Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The Khadr verdict

by Aaron Wherry on Friday, January 29, 2010 10:02am - 197 Comments

The Supreme Court has ruled that Omar Khadr’s rights have been violated, but that the Court will not, at this time, order the federal government to request his repatriation. The full ruling is here.

K is entitled to a remedy under s. 24(1) of the Charter.  The remedy sought by K — an order that Canada request his repatriation — is sufficiently connected to the Charter breach that occurred in 2003 and 2004 because of the continuing effect of this breach into the present and its possible effect on K’s ultimate trial.  While the government must have flexibility in deciding how its duties under the royal prerogative over foreign relations are discharged, the executive is not exempt from constitutional scrutiny.  Courts have the jurisdiction and the duty to determine whether a prerogative power asserted by the Crown exists; if so, whether its exercise infringes the Charter or other constitutional norms; and, where necessary, to give specific direction to the executive branch of the government.  Here, the trial judge misdirected himself in ordering the government to request K’s repatriation, in view of the constitutional responsibility of the executive to make decisions on matters of foreign affairs and the inconclusive state of the record.  The appropriate remedy in this case is to declare that K’s Charter rights were violated, leaving it to the government to decide how best to respond in light of current information, its responsibility over foreign affairs, and the Charter.

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  • Keith M

    Do not bring Khadr back to Canada, I don't trust our justice system to incarcerate him long enough. He should remain with the Americans and be tried by the Americans with an American sentence, whether it's a proper life sentence or the death penalty.

    I don't understand why anyone cares about this terrorist. I assume its just something to pin on Harper.

    • jd fox

      THANK YOU you are the only one to understand he went there and killed .

      • TrurGrit

        He was a teenager under the influence of his crazy dad. This has to be a huge mitigating circumstance in this case. How many 15 year old Westernised Canadians born kids have the guts to break from their family, much less a kid from a traditional Pakistani family? Some of the commenters on here are simply out for a blood lust revenge and can't seem to place things in a proper context. He's already done 9 years in prison. More time than some people get for killing multiple people while driving drunk. Bring him back to Canada in keep him in a mental facility until he works through all the issues he will have to work through.

        • Keith M

          How do you know he was under the influence of his dad? His dad was dead for several years at the time of his arrest, plenty of time to make a break or come back to Canada.

        • Keith M

          Mental facility, you got to be kidding. Here is a little hint, Omar belongs to Al-Qaida, he hates gays, he hates women and he especially hates liberal westerners, heck he hates conservative westerners as well. You know who they love, useful idiots, not mentioning any names here though.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

            How do you know all this? Without a trial, I mean.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/craigola craigola

      And so, if the Americans try him and don't convict him, you'll abide by the decision and stop calling him a terrorist? Somehow I doubt it.

    • Yachtscrew

      re your last point about anyone not caring about a terrorist: may I respectfully remind you that he IS NOT A TERRORIST.? …only A SUSPECTED terrorist until he gets a time in court.
      And lets be clear on another point. The CIA could be rightly accused of TERRORISM IN THE FIRST DEGREE for it's acknowledged involvement in various coups and assassinations around the world. Are we accepting the idea that MIGHT MAKES RIGHT?
      You first comment reveals you to be an anarchist in that you do not believe in our democratic rights through our Charter as a society. You clearly do not support our Canadian judicial system.
      Are you one of those American neocon imports who believes our only obligation in society is to make money and consume?

    • Dusty

      Right! He is allegeded to have committed crimes against Americans. He should be judged by their law. Who are we to interfere with due process in another country.

  • gar

    Every time i see this Khahr my blood boils.As a veteran who has seen 139 Canadians die at the hands of this guy and his relatives and hear the opposition in this country hollering about a detainee being tortured by his own people I could explode..An American Mother lost a son at the hands of this little bas..rd and for the doves in this country to demand he be returned here while everyday our young soldiers can lose their lives.American courts are not Nazi Germany his trial will be fair.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      Have you any contact with reality? Or barring that, facts?

      Even the American courts have said that the trial system in Guantenemo is a sham.
      There are reports that Khadr was found trapped underneath rubble in such a way that it would have been completely impossible for him to have thrown the grenade.

      They have confessions extracted out of a young teenager under extreme interrogation techniques. Because it's well known that nobody lies to get out of those situations.. oh wait..

      Save your outrage for where it's actually been shown that it's deserved.

