Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The Commons: ‘I shouldn’t have to be here’

by Aaron Wherry on Saturday, January 23, 2010 4:58pm - 179 Comments

“If there’s a silver lining to the dark cloud of this political crisis in Ottawa, it’s an amazing, spontaneous degree of citizen engagement,” he said. “In a way, this manufactured crisis has woken Canadians up out of their so-called apathy.”

That was, to be fair, some 13 months ago and Jason Kenney, the immigration minister, had just witnessed 3,000 people gather in downtown Calgary to protest the possibility of a coalition government. “I don’t recall anything on such short notice with such a large crowd in this city,” Mr. Kenney gushed. One assumes the sentiment roughly holds for today’s events too.

Then John Baird was proudly declaring the government’s intent to “go over the heads” of the Members of Parliament and the Governor General, and go “right to the Canadian people.” Then it was Steven Fletcher, minister of state for democratic reform, encouraging all his fellow Manitobans to rally for no less than the nation we all hold dear.

Thirteen months later, a new political crisis. Then, the government side yelled “traitor!” Now, the other side yells “dictator!” Once more, our civic engagement runneth over.

Perhaps we should make political crisis an annual event.

Whatever the wisdom of crowds, and however exploited by partisan interest, it is difficult to judge the relevance of the public protest. Two years ago, 5,000 gathered on the front lawn of Parliament for a pro-China rally. There were no immediate calls for the country to consider communism. A year later, some 30,000 Tamils turned out to protest the conflict in Sri Lanka. Owing to some concerns about symbolism, only Jack Layton walked outside to address them.

Make what you will then of 3,500—a number equal to the crowd that rallied for Canada thirteen months ago—who gathered before Centre Block’s front steps this afternoon to denounce the prorogation of Parliament.

At its essence, the public protest is both charming and antiquated. A crowd gathers and chants and cheers and, when prompted, cries “shame” upon whatever shameful act has brought them there. Various individuals take the microphone to awkwardly and loudly air their grievances, almost all speaking roughly three times as long as they should. Periodically someone breaks into song.

This afternoon brought out the young and old, the peaceniks and socialists, the Nortel pensioners and autoworkers, the environmentalists and the electoral reformists. This being Ottawa, a place almost entirely unihabitable save for a two-week period each July, it was rather cold.

Chants involved various meditations on the theme of resuming one’s work and various rhymes for the word prorogation (nation, generation, investigation, television station, etc.). Jack Layton, beneath a wide-brimmed hat and dark sunglasses, wandered amongst the common men and women. A young lady read aloud from the list of legislation that perished in the great prorogation of New Year’s Eve 2009. The Raging Grannies, a group of elderly women who are somehow required at these sorts of events, performed a few of their self-penned tunes, somewhat dampening the fervour. A young man with a guitar singing a folk song entitled We Are The Beaver sufficiently revived the masses.

If there is some unimpeachably redeeming value in such demonstrations, beyond the physical and photographable display of public sentiment, it is the waved placard, one of the enduring mediums for political wit. Today’s signs included “I Prorogued The Dishes To Be Here,” “Your Sweater Vest Can’t Fool Us” and, perhaps most Canadian of all, “I Shouldn’t Have To Be Here.” Showing fine artistic skill for his age, a young boy traipsed around with a sign that read “I have to go to school, so why don’t you have to go to work?”

After a girl with a blue guitar sang a plaintive song, Mr. Layton was called on to speak. He reached immediately for his Reagan moment. “Mr. Harper,” he implored. “Un. Lock. These. Doors.”

The NDP leader was no doubt in his element, jabbing the air with his index finger and bellowing his syllables. He invoked King Charles I, the ultimately beheaded monarch who famously and fatefully clashed with the English Parliament. “I cannot advocate, nor will I advocate the decapitating of anyone,” Mr. Layton clarified. “We have elections to prosecute these things.”

Michael Ignatieff soon followed in his own meditative way. “You are a beautiful sight,” he said. “When the Prime Minister phoned the Governor General on New Year’s Eve, he had no idea you’d be here today.”

