Why is Iacobucci playing along?

Iacobucci was hired to ‘review’ the detainee documents

by Andrew Coyne on Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:51am - 167 Comments
Why is Iacobucci playing along?

Photograph by Adrian Wyld/ CP

As the Watergate scandal deepened, the U.S. Senate struck a committee to investigate. Headed by Sen. Sam Ervin, it had broad powers to subpoena documents and compel evidence, together with a staff of investigators and legal counsel.

On July 13, 1973, Alexander Butterfield, Richard Nixon’s deputy assistant, told committee staff that discussions in the Oval Office were routinely tape-recorded. Before long, judge John J. Sirica had launched proceedings to force the president to hand over the tapes. Nixon refused, citing executive privilege, but in the end complied with a Supreme Court ruling ordering their release, with consequences that are well known.

But suppose the U.S. Congress functioned like Canada’s Parliament, and Nixon had the powers, not of a president, but of a prime minister of Canada. The committee, uncertain of its jurisdiction and with little in the way of staff or resources, would very likely never have learned of the tapes’ existence. Had it persisted with its inquiries, Nixon could have shut down the committee, and the Congress with it. And, rather than defend his case in court, Nixon could have hired a former Supreme Court judge to “advise” him on whether to release the tapes. And that would more or less be that.

I don’t mean to imply the situations are directly comparable. But you will agree that the issues involved in the Afghan detainee affair—whether Canadian forces were directed to transfer prisoners to Afghan jails, either with reckless disregard for the likelihood they would be tortured, or in the certain knowledge that they would—are of the most serious kind. Perhaps you will also agree, therefore, that the handling of the case to date shows, yet again, how weak is our capacity to hold governments to account in this country. No, this isn’t Watergate. But if it were, how would we know?

It is now four months since Richard Colvin’s explosive testimony before the Commons special committee on Afghanistan. It is three months since Parliament demanded, by formal vote, that the government hand over all documents related to his testimony, in full, without redactions. It is more than two months since the government prorogued Parliament rather than comply, and two weeks since Parliament returned. And we are no closer to seeing the documents than we were before. Frankly, that is now the more pressing issue: whether the government is answerable to Parliament, or not.

The latest instalment in this saga, the hiring of retired Supreme Court judge Frank Iacobucci as an “independent adviser” to the government, is in some ways the most troubling. It is as if, rather than openly defy the norms and institutions of democratic accountability, the government has now chosen to parody them. Though he is, according to his terms of reference, to “review” those parts of the documents that are “proposed to be withheld from release,” and to “make recommendations” as to which of these might be “disclosed,” Iacobucci may see only those documents the government chooses to provide him. He has no powers to subpoena any others, nor is the government under any compulsion to follow his recommendations.

So nothing has really changed. The government is still reserving to itself the right to decide whether and on what terms it will be accountable to Parliament. Only now it has hired some high-priced legal talent to advise it. To make this credible, it is relying on public confusion on a couple of key points.

The first involves just who the information is to be “disclosed” to. The terms of reference suggest the issue is whether it should be released to the general public and the wider world, with whatever implications this might have for national security or international relations. But no one is proposing it should be released to the public: only to Parliament. And everyone agrees that sensitive information would be reviewed only in camera, by MPs sworn to secrecy.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

    You might need an update to this post, Andrew, in light of the 3 opposition parties point of privilege demanding unredacted docs be turned over.

    • kcm

      Andrew's been scooped. But it is a good question, one i've been wondering about – just what is ex Supreme Court Justice Iacobucci thinking?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

        Be fair: This was likely "put to bed" a while ago for publication. Andrew hasn't been scooped. His points about the opposition were fair game when submitted for publication.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/novagardener novagardener

        I've read he's being paid $600 an hour.!!!!!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

          $600/hour is lower than the going rate. This is not an issue.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

            I don't think anyone would fault him for charging that.

            I think the problem is Harper choosing to pay that instead of comply with Parliament.

          • Riley

            You have to know they're hiding something bad, then. Harper doesn't trust Canadians, so why should we trust him?

          • Sandy

            Agree.
            The world is watching Harper is bumbling. I wonder if this is what brings him down.

          • Michael St.Paul's

            Right – first start off with a hyperbole of a comparison – then say that "well that really isn't a comparison" – and conclude by questioning the man's judgement. Great piece, Andy.

