Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

Politician, explain thyself

by Aaron Wherry on Tuesday, February 9, 2010 2:37pm - 40 Comments

The Liberal candidate in Dufferin Caledon carefully explains that while he was a “little tired of the Afghan detainee thing” and while he thinks “most Canadians” are probably are okay with a “little torture” at a time of war, he, with all his soul, abhors “the fact that Canadians have been involved with torture to get information from prisoners, who for the most part, are just farmers in the wrong place at the wrong time.”

Tags: Afghanistan, detainees, Dufferin-Caledon, Richard Colvin, torture, transfers

More by Aaron Wherry

http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

Bill Prout.. get the hell out.

The very last thing I want is ANY politician who thinks that most Canadians are okay with a little torture.

If this candidate actually runs in the next election, I think I may make a political donation or two.. or three.. depends how many candidates are running against him.

TedTylerEzro

Agreed.
Mike T.

Why do you hate the troops, Thwim?
wsam

Danny Williams!!!
Mee

He Thwim…how much sleep have you lost over the whole toture thing?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

None. That's why we elect representatives, so that they can lose sleep over these things so I don't have to. If this jackass isn't going to do that for me, I'm certainly going to support those who can make sure I don't have to worry about it.

Sorry, torture is a hardline issue for me. It's a hardline issue because
A: It doesn't work.
B: It endangers our troops by motivating our enemies to fight to the death rather than surrendering.
C: It damages our troops pyschologically.

I'm sorry if you don't see those as concerns, but I do.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Be_rad Be_rad

Well said. May I add: undermines our moral superiority, such as it is, to justify our imposition on their local hospitality.

Dee

Couldn't have said it better myself, Thwim.

Prout should resign, or he should be asked to resign by the Liberals. The phrase: "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" comes to mind.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

Wow. This guy sounds like a living, breathing gaffe machine. He seems confused about a lot of things. Don't forget his take on Bill C-15:

It received eight committee meetings within the Senate which can tend to hold it up, but it’s a pretty strong piece of legislation that we want to make sure is right. We’re talking life in jail if you get caught with more than five plants in your basement, also gun crime. People have a responsibility to do this right.

wsam

You guessed it. He is a gaffe machine. A living, breathing gaffe machine. They grow them in Orangeville. A town named for the Orange brothers, not because the town collectively hates Catholics. I mean, they do hate Catholics, at least they did, they just didn't name themselves for it. Someone should bring back the Orange Lodge. Damn Catholics are everywhere these days. There goes one now.

Dee

This'll come to the surprise of the many Catholics that live in Orangeville.

wsam

"…at least they did,… "

I was recently pleased to discover Orangeville was not named after the Orange Lodge (as I had always assumed), or out of sympathy for militant Protestantism, but was instead named after the Orange brothers, two Americans who came up from Pennsylvania in the 1840s and established a mill.

Now, how to explain away Erin.

Dee

You may want to start living in the 21st century, wsam. Orangeville is already there. It usually isn't a good idea to judge a municipality by its' purported leaders (e.g., Mel Lastman and Toronto).

http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

They would have been better off handing it to Garth Turner when he wanted it.

http://intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

Garth has a far better chance of winning against Tilson.

http://intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

Also, I should note for Dennis_F et al that this is a non-'kumbayah' moment.

wsam

Garth Turner used to own the Belfountain General Store. He sold it. Now it is a vegan place. To the people of Belfountain that is like torture. Worse, actually. That is like having Dick Cheney shoot you in the face and then having to go on national television to apologize for getting in the way of Cheney's bullets. Ritual humiliation is worse than torture.

It's like the Abu Garib man pile.

Are we go to get to make man piles like the Americans in Iraq?

sbt

To be a bit fair to Bill Prout we should probably mention that he brings up torture in the context of saving lives. One may agree or disagree with the substance of what he says but if he's going to get pilloried for supporting torture let's at least put the entire quote out there.

"Listen, I think most Canadians believe we’re at war, and if a little torture happens to save lives, most Canadians feel it’s ok, if it saves lives."

http://intensedebate.com/people/NotStephen Not Stephen Colbert

Okay, except that torture saves lives at somewhat less than the rate at which adultery saves marriages.

wsam

Great line.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

Except it's not okay. Period.

We are the good guys. We don't torture. We don't condone torture. We don't excuse torture. If you want to be someone who does, join those who do.. I believe they're called the Taliban.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

I think Jack did the saving lives line better.

[youtube hopNAI8Pefg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopNAI8Pefg youtube]

http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

Dear Bill: It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. Cheers, Abraham Lincoln.

Oh, and by the way, stop speaking as if you know what anyone outside of your own head believes.
http://intensedebate.com/people/mc79hockey mc79hockey

Wherry, as he occasionally does, misses the really astounding part:

They sewed Canadian flags to their backpacks, which for my generation gave you a sense of security while traveling abroad. Our flag was so well respected globally that it did in fact provide you with that extra bit of peace that you were not a part of imperialistic warring people. I thank God for the Liberal government of the day that refused to send our troops to Iraq.