    • jim

      Hey Gar….I couldn't agree more!!! His name and the word "Rights" should not be mentioned in the same sentence, unless it is to inform him that he gave his up..he has none..he deserves none.

    • Doye

      Here here. Let him rot in jail. He and his whole terrorist supporting family should be kicked out of Canada for good.

    • windigo

      Way to go Gar. As far as I'm concerned, this guy isn't a Canadian citizen anymore.He made his choice to go out there and shoot or bomb our guys (and girls) Even at 15, he knew damn well what he was going there for. There are too many bleeding hearts in this country. When you make a choice, you' ve got to accept the consequences, period.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

      An American Mother lost a son. A son who was fighting to preserve freedom, democracy, and rights. He should be honoured, and we should all be saddened by his mother's loss.

      And yet you would have us kick and spit on the things he was fighting for, and worse, use his name to do it. That is no way to honour this boy's memory, and it is no way to run a war, or a country.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

    I think that this ruling poses an interesting question to the elite of the right (less so for the uniformed bigots that often huddle up next to them). If one believes in individual rights and the government's requirement to respect them, then who other than the Supreme Court to arbitrate when those rights are in dispute? That court has now clearly stated that those rights were and still are being violated.

    It would seem now that any supporter of individual rights with intellectual honesty would want to see the government provide a remedy that is both effective and quick and not opt for strategic delay or half measures. Even if one disagrees with the particulars of this Supreme Court decision, having a country that respects the rights of the individual wrt the government requires a process and that process has now been completed. The Courts intrusion into foreign policy is an important issue but clearly secondary to our fundamental rights as individual citizens.

    • Mike T.

      It's always a bit of a sticking point for certain types that in a society governed by the rule of law, the only true protection from government interference comes from courts, which must interfere with elected officials.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sdh87 sdh87

      Dear Stewart

      Thank you for your representations from the voices of pseudo intellectuals. It would seem, if one has it correct, that one would want to enlist the support of "uniformed bigots" in order to more clearly provide a remedy fer to hep the Khadr family fer to gettin back their little Omar so's they kin fixn him right in the head so's he dont do any more killin 'n such, and kin spen the rest of hisn life a setting on the porch in Pigeon Holler a wishn for his pappy whos a livin in heaven a kissin his 72 virgins.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    And they just did. The Constitution says the SCOC can't tell Ottawa the specifics of how to deal with the "remedy" for the Charter violation in 2003.

  • wilson

    And the victim's rights?

    If found guilty, does the victim's family not have the right to remedy?
    If Khadr is found guilty, the victim had his right to 'life' taken from him.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      Those are rather large "if"s you've left hanging out there. And until they're answered, doesn't the presumption of innocence require we treat the person fairly? Or are you willing to suggest that being accused is enough for the gov't to trample over your rights?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

      wilson as I noted, I doubt if my question is really of much interest to you.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    I am saying the SCOC said that, because it is a matter of foreign policy, the federal government must figure out the remedy, not itself. That was after first reading. I have now completed a second reading, and guess what — that is PRECISELY where they spanked O'Reilly.

    So I respectfully bounce that suggestion back in your direction.

    • kcm

      Riddle me this. You argued above the charter has no jurisdiction outside the country. Then why is the SCoC stating K's rights were violated? These violations occurred outside of Canada. Either you or the court is mistaken…hmmm!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

      follow the bouncing verdict!

      respectfully myl, i think you have oversimplified – and as a result obscured – what the SCoC said. they established criteria in this specific case (i.e., the court not knowing what discussions Canada and the US have, are having or will have on the issue and their inability to predict the consequences of a more forcefull decision) that regarded as being sufficient to preclude specifying a remedy in this case. that does not preclude determining remedies in other matters of foreign policy.

      indeed, they went on to make clear that in other cases doing so is both legitimate and to be expected, even providing a specific example.

      [41] "…In some situations, courts may give specific directions to the executive branch of the government on matters touching foreign policy. For example, in Burns, the Court held that it would offend s. 7 to extradite a fugitive from Canada without seeking and obtaining assurances from the requesting state that the death penalty would not be imposed. The Court gave due weight to the fact that seeking and obtaining those assurances were matters of Canadian foreign relations. Nevertheless, it ordered that the government seek them.

      [42] The specific facts in Burns justified a more specific remedy. The fugitives were under the control of Canadian officials. It was clear that assurances would provide effective protection against the prospective Charter breaches: it was entirely within Canada’s power to protect the fugitives against possible execution. Moreover, the Court noted that no public purpose would be served by extradition without assurances that would not be substantially served by extradition with assurances, and that there was nothing to suggest that seeking such assurances would undermine Canada’s good relations with other states: Burns, at paras. 125 and 136.

