Beyond The Commons

Beyond The Commons

Aaron Wherry covers all the goings-on in and around Parliament Hill. Follow Aaron on Twitter: @aaronwherry

The insight of Shelly Glover

by Aaron Wherry on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:27pm - 99 Comments

CBC’s Power & Politics reported this evening—available at the 24:30 mark here—on a study of current and projected prison spending by the Conservative government. To discuss the findings, the CBC turned—starting at the 28:40 mark—to a panel of MPs, including Conservative Shelly Glover. Ms. Glover, a former police officer, first suggested that “numbers can be skewed any which way you want, depending on who’s doing them.” She did, though, concede that spending will increase. Host Evan Solomon then moved on to Liberal Mark Holland and New Democrat Joe Comartin.

After Mr. Holland and Mr. Comartin had been permitted to offer their thoughts, Mr. Solomon turned back to Ms. Glover with a specific question about spending on rehabilitation. Ms. Glover’s answer was as follows.

There’s a problem when you talk about numbers. First and foremost, when you talk about that number you just provided, does that include things that perhaps don’t cost money? For example, in our prison systems, we promote reunification of families. That doesn’t cost a dime. We promote that our inmates visit counsellors when they need to speak to someone. That doesn’t cost a dime. So, again, numbers can be skewed any which way, but I do take issue with the misleading comments made by my colleagues. I worked in this system. I’ll tell you straightforward, Canadians are seeing an increase in crime. I don’t care what Stats Canada has reported because they only count reported crime. They do not count unreported crimes. And as a police officer, I’ll tell you, I worked sex crimes for four and a half years, 92% of sex crime victims do not report their crime. Because they don’t have faith in the justice system, they’re fearing retribution, they really do have a number of reasons for not reporting. And the other thing is, let’s not forget, the Liberals have an interest here because, predominantly, prison inmates vote Liberal during elections. Cops vote Conservative. There is a clear interest for the prisoners to be voting for soft on crime legislation that the Liberals put forward.

Sadly, CBC had to cut away then to a UN press conference.

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  • http://farnwide.blogspot.com/ SteveV

    I don't care what the statistics say, but I'll gladly offer up a statistic on unreported crime to make my point. Alright then.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

      If Helena Guergis resigns/gets canned, and Shelly Glover gets pegged as the replacement, the opposition parties won't be crying too much.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/LynnTO LynnTO

      Came here to post this.

      And until she went off on her diatribe about Liberal soft-on-crime legislation and how cops vote Conservative, I almost agreed with her.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/CanadianSense CanadianSense

      Looks like the "wafer" Liberals are out in force!

  • Eva

    I'm so ashamed of her

    • wilson

      I'm so proud of her.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Scott_Tribe Scott_Tribe

        Of course you are, wilson. Shelly doesnt let facts get in the way of making silly statements.. so it's a natural you'd admire her.

  • ajb

    I'd like to know how prisoners talking with counsellors doesn't cost a dime, too! I'm all in favour of them doing so, but counselling services have to cost something.

  • IMO

    Man, the truthiness here is reaching Stephen Colbert levels.

  • Gayle

    I wonder if she considered the fact that if only 8% of people report when they are the victim of a sexual offence, and if that number is going down, it means that the 92% of unreported offences are also going down.

    I would also like to see the hat she pulled that figure of 92% from.

    • cew

      To be more precise she would have to be implying that the ratio of reported to unreported was shifting towards more unreported crimes creating the illusion of falling crime rates even while they were rising (or staying constant). But given the massive amount of wharrgharbl she was spewing I highly doubt she had anything that sophisticated in mind.

      • Gayle

        I figured that, since it is easy to just say people are not reporting crime as much as they used to, what with there being no way to prove or disprove such a statement.

        Even relying on her background as a cop does not lend credence to what she is saying, because if people are not reporting crime to the police, how do the police know?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/bergkamp bergkamp

          "Every five years, Statistics Canada conducts the General Social Survey. It asks a representative sample of Canadians, among other things, whether they have been crime victims.

          From the last survey in 2004 (the next one is being conducted now, with the findings to be released next year) Statistics Canada reached the following conclusions.

          First, progressively fewer Canadians who are crime victims are reporting the crime to police — only 34% in 2004, compared to 37% in 1999.

          Second, based on the GSS, an estimated 92% of sexual assaults were never reported to police, 46% of break-ins, 51% of motor vehicle/parts thefts, 61% of physical assaults and 54% of robberies." Lorrie Goldstein, The Sun, Nov 2009

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

            So, her basic numbers on lack of reporting were mostly accurate, but her conclusions were way off base.

