Another country

by Andrew Coyne on Thursday, February 4, 2010 6:17pm - 231 Comments

Ever since Danny Williams was revealed to have been seeking treatment for a heart ailment across the border, the media have been observing a strange and uncomfortable silence about the matter.

On one hand, this reticence is commendable. Williams’s preference in health care is nobody’s business, and should remain, as far as possible, a private matter between him and his God. Though some claim this is a lifestyle choice, it’s far more likely that it is a result of something beyond his control. As such, it is not a fit matter for public commentary.

But once the story has, by one means or another, entered the public domain, that puts a different colour on it. At that point, the media are not just declining to report on something: they are actively colluding in a fiction. The issue is no longer Williams’s medical inclination. It’s the media’s refusal to acknowledge reality.

It’s not as if this were twenty or thirty years ago, when the mere knowledge that someone had a preference for American health care might have been enough to end his political career, or to bring social censure and humiliation upon him. In this more enlightened age, most people are more likely to react with a yawn. It is no longer unusual to see people who openly “go south,” from captains of industry to sports stars. Many Canadians have discovered they know someone like that — perhaps even a member of their own family. All that we are accomplishing by suppressing discussion of Williams’s case is to suggest that there is something embarrassing or shameful about it. Far from erasing a stigma, we are reinforcing it.

I’m not suggesting we should go around unmasking politicians who use American health care, but who prefer not to discuss it. But this taboo on reporting things that are already public knowledge is contrary to our natural urges as a profession, and as such strikes me as unhealthy.

SIGH: For readers who are puzzled by the first paragraph, Rob Silver’s comment below is well worth reading.

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  • http://www.TennisVagabond.com Big Dave S

    Funny. RUn with this.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

    This silence of which you speak ….. I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      I wasn't aware of any silence, given the coverage it has already received. Google News shows 99 related articles, and it attracted a fair amount of interest on blogs.

      How much national media attention does a story like this one really deserve?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    I wasn't aware of any silence, given the coverage it has already received. Google News shows 99 related articles, and it attracted a fair amount of interest on blogs.

    How much national media attention does a story like this one really deserve?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      99 is not much. There has been more reporting in the US than here, as far as I've seen.

      The word "prorogue" gets 1730 hits.
      "ignatieff child care" gets 190.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      I wouldn't call it silence, but I agree with Andrew that coverage has been very light. There has been very few details, nor has there been any insight into the issue. I think the media, who largely favour socialized medicine, would rather write the millionth story about prorogue.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

        He was being gently satirical here. Unlike a lot of other Canadian pundits, when Coyne writes something as absurd as "the media have been observing a strange and uncomfortable silence about the matter", it's usually intentional.

        • Lord Kitchener's Own

          This one was too subtle though for an online text presentation I think. Like you, I thought he was being serious as well, and I don't think that's an indictment of my sense of humour.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

            we need to devise a form of textual cunning grin or literary wink and a smile that Coyne can use to tip of the reader when he wants to employ his repartee.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

            I've said before, he needs to use the tags. However, since he was serious in this instance, maybe he is.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            Yeah, it was too oblique and blandly presented to be great satire. I don't think it's clear that the use of American health care has a huge stigma attached to it these days, or that it's all so much worse than it was in the past. Really, it's just that the blogosphere has amplified coverage of such stories.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            Granted, it doesn't have the stigma it once did, but the fact is that people still look askance at someone who uses American health care. Particularly on sports teams, I'm told, when a teenager discovers they have an inclination toward the American health system they often feel compelled to keep it to themselves for fear of mockery.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

            It's a personal lifestyle choice, really. Thank goodness most Canadians no longer see someone's inclination toward American health care as immorality or deviancy.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

            Sorry but here in Universal-loving health care country — the OHIP belt – we believe leaving Canada for treatment is an affront to real Canadian values.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            Indeed – after all it is only one's actions, not one's inclinations, for which one is responsible.
            And just because someone wants to use American health care, doesn't mean they have to do so. There many who, much as they would prefer to go south, instead stay with the Canadian system out of a sense of principle.

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        Yesterday's top headline on the top of the front page of the Toronto Star: DANNY MILLIONS HEADS SOUTH.

        There was nothing on the front page about prorogation.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

          C'mon guys …. it is just alright … but maybe more apparent and appealing to a
          Maritime sensibility than to that of dull,staid Calgary … oops!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Inkless Inkless

          Did the Star print a special section? No, right?
          They're burying this.

          • Reader

            Paul Wells Joke FAIL !
            Three part series begins Saturday.

      • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

        Sort of like the daily revelations about the imploding of the IPCC (the latest is India pulling out altogether) Michael Mann's investigation, and the continuing fallout from climategate,

        all of which recieves a near media blackout.

        Forbidden to be covered, as not part of the correct meme.

        • Lord Kitchener's Own

          Again, top front page headline of yesterday's Toronto Star: DANNY MILLIONS HEADS SOUTH. It made the front page of the National Post as well, and was the number 1 story on the websites of CBC News, CTV News, the Globe and Mail, the National Post and the Toronto Star at one time or another yesterday.

          Current Google News results for the search <"danny williams" and surgery>, limiting the search to just stories from the last day: 803 hits.