If I understand that properly, Jean Chretien keeping Canada out of Iraq made the world safe for Prout's generation to travel in. And Americans are an "imperialistic warring people."

http://intensedebate.com/people/john_g2708 john g

Wherry, as he occasionally does, misses the really astounding part

Perhaps he did. But I must grudgingly give him credit for even posting this at all. This is usually the kind of thing that falls below Wherry's radar since it's not a Conservative chewing on his shoe.

Although it is curious…when a Conservative candidate mused his opinion that his riding wasn't getting stimulus because it was a Liberal held riding it was national news. A Liberal candidate muses that a little torture is "probably OK" and it's ignored, except by his own local paper. Which means I must give Wherry even more credit for finding this and posting it despite the lack of media coverage anywhere else.

http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

It's particularly odd, because Prout is 62 or so, so in that "making it good for the kids who will grow up soon" sense, he's not really of the Chretien generation. Though maybe he was switching reference to his adult childrens' generation?

Said confusion might account for why it's not making national news. If you can't make sense of what the speaker is saying, well, it's like trying to pounce on quicksand, all you do is sink.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

John, Aren't we past the "previous ambivalence" bs… I mean I understand that Iggy wrote a lot of words one after the other, but now that we have had time to actually read all the words there was no ambivalence, just a thoughtful discussion of the issue before clearly making the correct call.

http://intensedebate.com/people/john_g2708 john g

I agree. But Harper has been even more decisive about abortion, but that doesn't stop it from coming up and being thrown in his face by the media every time one of his knuckle draggers brings it up. Why should the Liberals be spared uncomfortable questions when one of their own knuckle draggers fails to toe the line on a question that, rightly or wrongly, the party has a questionable position on?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Stewart_Smith Stewart_Smith

So I understand your anger at the media being disingenious or even dishonest, but I still fail to understand how undermining your own credibility helps. Rather than point at Ignatieff's writings on the subject, surely there are some over-the-top recent, rightous quote from Iggy, Bob Rae, Pearson or Trudeau about how torture is never justified to smack this lightweight with?
http://intensedebate.com/people/ChrisInKW ChrisInKW

Harper, the Decider?

wsam

Yes.

http://intensedebate.com/people/psiclone psiclone

Good Grief!
Bonnie N

Garth must be laughing up his sleeve.. I mean really what's the diff between this guy and Mr. Grumpy Tilson??
wsam

The people who dislike torture are just jealous they haven't thought up a cool safe word. My safe words is Danny Williams. Nobdy tell the Talibans.
Toporious Tony

"With all my soul I abhor the fact that Canadians have been involved with torture to get information from prisoners"

Whoawhoawhoawhoa. Has that been proven beyond a reasonable doubt?

Or is that just an allegation made by four (4) Taliban prisoners to Colvin, buttressed of course by similar claims by Colvin's super secret sources that he refuses to reveal?

Y'all missed the REAL story here: a Liberal candidate made an unambiguous assertion that Cdn. military "have been" involved in torture. At least previous Liberal accusers have bothered with the formality of making conditional accusations that torture may or may not have occurred. That's really uncool and not only endangers the lives of our servicemen but civilians here in Canada, who might become the target of a retaliatory attack for torture that Canada did not do and may not have occurred in the first place.

That's serious stuff man, and if there is a terrorist attack in Canada in the next 12 months I will hold this guy accountable because the blood will be on his hands, having falsely smeared Canadian soldiers as torturers and incited a terrorist attack upon Canada.

Perhaps I'm being harsh. After all, Colvin is not only a federal public servant, but a trained journalist as well, two occupations well known for their high moral conduct and positive disposition toward Conservative governments, he couldn't possibly have ulterior motives.

http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

Think Kadhr and take it up with the SCoC, Trollorius.

Toporious Tony

Thwim says "Yabbut, look at this completely unrelated yet vaguely similar thingie."

Oh shut up.

http://intensedebate.com/people/AdenMurphy AdenMurphy

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that the Taliban monitor the statements of Liberal candidates, looking for the nuance between "aided and abetted torture, if the Taliban prisoners are to be believed" and what Prout said. Good call on that one.
Because the Taliban wouldn't've known anything about what happened in prisons, and are quite likely to stick entirely to the truth.
You're right, this candidate is endangering Canadians. Because once the Taliban get their copy of the Caledon Enterprise in the mail, they'll actually want to kill Canadians. As opposed to before, when tribal and religious fervour could only muster a half-hearted IED or ambush here and there.
Dear Toporious, sarcasm aside, please think before you post.

http://intensedebate.com/people/psiclone psiclone

I wonder if Iggy will roll over again and not exercise any leadership – we shall see (1) let MP's vote against party on budget no whip (2) let Coderre slide for 1 week – … etc etc etc – what;s it going to be I wonder?

http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

He'll wait until the rest of the caucus publicly shame him. Then Iggy will see to his ouster. There's plenty of time to find a new candidate since Iggy claims he's not calling an election.