      [43] The present case differs from Burns."

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

        Burns was IN CANADA. I don't know how to make it any more plain than that.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

          MYL, what you said to me was "I am saying the SCOC said that, because it is a matter of foreign policy, the federal government must figure out the remedy, not itself."

          You can't possibly be arguing that nothing that happens within Canada, has foreign affairs implications, are you?

          Burns, notwithstanding his geographical location within Canada, had foreign affairs implications.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

            Sigh. Have we gotten this far just because I failed to insert "when the Canadian in question is not in Canada"…?

            If so, I apologize for not stating what I thought everyone knew.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

            no need to apologize, but i was responding to what you wrote is all.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    The Courts intrusion into foreign policy is an important issue but clearly secondary to our fundamental rights as individual citizens.

    How soon we forget that the individual is not in Canada. That "foreign policy" thing cannot possibly be secondary here.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      Sorry, I want Canada to look out for Canadian citizens wherever they are.. especially when it comes to how they're treated by Canadian officials. We may not be able to control foreign governments, but we damn well can control our own officials. So yes, it is secondary.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

      So a Canadian outside Canada is not quite so Canadian. The Court said his rights were violated by the Canadian government. My point is that the Canadian government has to seek to remedy that violation. The fact that the individual is outside the country is certainly germane to the violation and remedy but I made no presumption of what action the Canadian government needed to take. I simply noted that for anyone who believed in primacy of individual rights one option would be to adopt the view that the remedy should be immediate or effective. (even if they disagreed with the particulars)

      The other option is to live in a state of denial as an intellectual hypocrite.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

        A Canadian outside Canada is Canadian. But don't try to suggest that the USA is somehow less of the USA just because they're incarcerating a Canadian.

        The remedy can be immediate AND effective: invade Guantanamo Bay and rescue him forthwith. The Yanks would never see the Canucks coming from our current garrison in Porte-au-Prince.

        Or the remedy could be more modest (and less violent) and more in keeping with the national interest than that. We the electorate may then judge whether the immediacy and the effectiveness are to our liking.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

          I didn't state that the US had any obligation to cooperate, of course they don't. But the government has an obligation and one that goes beyond simple politics. Freedom from government intervention into our private lives is a right that exists independent of our ability to move public opinion to our side and it is a right that exists between elections.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

    No, not at all. Let's skip your paraphrasing and go for the real quotes:

    [41] In some situations, courts may give specific directions to the executive branch of the government on matters touching foreign policy. For example, in Burns, the Court held that it would offend s. 7 to extradite a fugitive from Canada without seeking and obtaining assurances from the requesting state that the death penalty would not be imposed. The Court gave due weight to the fact that seeking and obtaining those assurances were matters of Canadian foreign relations. Nevertheless, it ordered that the government seek them.

    [

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    Well said, except for the last part, where we must differ. If the government of the day does not desire the job of cleaning up the previous administration's messes, it should not govern.

    And anyway, I do not see that here. This government has adopted a policy towards Khadr and how to deal with what came before it assumed power. I am cool with it. But if they start to whine about the mess the Liberals left them, they will lose points with me, big time.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

      "If the government of the day does not desire the job of cleaning up the previous administration's messes, it should not govern."

      Quite right.

      I was not presenting argument that government should take, it was more of rant from frustration with libs and their sanctimony. Khadr and Afghan torture are two great moral issues of our time and it is Libs who are on the wrong side of both but somehow the conservatives are bad guys.

  • Mike T.

    That was dealt with in the earlier cases. Where international law isn't being followed locally and Canadians are involved, the Charter may become applicable.

  • Non-partisan

    Stupid left-wing, activist, jurisdiction interfereing Supreme Court… oh wait a minute… we'd my conservative talking points go??

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    Then all I ask is that you re-read paragraph 44. That pretty clearly says that the SCOC feels out of place in matters of diplomacy. And they're right.

    So I shall ask again: If anyone can quote the text that says "We the SCOC reserve the right to come back later and demand that more be done," I'd appreciate it.

  • Ziggy

    Hang the rotten terroist bas**rd. As well send is terrorist family packing to. It's about time we ended this political correctness crap. For one just do what makes common sense.