          I know some people are being satirical and I've missed the nuance online, but I have a feeling you're being serious, 'cause you're biff. If making the front page of two of the nation's three largest newspapers, and spending most of yesterday as the number one story on the websites of our five biggest news outlets is a "media blackout", just what type of coverage were you expecting?

          • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

            Except you've provided no examples of media coverage on MY POINT.

            You haven't because you can't.

            That is, my point vis. climate fallout recieving a media blackout, is absolutely correct. A few articles from the British press, and a smattering here and there. Otherwise nothing, except on the (mostly conservative) blogs, in which case its everywhere, and detailed laden.

            Of course the details are startling and continue to cast so much doubt that it's near impossible to give AGW much credibitily – which is precisely why the MSM has dutifully avoided reporting on it.

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            Well, I don't entirely agree with your characterizations, but even if I did, the point your were making was that the Danny Williams is "like" that. Even if I agree that there's been a conspiracy of silence wrt climate change skepticism, how is this surgery story "like" that?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

            No, he's angry that a story about a Canadian celebrity/Premier is outnewsing a story about leaked emails from a bunch of scientists, emails which prove nothing more than said scientists are as nasty and immature as everyone else. In England. Last month.

      • Jan

        I didn't know the media had a collective position on healthcare.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

      It came as a surprise to me too ….. I mean that Mr. Coyne is showing signs of an
      evolving, if still ephemeral, sense of humour. Look hard. You'll see it.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

        I see it now. Man, that's dry.

        I think the story received about as much media attention as it warranted. I don't think it was over-covered or under-covered.

  • James Connors

    Danny Williams, that's one thing.

    Here is another dirty little secret. I have relatives in the States. For the longest time my father served as a surrogate pharmacy for his sister and her husband in Washington State because they simply could not afford the prices there.

    If there is to be a debate on the issue of health care, I'm relatively certain Tommy Douglas will still win it.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      I disagree. We would not have as many drugs if it were not for the ability for pharma companies to recoup their costs. There's a reason all the drug discoveries happen in the same country these days.

      • James Connors

        Really? More drugs is the answer?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Dain_Commission

        I'm glad we all agree.

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        There's a reason all the drug discoveries happen in the same country these days.

        Yes, but isn't that the same reason that there are nine different pharmaceutical drugs used for treating "Restless Legs Syndrome"?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

          I see, so you're saying that there should be only one drug for anything. One cancer drug. One heart drug. And one restless legs syndrome drug (even though there is no cure the syndrome). Strangely, I see 100 treatments for a cold in the pharmacy, but I never thought of that as a bad thing.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

            Actually, that there are 100 treatments for the cold is a stunning indictment that none of them are superior to each other (or to nothing at all).

          • Andrew (not Potter or Coyne)

            I believe you find those in the placebo section of the drug store.

        • tobyornottoby

          I read the other day that a connection has been found between restless leg sydrome and erectile dysfunction so there may be more drug resources on the way. Also restless wife syndrome.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

        Pfizer Global earned 20 billion United States Dollars in 2006 and $8 billion in 2008 during an economic meltdown. Your overarching point has merit – but to assume that the pricing scheme in the United States is in balance and other countries who are more restrictive is wrong is unfounded.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/CTM Claudia Lemire

    I have nothing but the biggest thumbs up for our health care system, I was in need of it a while back, and they were amazing, perhaps a little bit of a waiting period but I got the best treatment…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/novagardener novagardener

      I too received the best of care. I'm a Stage IV cancer survivor. When I was diagnosed 7 years ago, I was operated on within 2 weeks. I just had a PET/CT scan the other day, within 2 weeks of my Onc. requesting it. I have belonged to an ACOR website since I was first diagnosed. From what many posters in the US have said on ACOR, I'm glad that I live in Canada. I've gone through 2 rounds of chemo over the years and would never trade our system for that of the US. Thankfully, and I don't know why, my Onc. told me the other day she expects me to around for some time. She was ready to send me to see a world renowned Dr. in Quebec City (yes on my dime re travel, etc.) . It might happen eventually, but not now. :-)

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/CTM Claudia Lemire

        Novagardener, best of luck , I hope you are doing great!

        My son got H1N1 in Washington DC, thankfully he is great now…but will be paying for that bill for the rest of our lives…not quite, but they were horrible, even with private insurance!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

          yeah very good to hear Nova!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

      agreed. as a individual with a relatively benign but nonetheless at times painful chronic condition (psoriatic arthritis) I am incredibly thankful for our system and that it has allowed me to get truly great care without having to contemplate severely sacrificing my quality of life by choosing between excellent care or financial stability.

  • Lord Kitchener's Own

    This post does strike me as having a bit of a "why is no one talking about the thing that everyone's talking about" vibe to it.

    I'd be more convinced that "the media have been observing a strange and uncomfortable silence about the matter" if it weren't for the literally dozens and dozens of stories I've seen in the media about the matter. Even now it's the number two story on the G&M website (until just recently it was number one with a full colour picture of the Premier). It's also a top story at the National Post (#2), the Toronto Star (#4, but there's big pic of a Mississauga arson suspect ), CBC.ca (#2) CTV.ca (#2 with a pic).

