Is France’s sale of warships to Russia really a good idea?

They’ll always have Paris

by Michael Petrou on Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:42pm - 25 Comments

Yet Russian defence rhetoric consistently revolves around nations that were once part of the Soviet empire and where sufficiently powerful political players desire closer ties with the West. Georgia is the most obvious example of a country that Moscow has sought to punish for tilting away from it. Russia has also manipulated gas exports to influence politics in Ukraine, where a pro-Russian separatist movement has the enthusiastic support of the mayor of Moscow, Yuri Luzhkov. Luzhkov also backs pro-Russian separatists in Moldova.

“I think we’re looking at a long process in which Russia either comes to terms with the idea that its neighbours are independent states whose mere existence is not a lever for enemies to weaken Russia, or we get a long process of unrelieved confrontations between Russia and smaller neighbours, the impact of which is felt in states in the West, which all things considered, would rather stay out of things,” says Stephen Sestanovich, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in the U.S., who from 1997 to 2001 worked in the State Department regarding American policy toward states of the former Soviet Union. “People who have been involved with Western efforts to pursue a kind of accommodation with Russia hope for the first, but we keep coming up with Russian impulses that favour the second.”

Barack Obama began his presidency in the optimist’s camp, saying it was time for the United States to “reset or reboot” its relationship with Russia. American officials who spoke to the New York Times claimed that Obama, in a hand-delivered letter to his Russian counterpart, suggested the United States would drop plans for a European missile defence system, which would have seen a radar station and rocket interceptors based in Poland and the Czech Republic, in exchange for Russian help confronting Iran. Obama denied a deal, but cancelled the missile defence plan in September.

Moscow has since said it would consider supporting sanctions against Iran—a stance David J. Smith, a senior fellow at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, dismisses as superficial posturing. “If the Russians had a real interest in helping us in Iran, they would help us in Iran,” he said. “They obviously don’t. They have an interest in making us think that they might.”
The Mistral-class ship deal, meanwhile, may be formally sealed next month. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev is visiting Paris in March.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    From Vichy, to the Cold War demand that American soldiers be entirely removed from French soil (response from the Americans: "Does that include the dead ones?"….sheepish withdrawal of the demand from the French) to the Oil-for-Food scandal and France's active involvement, France has not exactly covered herself in glory.

    This seems like a continuation of same.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

      It's a sad thing to see how quickly morons forget, if they ever knew, that France lost 217 000 killed fighting the Nazis. For comparison's sake, the USA (with more than three times the population) lost 416 000 killed. It's a despicable insult to pretend France did not fight hard in WWII; they just lost in 1940, is all, when Britain didn't do any better on the continent; but Britain had the Channel.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/sea_n_mountains sea_n_mountains

        agreed. not to mention how painful it is to see people toss around allegations about who is or is not honourable in isolation without providing any sense of a baseline for leveling the charge, or points of comparison to substantiate their claim.

    • Some thoughts

      One of the Frenchman who died was my uncle so all the idiots and would be patriots should count what the cost was to them if any.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        Note that the comment referred to Vichy, not the WW2 deeds of all Frenchmen. Vichy was a clear case of collaboration with the Nazi regime, including the French Milice helping to round up Jews. It stands in stark contrast to other areas of France, the French resistance, and indeed many other occupied countries.

        So unless your grandfather was an official in Vichy, this comment was not about him. Take it easy.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

          Ah, sort of like the papacy, eh? Gotcha.

        • Peter

          Oh, you are saying there were no collaboration in other occupied countries? Just look at the Netherlands and all central Europe countries.

    • Un Lorrain

      You may want to take a stroll in the forests around my home town. France lost more than 200000 killed in a six month siege of the place in 1916. It is called Verdun.
      P.S. if you do go for a stroll in the woods anywhere within 40 kms of the town dont light any campfires. Vast amounts of unexploded ordinance still litter the landscape. The scars of war are still evident all around especially in the numerous war cemetaries that surround the city.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jack_Mitchell Jack Mitchell

    Georgia is not a member of NATO and never will be. They simply can't be trusted to not wander around handing our enemies casus belli. Loose cannons are not welcome as allies. Selling weapons to the Russians is a bit dicey but it's not a violation of any alliance.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

      I agree. NATO would lose all credibility if it allowed Georgia to join.