            The majority of unreported property crime has way more to do with "cops don't have time to investigate my broken window/stolen garden gnome/spray painted garage" and "my deductible is worth more than that GPS" than a giant crime wave sweeping us all away. And while there may be a drop in actual percentage, saying that "Canadians are seeing an increase in crime" is still bs…

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Blamo Blamo

            Aha, but then does the format of the GSS not refute her claim that (declining) crime rates are only because people are not reporting them?
            Asking whether you have been a victim of crime in the last five years would tend to capture reported *and* unreported crime, would it not?
            But then I suppose I could skew those statistics any way I wanted.

          • Gayle

            Hmm

            Right you are. That's what I get for spouting off before I do my research. That said, the difference in reporting was found to be statistically insignificant. Did Goldstein happen to mention that?

            I did look at the actual survey however, and discovered some interesting things. Did you know that the vast majority of Canadians are happy with our justice system and feel safe? I wonder why Glover did not mention that?

            http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-565-x/2005001/fin…

          • Gayle

            Oh, and she is way off base on the reasons for not reporting. Here are some interesting findings:

            http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-630-x/2008001/art…

            According to the General Social Survey (GSS), overall rates of violent victimization , including sexual assault, robbery and physical assault, remained stable between 1999 and 2004.

            In 2004, for the first time, the GSS asked Canadians to identify their sexual orientation. Compared to heterosexuals, the odds of experiencing a violent victimization were nearly 2 times greater for gays and lesbians and 4.5 times greater for bisexuals.

    • Dave

      Oh? It came from her hat?

      • Sigh

        She was sitting on it at the time.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

      "I would also like to see the hat she pulled that figure of 92% from."

      Out of her ass.

  • http://eugeneforseyliberal.blogspot.com EugeneForseyLiberal

    If she was going to say these things, she could at least have had the wit to claim we Liberals "have the prison inmate vote locked up". Or that Dion lost because "he couldn't get prison inmates out to vote".

    I'm sorry to learn, pace Teneycke, that numbers are in the tank for the Liberals. Also statistics. And empirical evidence.

    But luckily, the Cons have locked up these dangerous offenders. "The Conservatives, tough on wisdom, tough on the causes of wisdom."

  • Gayle

    "Because they don’t have faith in the justice system, they’re fearing retribution, they really do have a number of reasons for not reporting."

    And one of those reasons is they fear the reaction they will get from the police.

    Another is they fear being stigmatized – which has everything to do with the way our society looks at sex crime victims and not about the justice system. This is particularly true when you consider that many of the victims who do not report crimes are prostitutes.

  • am2010

    I hope the majority of officers in the Winnipeg Police service are smarter than this.

    • Reverend Blair

      Unfortunately, most of those I've met are just as dim-witted and prone to untruth as Glover is.

  • Craig O

    Ignoring the suggestion that criminals vote Liberal, I'm actually quite intrigued by the idea that unreported crimes are on the rise because victims don't have faith in the justice system. That seems quite plausible.

    However, that logic leads down a weird path – if we assume that many crimes are going unreported because of the justice system, and that the Conservatives tough-on-crime legislation would strengthen that justice system and hopefully restore some of that confidence, then a success on their part would result in an increase in reported crime. Now, that would be a good thing, because reported crimes are certainly better than unreported crimes and hopefully it would lead to a decrease in overall crime, but that would be a tough case to make. This little quote might be worth remembering for later…

    Of course, all that depends on the Conservatives' anti-crime legislation actually doing what they say it'll do, though most of the legislation doesn't look promising…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/mackenize mackenize

      Yes, Glover's argument does suggest that rising crime rates indicate that the Tories' 'tough on crime' legislation has been successful. Weird. So what's been happening with the crime rate since the Conservatives have been elected? Are they up or down? If down, does this mean we have to blame the –gasp– Liberal dominated Senate?

      • Gayle

        Not weird. It is a lie.

        By the way, crime is going down and has been doing so since the early 1990's.

      • Lord Kitchener's Own

        Glover's argument does suggest that rising crime rates indicate that the Tories' 'tough on crime' legislation has been successful..

        Uh, yeah. If we ignore the fact that crime rates are not rising, and we also ignore the fact that the Tories' "tough on crime" legislation hasn't been passed yet, that's exactly what her arguments suggest, lol.

        Am I missing something, mackenzie, or did your comment basically amount to: "Glover's argument suggests that 'effect X' (which isn't actually happening) was caused by 'cause Y' (which hasn't happened yet)"?

        We may suddenly be in an episode of Star Trek, but you seem to be suggesting that an event which is still in our future can be shown, today, to have caused something to have changed in the past (or the present), so as to ensure that something that isn't happening today, will have been happening today, by the time we get to the future, and somehow, we'll all remember it having been that way today, even though it isn't that way today, because at some point in the future, the Tories "tough on crime" legislation will get passed and, I don't know, emit a burst of tachyon particles or something, and cause the April 7th, 2010 reality we know now to be different from the April 7th we'll know then…

        Man, I hate temporal paradoxes.