    This is the #2 story on the websites of 4 of the country's top 5 news organizations. Were you hoping for an on camera interview with Williams about his procedure? An Interview with the doctor? Videotape of the surgery?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/john_g2708 john g

      Agreed…I thought he was being serious too but it doesn't square with the coverage that its getting.

      Ordinarily I would agree that a person's health care is his own private business…but when you are a provincial premier who is on the public record criticizing Stephen Harper for what he might do to Tommy Douglas' wonderful public health care system, and accountable for the performance of your own provincial system, I'm sorry but I think you have to sacrifice some of that privacy if you want to get your healthcare somewhere else.

      I'm perfectly willing to believe that Williams could not be treated in Newfoundland…but I think he owes it to Newfoundlanders to offer some proof that he really needed to get treatment down south.

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        I think he owes it to Newfoundlanders to offer some proof that he really needed to get treatment down south.

        I certainly take your point, and it's a valid position to take, but I still think that it's none of anybody else's God d@mned business.

        • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

          Our excellent, superior system in Canada (I'm physically holding my nose up in the air as I type this for added condescention and narcissism effect),

          allows me to spend ten thousand dollars on booze or gambling, or just buying ten grand worth of bubble gum,

          But makes it a crime to pay a doctor ten thousand dollars to have my poor suffering mother have her hip replaced (we must, after all, suffer equally together, it is the only Canadian thing to do).

          So we fly to the US, going to the "inferior" system.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/G0D God

            Also, I have no idea how Andrew Coyne thinks that the media is ignoring this issue. I have heard nothing but Danny Williams on the news for the last 4 days.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            The health system here forbids us from paying for it. Hence, rich people like Danny skirt that issue by flying south. The rest of us languish, unable to hop on a jet plane. Some of us are more equal than others.

  • http://www.yourideahere.wordpress.com Karen Krisfalusi

    Hey, do Maclean’s employees use the services of Scienta Health? That company is more American than Canadian. There. I’ve put this matter in the public domain. End the silence!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

    There's something wrong about the fact that you have to get on a plane to get the best care in the world. Our supposedly egalitarian system is the most inegalitarian of them all. For the best treatment you must be able to afford international travel.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

      Yes, because the fact that one Canadian went to the US for an unspecified procedure totally proves your sweeping indictment of Canada's entire medical system.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/CTM Claudia Lemire

        You know, this is not a canadian issue, people from all over the world travel to different parts of the world for treatment, where they can find the right specialists or hospitals…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

      I had a comment on this some time back … if I can find the articles again I'll link them …
      but basically they point out that in California (roughly similar population to Canada) more
      people seek medical care in Mexico than Canadians do in the US.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

        That would be the Mexicans.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

          Nope. Most of them were people seeking cheaper surgery or alternative therapies not approved
          in the US. Most illegals avoid the health care system for obvious reasons. Naturalized Mexicans
          with insurance have no reason to go to Mexico. Illegals don't go back for health care. If absolutely
          necessary they go to the local ER and take a chance on being sent back.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            The study included dental work and prescription drug purchases. Therefore your comparison is meaningless.

            "dental care was the most common service obtained by immigrants"

            Secondly, like I said before, half the migrants are Mexicans living in California.

            And thirdly, "•Immigrants who travel to Mexico for health services are not necessarily the poorest. One explanation: The cost of travel may offset any financial savings, creating a disincentive for the very poor to travel"

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/PhilCP PhilCP

        I believe this Krugman column gets you to two studies, one of them being the one you are thinking about….

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

          I think you might be right. Thanks for that.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

      Actually, s_c_f, for the best treatment you can often take a subway or a bus. Unless you count having to go through Greektown and Chinatown as international travel, your "fact" is actually an opinion, one not backed up by facts.

      There are a few cardiac procedures done in the states we don't do here, mostly because we don't have the population base to build up the level of experience needed for rare cases. Most provinces will quite happily, with prior approval, allow you to go south for these procedures, and pay for them when needed. But since we don't know what Danny is up to, making a judgment on a whole system based upon partial information of a single case is unwise.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

        I see, so you need more than 30 million people to get rare cases. Malarkey.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

          Okay. Here's some medical stuff. Why is it that, in a country the size of Canada, there are only two hospitals that do a particular type of organ transplant?

          Why? Because in an average year, they might do 10 or 20. Or, you can have 30 hospitals that do it, and do maybe one a year. Would you prefer a guy operating on you to have almost no experience, or a lot? That's what i'm talking about.

          Not sure why you're mentioning american medical tourists…

    • Two Hats

      "There's something wrong about the fact that you have to get on a plane to get the best care in the world."

      Why? If you live in Newfoundland, population 600 000 or so, wouldn't you expect to need to leave the island for some kinds of care? People in Ontario are flown around the province all the time for care, even routine care. And if you need advanced or specialised care, that's likely to be best provided in only a few centres around the continent — maybe it's in Ottawa, or Edmonton, but if it's in Boston, or Pheonix (or if a US centre is closer by than the nearest Canadian one) I don't see the problem in crossing the border. (In fact, it's stupid that people are flown from NW Ontario to Toronto when their care needs could be met by out-of-province hospitals much, much closer by in Manitoba or the US. But that's another story.)

