Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

Categories: Beyond The Commons, Capital Read

Eye of the beholder

by Aaron Wherry on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:17am - 97 Comments

After a day of debate, the Liberal motion was defeated by a count of 144-138, with three Liberals voting against.

The Canadian Press figures we’ve gained no clarity on the government’s position. With the Campaign Life Coalition having deemed this vote a referendum of sorts on abortion, LifeSiteNews calls the result a “pro-life victory.”

Tags: abortion, Campaign Life Coalition, foreign aid, house of commons, LifeSiteNews, maternal health, Parliament

More by Aaron Wherry

http://intensedebate.com/people/Mike514 Mike514

Interesting. I was originally skeptical of your first comments above, but after you've provided all this data, it's certainly an eye-opener.

Good job digging up the numbers.

Holly Stick

You're welcome… but wiki did it.
http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tigerinexile Ben (The Tiger)

The era of Google and Wikipedia. (Imagine having to go to the reference library still — ugh!)

It's interesting how public opinion shifts over time. For instance, Canadians were fairly firmly in favour of capital punishment (~70% for) long after its abolition, until the turn of the century, after which only a weak plurality (40-45%) supported it. I think it was the Marshall and Milgard cases that changed people's minds…

Canadian politics is less responsive to public opinion than other countries' — the United States, for sure.

Stronger party discipline is what does it, I think — individual MPs can't save themselves on a single issue the way congressmen can.

***

I wonder if that trend would continue, though, if the power of the last great brokerage (i.e., spectrum-spanning, less ideological) party — the Liberals — were broken. Or maybe its possible replacement, Harper's Tories, would fall into that same role.

If Canada wound up with two ideology-based parties — say a centre-right CPC including some blue Grits and a centre-left party that drew from Liberals, Dippers, and Greens — would Canadian politics take up the hot-button issues more based on what the public says it wants in issue polls? (If it did, here's an issue that would move — 70% of Canadians support decriminalizing marijuana, and 50% support legalizing it outright.)

http://intensedebate.com/people/madeyoulook madeyoulook

Jack, it' s been a slice. All the best. I believe we have a global-warming bet outstanding with a date for a Times Square beer-buying, the buyer being dependent on whether said portion of real estate is swimming in the melted icebergs of the Atlantic. I'll have to look that up, because I wouldn't want you to be alone and dry in your SCUBA gear…

Enjoy Halifax — it's a pretty town. If ever I am that way I might look you up to buy you a beer over lunch even as we wait for the above wager to pan out…

Oh, and as to the meat of the discussion: You are free to come and go as you please, for reasons that are valid, invalid, or none of our business. But Wells is not completely off base, here. You can be legitimately peeved if anonymous folk illegitimately insult your true-identity self. Much as we who hang out here like to think Macleans has something way more special than other outlets' comment-messes, a whole bunch of us are anonymous, many legitimately so, and, after all, it is just a blog comment board.

Take care, Jack.

–MYL
http://intensedebate.com/people/Iccyh Iccyh

You linked your website, and your website says "Please feel free to email me". I'll read that as permission.
http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

I mentioned this yesterday, but I'll mention it briefly again. Abortion isn't a right/left wedge issue, it's an issue that can wedge any party, and while the traditional narrative is that the issue is a problematic one for the Conservatives, if the Opposition (in this case the Liberals) aren't careful with their attacks on the matter, it can be a wedge issue, and a big one, for themselves. Those who are opposed to abortion are not monsters. it's not an easy issue for anyone to come to terms with, and to be see their leadership trot out with obvious arrogance and indifference an attack on the government on the abortion issue isn't going to be appealing to those MPs who voted against their own party, or the many, many, many Canadians – wherever they be on the political spectrum who are opposed to abortion.
Whiskey

However, it is important to me that our gov't was not allowed to whisk the word 'abortion' out of the discussion.

A woman's choice is too important for our representatives to take away with unseen tools.
Mike T.

The Liberals can affect discipline on the matter more easily than the conservatives can because their anti-woman fringe is smaller.
John D

And you said there'd be hyperbole…
Katherine

Well said. Abortion is and always will be a complicated moral issue, and one on which honest and sincere people can disagree. If the Liberals had allowed a free vote and lost it would have been one thing – it would have at least shown them respecting the convictions of their MPs. But trying to whip the vote, losing, and then punishing people who voted their consciences is not going to look good for them.
http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

You're proving my point about using hyperbole on this issue. You just referred to about half the country as anit-women.
http://intensedebate.com/people/jolyon jolyon

Why do you think Cons wanting to protect females babies from their murderous mothers is anti-woman?
Holly Stick

Anti-choice people are anti-woman. I doubt very much that half the country is anti-choice.
http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

Anti abortion and anti choice aren't one in the same,.
http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tigerinexile Ben (The Tiger)

Firstly, that would imply that more women are anti-woman than men, as women tend to be slightly (not by much) more pro-life than men.

Second, have you checked the polls on the specific issue:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/cana…

"But respondents were almost evenly split as to whether Mr. Harper's initiative should include funding for abortion services, with 48 per cent opposed and 46 per cent in favour."

And:
"Still, Liberals have to be careful since 40 per cent of the Grit supporters oppose funding abortions and a number of Liberal MPs are passionately pro-life."