Mr. Ignatieff stepped away from the podium shortly thereafter and explained to reporters that, quite unlike last week, his side was interested in legislating limits upon a Prime Minister’s ability to request the House of Commons be prorogued.

While he did so, a band entertained the crowd with a song called Prorogation, sung to the tune of Leonard Cohen’s Hallelujah.

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  • non-partisan

    I'm not usually one to blame the media for anything, it was it is and people should get over their self-righteous complaining about bias (on both sides, often about the same publication, sometimes about the same article), but the constant media attention for those few days on how big the Facebook group had gotten was ridiculous, and now seems even more so. Clicking one's mouse has obviously proved to be easier than traipsing out to Parliament Hill or Dundas Square. Web 2.0 fails again.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

      Well, the anti-coalition FB page grabbed about 125,000 members, the Prorogue FB page attracted about 213,000 members. I would suggest we try for a bit of number crunching (is it possible to find unspun attendance figures for either?) and figure out what the average "live" response rate from net clicking is. If it's 10% or so, as it seems for both, that's actually a quite high response rate from a marketing standard.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/IntenseAlex IntenseAlex

    3)In the British House of Commons over the past 100 years, the average turnover of MPs from election to election has been roughly 7%. Comparatively, the average turnover of the membership of the Canadian House of Commons between 1945 and 2008 is 37%. The highest turnover rate was 72.2%, after the 1993 election. According to Franks, short-lived MPs combined with long-serving PMs results in a weakening of parliament.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/IntenseAlex IntenseAlex

    4)Of a number of government departments examined by Dr. Franks, there was only one whose Deputy Minister had been with the department longer than five years. Nine DMs have been with their respective departments for only three years, which Dr. Franks considers the threshold to learn the job. He believes DMs should remain in their posts for at least five years.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/IntenseAlex IntenseAlex

    6)The number of bills (not percentage) receiving royal assent between 1945 and 2009 has been declining. In the King-St. Laurent years, 67 government bills received royal assent. Only 27 have received royal assent under Harper. The average is currently 50. That means that either there was lots of work to do in the old days, or governments are trying to avoid parliament. Governments accomplish this through “government enabling acts” and omnibus bills, instead of introducing separate bills for different issues.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/IntenseAlex IntenseAlex

    I asked Dr. Franks what he thought about limiting the PM’s power to prorogue. His answer was similar to the one he gave Aaron. Prorogation is an act of the Crown, not the PM, therefore, there is no problem with parliament putting limits on the PM’s ability to request prorogation. They cannot limit the Governor General. This would need to happen one of two ways: the first would be a change in the standing orders that states the PM may only ask for a prorogation after the House of Commons passes a motion to prorogue. The other route would be to introduce legislation, but since the government obviously won’t be compelled to introduce such legislation anytime soon, it would have to be a private member’s bill. This could take years, given the current number of PMBs in the cue. Franks says there would be problems if parliament attempted to adopt rules stating that sessions must last twelve months, or that a prorogation cannot last more than one month.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/IntenseAlex IntenseAlex

    Sorry for the multiple, long-winded posts, everyone, but I thought I'd toss it all out there. :-)

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      Thanks for your citizen reportage of Franks' speech!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

      Yes, many thanks, Alex!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

      Excellent job! Very interesting. I absolutely hate omnibus bills, it seems so like cheating, and also one is always asked to swallow a poison pill to get the thing you really want. So I'll put that on my parliamentary reform wish list, now that I know it wasn't always thus. Also great information on MP turnover and Deputy Ministers. I hadn't given the consequences of that any thought up to now, and it makes sense what Franks says. However, if it takes three years to fully understand the job (which I believe) I would want a lot more than two years out of the investment. I'd put DMs remaining at their post for at least 7 years (barring incompetence, quitting, all the usual).

      Thanks very much, IntenseAlex.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

      Very interesting, IntenseAlex. I wish I heard a speaker like Franks at the rally I attended, one who looked at the entire system and said it was broken instead of solely focusing on proroguing issues.

