http://intensedebate.com/people/Nich Nich

It will forever be known as the 'Taliban dupe'

Andre

So Harper is a spineless wiener that bends to the oposition's demand?

Now there's good news.
wafer

Clever retorts all; I think all these replies were written by Layton under different pseudonyms. You are likely the same people that cried that Harper wasn't cooperative in Parliament, and wasn't doing what had to be done for the well being of the country etc., etc., etc.
Oh and for Layton disguised as Andre, you should go back and read some of the whinings of your Coalition bandits.

p.s. I've only voted for the CPC twice but I am sick of the whiners in this country that reverse their opinions daily just so they have something to b*itch about.

kcm

You had a choice sir! Those words ring a bell, by any chance?
kcm

You had a choice sir! Those words ring a bell, by any chance?
http://intensedebate.com/people/balabu balabu

S. Harper already is on record stating that the whole AGW is a leftist BS. As long as US did not do anything about this crap Canada did not do either. No matter how much the parasitic NGO (Green peace, Suzuki, Al Gore, at al) screamed. Now that US has elected a leftist loony Canada maybe forced to do something in order not to scuttle the trade with its major trading partner. Same as he was forced to do with the Automobile industry bail out while holding his nose. There is a chance that the Senate in the US will not approve any of the Obama carbon reduction BS and Canada will no do anything either. But if they do Canada may be forced to follow. That what Harper said. Taxing Carbon is bad but not as bad as cap and trade, which would profit American banks and line the pockets of third world thieving leaders. Of all the crocked politicians that I have seen in my life (I am 77 years old) Harper stands out as the most honest.

kcm

that's funny, until today cap and trade was the preferred consevative option.

http://intensedebate.com/people/balabu balabu

The preferred Conservative option was and still is doing nothing,

http://intensedebate.com/people/balabu balabu

As to Dion he was and still is an idiot all what he did under Chretien as Enviroment minister is calling his dog Kyoto. When elected as Liberal Leader he declared that Canada would make ton of money from his Green vision. Ton of money? I wonder if knows to count to 20 without removing his shoes and counting his toes.

kcm

Ever heard of a place called Sweden or Norway…no, probably not?

Fred – Brandon MB

You and Dion are welcome to move there.

some thoughts

To balabu

You should not be so hard on Mr. Harper. The only conclusion which can be drawn from your comment is that he is so stupid and slow that he has to steal the ideas of idiots (your definition of Mr. Dion) because he has none of his own. Of course you are right about Mr. Harper. Your are wrong about Mr. Dion. His only problems were that he was right too soon and was innefective in explaining why his policies were the right ones. Cassandra is never listened to and some (mostly conservatives) realize only to late that pandering to populism is not usually the right thing to do. It is unfortunate that your years have not thought you wisdom but rather have set your prejudices in concrete.

http://intensedebate.com/people/balabu balabu

I guess you have to be young, impressionable, living in lala land, indoctrinated by leftist teachers from kindergarten up to leftist professors in university, if you somehow you managed to get in; getting you world view from the leftist CBC and Toronto Star to be completely brainwashed unable of critical independent thought other than just parroting the party line.
If you bothered to read end tried to understand my comment you would see that the difference between Harper and Dion is that Dion wanted to impose the tax because of his flawed ideology and blind submission to the “Science” of Global warming (renamed now climate change). Harper did not want anything of this BS and tried and still is trying not damage the Economy of Canada for as long as he can. However he may be FORCED into that if the loony president of US manages to impose this crap on the US and Canada will have to follow.

wayne moores

Just a whily PM taking a page out of the old master's (Cretian's) handbook. Say anything to appease the eco-kooks and do absolutely nothing. There is Zero chance of any sort of Carbon Tax or Cap & Fraud getting thought the House and the Senate Stateside. Word from Copenfraud is that China India and Brazil torpedoed any of these kookie schemes(as Obama knew they would). Now Harper can say Gee, why us when the people creating the make believe problem are doing nothing. Perfect.
Fred – Brandon MB

As long as we stay away from Cap & Trade. Cap & Trade is subject to manipulation and corruption which is already evident in the world's existing systems.

As well, it allows polluters to continue without penalty as long as they can afford to buy credits.

Regulation enforced reductions is still the best way to reduce emmissions.
wayne moores

This just in, Interpol is investigating a massive carbon credit scam in Europe which separated somewhere near 7 billion dollars from the Euro-idiots in a matter of months. What a total farce. Thank God Dion was run out of town before he signed us up for that insanity. Harper just gave the Canadian taxpayer a huge Chistmas gift. Of course the patholgical "Harper Haters" will never admit this and will blame him for not being there to have Canada "police" the whole scam. Merry Chistmas!
Duke

As usual the Conservatives govern as if they are Liberals and the Liberals govern as if the are Conservatives. No wonder Canadians don't vote we never actually get who we vote for.