          • Tony

            Well see Andrew is what in the media as a commentator or editorialist (quite popular in Canadian media), meaning he has risen to position where he is no longer bothered with having to investigate his story or provide any sources – he simply says whatever he wants.

          • Gary

            You beat me to it!
            Another piece of used toilet paper by Coyne!
            If you like the American system so much ( I'm sure not, but useful fodder for this trashy piece) move there!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/SunshineCoaster SunshineCoaster

            Very good article Mr Coyne. As you point out the Canadian system of government does have some flaws, but in the past these flaws have not jeopardized democracy because we had Prime Ministers we could trust to handle the levers of government with respect. The problem now is that we have a government and a Prime Minister who cannot be trusted at all. Our institutions will take a long time to recover, if ever.

          • old fogey

            You're lacking sunshine coaster – you seem to haven forgotten Trudeau, Creatien whom screwed up MY CANADA

          • kcm

            Read it again. He starts off by saying the US system worked, then moved on to wondering what might have happened had Nixon had to contend with our system – that's the comparisan. Was that really so hard now!

          • FVerhoeven

            But Watergate has aboslutely nothing to do with this. It's a sleazy way by Coyne to create the impression that it does, and so it will leave such impression with the reader while reading the rest of the article. It;s sneeky and unprofessional.

            Many readers do not realize when this is being done to them but it's called :"setting the tone of a piece" and any unsuspecting reader will be fooled by this tactic being used. I thihk Coyne is very aware of how this sort of tone setting works, and that is the part which disturbs me a great deal.

          • Avg Cdn Perspective

            The larger Canadian public DO NOT care about this issue. The media just don't seem to understand that, but yet they and the other political parties continue to rant on endlessly about it, as they are too lazy to find something else to report.

            The Canadian Army turned over Afghan terrorists who were engaged in a war trying to kill Canadian Soldiers to their own countrymen, the Afghan Army. How Afghanistan chooses to deal with it's own citizens in a time of war and civil unrest should be of little concern to Canada.

            Cont…

        • DPT

          Who? Andrew or Iacibucci?

    • http://eugeneforseyliberal.blogspot.com EugeneForseyLiberal

      I think this was precisely the right line to take for the print edition, as no matter what happens these next seven days, Iaco will undoubtedly be used as Govt shield, and that must be exposed as the dangerous farce it is. These parodies of democratic institutions and workings have a nasty history.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    But no one is proposing it should be released to the public: only to Parliament. And everyone agrees that sensitive information would be reviewed only in camera, by MPs sworn to secrecy.

    You call "public confusion" the very real concern that this will somehow protect sensitive information from becoming public knowledge. MPs sworn to secrecy, eh? So let me guess. Your media entity will immediately report to the RCMP whatever "wishes-to-remain-anonymous" source sends you copies in a brown envelope? And all other law-abiding entities will behave similarly? Riiiiight.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      Your argument is that because they *may* not obey the law and promises they're bound to, we should treat the situation as if they won't.

      I'm sure you'd raise one hell of a hue and cry were we to treat the average citizenry in the same way. Because they *may* not obey the laws about planning treasonous activities, we should bug everybody's phones to find out.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

        Well, yeah, I am presuming the info in a bunch of partisan MPs' hands will be in the public domain pretty quickly. It's a position I have held and argued for quite a while. Ane even if the pages DON'T end up in a brown envelope on a reporter's desk, I can easily inagine the privileged MP's off-the-record commentary: "Well, as you know, I have been sworn to secrecy, so I can not give you any specifics, but, hoo boy, it's even worse than we could imagine and I see why these non-transparent Tories would do everything possible to keep this embarrassing information away from the voters." Etc. Etc.

        And as to your point (unrelated to the protection of sensitive information): you bet I would raise a hue and cry about bugging everybody's phones.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

          Except, as I've pointed out elsewhere, the only MPs who have a track record of being lax with documents and information pertaining to national security are Harper Cabinet members.. specifically Bernier and Guergis.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/avr avr

            being lax with documents

            Oh, please. This isn't a question of sloppy document handling; they'd be intentionally leaked by opposition MPs to friendly, Harper-hating reporters within hours.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

            Can you point to any documents pertaining to national security being released by the opposition?

            After all, I can point to the government releasing documents to the BCCLU with less redaction than those forwarded to the MPCC committee. I can point to government appointed board members releasing confidential documents to Ezra and nowhere else.