      I am not sure what to make of Franks' point about DMs. On the one hand, it is good to have institutional memory but I also worry we will have too many Sir Humphreys running the show.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey_Appleby

      • ahm

        I think it's useful to have a DM serve for at least five years. Because you are bound to have the Minister change within that period, it's good for morale and efficacy for the ministry to have the XO know what's going on. Of course, that requires a good DM, but that's something else. Our Deputy's served under at least 2 Minister's, and we're a stronger organization for that. But, he is an excellent manager and has a unique understanding and history with the Ministry.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/IntenseAlex IntenseAlex

      No problem, everyone! My pleasure.

      Just a quick note on the numbers for the British House of Commons: My notepad has "highest 2%, avg 7%" written in it, which obviously can't be right. So the proper numbers might be a 7% maximum, and an average of 2%. Either way, take that number with a grain of salt, but the point remains that is far below our 37% average.

  • non-partisan

    Its great that people are comparing last-year's anti-coalition protests to this year's anti-prorogation protests like sports scores. Never mind that they aren't comparable in so many ways; it is almost impossible to isolate any variable consistent to both of them. But go ahead and keep treating our democracy like an NHL play-off race, it will reach that level of relevancy soon enough.

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      Hey, fair enough, but it's to be expected no? I mean, all the people who thought the anti-coalition rallies were an upspringing of popular rebellion of which we must take heed seem to be dismissing the latest (larger) rallies as nothing worthy of notice. Similarly, I'm sure there are many people who were quite proud of today's rallies who thought the anti-coalition rallies were just a sad reflection of Canadians ignorance of Parliamentary governance, and not at all indicative of popular sentiment.

      It's kinda like Stephen Harper. He's all Preston Manning when he's campaigning, and all Jean Chretien once he gets elected.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/novagardener novagardener

        I did the rounds of the MSM sites this am and the con patrols were out in full force dismissing not only the various reported numbers, but actually the rallies as just a left wing anti-Harper, whining, etc., etc. group. Amazing how the supporters of the cons last year said it was a grass roots movement, that the coalition was equal to a coup, etc. but now put down yesterday's rally. Bunch of f***ing hyprocrits.

        • kathryn c

          It was pretty obviously a campaign – I noticed the timestamps on all the anti-rally posts were very early for a Sunday. At least it seemed so to me. Who goes online and posts vitriol at 8 a.m. on a rainy Sunday?

          Benefit of the doubt, perhaps it was the church attendance that riled them?

    • YSP

      Hey, I'd be happy if issues of democracy could get the same level of public attention as the NHL play-offs. A lot of the businesses here in my town seemed pretty clueless why there were seven or eight hundred chanting people out front.

  • Dot

    Say, if you are not employed by the CPC, why the obsession?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      It's a fairly unprecedented event in Canadian history, and as a news junkie I enjoy doing this sort of number-crunching. It's fun. I'll be curious to see what the final tally is. My new best estimate is still under 20,000, depending on what figure gets accepted for T.O.

      It's not like it makes a huge difference whether the final tally is 17,000 or 20,000 or 25,000. The important point is that large numbers of Canadians attended the rallies.

      • Dot

        Where do you get your iinitial info from?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

        The final numbers won't make a huge difference, Crit, you are right. But as one of them, I am interested! I've never been part of an "event in Canadian history" before!

        Thanks for putting all the numbers together.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

          Hey, it's just another task that falls to the defence department.

          He has the time now that he's completed his exhaustive research
          on every word spoken or written by that Ignatieff guy.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            Sadly, I don't think my secret admirers in the defence department have been too fond of me ever since Paul Wells highlighted my critical comments about the Minister of National Defence

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

            I wasn't talking about national defence.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

          You're welcome, Jenn!

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            Thought you might be interested CR that there's a discussion in the FB group where a lady is tallying low estimates, high estimates and medians. Now, she's a member of the group, so there's that. Also, for Toronto anyway, she seems to be decidedly in the camp that thinks the estimates are way too low (a sentiment I've seen from a number of people who were downtown today) so she has the low Toronto estimate at 7,000 and the high at 20,000 (which surprised me, as I hadn't seen an estimate higher than 15,000 anywhere).

            Anyway, her numbers nationally show a low of 18,222 and a high of 44,573 (it's crazy how far apart estimates can be!) with a median of 27,356. I figure with more conservative Toronto numbers of 5000-10,000 (I know some will still think those too high) that puts the national numbers between 16,222 and 34,573.