      Anyway, we don't know why Williams left. If it was simple queue jumping it's a little hypocritical, but it's an option available to anyone with the money, and we might debate that. But if it was because the hospitals in St John's can't provide the necessary treatment it shouldn't be an issue at all. (And it's no shame to St John's hospitals, either, depending on the treatment needed, considering the relatively small populations they serve.)

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

        I see. So if you get the same condition, you'll be perfectly capable of handing over the 5 grand in plane fare, and the 30 grand for the operation, as well as whatever additional expenses are incurred. In fact, every one of us Canadians, including the guy living in the box on the street corner, will be perfectly capable of hopping on the plane to the US. OK.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

      "There's something wrong about the fact that you have to get on a plane to get the best care in the world"

      CORRECTION:
      There's something wrong about the fact that you have to get on a plane to get the best care in the world THAT MONEY CAN BUY.

      scf, if you don't have the money TO BUY IT, it is the WORSE care in the world.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

        Yes, well, if you can't get the care at all, I'd say that's even worse.

        Instead of a system favouring the rich, we have a system that is crappy for everyone, and the rich using the system of a foreign country.

        All you people are so blind.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

          Crappy for everyone?

          The singularly dumbest thing you've ever typed. Indefensible.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

            So, you think being ranked #30 in the world, in a country with a GDP per capita that is #12 in the world, is not crappy. Idiot.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

            Best part about that survey? The U.S is ranked #37.

            Wakka wakka wakka….

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            And you think that's a good thing? Race to the bottom? Wonderful.

            Like I said, the primary reason the US ranked that low is because the ranking places a premium on universal coverage.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

            They are denied access. Not for emergency care, but for other conditions, they absolutely are denied access.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            Same as Canada.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            Exactly what I said – all essential treatments are provided, all you need to do is go to the ER. And of course, Canadians with no doctor are also denied access, as well as Canadians trying to get access to MRIs and any number of other services.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

          "Yes, well, if you can't get the care at all, I'd say that's even worse."

          Can't get care at all? scf, silence as opposed to ignorant statements is also an option, you know?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            Silence? The ignoramus is you, and you wish to remain ignorant, so be it.

            People in Canada routinely walk out of ERs and clinics without treatment because the wait is so long. People in Canada routinely go long periods without care, which can extend into years, because of the waits. You're the ignorant one, if you don't even realize that, because it's nothing new, it's been that way for many years now, and it continues to worsen, every day.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

            You say stuff like "people in Canada routinely….." as if it's a fact. Is this personal observation? What people? Four people you know who routinely do this? My friends? My family? Behavioural analysis? Statistical data?

            See, you can't base a factual argument on stuff that ain't facts. I'm still waiting for the backup to your "crappy for everyone" statement.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            The extreme shortage of pretty well everything medical in Canada has been well documented, whether it's hospital beds, doctors, diagnostic machines, access to specialists, you name it. Denying this is like denying that the sky is blue. If you've ever been to an ER you know the average wait time is hours, and if you haven't it's common knowledge: http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/05/03/…
            The shortage of diagnostics and doctors is in the news all the time as well.
            Are you living under a rock?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            "Routine cases require an average of 4.6 hours, and many busy hospitals leave patients cooling their heels for much longer periods of time"

            "In Toronto, emergency room waits for minor conditions range from five to six hours and for serious conditions from 11 to 22 hours"

            This story is the same across Canada.

        • Jan

          I haven't heard any complaints about cardiac care in Canada. Maybe you could enlighten us as to the problems.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jenn_ Jenn_

      Our health care may not be the very best of the very best in the world, but we're up there. And the thing is you *don't* have to get on a plane. You have chosen to, and that's on you. You are welcome to do so, and as this particular issue shows, most people are willing to not comment on your personal decision. (Even if you are directly responsible for the care available, which I do think is a tiny bit over the top.) Or would you rather pay all that much more for other people's health care, and include your own? I'm sure other Newfoundlanders would have been thrilled if Danny had tried that!

      But no, apparently you are willing to watch your province-mates in preventable pain or dying, while you jet off to healthier climes. Nice neighbour!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

      I don't have to get on a plane — I just have to get in a taxi or on the subway. Most of it's right over there on Unviersity Avenue.

      And if you think someone living in Billings, Montana doesn't have to get on a plane to get the "best" treatment, think again.

  • Dot

    In related news, the New England Confectionery Company has announced a special edition run of Sweethearts candies for the NL Valentines season.

    Replacing "Fax Me" will be "Text Me" , replacing "ABC" will be "XOX", and replacing "Triage Me" will be "Tier Me".

    "Club Me", however, will still remain a favourite, and will not be replaced with "Pie Me", contrary to widespread media speculation.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

      For the truly frisky there is Rogue Me Like A Pro !

  • Rob Silver

    What makes the “Danny Williams” story particularly interesting is that it was someone from his own team that let the info of his affinity for American healthcare slip, and then it was quickly ignored by the media (as opposed to an opposition member of parliament or a reporter playing gotcha). Have also been surprised that bloggers (for the most part) have joined in on the conspiracy of silence about Danny’s love of American healthcare. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    • Dot

      Now that the surgery has been completed, and he is in recovery, the floodgates I suspect will soon open further.