            Really, it seems the only ones with the tendancy of releasing sensitive documents to outside agencies is Harper's folks.

          • LiveBloggin Junkie

            "Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh (Vancouver South, Lib.):
            Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wish to inform you and the House that I inadvertently tweeted about matters that I ought not to have tweeted about; that is, the in camera proceedings of the defence committee. That was an error on my part and that entry will be deleted at the earliest possible opportunity, which is right after I get out of here.

            The Speaker:
            I thank the hon. member. I assume that tweeting means it went on Twitter."

            http://www2.parl.gc.ca/housechamberbusiness/Chamb…

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

            Perhaps you have difficulty reading. I specifically said, "pertaining to national security".

          • Guest

            "in camera proceedings of the defence committee" may pertain to national security but maybe you had difficulty reading that part.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

            Perhaps you should go read what he actually twitted. Here, because I obviously can't expect you to do your own research:

            ""The Bloq thwarted the Liberal motion at the Defence Committee re investigating the Detainees issue. New Coalition partner w/Cons. #cdnpoli"

            Wow.. just think.. 30 seconds with Google could have saved you that burning sensation as you realize you look like an idiot.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Nich Nich

      You may traffic cocaine.

      Therefore, we are going to lock you up just to be safe.

      Someone has to protect the children from you.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

        Nope.

        You run a very real risk of suffering a smash-and-grab if you leave valuables locked up in your car, especially if you leave them visible on the dashboard. So you either remove them from view when you leave them in your locked car, or you take them with you.

        Spot the difference?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Nich Nich

          Your argument is based on the assumption that Members of Parliament will commit treason given the opportunity (which I think is the charge for breaking such oaths of secrecy).

          You do see the problem with such an assumption, right?

          By such reasoning, the Government of Canada can never be held to account for anything at anytime because it may be a matter of national security.

          And having a consultant, regardless of his previous title, examine papers submitted by the government is perhaps the lamest thing a government could do, when it looks like they are trying to cover something up.

        • Marion

          You may speed or drive under the influence, therefore we will suspend your driver's licence.

    • Sue

      The central point of this discussion is that Parliament is the highest authority in the land, comprised of our ELECTED representatives. If Parliament is not provided with ANY information by the government, the government is not accoutable to the citizens of this country. We believe in a democracy that our governments are accountable to those who elect them. Harper has demonstrated that he does not understand or chooses to ignore the authority of Parliament through countless actions culminating in this, after four years. Watch out.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

    And he has potentially placed the existing members of the court, should it come to that, in the position of having to rule against one of their own.

    If the SCOC is incapable of disagreeing with a private citizen who happened to sit on the SCOC, the error of judgment rests with the sitting members, not with the former member.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/tedbetts tedbetts

      I think Coyne's point is the opposite. Surely the SCC would have no problem disagreeing with him if they thought proper, so why would he subject himself to that embarrassment?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/avr avr

        Maybe as a genuine legal scholar, he wouldn't find it embarrassing, should it happen.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/andrewcoyne Andrew Coyne

      Let me quote from Norman Spector, former chief of staff to Prime Minister Mulroney:

      "If the nine Justices are forced to choose between a process that has their former colleague determining whether officials went too far in censoring the documents in the name of national security, and Derek Lee’s arcane views of parliamentary privilege, the score will resemble one of those lopsided results we saw during the Olympics in women’s hockey."

      If that sort of perception exists, we have a problem, regardless of whether such considerations actually influence the judges' decision or not.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

        I confess that I don't follow precisely which way Spector argues the lop would side. I am guessing which way, but I am not sure.

        If Spector believes the SCOC would defer to Iacobucci's work, trusting that he knows what he's doing, and just plain forgetting that we have a Constitution that deals with so much more than the terms of reference handed to him, then Spector's got a very dim view of the SCOC.

        If Spector believes that the SCOC would find that Parliamentary supremacy means that Iacobucci's work is irrelevant, and that all documents must be provided, but that they would refrain from saying so because they are afraid to embarrass a former colleague, then he has a very dim view of the SCOC.

        And if you or he believe that such a perception might exist, should the SCOC ever rule against a full and complete disclosure as requested by the House resolution, then you both have a very dim view of Canadians.

        If Spector believes that the lop would side with parliamentary privilege, then what's the problem? (This is why I guess Spector is arguing one of the first two of my scenarios.)