            Interesting note on the T.O numbers is a discussion in the group about how at one point there were too many people for Dundas Square and so police had to block off part of Yonge Street. Given that Dundas Square can supposedly hold 8,000 people, the argument is that if there was enough overflow to have to block off part of Yonge to accommodate it, that there simply HAD to be more than 8,000 people there (actually, the person making that argument said the Square holds 12,000, but I heard 8, so I'll stick with that).

            Obviously all of that can be seen as being worth less (in terms of objectivity) than media reports, but I thought you might be interested. Even more interesting to me was that the woman doing all the compiling was tracking over 60 rallies. I knew there were a lot, but had no idea it was that many (keeping in mind that some of those were very small, some even single digits).

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            Thanks, LKO. I think the highest credible estimate is about 24,000 and the lowest credible estimate is about 16,000. Any estimate for T.O. that is higher than 10,000 seems wildly exaggerated. I'm going with 7,000 for T.O., which is the number that is most strongly justified by media reports. (The police estimate of 5,000 is probably too low).

            My final estimate for total rally attendance is 20,000.

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            Actually, it turns out the capacity of Dundas Square actually IS 12,000 people. Interesting to keep in mind when looking at pics of the rally (and it makes me think the 7000-9000 estimates may well be closer than the 5000-70000, just based on pics and video I've seen, and the fact that the police felt there wasn't enough room in the Square for all the people).

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            Agreed, but if people were moving around Dundas square they may not have achieved the same density that you would get when everyone is standing still and squeezing tightly together, which I think is how the12,000 max. capacity was calculated.

            Unless people were packed so tightly together that it was almost impossible to move (like some outdoors concerts I've been to), then I'll go with the more conservative estimate.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

            All right, that's it. Next rally I go to, I want a turnstile!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tdotlib tdotlib

            In my experience I arrived around 130 and I was able to make my way through the crowd quite easily until about 25 meters from the stage when things packed up tightly. Of course, the crowd grew after I got there and had already found my spot on the edge of the square.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            I was moving around the square at about 2pm, looking for friends, and though it was fairly easy around the edges (i.e. by the metal chairs beneath the overhanging thing on the north end, and on the streets) it wasn't easy to get through the middle of the crowd. It wasn't tightly packed like at a rock concert, i.e. impossible to move, but you definitely had to ask for people to open a way.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            Hi Jack, I posted this in reply to LKO on a different thread. Based on this site map Dundas Square has an area of 2,100 square metres. (30+50)/2*60. (not including the stage area).

            Crowd density estimates stem from the fact that people would each tend to occupy around a quarter of a square metre in a very crowded space, so for a tight crowd we could make a rough estimate of 8,400 people for Dundas Square (not counting people milling around on the nearby sidewalks and streets).

            I don't think the crowd density was nearly this tight, so even allowing for the fact that many ralliers were not standing in the square itself at any given time, I'm still comfortable with the 7,000 estimate.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

            That sounds reasonable; thanks for the calculations. I'd say it was that tight up around the stage, but not so tight in back or underneath the metal structure, which fits with your rejection of the 8400 figure. Thanks for gathering all this data, you're well in advance of the MSM (as usual).

  • James Connors

    I saw the guy with the pitchfork:

    http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/player.html?clipid=1…

    Harper's horns and tail? Has anyone seen him in person recently?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    All of my numbers come from local media reports.

    • Dot

      Wow,so you were working on this for hours, and you knew where to find the numbers, all across canada, and consolidate them in short order. I doubt anyone else here, especially me, could accomodate that without help.

      What's your secret? Emboldened after Jane quoted "your" blog that Pete was "advised" about?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

        It took me about 30 minutes to type perhaps 20 "city name" + "rally" queries into Google News, find the relevant articles, and compile the numbers into a spreadsheet. I don't know why you persist in making idiotic comments, Dot, unless you're deliberately trying to annoy me.

        • André

          He's waiting for you to make a comment, not a report. I'm guessing you're currently shattering his admiration for you intelligently insightful wisdom of pure genius.