    • Amateur Hour

      Most would be happy if the US or Canada simply prosecuted him under laws and processes accepted as valid.
      This is something you and your tub-thumping ilk seem unwilling to try.
      If we can try homegrown terrorists, mobsters and bikers … we can handle this one.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

      People keep wandering over from the Steyn planet. There must be an app for that.

      • kcm

        Mark's teleporting them over…but he's not telling them once they're over there's no way back.

    • ccbeach

      Hey Ziggy
      You are a helluva lot scarier than Omar Khadr. He was a kid, being shot at by
      Americans. Hang all of them, too

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

    Well, now the ball is in Harper's court – he's either a believer in human rights or he's not. He brags that he is – this will show whether he is or not.

    Can't have it both ways

    • kcm

      I suspect he'll find a way to. He nearly always does.

    • ccbeach

      Harper believes in Harper. Period.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

    Sorry.. it's not specifically there. I paraphrased based on the rest of the judgement, as you yourself did.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

    And while we're at it, why not just ditch all those funny turban wearing folks at the same time.. save a lot of trouble in the long run, right?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    I shall rephrase then. My appeal was poorly worded — sorry — I was not looking for those specific words. So: If anyone can quote the text that suggests "We the SCOC reserve the right to come back later and demand that more be done," I'd appreciate it.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    Take that to the SCOC. It sure isn't secondary in this case's judgment.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

    Pray tell where I agreed with the SCOC's ruling?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

      I never said you did. I suggested you take your argument to the SCOC, which implies that I figured you disagreed.

  • Mulletaur

    The confusion here appears to arise from what is under the control of the GoC and what is not. Khadr's rights were violated by Canadian officials acting outside of the physical borders of Canada, but within its legal jurisdiction. The SCOC would not have jurisdiction over what officials of other countries do or don't do regarding Canadian citizens. So, the Charter does apply outside of the physical borders of Canada, but only to the actions of the GoC, their agents and servants.

    • kcm

      That makes sense. But does that mean my charter rights [ how i loath that term] only apply outside of the country, only so far as my dealings with the GoC and their agents go…which would seem to make sense again. A CC shouldn't actually have carte blanch as far as rights go when abroad…although i do expect minimum standards to pertain, ie., Pof Inn..right to a fair trial and so forth.

      • Mulletaur

        "But does that mean my charter rights [ how i loath that term] only apply outside of the country, only so far as my dealings with the GoC and their agents go … "

        As far as the Supreme Court and remedies available under Canadian law go, yes. National law in the states concerned and international law are also available, just not the institutions of the Canadian state.

  • Don

    Do not return Omar Khadr to Canada. This piece of human garbage, with his venomous siblings, fanatical Muslim mother and a dead terrorist father, have no place in this country. His return to Canada must be vigorously opposed. Please have your staff dig up as much news and video footage of Omar Khadr's immediate family's manifest hatred of and poisonous rants against Canada. Remind and illustrate to decent Canadians how this family has repeatedly spit upon and derided the very country, Canada, which extended its hand of security, safe harbour and generosity to them. Illustrate, in detail, the cancerous rhetoric the matriarch of this little band of murderous, treasonous ingrates spews daily against the very country of which she and they, happily avail themselves of its resources. The SCOC has now washed its hands of the matter and now it falls on the shoulders of all Canadians and our governments, at all levels, to slam the door shut, once and for all, on Citizens of Convienience who commit murder. Our government has been elected in good faith by Canadian citizens. Now, they must acquit themselves of the burden of public office

    • Amateur Hour

      "Citizens of Convienience"

      While your vitriol may apply to other members of the Khadr clan, Omar was born in Canada, and is thus a citizen through and through, like it or not.

      "cancerous rhetoric". Modified noun. See Don's comment above for a prime example.

      • kcm

        Note how he reaches all those conclusions absent a fair trial…that's efficiency for ya! Actually i have no problem kicking his family out, if the law allows for it, and a reasnable process of inquiry takes place and reaches the same conclusions. But what Don wants is arbitrary treatment, and off the cuff populous justice.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

          Some people are just born into the wrong times. He'd have been great as part of one of those western "string 'em to the nearest tree" posses, wouldn't he?

    • Mike T.

      The great thing about this country is that short of hate speech, you can say all sorts of vile absurd things, even about the country itself. Thw wrongdoings of Khadr and his family will hopefully someday be redressed in a fair trial, but they won't include saying mean things you don't like.