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      Are you being satirical too?

      Again, this has to be the loudest conspiracy of silence in the history of silent conspiracies. The story's still in the top five stories of every major news outlet's webpage, and I know it was number one on the Globe site for a good long while yesterday, with a big colour photo of the Premier front and center. It also made the front page of the print edition of the National Post on Wednesday, and "Danny Millions Heads South" was the TOP HEADLINE on the front page of the print edition of the Toronto Star.

      If you're not being tongue in cheek, did you expect our news outlets to one by one phone each person in the country and inform them about this story personally?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/andrewcoyne Andrew Coyne

      Exactly, Rob. After all, it's not as if Danny's preference was a big secret. He's been quite open about it.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/jamesx jamesx

        Reading Mr. Coyne's post, I can't help but draw a parallel to the recent outing of Minister Baird on CBC radio by the P.C. candidate in Toronto Centre.
        _____
        "But once the story has, by one means or another, entered the public domain, that puts a different colour on it. At that point, the media are not just declining to report on something: they are actively colluding in a fiction."

        "All that we are accomplishing by suppressing discussion of Williams’s case is to suggest that there is something embarrassing or shameful about it. Far from erasing a stigma, we are reinforcing it."

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/andrewcoyne Andrew Coyne

          Dunno. Seems a bit of a stretch.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/G0D God

            BRILLIANT!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

        Rob, next time, remember your audience, and engage the "type in red" sarcasm filter. Save a lot of hassle…

      • Stephen Taylor

        Let's just say this. The difference between American reporting and Canadian reporting is that the health of public figures seems to be a reportable and it is somewhat shocking that it is.

        In Canada, we've stayed away from such reporting because it's a smaller circle of folks that live and work together. We've all got health issues and perhaps we realize that we're all real people at the end of the day.

        The hush over one's choice in healthcare delivery isn't a suppressed stigma, it's a realization that not everything is in the public interest.

        If you choose Canadian healthcare, it's not as if this is news, but it still wouldn't be kosher to name your attending physician and a list of what ails you. The same thing applies for those that prefer to go down South, it's nobody else's business.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

        The man has a heart condition and needs surgery, and you expect him to rush to the microphones first?

        And, I don't know anymore if I should be snarky here. Does a double-inward reverse form of snark with a half-pike still count as snark, or has it all washed out and now we're being serious again?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

          Hoping for some answers from the believers to these questions:

          If you think it's ok for someone to jump the queue, then why are you forcing him to hop on a plane to do it? Is the plane ride the penalty fare? Is the fact that you go under the knife so far from home your penance? To get visits from friends you need to pay for their flights as well? Do queue jumpers owe a fee to Air Canada? Queue jumping is OK if it is twice as expensive as it needs to be?

          Especially:
          Why is it legal for Danny to fly down there, but it's illegal for Danny to fly the doctor up here?

          • Lord Kitchener's Own

            Why is it legal for Danny to fly down there, but it's illegal for Danny to fly the doctor up here?

            As above s_c_f, I think you need to be careful here. There are doubtless many Canadians who would agree that this scenario makes no sense… and that we need to figure out a way to make it illegal for Danny to fly down there for this purpose.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

        It was my understanding that Williams headed south to have the procedure done on the advice of his physicians.

        On that note, while his preferences for private care or US care or whatever non-Tommy-Douglas-inspired medicare may be reportable, trying to make his heart surgery some kind of metonym for a strong distrust in public care on his part just doesn't make a whole lot of sense at this point, because it ignores any medical factors that may have played into the decision.

      • Andre

        If what you're saying is true about the circumstances being out of Williams' control, then the real story (from a socialist's stand point at least) would be why the surgery couldn't be done in Canada.

        Could it be that the goal of having William's staffer release information of William's clandestine operation is create media outrage over our inadequate healthcare system.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        He's probably not the first Canadian politican either. I've heard rumours that Trudeau went for care on either side of the border.

    • Mark

      Rob – you are suggesting that "his own team" and the "media" are two different things.
      You should probably spend more time reading Newfoundland media.

    • wsam

      I have visited a hospital in Florida that had valet parking. it was great. Seriously. The nicest hospital I've ever been in, however, was in Mumbai, in India. You were treated like a king.

      A lot of wealthy people in Canada get pissed off because in other countries, as a wealthy person, they get preferential treatment. In Canada, in contrast, you have to wait in emerg alongisde taxi drivers and high school teachers and other middle class people like journalists. Many of them are dressed incredible badly. The unfortunate fact is that many middle class Canadians dress as if they are Soviet-era Russians who are pretending to be Americans.

      Canada needs to learn how to treat it's rich people better.

      • Jan

        Perhaps a dress code for emergency visits…

    • http://labradore.blogspot.com WJM

      Did a media scan on a library compooter this evening.

      In all of January, the infobase in question came up with about 250 stories that mentioned "Danny Williams" or "Premier Williams".

      In the past five days alone, it came up with nearly 800.

      If the media are ignoring it, they are doing it wrong.