        • mackenize

          I was mocking Glover's argument. If her argument is correct (and I don't think it is) then low crime rates indicate that crimes aren't being reported but still happening.

    • Gayle

      And how do you measure whether unreported crimes are rising? I could not help but notice Ms. Glover did not tell us anything about where she got that little tidbit.

      I know of no statistics on unreported crime, and if none exist, how does one determine if unreported crime is going up?

      • ajb

        For that matter, if unreported crime is rising, shouldn't THAT be the object of government action? If the statistics are anything like 92% going unreported, then increasing the reporting rate could do a lot more to make Canada safer than anything done with the 8% of cases that ARE reported!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/bergkamp bergkamp

        "I know of no statistics on unreported crime …… "

        Look harder, Gayle.

        "Every five years, Statistics Canada conducts the General Social Survey. It asks a representative sample of Canadians, among other things, whether they have been crime victims.

        From the last survey in 2004 (the next one is being conducted now, with the findings to be released next year) Statistics Canada reached the following conclusions.

        First, progressively fewer Canadians who are crime victims are reporting the crime to police — only 34% in 2004, compared to 37% in 1999.

        Second, based on the GSS, an estimated 92% of sexual assaults were never reported to police, 46% of break-ins, 51% of motor vehicle/parts thefts, 61% of physical assaults and 54% of robberies." The Sun, Nov 2009

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

          And again, while your numbers are accurate, her conclusions, usingyour numbers, namely "Canadians are seeing an increase in crime" is still bs…

          Your own research does not support that crime is on the rise.

        • MacLean's Regular

          These surveys are based on self-reporting. I'm not sure if someone who answers that they didn't report a crime is necessarily aware of what constitutes a crime to begin with or one that would rise to a court case.

          The surveys are measuring perceptions of crime more than actual crime itself. And we all know, based on how the media reports crime, that those perceptions are heavily distorted.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/ZestyMordant ZestyMordant

    Paging Tina Fey, paging Tina Fey… Tina Fey to Canada please.

  • Anon Liberal

    Definite Cabinet material.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/SamDavies SamDavies

      Meet the new Guergis.

  • Teesen

    I watched the interview and the stupidity was all around. Glover did not seem to think through what she was saying and CBC from the outset made it clear that spending more on prisons was a bad thing, because rates were going down despite the ombudsman’s assertion that prison infrasture has long been neglected.

  • Dave

    Someone ought to ask her how she knows how prisoners vote, given that their ballots, under Special Voting Rules, are lumped in and counted with Canadian Forces electors.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/OntarioTown OntarioTown

      Good point. What ever happened to privacy and voting?

    • Justin

      Why do you hate our troops?

    • Anon Liberal

      You know this govt spent a gazillion dollars on polling last year, right?

      • Dave

        They must have spent closer to $1.3 gazilion in order to get a statistically meaningful sample of incarcerated voters.

    • MacLean's Regular

      It's the little things like that make everything Glover says dubious.

  • Justin

    Thank God the Conservatives are really pushing mandatory minimums then. An increase in the prison population might be the only chance for the Liberals to finally knock off Harper.

    • Jon Pertwee

      ho ho har har, such a kneeslapper…

      • common man

        I know, I thought it was a real witty remark when I first read it too then I remembered….there`s probably some Lib staffer reading these comments and, as of this moment, I`ll bet the Libs are planning a campaign strategy to capture the inmate vote.

    • Big Winnie

      I bow to the wisdom of Ms Glover…HAHAHA.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/WDM WDM

    Maybe some day the politics shows will realize what a waste of time MP panels are.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Blamo Blamo

      Agreed.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/hardmouth hardmouth

      It would be fine if the interviewers didn't allow statements like Glover's to stand. Can you imagine if instead of cutting away to another MP for a response the interviewer stopped and examined what was just said?

      • MacLean's Regular

        That's why I don't bother with television news anymore. There's just no time for that.

    • AT1

      I wish they would do away with them entirely.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Geiseric Geiseric

    Is there a word for when a stereotype speaks in stereotypes?

    • Sigh

      "typical"

  • Wascally Wabbit

    Of course – it goes without saying that Shelley Glover was the CPC MP who Justin Trudeau sparred with on CTV's Question Period last Sunday. Jane "Viper" posed a stacked question to Trudeau about the "thinker's conference". Justin spent some time reponding to the specific question – and then was effectively cut off by the Viper – in the interests of equal time don't cha know – and passed the ball to Ms. Glover. the CPC MP then did the usual "School of Peter Van Loan" and didn't answer the question but launched into a spiel of PMO talking points related to the Abrotive Aborrtion vote among other matters. The Viper didn't attempt to contain her (after all – which side is CTV on?) and then Justin had the temerity to try to interrupt this cheap partisan drivel – at which Ms. Glover got all hoity toity and sniffed – I have the floor – please let me finish!
    Don't worry Ms. Glover – I think you'll be finished soon enough – at least political career wise!