      • djb

        Seriously, who cares what Spector thinks about anything? The two or three hundred Canadians who actually know who he is?

        Andrew, you are far too isolated from actual Canadians, and you in the MSM are drinking your own koolaid. It's time all of you wake up and smell the double-double.

  • shouldIsellyourwheat

    //It is three months since Parliament demanded, by formal vote, that the government hand over all documents related to his testimony, in full, without redactions.//

    Parliament has also passed the National Security Act, which is the law of the land. Is Canada a nation of laws, or a tyranny of Parliament, where parliamentarians can override laws on a whim, instead of passing a new law.

    //He has placed himself in the middle of a nasty power struggle between the legislative and the executive branches, only not in the position of independent arbitrator, as on the court of which he was once a member, but as a paid adviser to one side. And he has potentially placed the existing members of the court, should it come to that, in the position of having to rule against one of their own. It is a surprising error of judgment.//

    I disagree. Iocobucci is ruling which documents can be release under the National Security Act. The Supreme Court will be ruling whether the rule of law, the National Security Act, or Parlimentary Privilige (whether parliament is above the law) takes precedence. Two entirely different things.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/pilgrimsbridge pilgrimsbridge

      Mr. Iacobucci is not a judge. He is a former judge. As you said, two entirely different things.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Thwim Thwim

      You've fallen for the bafflegab. Iocobucci is not ruling a god-damned thing. He's providing advice to one side.

      Whether his advice is based on an accurate rendering of the documents to him, or taken thereafter, is entirely at the option of the government under question.

  • ex canuck

    Mr Coyne, are you a "world government" advocate? One fears so, given your evident support of UN auto-awarded prerogatives like determining which country is and which is not prone to torture and what is and what is not torture. As a peripheral issue, is it in order for one to suggest that your magazine do one of its trademark in-depth illuminations of the saintly Mr Colvin?

    • MacLean's Regular

      The personal attacks are becoming quite desperate.

      • ex canuck

        Re-read the host article if you wish to inform yourself about personal attacks.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

        I'm actually relieved he's an "ex-Canuck"

        • ex canuck

          Aw, gee, one feels gutted. Should one apologize for having interrupted your cosy anti-Harper quilting bee.

          • MacLean's Regular

            Absolutely not. Your frothing and foaming is mildly entertaining.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/FVerhoeven FVerhoeven

      ex canuck, you bring up a very important question, that wanting to understand the difference "world governments" and national governments. This problem of making distinctions does not merely plague Canadian writers of, for that matter Canadian political leaders, but plagues most of them operating in the western world.

      The issue of "world governance" needs to be addressed within this Afghan detainee transfer debacle. In fact, it lies at the core of it.

  • MacLean's Regular

    "What I cannot understand is why Iacobucci would allow himself to be used in this way. "

    Everyone in that age/class demographic simply doesn't care about anything other than making sure the status quo they lived in is perpuated after they live. Why *that* is, I don't understand. Perhaps some people are just living too long.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

      "What I cannot understand is why Iacobucci would allow himself to be used in this way. "

      Iacobucci has allowed himself to be used in exactly this way before, during the Iacobucci Inquiry (http://www.iacobucciinquiry.ca/). The Justice Minister decided to redact information that showed CSIS submitted questions to foreign agents who were torturing a Canadian citizen.

      After two years, the info was pried out of the minister's hands by the SCOC. Only then did we find out that Iacobucci had recommended the information be released.

      I'm sure the Conservatives are counting on the same kind of deference from Iacobucci in the future. He's the perfect fig leaf.

    • ex canuck

      And you accuse me of engaging in personal attacks!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/pilgrimsbridge pilgrimsbridge

    Andrew, you've got it absolutely right! Parliament is the highest Court, bar none. Mr.'s MacKay, Nicholson and Cannon are in contempt, and ought to experience a bit of their own tough-on-crime medicine.

  • shouldIsellyourwheat

    Iacobucci is not ADVISING on any of the issues that the Supreme Court will be asked to decide upon.

    Iacobucci is advising on the National Security Act. The SCOC will be deciding whether the National Security Act or Parlamentary Privilige takes precedence.

    Satisfied.

    • Jim

      Um… the SCOC is not involved in this.

  • Stephen W

    Iacobucci must be made to recuse.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

      Why? His job MAY be rendered moot by present goings-on. But the goings-on may lead nowhere, and all that will have been achieved is the delay of his "expeditious" process.