        • Dot

          Sorry, don't buy it. If your genius (which I honestly think you have) is being wasted on 2500+ comments, and pooling facebook results without compensation, then that speaks volumes about the current state of Alberta and its investment in IQ.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            I don't think it's a waste, Dot. I participate in online discussions about Canadian politics and Canadian issues because I really enjoy it, and I learn a lot from it. I don't think that my free time would be better spent by watching more TV.

          • Dot

            waste of talent.

            whatever.

          • Jan

            What is the number you're using to declare the rallies meaningful – or not? I assume that's where you're going with this.

          • Dunbar A. Fortiori

            The number of importance here is "155" – the number of seats in The Commons Harper requires for a majority.

            The numerical exercise that is demonstrated here is merely another vain attempt to count the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

            The actual number of rallies and the exact number of people attending or subscribed to the Facebook pages are unimportant next to the unmistakeable conclusion that Canadians in significant numbers have little confidence in Mr. Harper as Prime Minister, hence in his government and are prepared to make that dissatisfaction known in no uncertain terms.

            This could be learning moment for Harper where he could, ahem, recalibrate his conception of the mandate he has received to govern, however, experience indicates Harper may say something conciliatory but will likely dismiss this signal and his actions will belie whatever new position or compromise he attempts to communicate in his attempt to marginalise this event.

            His entire history indicates he will ignore the majority of Canadians who do not agree his positions and actions. He does not even have loyalty to or respect for those who did vote for his party in the last elections. [See Income Trusts, Michael Fortier, David Emerson etc. to the Acts that have died on the order paper due to this prorogue.]

            And that is why people marched in the streets Saturday.

  • André

    Oh and make that Kapuskasing – 1

    I went to see our usual place of gathering and found no one, so I went to Tim's for tea.

  • Lord Kitchener's Own

    As above, sorry. So many people are ridiculing or under-counting today's rallies that I replied to your anti-coalition comment as an anti-prorogation comment,

    Sorry! :-)

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/IntenseAlex IntenseAlex

    5)From 1990 to 2010, the average number of ministers per department has been ten. In the last ten years, the average has been five, and under Prime Minister Harper, the average is three. Conversely, there have only been five Prime Ministers in the last twenty years (three if Campbell and Martin are excluded), and 3 in the last ten years. Therefore, the locus of power in the federal government is the PMO.

  • Anon001

    20,000 people across Canada organized almost entirely through social media. I would say that's pretty good in the middle of January.

    I guess the next stage would be to (a) demand the Afghan documents and (b) require more honest budgeting.

    • Fred – Brandon MB

      20,000 people manipulated by Liberal hacks. Led like sheep, a mindless horde of lemmings.

      • kathryn c

        Answering the question (that nobody has asked) why did the CPC never attain a majority?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/novagardener novagardener

    My husband and I attended yesterday's rally in Halifax. The weather was colder than anticipated and I detest the cold, but it was worth it.

  • David B.

    When was the last time in History of Canada a protest against such "Poor Leadership" was held not just across Canada but in countries around the world!? 'NENER" !

    It seems strange that not only has Mr. Harper decided to give his MP's and Senator yes "SENATORS" ( Is it any wonder there was chanting of abolish the Senate at the Halifax Rally) a taxpayer extended vacation when Parliament should have been recalled early to get 100% collective political support in one room working to save lives in Haiti. How quickly we put a Canadian Dream Team on the Ice when a Gold Medal is at stake, not so for the poor and suffering people in Haiti. Shameful at best.

    Note to editors of the Canada's MSM ….. strange how you missed this thought in your questions to our absent PM, MP's, Ministers & Senators.

  • Linda McQuack

    Who organized this, Jack layton and his communists?

    http://sites.google.com/site/thegospelaccordingto…

    • Jan

      Conbots of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your hackneyed cliches!!!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/novagardener novagardener

        Gees, just check out her surname!!

    • ahm

      Wow, your website is practically unreadable. Here's a design tip: spare the bold, italics, different colours for text, highlighted text, and multiple font size. It becomes easier to read.