  • OnTheJob

    I'm delighted to see Russia building up its military. We need a strong Russia to act as a bulwark against the Bolshevist west.

    • pogomutt

      Good one. Unfortunately, Russia's military will be 40% Muslim by 2025. Think about the ramifications.

  • Araman.

    Russia is not an enemy of the west. It is a part of it. The problem lies in the Anglophones who's been working hard to conquer the world and Russia is on the way. Since the collapse of USSR, Russia has been treated with contempt by the States and the allies. Russia has feelings too and it has the obligation of protecting its citizens. If Russia doesn't have democracy than north America has even less of it. We don't have real democracy here, what we do have is a dictatorship of the rich.
    Araman.

    • Darden Cavalcade

      The biggest danger to the Russian people is the Russian government, not the formerly subjugated states of the Former Soviet Union. And as for the Anglophone world. What world is that? You think New Zealand, Belize, and Canada are attempting to conquer the world? You're delusional.

      • OnTheJob

        Araman's opinion is fairly typical and common opinion among immigrants, many – most – of whom come from countries that have been subjugated by the British or the Americans.

        You see, hating white people is so 20th century; today's modern leukophobe has narrowed his racial hatred toward Anglos. They really, really hate us. I can overemphasize how much they hate us. How on Earth having these people immigrate to a largely Anglo country might be a benefit to the Anglos living there is beyond me – it is a policy that will inevitably lead, and to some degree already has lead, to violence. Violence against Anglos.

    • fuddle duddle

      yeah but in Russia if you criticize the government you can be sent to prison, in the usa you get your own show on Fox

      • Gary

        In the U S if you criticize republican incumbents Fox & Co will crucify you. Remember how any negative facts however true were mentioned about Bush a ton a bricks fell on who ever was brave enough to speak out. Also you must remember the French did bravely stand up to Bush and refused to participate in the illegal invasion of Iraq because there were no WMD . Bush lied and got clean away with it. Fox news even started the silly and rather stupid renaming of French fries to freedom fries. Something is desperately wrong with neocon thinking or lack thereof.

  • The realist

    Russia has no reason to trust the west after the repeated lies of the Americans and the Brits. When the USSR was falling appart Gorbachev was assured by the Americans and their british sidekicks that Nato would not expand to the borders of russia. It took Bush junior and Blair (his assistant liar) no time at all to go back on this agreement. They pressured the other allies into allowing former satellites into the fold. The Germans and the French as well as a majority of the public in most of western Europe have since come to the correct conclusions that the Georgia and the Ukraine are not worth dying for especially in a war that these two unstable regimes would have started themselves. (Did no one learn the lesson from supporting Serbia in 1914?) They have also concluded correctly that Nato no longer serves a useful purpose and will be allowed to die quietly.

    • laughing atur name

      It wouldn't take much pressure to induce former satellite states that fought for years for independence to join NATO. It provides the best protection against Russian aggression. You are deluded in thinking that Russia is the victim here.

  • Just Tom from Oshawa

    To The realist: your comments are a direct reflection of the Kremlin viewpoint. Bravo. Of course, NATO is a threat! Think about poor Switzerland — surrounded by NATO countries. No wonder they are armed to the teeth.

  • Fred – Brandon MB

    Just ask the Americans. It's a bitch when arms built in your country are used to attack your own forces.

  • pogomutt

    Wait'll 2045 when France's population becomes majority Muslim and they take over the nuclear submarine fleet. Of course Israel will probably have bombed French shipyards to rubble at that point.

  • whowants2know???

    This was a really dumb move by France.

  • Sooraj

    On one side of the divide are those countries that were once part of the Soviet bloc and whose citizens don’t have fond memories of the experience, such as Poland, the Baltic states, and Hungary. Countries with a more relaxed view, such as Germany and France, often stand to benefit economically from friendly relations.
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  • http://www.gadivorcelitigators.com/Divorce-Attorneys-Athens-GA.htm Divorce Attorney

    Great article Michael. Why sell something to Russia when you can sell it anywhere else?

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