  • Kev

    Congratulations Danny Williams on your successful penis enhancement surgery.

    • Jan

      They did say it was cardiovascular.

  • http://www.yourideahere.wordpress.com Karen Krisfalusi

    I got hungry waiting in line so I ate all my SWEETHEARTS. I ate my “Tweetheart”s first. Then I ate all my “Tiers”. Then I ate my stale “Be Mine”s and when I was near the front of the que I ate my “I’m Fine”s and went home.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    "… contrary to our natural urges as a profession, and as such strikes me as unhealthy."

    SODLMFAO (slumped over the desk laughing etc.)

    This is the best piece I've ever seen on Macleans. <<< wipes away tears…. gasps for breath >>>

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      OK, I admit, THAT line should have clued me in.

      LOL

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        Personally, I think that Those Who Go South for medical care should be allowed to marry, or at least enter into civil unions. This is no longer the era of 20 or 30 years ago when such things could have ended a person's career.

        Seriously, you weren't sure until the final line?

        • Lord Kitchener's Own

          I guess I'm too used to dueling with fellow commenters, and I'd forgotten that Mr. Coyne is both sane and rational. The fact that other intelligent commenters like CR also thought he was serious gives me comfort. And it's not like we were wrong to think there are Canadians who would seriously think this way. Look at how many comments there are here saying "Yeah, Coyne's right!!! Why is the socialist MSM burying this story??? I guess it doesn't fit into their "communism is great!" meme. MAN THE BARRICADES!!!"

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            Yes, I admit the comments were almost as funny as the original piece. Almost. I was laughing so hard I started to cry. Or maybe it was the other way round.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            You're not correct about the piece.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/andrewcoyne Andrew Coyne

            Stop, you're killing me!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            If confusing your readers is the goal, then you have succeeded.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

            Well, if people want to Go South together, who am I to stop them? I do insist though, that the government not ratify this sort of behavior by licensing it at citizens' expense. It may not be my business what Williams does in the privacy of his own clinic, but that doesn't mean I should have to publicly approve of it!

            Also, I think there is a disturbing trend in the "Go South" movement of trying to silence opponents in this debate by labeling them "Southophobes".

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

    …as long as you're fully insured.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

      or are wealthy.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

      Incorrect, friend, and I know this from personal experience. If you need treatment, they treat you. They sort out the insurance problem later.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

        Hmm. So the whole transplant thing I have would be fully funded up front, and I could just pay later? Cuz I like, really NEEDED treatment.

        That's funny, because my surgeon was a recent U.S. émigré, and said he was enjoying working in a system where his patients didn't need to submit a payment plan for anti-rejection meds before the hospital board would approve a transplant. Guess he was just lying to me, then.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

          Let me clarify: if you need treatment immediately, they treat you and sort out the payment issues later.

          In my case, while an undergrad I once had to be rushed to hospital by a friend. Being Canadian I had no US insurance plan, but I did have a travel plan…however no one knew about this except me and my family – my friends taking me in did not. The hospital asked for insurance, was told that I didn't seem to have any, and then treated me. We sorted the whole thing out when I recovered later on.

          Interestingly enough I had the opposite experience in Canada later on. I was accompanying a fellow Canadian to hospital for emergency treatment (she was in labour). There was a problem with her health card – it was out of date and the new one had not arrived yet. The hospital refused to provide treatment unless she could either pay up front or provide the new health card info. In the end, while she was in hard labour, we were able to get the new health code over the phone from someone at Health Canada and go ahead with the birth…otherwise she'd have had to pay approx $10K up front.

          I kid you not. This chest-beating about what a great system we have compared to the soulless Americans makes me laugh every time.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

        Yes, but the "sort it out later" is putting you into receivership if you aren't insured!

  • hankee

    Danny's a brave fellow. How many people do you know that go to Cleveland this time of year; especially when they don't need to?

  • Jack

    In some provinces if services are not available there and you go through the right hoops (board review) they will send you to the US and pay the cost of treatment and the flights, the patient still has to pay for room and food.

  • dave

    There's something wrong about the fact that you have to get on a plane to get the best care in the world

    Yeah, must be awful for all those rural Canadians who have to fly into one of our major urban centres for treatment.

    More seriously, the reality is that medical discoveries happen world wide, because of the way we expect people to learn them and they be tested they do not propagate quickly, and sometimes the newest and "best" solution is only available at a single location for a long period of time. Public or Private – neither system changes that fact.

    At the same time, the general reason people go south is not "better" in terms of quality but "quicker" in terms of time and that's entirely their own decision and their money to spend. That being said, no one's ever been able to give me a good argument why someone with money should be able to jump ahead of me in the queue to my detriment for that reason alone.

    • Lord Kitchener's Own

      No one's ever been able to give me a good argument why someone with money should be able to jump ahead of me in the queue to my detriment for that reason alone.

      People with more money than you are more important than you. It's not rocket science.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      Hey dave, interesting how you feel you're so importand that instead of hitting the reply button you need to be down here.

