So now, it’s no business of the state

Funny that the ‘Toronto Star’ writer had the opposite view when it came to my columns

by Mark Steyn on Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:00am - 217 Comments
So now, it's no business of the state

Photograph by Rebecca Cook/Reuters

Quebec’s move to nix the niqab continues to tie Canada’s commentariat in knots. The funniest column to date was by Haroon Siddiqui, “editorial page editor emeritus” of the Toronto Star. Mr. Siddiqui was not impressed by the arguments mounted against the head-to-toe body bag—for example, the notion that it is a “symbol of oppression”:

“Let’s assume that it is,” he wrote. “Whose business is it to end the practice—that of the state?”

That’s pretty cute coming from a guy who, during this magazine’s long battle with Canada’s “human rights” commissions, argued at length that it was most certainly the business of the state to end the practice of Maclean’s carrying Islamophobic Steyn columns. If the state can regulate what you write and say and think and even (as in the lesbian heckler case at the British Columbia Tribunal) what you quip, it can most certainly regulate what you wear. In Canada, it would be quicker to list what isn’t the business of the state. “The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation,” said Pierre Trudeau, unless, of course, you’re tucked up with a nice mug of cocoa reading an Islamophobic edition of Maclean’s. It was a classic bit of Trudeaupian legerdemain: if you’re allowed to roger anything that moves, or doesn’t, according to taste, you won’t notice all the other parts of your life the state has a place in. In Canada, it’s the state’s business when you get your hip operation, not yours: if the state has jurisdiction over your hip, why shouldn’t it also have jurisdiction over which garments the hip can be sheathed in? In Canada, a resident alien is not permitted to own a bookstore, on grounds of cultural protection. If “cultural protection” can prohibit a homosexual from San Francisco opening up a gay bookstore in Vancouver, why can’t it also extend to a Muslim woman’s dress?

And Quebec is Canada without even the residual restraints of the Britannic inheritance. In the interests of la collectivité, the province regulates not only the public usage of language but the very size of lettering in which your words can be displayed. If the state has power to set a maximum font on the ladies’ room door, why can’t it also set a limit on the yards of cloth you have to hoist up once you get in there?

Until Jean Charest decided to take the crimping shears to the niqab, Mr. Siddiqui had never met a statist initiative he wasn’t hot for. But statism is never about principle, only about power. Tyranny is always whimsical. If you’re an unemployed loser living in his parents’ basement in Dead Moose Junction and you put up a blog post saying Jews are vermin who should be kicked out of Canada, the Dominion’s heroic “human rights” champion Richard Warman will haul you up before the state commissars and destroy your life. But, if you’re Salman Hossain, alumnus of the universities of both Toronto and York, and you call Jews the “scum of the earth” and argue that “a genocide should be perpetrated against the Jewish populations of North America and Europe,” the valiant Prince Richard and the knights of the Canadian “Human Rights” Commission’s round table are curiously reluctant to saddle up. If you’re the genial young lads caught on tape outside Palestine House in Mississauga the other day taunting Jews with threats of another Holocaust, not only does the Canadian state turn a blind eye, it actively subsidizes this genial contribution to “diversity” with your tax dollars.

Statism is muscle. In Trudeaupia, that muscle has usually been applied against the political right. During the Ann Coulter fiasco a week or two back, Michael Lefive wrote to explain to me that I had a defective understanding of Canadian “freedom”:

“I find it interesting how freedom of expression is so poorly understood. I feel just as free saying you do not know what you are talking about as I would saying you’re an ignorant f–k.
“The question revolves around simple civility and the freedom of expression provided by a language’s potential for alternatives. I have lived in both Canada and the U.S., and the Canadian approach revolves around civility and inclusion of human differences while providing as broad an arena for opinion as I have found in the U.S.

“Canadians freely expressed themselves. Ann Coulter is not welcomed. That IS freedom of expression! Hate-mongers need not apply.”

Putting aside the fact that the only fellow using the words “ignorant f–k” is the guy bragging about his “civility and inclusion of human differences,” note what M. Lefive’s “simple civility” boils down to—labelling me and Miss Coulter as “hate-mongers” who “do not know what you are talking about.” Gee, with that kind of simple civility, why don’t we just cut to the bar fight? Likewise, Haroon Siddiqui airily attributes the anti-niqab campaign to “an unholy alliance of leftist feminists, right-wing bigots and Quebec nationalists.” “Bigots,” huh? Even in an unholy alliance, some allies are less legiti­mate than others. Mr. Siddiqui’s friends in public universities, in state media, in government agencies, in taxpayer-funded agitprop groups and the rest of bien pensant Canada have no problem labelling people as beyond the pale. Siddiqui’s mistake was in assuming he and the state would always see eye to eye about whom it was okay to revile.

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  • Alexander

    How ironic would it be if Quebec were to save Canadian culture!