If the opposition wants to make this a defining issue — well, I'm sure that Harper would settle for taking the 48% and leaving them to fight over the 46%… (Not happy, because he's probably pro-choice, his voters are majority pro-life, and his caucus probably is split about 50/50 on it, and that's never going to make for a fun caucus meeting.)
Holly Stick

Anti-choicers usually say that pro-choice = pro-abortion. Do you agree with such a statement?
wilson

Gee, it looks like 13 Liberal MPs are also happy so let women die.

90% of all deaths due to abortions could be prevented by access to contraceptives.
Contraception is the answer to the deaths, not Canadian funded abortions.
AT1

Despite your hyperbole, the aim of the maternal and child care proposal is to make a serious effort to help mothers BRING their child to term safely and to care for them during infancy in areas of the world where infant deaths are high.

Abortions are a rather poor substitute for pre- and postnatal care.
http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

No.
http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

Me of little faith, indeed!
Pat

Did you know most defence lawyers want middle aged women on their juries if the alleged crime is date rape?

Women are more likely to conclude the victim asked for it.

That's just the way it is.
Holly Stick

Cons are quite happy to let women die for lack of good reproductive health care, including contraception and safe abortions.
Holly Stick

Do you rebuke people for hyperbole when they claim that pro-choicers are killing babies?
Holly Stick

"…women tend to be slightly (if not by much) more pro-life than men…" Are you seriously claiming that a majority of women do not believe they should have control of their own bodies? That they should want some religious extremist men to control their bodies? I do not believe it. Do you have any evidence?
Holly Stick

I will repeat what many have said before until some of you ignoramuses learn to face reality: women in third world countries die because they have too many babies too quickly. When they die, their children are left as orphans and the children will probably die also. Access to safe abortions helps these women to stay healthy enough to look after the children they have. Yes, contraception is better when it works, but safe abortions also play a part in keeping these women healthy.

Refusing to fund contraception and safe abortions kills women.
http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tigerinexile Ben (The Tiger)

It's a general statistical tendency I've noticed in polls on the abortion issue over the years.

Mind you, I've only really followed American polls on this, because it's only Stateside that this is a politically salient issue — in Canada, both major parties have left the issue alone since the Senate killed the new abortion law in 1990 that was to replace the one struck down for vagueness in the 1989 Morgentaler case. (Canada has no law on abortion at present.)

But let's see if I can find some Canadian data. I'm pretty sure it should have the same trends, with Canadians being somewhat more pro-choice than their American counterparts.

Ah, here's one — Angus Reid did a poll in 2008:
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/half_of_cana…
The full dataset: http://www.angus-reid.com/uppdf/2008.06.20_Aborti…

"What is your personal feeling about abortion?"

Men — Permitted in all cases, 48%, Permitted, but with greater restrictions than now, 17%, Permitted only in cases of rape, incest, and to save the mother's life, 20%, Permitted only to save the woman's life, 8%, Not sure, 7%
Women — Permitted in all cases, 44%, Permitted w/ greater restrictions, 21%, Permitted only for rape, etc., 24%, Only to save the woman's life, 5%, Not sure, 6%.

Thus we have in the most pro-choice category — which is probably the only category someone with your views would call _really_ pro-choice — men at 48% and women at 44%.

Which shows us, as I expected, that women are marginally more pro-life than men.

I can attribute that to two tendencies: first, women are slightly more religious, on average, than men, and second, men are more reluctant to tell women what they can do with their bodies.
http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

The subject hasn't come up all that often in my day to day conversations. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at here.
http://intensedebate.com/people/sourstud sourstud

Don't feed the trolls.
Holly Stick

On numerous posts at Macleans in the past few days there have been arguments about abortion, contraception, etc. Some posters, such as Gaunilon, have repeatedly called abortion killing babies. I don't recall offhand who else has done so, probably the appalling Dennis-F and others. But I did note Gunilon talking about killing babies and someone praising him for the thoughfulness of his posts.

When women get angry at people who want to take away our rights over our bodies, people accuse us of road rage [some guy with an Oscar Wilde icon I think] and hysteria and hyperbole. I see this as the usual tactic of sexist men who want to silence women. I realise that some people are honestly concerned about wanting all commenters to be civil, but some seem to find it easier to rebuke women for getting angry than to rebuke men for assuming that they have the right to control women.
AT1

Who's refusing to fund contraception and abortion? NGOs who offer those services are presently funded by our government. It simply is not the aim of this program which is to aid women who WISH to have children.

Do you ever respond to any comment without wild accusations and attacks?
Holly Stick

Do you not follow the news in Canada? Conservative Ministers Cannon and Oda both said contraception would NOT be part of the maternal health package, although all the science shows that contraception is an important part of maternal hetlh. They then backed down and changed their story and are now weaselling around saying they won't close any doors..

So you can apologize for your wild accusation against me.
Holly Stick

American polls are of course useless because Canadians are not Americans and do not hold the same values in the same proportions. Your Angus Reid poll doesn't really justify saying that women are more pro-life, since there are gradations in there.

Wiki describes various polls which seem to change with the question asked. Note this one:

"…In a poll conducted by the National Post in November 2002, 78% of respondents answered "yes" to the question: "Should women have complete freedom on their decision to have an abortion?".[citation needed]…"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada#O…