    • ccbeach

      I suspect you voted for Harper, and will again. Idiot.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/craigola craigola

      Every time you insist that a Canadian citizen is not entitled to his or her rights as a Canadian citizen, you "spit upon and deride the very country, Canada, which extends its hand of security, safe harbour and generosity" to you and all Canadians.

  • drew

    I would have some sympathy for Omar if at any time, before he got himself into this mess, he or his family had shown some appreciation for Canada. The freedoms and opportunities extended to them here they used only to propogate hate against their adoptive country and the values it and we hold sacred.
    To the best of my knowledge Canada had no hand in the circumstances that led to his actions and their consequences. None of this took place in Canada. The fact that he seems to hold a Canadian passport of convenience presents a moral delema for our government, that's obvious. However I hope they continue to use some discretion here and let the US legal process look after the issue, after all the Obama administration is hardly some third world dictatorship.

    • TrueGrit

      Let's hope that you were never judged by the actions of your family and friends. I agree that his family are a bunch of c u next Tuesdays, but he was only a kid when this happened. In enligtened socities such as ours, we take things like this into account. Were you strong enough at 14 or 15 to tell your dad to get stuffed?

      • drew

        Your point is well taken and certainly has merit. I have to say that at 14 or 15 I do not remember myself, or anyone else, not being held responsible for their actions to some degree. Keep in mind that the US court system also makes allowences for indictable acts committed by youth as verses adults. It was an American he is accused of killing and the act he is charged with happened outside of Canada. Why should we be so self rightious as to presume that only we can deliver justice here?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

          "Keep in mind that the US court system also makes allowences for indictable acts committed by youth as verses adults"

          Too bad for Khadr, then, that he wasn't being held in a place subject to the US court system. No, they had/have him under military justice only, which takes into account the age of the combatant very little, if at all. It also appears to be silent on little things like torturing the detainees, etc., While the US court system may be perfectly acceptable to our idea of due process and a fair trial, that is irrelevent to the situation at hand.

      • drew

        My family immigrated to Canada also but they never did anything but work hard and show appreciation for their good fortune to be given the opportunity at a new life. To do harm to this country or to ask any family member to do so was a thought too horrible to contimplate. If I had been asked by my father to commit acts of terrorism I would have declined and done all in my powere to convince him of its folly. But this is a hypothetical question so not entirely valid.
        As to being judged for actions done at the age of 14 or 15, of course we are. Its called youth court and if the crime is serious enough the prosecution can ask for it to be raised to adult court.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

      That's the beauty of this country. You can hate it AND expect the benefits of citizenship (see Québécois, Bloc).

      What you should not expect is that Mommy Maple Leaf will come and kiss the boo-boo and make everything better no matter where you are on earth. Whether or not you or your family members hate your country.

      The SCOC has said that Canadian government officials blew it when they attempted to gather intelligence from a Canadian citizen for an ally, because the fruits of that interrogation were knowingly obtained after the US did things the SCOC didn't like, and because the results of that intel are (maybe the only thing — debatable but let's play along) helping keep Omar locked up. But the remedy lies within the realm of international diplomacy, so the Court has wisely not taken on the responsibility of insisting on the remedy.

  • J.S. Soares

    At last somebody has hit the nail on the head and it is about time that we all view such terrorist activities with disdain. Nobody gets arrested or locked up in any civilized country for no good reason and suggestions and comments in favour of terrorists do not help our country in any way. Most os us are immigrants and it is our duty to defend our new home and country and not encourage any form of terrorism out of pity for an individual or a family who have involved themselves in questionable activities.When we migrated to Canada we decided to make Canada our home and our country and it is therefore our duty to protect our homeland in every possible way. We have absolutely no reason to even voice a negative opinion in favour of anyone who even attempts to indulge in any questionable activities which adversely affect our country or any other country

    • kcm

      It may have escaped your attention, but this "is' a democracy…dissent is not illegal…yet anyway!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

      "Nobody gets arrested or locked up in any civilized country for no good reason"

      How I wish that were true, that we could somehow be 100% accurate that the people we charge with a crime actually did the crime. Sadly, that isn't the case, and there are tons of examples to prove it.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

    He hasn't even been tried in a court – kangaroo or otherwise – and you've already convicted him?

    You law and order Conservative types tend to forget the "law" part of the equation, and part of that is innocent til proven guilty.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

    When he's put before a proper court of law and not a show tribunal, I'll be more trusting of the US – Obama or no Obama. He was a child soldier at the time and should be also looked at in that context.

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