    • Marty

      It wouldn't be the last time. I am convinced that, if it wasn't for Quebec, the rest of Canada would have become a much more highly centralised federal state, rather than a confederation that respects regional diversity, albeit sometimes grudgingly.

      • NOVA SCOTIAN

        THAT IS SO TRUE THANKS QUEBEC!

    • Margaret

      I have always said – thank God for Quebec. They're our 'canary in the coal mine', and they're more aware of what Ottawa is doing than the rest of us are.

    • jdude

      What culture? What does it mean to call yourself Canadian? Thanks Trudeau, you were a great PM.

    • Kris

      Somebody has to.

  • ddd

    Since this is Canada, why doesn't the government pay women to not wear a niqab?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

    I'm confused. So its okay for the Quebec government to ban niqabs because you agree with the ban, but its not okay for any of the 'statist' actions you disagree with?

    Freedom goes both ways, Mr. Steyn. You don't get to cry foul over your freedom of speech being trampled by the HRC, and then advocate for a niqab ban. Well, this is Canada so I guess you can cry foul all you want, but you'd be a hypocrite.

    • GNT

      Did you not you read the article? Read the last paragraph again.

    • Fox

      Nowhere in this piece does Steyn express his opinion about the niqab ban in Quebec. Perhaps he doesn't even have an opinion. That's not the point of this piece. There are a couple of points he is making…1) The hypocisy of Haroon Siddiqui and 2) Canadians of European descent for generations have been mixing the ingredients for their cultural demise and are now beginning to understand it. However, its probably too late to do anything about it now, short of forcing mass emigration of Canadian Muslims who are descendants of the Middle East and Africa. Its too late.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

        Perhaps he doesn't even have an opinion

        He's "with the ‘intolerant’ Quebecers."

    • bob k. mando

      you really are retarded.

      "Jean Charest’s heavy-handed opportunism is in the grand tradition of Canadian statism."

      all Mark said is that statists ( here, Jean Charest ) are doing in this case ( the niqab wars ) what statists always do. at the beginning of the paragraph, Mark even points out that the niqab debate is a DISTRACTION from the real issues. Mark repeatedly states in this article that once you agree to the right of the state to censure political speech, this is the expected outcome.

      Mark's position is that IF Canada wasn't in the hip deep in the speech courts THEN this subject would never have arisen. the justification for the first is the very principle by which the statists justify their intrusions in the second.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 Not Guilty

        No Mark Steyn is in support of the ban, just not in this article because then RunningGag's statement would be blatantly correct. He is very sneaky.

    • Mike T.

      A very reasonable analysis.

    • Poker Face

      You can easily understand why one fails and one doesn't without even having to resort to argument. Just look at the Charter:

      Banning hate speech (in the Criminal Code) is narrow enough to be minimally impairing on our s. 2 rights, and thus passes the s.1 test. It is a reasonable limit.

      The HRT is much broader, and thus does not pass the minimal impairment test (R. v. Oakes, for those interested). In short, there are much less intrusive methods of legislating against hate speech in the HRT context.

      The niqab ban is a pressing and substantial objective of promoting a secular society in quebec, and promoting the ability of the government to identify citizens requesting services. The limit is rationally connected to the end they wish to acheive, it is also proportionate between the infringement and the goal of the legislation. It is also minimally impairing by restricting the ban to public lands where government services are requested. (You could also argue under s.2 that the niqab is not actually a nexus of religious practice for muslims. You should also keep in mind that there exists no "hierarchy of rights" in Canada. So freedom of religion is never a trump card. Nor is freedom of expression. This is why we have things like s.1 and s.27 in the Charter.)

      There, Mark's right and you're wrong, and I didn't even need to get political about it.

      • Mike T.

        Except that the supreme court disagreed with your interpretation of hate speech in the Taylor case, which dealt with the Federal tribunal.

        And your interpretation regarding whether the niqab ban is reasonable questionable at the very least. Social order? Prove it. promoting a secular society to the extent of banning religious symbols may in itself be an unconstitutional aim. Decisions regarding Kirpans and turbans (and even to some extent hutterite drviers licenses) show the bar is very high.

        • Poker Face

          You're referring to two cases here.

          Multani (Kirpan case) – here the principle was affirmed that you need a nexus of practice associated with the religious belief infringed by legislation.

          Hutterian Brethren of Wilson Colony (drivers licences): In this case the Supreme Court ruled that infringements on the freedom of religion for the purposes of identification for the prevention of fraud is a justified infringement. (This is the ratio and is binding on all lower courts in Canada.)

          • Mike T.

            I'm referring to more than two cases. As far as I can tell, you are using your imagination.

          • Poker Face

            Oh, uh, sorry that wasn't like a rebuke… it was just information just in case other readers were looking for context.

            I'm not up on the taylor case, and don't have time to read it… so i can't really comment on it.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

        There, Mark's right and you're wrong, and I didn't even need to get political about it.

        Seriously? Citizens' rights are not a science. Rights are set arbitrarily based on the existing cultural norms. There is no such thing as right or wrong in this debate.