    • Poker Face

      Iacobucci is not a judge. Thus he cannot recuse himself.

  • rabro

    Is this really the best the Canadian citizen can expect ?:A near Dictator for a Prime Minister and a self-aggrandizing, wishy-washy waffling Opposition. Good night Canada ! Should you ever wake up, it might be too late !

  • Jennifer Pollock

    Still a valid question. Justice Iacobocci should take this moment to step aside as Parliament will make his work mute. That way he can save face while not appearing to take a partisan position on the point of privilege facing the House of Commons. Perhaps an MP could bring a motion arising to call for abandonment of the mandate to Iacobocci.

  • Jennifer Pollock

    Iacobucci not as spelled above- Apologies to the former Justice of the Supreme Court

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/TwoYen TwoYen

      Why don't you just use the edt function. That's what it is there for.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/SamDavies SamDavies

        No registration = no editing capabilities.

  • shouldIsellyourwheat

    It probably will be before this is over.

  • Dot

    And he has potentially placed the existing members of the court, should it come to that, in the position of having to rule against one of their own. It is a surprising error of judgment.

    This is a weak argument. Anything of a legal nature that Iacubucci undertakes potentially could end up before the Supreme Court.

  • Mickey Shea

    "No, this isn’t Watergate. But if it were, how would we know?"

    That's a chilling thought. But thankfully the opposition parties are now standing up for democracy and accountability and the supremacy of Parliament, all three of them tabling motions that the Harper government's continued refusal to release the documents to MPs is a breach of parliamentary privilege. This is heading towards Contempt of Parliament.

    We the people have the right to hold our government accountable through our elected representatives, and the Harper government is going to extreme lengths to deny us that right.

  • knick

    And, why is it that there has not been one word from Iacobucci on his appointment? He doesn't need to reveal state secrets to tell Canadians why he accepted this task which, by some accounts, he will be spending at least a year to complete.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

      Not sure he needs to. Address your Q's to the people who hired him.

      • knick

        Sure, but given all the controversy, maybe he could put our minds at ease…or somethin'

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/tobyornotoby tobyornotoby

    Reportedly, some of the same documents were redacted differently when filed in the Amnesty court case than when they were submitted to the MPCC. Obviously you can't disclose something one day and then redact the next and claim national security implications.

    If the Conservatives were actually sincere about getting advice from Iacobucci they would have asked him to recommend a better framework for determining what should and shouldn't be disclosed and who should (and shouldn't) be in on the redacting.

  • Obus3

    I think that the opposition is trying to put us on a very slipp-ery slope. Suppose they win the fight and can see any document, Government or otherwise that they choose to demand. They could demand Cabinet Minutes, Military Operation Orders and more. That would be a disaster that even Mr. Coyne would wish to avoid. The Executive Branch has its' perogatives as does the Legislative. That's how it was set up in 1867. Let the former SCOC Justice do his job.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/FVerhoeven FVerhoeven

      The opposition trying to put us on a slippery slope, you think?

      What to think of NDP motion to have PM right to ask for prorogation subjected to a seven day clause by Parliament. As if a simple vote in the house could take PM powers away that easily. But of course, if Harper (or any future PM) does not bind him or herself by the NDP motion, all hell will break loose, because you see, the PM is at it again, not listening to the voice of Parliament. Good grief, how simplistic are Canadian politics becoming?

  • embee

    Okay, the government agrees a committee of MPs gets to see all documents, all documents are unredacted. The committee members are sworn to secrecy. They see that awful, embarrassing and illegal activities have been conducted and were known to be conducted by either or both of the Liberal and Conservative governments. Political, military, diplomatic personnel are all seen to be complicit directly or in the cover up.

    So what happens? The committee members are sworn to secrecy so they can only talk to each other? Isn't the final result simply an information session for those on the Committee? More comparable to the kerfuffle in the US about Nancy Pelosi being informed of waterboarding, but unable to speak of it because the information came during a secret national security briefing.

    Only in a minority government.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/tobyornotoby tobyornotoby

      If they find out the redactions were motivated by political vs. national security considerations, the oath of secrecy doesn't apply.

      At that point the committee "invites" the government officials responsible to appear in front of the committee and explain who requested the documents be redacted and on what basis. They could also ask why same documents were redacted differently when supplied to the federal court vs. the MPCC vs. the committee.