      Anyway,,,

      Here's a thought: if you think it's ok for someone to jump the queue, then why are you forcing him to hop on a plane to do it? Is the plane ride the penalty fare? Is the fact that you end up so far from home your penance? Do queue jumpers owe a fee to Air Canada? Queue jumping is OK if it is twice as expensive as it needs to be? Why is it legal for Danny to fly down there, but it's illegal for Danny to fly the doctor up here?

    • dkite

      The question is wrong.

      Why is there a queue?

      Why do waiting lists save money?

      Derek

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

        Good questions.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Inkless Inkless

          Perhaps some federal cabinet minister from Ontario could be asked about Danny Williams's preference. Maybe one of the younger ones?

          • wsam

            Are you making a snide comment?

            Because that is not nice.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

            Chris Selley – Nat Post

            "On his Maclean's blog, Andrew Coyne suggests it's a little strange how nobody at the major media outlets seems to be paying much attention to the, uh, personal information about John Baird recently mentioned by an Ontario Progressive Conservative candidate on CBC Radio — especially considering how much attention they have devoted to Mr. Williams. (At least we think that's what he's doing. It is quite possibly the most inscrutable blog post in the history of the Canadian media, and we'll freely admit to having consulted some colleagues for guidance on the matter.) "

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            Here's the link:

            http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomm…

            Selley's first two paragraphs, summarizing Robson and the editorialists at the Chronicle Herald, are also very good.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            As for Baird, it seems to me the MSM don't want to talk about Baird because this reduces their ability to play the "Conservatives are homophobes" card which is a part of their favourite old scary hidden agenda card, where abortions will be outlawed, gays will be thrown in prison, CBC employees will be tortured, and we will all be forced to attend bible class.

            http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Harpers_new_sp…

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

            “If our system is the best, why are you going elsewhere? If the answer is that you need to jump the queue because you're really sick, and Canadian law makes it impossible here, aren't you admitting we've established a system particularly favourable to the very wealthy?”

            I agree 100% with Robson and was one of the reasons why I was confused about Coyne's post. Williams story received lots of msm attention but few talked about issue like Robson did. I thought Coyne's elephant in the room was same as Robson – that no one is talking about how our health care system works. I also didn't get Coyne's point because the msm maintains a baffling silence on many topics, not just Baird.

            I think msm is more worried about privacy issues or have convinced themselves the hoi polloi can't handle truth because we are a bunch of rubes or somesuch. Teneycke writes below – "this is a question that affects a number of politicians from a number of different political parties" – other MPs in similar situation.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            “If our system is the best, why are you going elsewhere? If the answer is that you need to jump the queue because you're really sick, and Canadian law makes it impossible here, aren't you admitting we've established a system particularly favourable to the very wealthy?”

            Exactly.

            Yes, the one part of that line that lefties will jump on is the "you need to jump the queue because you're really sick". That's where they will say that the doctors know best, that they'll put you at the front of the queue if you're really sick, and that you have right to question their decision. If you have a painful and degenerative hip, or a non-fatal growth in the brain, and the doctor says that you must live with it, then you have no recourse.

            So, once again, that's the part where we are painted as a bunch of rubes that should hand over control of our own health to our superiors and betters, the doctors and the politicians. If they say we must live with the pain and/or uncertainty, well, that's that.

            And yes, I am on the exact same page as you about Williiams. That is exactly that I said in an earlier comment, that many have reported on Williams, but most that did seem to accept the Williams decision as nothing but an anecdote to report on, and that there was nothing else to talk about. It's like it's simply become part of the landscape, that rich people in Canada fly to the US for their treatment when they have a serious condition. When it comes to the many senseless aspects of our health system, most people want to ignore them and simply remain silent, blindly adhering to an ideology.

            I also agree 100% that the media maintains a self-imposed silence on any number of issues, and that it's nothing unusual at all.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

            One more thing about
            “If our system is the best, why are you going elsewhere? If the answer is that you need to jump the queue because you're really sick, and Canadian law makes it impossible here, aren't you admitting we've established a system particularly favourable to the very wealthy?”

            This is always the end result of socialist systems. The end result is always a system far more unfair and far less egalitarian than the original free market. Socialism always results in scarcity, and always results in a system where the powerful have more rights than everyone else. You always end up with a system where people need to make connections and pull strings, where the only way to get favourable treatment is to know the right people and to be in the right social circles, or to simply have a pile of cash to fall back on, like Williams.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

            I am on way out of door so don't have time to type much but I just finished reading Lords of Finance – awesome book – and it got me thinking how capitalism has paid for the fascists to take our freedoms away from us.

            Democracies won WWII but fascists dominated the next seventy years. Communists, socialists, social dems have nothing to complain about – State controls business, health, education and many other sectors. Left wing types are more about envy – want to take peoples money – rather than anything to do with actually helping people.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

        Waiting lists save the single-payer health care system money when people give up or die. The cost to society as a whole is incalculable.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SisyphusThis SisyphusThis

    A knowledgeable person at the commie paper ….

    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/760217–me…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

    Williams’s preference in health care is nobody’s business, and should remain, as far as possible, a private matter between him and his God.

    But He is His god.

    • DPT

      so, no problem then.

    • Kev

      Jack, "He" and "His" should have been capitalized there; it's Danny Williams you're talking about.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

    I don't understand why the media is so bent out of shape. Couldn't they wait to find out why and be sure he got through it okay before pouncing on the man?