    • AT1

      It must have been a different episode from the one I watched on Sunday – Justin Trudeau came off a self-satisfied, pompous jerk.

  • Wascally Wabbit

    Oh – and by the way – my daughter was a therapist in a sexual assault / rape clinic for 12 years before she burnt out!
    What she and her colleagues think about the typical police officer's sensitivity in handling the investigation of sexual assaults as a class of crime would fill the Encyclopedia Brittanica – and it wouldn't be complementary of the work of police officers like Ms. Glover!

  • Amateur Hour

    Ms. Glover is a medical miracle: ambulatory while dead from the neck up. Sadly, she's not just a dimwit MP spewing stupidity on TV. She's following, in lock step, the statements and beliefs of our so-called intelligent PM, Stephen Harper, the Justice Minister and the Conservative Party. The know the facts aren't on the side of their ideology (just ask Ian Brodie), so they ignore them and state proven falsehoods as a new truth for the common man, complete with Hollywood backdrop:

    "Some try to pacify Canadians with statistics. Your personal experiences and impressions are wrong, they say; crime is really not a problem. These apologists remind me of the scene from the Wizard of Oz when the wizard says, 'Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.' But Canadians can see behind the curtain. They know there's a problem. And they know it was caused by a generation of lawmakers who embraced the bizarre notion that the rights of criminals outweigh the rights of law-abiding citizens."

    Note the signs of a fabricator. "Some people say" … first set up the strawman. Then cast the people who report facts, ironically Justice and law enforcement agencies, as "apologists". Then affirm to those in the audience that their prejudices and personal biases are more accurate than, well, facts. Then accuse lawmakers of something none of them has ever believed, that criminals should have MORE rights than other citizens (hey, why stop at one strawman argument). Indeed, imply that they are somehow perverse and "bizarre".

    I personally love it when a man who has spent his entire adult life as a lawmaker and politician and (if he's to be believed), an expert in statistics — he's a "trained economist!" — accuses lawmakers and politicians (and statisticians) of being part of the problem.

    Honestly, this is simply untenable. Stephen Harper and his cronies are vandals and liars. You don't even need to imply anything about them or their beliefs to reach this conclusion. There's no hidden agenda. The proof flows from their own mouths like a toxic river.

    • common man

      dimwit… stupidity…vandals ….liars….toxic…..Are these the new talking points of the Liberal Party ? Was the whole point of this Thinkers conference to have Trudeau show up and use insulting language and give the OK for the fan club above to throw around equally insulting language ?

      Is the new face of the Liberal Party one of hysterical anger like that shown by the confusing flamboyance of Trudeau ?

      • MacLean's Regular

        "dimwit… stupidity…vandals ….liars….toxic…..Are these the new talking points of the Liberal Party ?"

        No. Just empirical observations.

        I *wish* the opposition MP's used language like that. We'd be spared all the convolutions and contortions required to avoid what is a plain as the nose on anyone's face.

  • ex canuck

    We will get some relief from this warped and twisted nonsense when, oh happy day, Power and Politics Nouveau lands in the dustbin of history.

  • John W.

    Good question for Nicholson in QP from mackenzie comment: If your tough on crime legislation is all passed, will crime rates go up or down?

  • Anon001

    Why are we spending so much time on the inconsequential ramblings of a noname backbencher?

    • Amateur Hour

      Also, the PM has advocated the same views: ignore the facts, trust your fears.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/PolJunkie PolJunkie

      Because, if Harper is true to form, this one will likely end up in Cabinet.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/YYZ YYZ

    I find it odd that she implicitly connected tougher prison sentences with unreported crime reduction.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/PeteTong PeteTong

    I think she's a Parliamentary Secretary and therefore a few notches up on the totem pole from a noname backbencher. That said I'm too lazy to look it up.

  • AT1

    The Liberals seem to think that crime statistics only count when talking about our penal system, but not when thoughts on Parliament hill turn to the value of the gun registry.

    • wilson

      Exactly.

    • Someone Else

      I recall recently that either "Power & Politics" or "Power Play" recently had either a major person within a police organization, or someone important from an over-arching police association/group who didn't know where the Conservatives were coming from when it came to dismantling the long-gun registry. They went on to describe how frequently is was used by agencies mainly for ensuring that licenses wouldn't expire, or that if someone's did expire that they re-registered the weapon.

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