      The small questions are almost more important than the big one about torture, because they are about whether the government is acccountable for its decisions.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

      What happens is the committee decides what gets revealed and what really needs to be redacted, the government files an injunction and the whole thing lands in a real court of law.

      • Observant

        Okay .. so all the redacted documents are unredacted and all the MPs have access to them … what next?

        Let's assume that the gov't of the day was looking the other way over torture and abuse of Afghan detainees .. what next?

        A war crimes tribunal in Canada so that all federal politicians, civil servants and soldiers are charged accordingly?

        Should all those suspected of being complicit in "war crimes" be apprehended and placed under arrest?

        Coyne … please tell us how you think things will play out if all this comes to past.

        • riley

          Not all MPs will have access to them, just an in camera parliamentary committee under oath would review them. If there are individuals implicated in what, by international definition (and declarations we've signed) are war crimes, those individuals could find themselves under arrest. If Canada refuses to do it, we could face UN sanctions. You want THAT on this country's record? The country that founded international peacekeeping, that was a leader in banning land minds, establishing conventions and international law around child soldiers, that pushed for sanctions against apartheid south africa? See … this is how Harper is following through with his promise that if he becomes prime mininster you won't recognize the country. It's sickening.

          • DPT

            oh dear, UN sanctions! the same UN that sponsors Durban? That UN? The oil for food UN?

          • Observant

            riley … The Afghan mission is a UN mission, so is the UN also complicit of "war crimes" … you can't just stop at the Canadian gov't. Again, what if the Opposition members of the parliamentary committee determine that "war crimes" may have happened … what happens next? Will they be obliged to reveal the content of the documents and also endangering the national security and the safety of soldiers in Afghanistan? Do you want to see Canadian ministers and Canadian army officers being charged of perpetrating "war crimes"???

          • FVerhoeven

            Most people don't think that far ahead.

            And besides, a lot of people seem to think that separated pieces of paper read by various committee members, etc, will string the issues back together. Things cannot be done in that way. I think it is important that one person, in this case a retired SCC judge, looks at the total picture. Because it must be a total picture.

      • orval

        Is the Speaker likely to rule that parliamentary privilege has been breached so as to constitute a ruling of contempt of Parliament? Unlikely.

        Justice Binne quoted (in Vaid case) the Speaker in a ruling on April 29, 1971:

        "On a number of occasions I have defined what I consider to be parliamentary privilege. Privilege is what sets hon. members apart from other citizens giving them rights which the public do not possess. I suggest we should be careful in construing any particular circumstance which might add to the privileges which have been recognized over the years and perhaps over the centuries as belonging to members of the House of Commons. In my view, parliamentary privilege does not go much beyond the right of free speech in the House of Commons and the right of a member to discharge his duties in the House as a member of the House of Commons".

        (House of Commons Debates, vol. V, 3rd Sess., 28th Parl., April 29, 1971, at p. 5338)

        I listened to Bob Rae and Jack Harris on Power Point – they are already looking for a face-saving way out on this.

        • orval

          I just saw on Kady's site the quote of Speaker Milliken's ruling of June 8, 2006:

          "In light of … precedent and the statement put forth by the hon. Government House Leader that the security of Canadian soldiers could be jeopardized, I must rule that the Prime Minister is under no obligation to table the document in question."

          It is worth reading in full. I would predict if there is any likelihood of risk to Canadian troops and operations (which is what the Department of Justice is saying), it is unlikely this Speaker will rule that Parliamentary privilege trumps section 38 Canada Evidence Act and/or the convention against disclosure in Parliament of information that would be harmful to Canada and Canada's interests.

          • BobbyB

            Have Canadians had enough yet of this Harper government? Because if Harper does not hand over the documents then it should and probably will become a confidence issue and trigger an election.

            Canadians will be asked to go to the polls and if we do not kick these bums out then they will continue to subvert the will of parliament! I refuse to believe that Canadians would succumb to these Conservative tactics and would not vote them out of office.

            Canadians cannot leave Harper and his Conservative gestapo in place to abuse Canadian democracy and thumb their noses at the rule of Parliament, using this institution as their joy toy to play with as they like!

            I'm mad as hell at the Conservatives and I'm not going to take it anymore!

          • old fogey

            It's too bad you're so ill.

          • kcm

            http://www.cbc.ca/news/pdf/20091210-lawclerkrespo…

            The law Clerk has a very different view.