    I understand Williams does not take a salary or donates his salary.

    My brother-in-law (has a condo they stay in every winter) had a heart attack on the golf course. He has all the insurance bobbles and was operated in Florida because there was no time for him to come home. He said the hospital was great but no better than in Canada.

    The insurace company (as soon as he was ready – only a few days) flew him home and had an ambulance waiting to take him directly to a heart doctor (arranged by his family doctor) to continue his care – why? It was cheaper for the insurance company to do that than keep in the Florida hospital.

    • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

      "Cheaper" becuase it's "free" in Canada right?

      Rather because we already paid for his healthcare in Canada via taxes and they were shipping him back to recoup it.

      You get what you pay for. There is no free ride. I've been to US hospitals, and only the state ones are comparible to ours. Their private hospitals, which most Americans use, are far, far superior. "Hallway medicine" just doesn't exist there.

      Here, old or sick folks lining hallways in humiliating fashion, is the norm.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

        Oh Biff, get over yourself. Did you not read that my brother-in-law PAID for all the extra insurance bobbles? He does every year in case. He spends the winter in Florida.

        He was sent in for emergency quadruple by-pass – if he tried to get home he would have died.

        You truly are a fool.

      • tobyornottoby

        Private Insurance companies still pay for care in Canada biff. Just aren't the primary insurer.

    • Richard

      Well, you understand wrong. Williams does take a salary. If he gives it away, which he purports to do via his own limelight-seeking charity, he does so for the very same reason he goes to the USA.

      He is rich and can afford it.

  • Mike T.

    Like others, I note the media has actually been covering this, and that it's unlikely to be satire because then it undermines the main point of the article. I do think it "broke" a little late however, but they may have been trying to get more info on the nature of the surgery? Is it even known what it is yet? Apparently the press who haven't been covering it have talked to a doctor who says there's almost nothing that can be done in the states that can't be done in Canada. Or is he getting some non-essential perks or faster service in the U.S.?

    Is it possible that Mr. Williams is so nationalistic towards Newfoundland that he would rather go to the U.S. than another Canadian province?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

      My hypothesis is that it was worse politically for DW to have surgery in Toronto than in the US but likely a wash medically. NFLD is too bloody small to have its own healthcare system — all the scandals they have had is evidence of that — and DW going to another province would be far worse than going to the US. It would be much easier to admit that the Heart Institute (or whatever) at MIT is superior to NFLD care than to admit that Toronto General is.

  • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

    I suspect the many left leaning commenters here would be much more content with the media covering such important stories as a pooping puffin, or whether harper ate a wafer (both of which attracted more media attention than this startling revelation).

    The meme, portrayed quite accurately (from a leftist point of view, not accurately in the sense that it was honest) by Moore in "Sicko" – that Canada's health system (and Cuba's) is far superior to the US, is a central the statists world view,

    and so it is no surpirse that Andrew is recieving condemnation from the statists for describing the elephant in the room.

  • http://theplaceofbiff.blogspot.com biff

    That elephant being that wealthy Canadians routinely go to the US for treatment.

    And, contrary to the Star Reporter's blathering defence on Fox's Greta Van Sustern the other night,

    the fact that they so go speaks for itself. If you want "the best" in many areas, or if you don't want to wait months or years for more mundane surgery, say to alleviate pain via hip replacement, you drop a few thousand dollars and go to the US and have it done immediately.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

      ..and if you don't have those $1,000 you're SOL.

    • Jan

      You watch Fox news. This explains a lot.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    Farrah Fawcett, an American, hopped on a plane to German seeking the best care in the world for colon cancer. A former colleague of mine, a Canadian, also did go to Germany to seek treatment for the same cancer.
    They didn't care about statist v private medicine – they wanted the best available out there and they could pay for it.

    There is no such thing as a system that produces only the best – there's a lot of crappy doctors in the US and in Canada and in Germany. But a system cannot be devised to produce ten Einsteins per country. Same goes for medicine.

    If Danny Williams was seeking treatment for colon cancer instead and had elected to go to Germany, would Andrew Coyne write a column praising the merits of the German state healthcare system?

  • rabro

    It is a sad state of affairs if the person ultimately responsible for the level of health care offered in his Province is the one to say trough this act something like:"Our health care is good enough for you, but I am entitled to a better level. Sorry that you all have to pay for it;- it's the way the ball bounces." And that from the Premier of the Province whose cancer-care is the worst in Canada according to a nation-wide newspaper ! It's one thing to seek medical help outside your Province at your own expense; – but quite another to do so on taxpayers money ! Would it not be nice to have a regulation that says: " You legislated it ,you live with it ! And no exceptions !" But then again, I almost forgot, we live in Canada.

    • Loraine Lamontagne

      Danny Williams has worked hard enough and made enough money to seek the best treatment in the world. That is the lesson that we should understand from his seeking treatment in the US. If you want the best treatment in the world, get rich.

      You may have a disease one day for which you will be free and wealthy enough to seek the best treatment in the world – which could be found in the US or in a country with a statist healthcare, as in the Farrah Fawcett example.

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