  • Linda McQuack

    This afternoon brought out all the lefys
    the young
    the old,
    the peaceniks
    the socialists,
    the Nortel pensioners
    the very high paid dictatorialautoworkers,
    the environmentalists
    the electoral reformists
    frinds of bib Ladden ( the Canadian islamic Congress)
    Queers Against Israel
    The United Church of Canada
    The Toronto Star

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/frenchie101 frenchie101

    There were around 12,000 on Parliament Hill one time protesting the Gun Registry. There were a lot of other protests and they were a lot bigger than this fizzle show.

    So, if a fraction of that on Parliament Hill is enough for liberals to howl about changing an election result, then surely 12,000 must be enough for them to finally agree to flush that tyrannical, irrational and immoral waste of money?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/EmilyDee EmilyDee

      Ah yes, but the gun registry got scrapped didn't it?

    • kathryn c

      Oddly that story doesn't turn up on a google news search. The most recent seems to have been in 2003 and had 250-300 people. Link: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/01/02/gun_reg…

      Which brings up another great thing about Saturdays protests – nobody got arrested and nothing was set on fire! I can't think why these guys could not get their voices heard.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/frenchie101 frenchie101

        I dont either, the media were happy for the day as well.But I see no reason at all why their voices were not heard.I just think it was a lefty get together, and of no interest, except to the parties that went.Clicking that mouse is one thing, one girl had her two dogs join- for numbers.Boots on the ground is another

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

    You should see the turnout if they ever tried to take away your Lego.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/frenchie101 frenchie101

      Don't use it. I am sorry the number upset you.ROTF!

  • Peterb

    From this article in the Globe And Mail
    "A crowd of about 100 stood outside the legislature in Halifax"
    "In Edmonton, about 250 people"
    "In Montreal, hundreds also stood in a downtown public square"
    It is safe to assume that numbers are worse in other cities in Canada or they would report them.
    To think if anything these figures are inflated, what a dismal turnout for this big rally promoted by the partisan pundits in the media.
    Since the CBC took this demonstration on as a personal crusade with incessant publicity for the last few weeks, and yesterday running on screen messages inviting people to attend the prorogation demonstrations in their communities, must just demonstrate once again, that obviously nobody watches the CBC, and we should maybe begin a Face Book protest, that Canadian taxpayers are wasting a billion dollars a year subsidizing this broadcasting abortion. One thing you can be sure, after what Canadians saw on TV and read, these same pundits will not be able to convince Canadians this was a huge success and demonstration – it was a dismal flop. Three party leaders Ignatieff. Layton and May, at the rally in Ottawa as headliners and entertainment couldn't hold a thousand people there for the duration of the rally. Ignatieff will now have to go back to the drawing board, and follow through with his earlier promise in January "to investigate the conduct of our troops on the ground" in Afghanistan, who they have accused of being complicit in committing war crimes in Afghanistan because "they detained and handed over for torture a lot of innocent people". What is more, all Ignatieff and the Liberals have found, to this point in time for substantiation of their accusations of abuse, is some Taliban detainee being hit with a shoe, but their slurs and condemnations of our military continue.
    To end on something light, the CBC are reporting, would you believe, that in Calgary "a group of protesters gathered outside the prime minister’s constituency office" ( it was never clarified but it was reported that these were people actually waiting for a bus and not prorogation protesters) and the CBC didn't mention, that in vast majority of the cities across Canada, nobody but nobody showed up.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

      Feel better?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/frenchie101 frenchie101

      Amusing me to know end

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/EmilyDee EmilyDee

      There are videos and photos of the Calgary rally, and I believe it was about 250. That must be an awful big bus.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Wiseacre Wiseacre

      You did a bit of cherry-picking of the Globe and Mail article to come up with that one!
      Well, I did a bit of cherry-picking of my own and here’s what I came up with:
      • “In a display that was anything but apathetic, thousands of Canadians of varying political stripes clogged city streets across Canada demanding Prime Minister Stephen Harper reopen Parliament and get back to work”.
      • “Hordes of protesters crammed Toronto’s downtown square, cradling signs denouncing the Prime Minister’s decision to suspend Parliament until early March”.
      • “More than 3,000 people closed down a busy section of Yonge Street to sing, march and chant anti-Harper slogans”.