  • Tony

    You "don't mean imply that it is directly comparable", but you do compare it to one of the biggest scandals involving a democratic government in the past 50-100 years.

    What kind of journalism is this?

    • Gary

      Visit here more often……………..then ask yourself that question again!

      • kcm

        Care to suggest somewhere where the journalism is so much better?

        • Gary

          In Canada?……………………nope! The NP is far more balanced than most, but sadly still not good.
          Canadian Journalists in general are the equivalent of Pravda, being the propaganda arm of the Liberals;)
          Disturbingly, most Canadians are shallow enough to swallow this crap!

          • kcm

            Ah so think we need our own version of fox eh?

          • Gary

            If that's what it takes to balance the wackjobs……………………. then YES!
            Although I would rather our media would just grab a collective brain!
            Or do you prefer censorship on any other view other than your own?

  • JTeller

    JTeller:

    >>"What I cannot understand is why Iacobucci would allow himself to be used in this way. " <<

    $600.00 or more an hour. What part of that don't you get?

  • http://nottawa.blogspot.com Mark

    Lost in all of this is the hypocrisy of Stephen Harper as Reform MP, NCC Chair and then Opposition Leader whining for years on end about the supremacy of Parliament over the courts and "judge made law" etc.

    • riley

      It's normal behaviour for Strausians like Harper (trained by the ultimate Strausian, Tom Flanagan). The philosophy can be summed up as follows: The little people are too stupid for their own good, and will hate our enlightened policy, so we will have to lie to them and trick them and pretend we're just like them (Tim Horton's anyone?) so that when we get power we can drag them kicking and screaming into our brave new world. No parliament can be allowed to get in our way once we have power.

    • gerry

      Please name one instance where Stephen Harper was whining about the Supremacy of Parliament.

  • Loraine Lamontagne

    The Opposition is asking that the documents be released to the members of the Special Committee – not to all parliamentarians.

    There is nothing new in this. I have for years watched the proceedings of the Defense committee. They go behind closed doors whenever sensitive information is discussed.

    • LiveBloggin Junkie

      "Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh (Vancouver South, Lib.):
      Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I guess this is a day for apologies.

      The House may remember the matter of Twitter and the tweeting that I apologized about last Tuesday, and that was an error on my part. Subsequently that day I was approached by the media to talk about the nature of the three different motions, one having been before the defence committee in camera. The motion itself was public. The other two motions by two members before the special committee on Afghanistan were also public.

      I discussed those motions, the broadness or the narrowness of the individual motions, but there is a genuine belief on the part of some members that doing so was part of the same transaction of disclosure that occurred on Twitter.

      While I may disagree, there are certain members who hold that belief genuinely, and I respect that, and I believe an apology is due from me and one is made sincerely. If members believe that I made an error then I was in error, and I accept full responsibility. I apologize to the House and to the committee."

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/JETSOLVER JETSOLVER

        Don't suppose you have a date or link to that? It indicates at the very least, that the LPC's chief bulldog has no idea of what is, and what is not privileged information. Which bears directly on the issue, does it not?

        For the record, I want it stated very clearly the difference between whistleblowing, leaking privileged information, and outright handling of documents of national security for matters outside that limited mandate. I think that some are hoping if they shake the tree long enough, something juicy might fall out, utterly without regard to the implications for people STILL ON THE GROUND!

      • Fred – Brandon MB

        This story makes two bold assumptions; 1- that there is a conspiracy to hide the facts, and 2- that the judge is party to the conspiracy.

        I think that both assumptions are wrong. Iaccobucci is nobody's fools. I think that if the documents are made public, the Liberals will end up being more embarassed than the Conservatives.

        Drawing a parallel to Watergate is pretty severe and unwarranted. I for one, wish this story would just die already.

        • garth

          If you were right about the Liberals being more embarassed than the Conservatives, then the documents would have been released months (if not years) ago.

    • wilson

      And what about the BLOC members,
      they want to destroy Canada, you want them to see secret documents?

    • Observant

      But what if the Opposition members of the Special Committee determine that the Harper gov't were complicit in "war crimes" .. i.e. knowingly allowed Canadian soldiers to turn over detainees to Afghan authorities who subsequently tortured and abused them? Should those Opposition MPs stay silent and themselves become complicit in covering up "war crimes" … or should they come out in public and reveal the contents of the documents that lead them to that conclusion?

      Take it all to a logical conclusion … what happens next ..???

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/BCVoiceOfReason BCVoiceOfReason

    Canada has a totally dysfunctional system to address situations of national security.

    The example provided by the republic to the south has the military and spy agencies prepare reports that are presented to selected members of both national parties represented in congress.

    What is presented is done so in secrecy and while I am not certain should any information be leaked from these briefings there likely would be charges of treason.
    Canada had an in camera meeting and the Liberal representative Dosanjh was twittering on the the private proceedings. He is still a member of parliament has, not be censured for his actions or mentioned in discussions by Mr. Coyne.

    How in the world can the opposition parties pretend that they would be able to know things that were damaging to the CPC but were really issues of national security.

    Justice Icaboucci can see the dilemma and has offered to provide his reputation and life's works in providing a solution.

    My solution would to have reporting to all party representatives of parliament with the penalty of disclosure so severe that it would force honour among our politicians.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/BCVoiceOfReason BCVoiceOfReason

      Could you imagine the hue and cry if a separatist MP was identified as a security leak and his party were fined $10M and lost public funding for 5 years he be jailed for life with no chance of parole for 20 years?

      They might try that to kick start the sovereignty movement. The logic being Canada's secrets are not Quebec's secrets.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/tobyornotoby tobyornotoby

        We already have a hue and cry. Retired generals and Christie Blatchford got a look at the documents. Julie Couillard had some of them for a few weeks. Amnesty International and the MPCC each got different versions of the same documents. Peter Mackay confirmed publicly (to Canadian Press) that one of the redactions referred to CSIS. (When is he being charged under the Official Secrets Act by the way?)

        And you're worried that elected MP's responsible for studying the issue might not be careful? Does Voice of Reason mean something different in BC?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/BCVoiceOfReason BCVoiceOfReason

          Ms. Blatchford got the redacted documents…. you know the ones that were held up to the cameras to prove a point and hope that there really wasn't anything important on them.

          My guess you would be venturing into uncharted territory with anything to do with reason.

  • The Rat

    I wonder how many of the tapes that had to be handed over were relevant to the Watergate probe and how many were just titillating and very useful for partisan interests? If parliament is to be supreme it must also be responsible and there is nothing in the Liberal/NDP Afghan questions that strikes me as a responsible inquiry. Does Mr. Coyne truly believe that any documents that do intrude on National security will not be leaked if there is partisan advantage to be gained? Maybe Iaccobucci is playing along because he believes that national security should be considered seriously before we give separatists, pacifist agitators, communist organizers, and assorted other nutjobs documents that could end up killing people. Maybe Iaccobucci thinks reminding MPs of their responsibilities is a good idea at a time when they seem only to care about their privileges.

    I trust Iggy, let him read them.

    • Loraine Lamontagne

      Rat, again, the opposition is asking that the documents be released to a very small group, the members of the Special Comittee – NOT TO THE PUBLIC AND NOT TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS!

      There are twelve MPs, including government-side MPs in that Committee, I believe.

      • CLN

        MPs represent the voices of people, therefore Parliament is supreme. The Government rules at the pleasure of parliament. Since this government has a minority mandate, it can't do as it pleases. If the Government doesn't like Parliament as it is configured, it can go back to the people and ask for the configuration of Parliament that will kowtow to the Government. Canadians have voted twice against that. Harper should either obey Parliament or pleads his case to the people in an election. No more dictatorship.

        • hollinm

          You are being slightly overly dramatic. Dictatorship? Come on give your head a shake.
          If the opposition believes in their over the top rhetoric and their hysterics in the House then they have the power to vote non confidence and cause an election. You know that. It is within their complete control.
          However, they don't have the guts because despite all the white noise Harper's leadership numbers are twice as good as Iffy's and the government in an election mode will focus on their leadership during the recession. That's what Canadians will vote on. Not this silly gamesmanship that the opposition and the government are engaged in. The fact is most Canadians could care less about Afghans torturing Afghans and thats what drives the leftist media and the opposition parties to distraction. Have good day.

    • kcm

      "…communist organizers…"

      Oh god!!!

      • The Rat

        Yeah, sorry, but that secret tweeting ex-commie UjjieDosanjh – oh wait, isn't he one of the 12 MPs you want to release the documents to? Maybe you're not from BC but I remember a certain backstab for personal interest here. You could ask Glen Clarke what that was.

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