      • “Former Nova Scotia NDP leader Robert Chisholm was at a rally in Halifax, which attracted roughly 500”.

      • “Grassroots organizers in Vancouver passed out hand-painted signs and buttons to more than 600 people who bopped to the beat of a funk band playing next to the Olympic countdown clock before marching through the city”.

      • “Thousands also turned up on the lawn of Parliament Hill in Ottawa for a festive atmosphere."

      For interested posters, you can read the article, titled: “Thousands protest prorogued Parliament – Canadians across Canada joined rallies to vent their anger at Prime Minister's decision to shut down Parliament,” at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pror…

    • kathryn c

      "It is safe to assume that numbers are worse in other cities in Canada or they would report them. "

      No it isn't actually. There were rallies in all kinds of little spots across the country at places nobody cares much about. I know people who were out in Oshawa, Whitby, Oakville, Belleville, Lethbridge (Alberta!) and really I don't have that wide of an acquaintance.

      There is a list at noprorogue.ca

  • excanuck

    The report and the posts say it all. Only in Canada, a parliamentary democracy, would anybody, I mean anybody, turn out for a rally protesting a 5 week prorogation. Students, trendy oldies, fringe people like May groupies plus a few terribly sincere small l liberals exploiting their children were what I saw on TV, and not many of them. Go find a cause! CBC – you are rotten to the core. In fact, there is a cause for you – "WIND UP THE USELESS CBC"

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/EmilyDee EmilyDee

      I was at the one in Kingston and there were many families, and people from all age groups. Never saw any trendy oldies or May groupies.

    • http://laurelrusswurm.wordpress.com/ Laurel L. Russwurm

      It is gratifying to see that you are an excanuck;

      In MY country we have one of the most pitiful examples of "democracy" in the world. Many Canadians have given up in frustration… there is only so much beating your head against the wall most people can take.

      It is nice to see Canadians starting to stand up for ourselves. The nay-sayers and the ones who counsel futility are part of the problem. If you can't say something nice….

  • tenni

    I ask what else do you suggest that Canadians do if they disapprove of a man that they believe is abusing the power entrusted to him? It is our democracy. If we do not protest in rallies, then what? We can vote. Meanwhile, if you give Canadians disrespect and ridicule for standing up to a tyranical leader, then maybe violence? That would not be a good thing.
    McLeans
    Show some respect.

    • excanuck

      Tenni, you are way OTT.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/EmilyDee EmilyDee

    Senator Aaron Wherry. Dare you dream?

    Last year's protests were because Harper lied about the democracy of a coalition. This year's protests are quite different. Yes we hit the streets, but the CAPP site that is still growing, and is accomplishing something else. With more than 18,000 links to stories, his muzzle on the media has been snapped in two.

  • Steve M

    I read in Christina Blizzard's Sun column today that Bob Rae prorogued the Ontaro Legislature 3 times, and each time for longer than Harper. Can any Ontario people provide any more detail? This is the first I've ever heard of this, and Google hasn't been much help.

    Thanks,

    Steve M

    • excanuck

      You mean to say that Saint Robert Rae MP actually prorogued too? Shock Horror! One is distraught.

      • kathryn c

        One is sadly confused about the legitimate function of proroguing then.
        Mr Rae was not under subpoena to produce documents for a Parliamentary inquiry at the time and presumably had concluded all the business of that particular session.

        Really, this talking point is way past its best before date.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/frenchie101 frenchie101

      Rae’s NDP won power in Ontario on Sept. 6, 1990.

      On Dec. 19, 1991, Rae prorogued the House. They didn’t come back until April 6, 1992 (about 3 1/2 months).

      He then prorogued again, Dec. 10, 1992 — and didn’t come back until April 13, 1993 (roughly 4 months).!!

      By 1994, his government were running double-digit deficits and he’d doubled the debt.!!

      He prorogued for the third time on Dec. 9, 1994. The House did not sit again until the legislature was dissolved April 28, 1995 (almost 5 months).

      Rae didn’t even bring in a budget that year- he has no room to speak, and many Ontarians outside of Toronto know this.

From Macleans