        As for the rest of your post, you'll have to forgive me if I take Mr. Steyn's position on immigrant assimilation and assume that, given the opportunity, he would be more than amenable to an all out ban of the Niqab. Which, frankly, is the likely eventual next step of this legislation.

        • Frankyb

          So revolt against monarchy, in order to install democracy and freedom, was part of our past european medieval cultural norms ???

          Rigths are set arbitrarily ? So to you freedom of speach, or the equality between man and women have no other cause of existance than because "we designed them arbitrarily based on our cultural norms" ?

          You got it so wrong, our current rights where designed carefully, throught time, by the enlightened in the past few centuries, based on the acceptance and observation of the reality of the nature of man. Not on some cultural whims! These were established throught the use of rationality and selected because they offer the best outcome for man to live to its fullest. Do you read political – philosphical history much?

          No wonder you want to relativize right and wrong when you got it soo wrong…

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            So revolt against monarchy, in order to install democracy and freedom, was part of our past european medieval cultural norms ???

            Yes. It was an evolution of the cultural norms to a point at which groups of men decided that they were no longer happy with the rights given to them by their government.

            Rigths are set arbitrarily ? So to you freedom of speach, or the equality between man and women have no other cause of existance than because "we designed them arbitrarily based on our cultural norms" ?

            Correct. We give these rights value in our culture. These rights don't necessarily have value in other cultures, nor did they hold value in the past.

            You got it so wrong, our current rights where designed carefully, throught time, by the enlightened in the past few centuries, based on the acceptance and observation of the reality of the nature of man. Not on some cultural whims! These were established throught the use of rationality and selected because they offer the best outcome for man to live to its fullest. Do you read political – philosphical history much?

            Rights were not designed. They evolved over time. The only reason we have the ones we do now isn't because we carefully crafted them, or that we somehow are inherently better. They were demanded. Groups got together and forced concessions. Through this process the culture adapted and new mores became norms.

          • hitnrun

            What an odd altar you worship at. The notion that rights "evolved over time" is self-evidently false, and could only be held by someone who has been indoctrinated from childhood into a virulent strain of absolutist relativism and linear history. Every right you have is the result of a war or political uprising (though as a Canadian, nearly all of them happened somewhere else) fomented around assertions of the nature of man. Calling this "evolution" is contemptible semantics at best, as though evolution were something like that depicted in the Pokemon franchise; at worst it is a deliberate conflation of innate humanity with material necessity in history and pragmatism with morality in the human condition.

            Rights have always existed; governmental recognition of them is what has "evolved over time". Perhaps this misunderstanding is a symptom of living in a nation that considers vast and varied transfers of wealth from the economic production of some to others who produce less to be full-blown "rights."

            Here's a shorthand guide for you: rights cannot be given, nor can they be taken away, by any human being. If someone has to give it to you, it's not a right. If a hermit doesn't have access to it, it's not a right. If a nuclear war were to happen tomorrow, and your city survives but you find yourself short of rights, they weren't rights; they were governmental entitlements.

            About the best thing that can be said about your school of thought is that it leads to only one certainty: its total obliteration at the hands of those whom it empowers but who do not share its faith.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            I've mostly been ignoring responses that have personal attacks in them, but I wanted to point this part out:

            Rights have always existed; governmental recognition of them is what has "evolved over time".

            If someone has to give it to you, it's not a right.

            You don't see a contradiction here? If its a right that can't be taken away, then government recognition shouldn't matter.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

          All right, I'll call your bluff then. You like the niqab, what it represents, and you think anyone who is Muslim and not directly a part of your immediate family should don it proudly. You see a shadow woman walking four feet behind her husband, dressed in Westen clothes, and don't blink an eye. Or you don't see any of this because you live in a white township.
          .

          • RunningGag

            You couldn’t be more wrong about my view of women. As for where I live, I’m not sure how that’s relevant.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            Your point of view is a direct consequence of your experiences, one of which includes 'where you live.'

            Your 'view on women' remains unelaborated. I can only assume that my point, that being that no thinking person supports niqab-wearing Islamicists, stands. Until the Western disapora begins embracing the niqab and burka, that is actually wearing them, I see only hypocrisy and tolerant-baiting caterwauling arising from its defence. I say let the Muslim people stand up and oppose this ban if they so choose; everyone else seems to be saying it's none of our concern, so I wonder if all the hullaballo is just an exercise in moral superiority.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            I can only assume that my point, that being that no thinking person supports niqab-wearing Islamicists, stands.

            I don't support the Niqab. I support the freedom to chose. It has nothing to do with tolerance, and everything to do with not being willing to force others to behave as I would have them behave. What people want to do to themselves is their business so long as it doesn't interfere in the rights of others.

            That isn't to say that I won't continue to be an outspoken proponent for womens' rights. Or that I won't continue to tell people that religion 'poisons everything'. But I don't believe in legislating my personal morality.

            And I won't be bullied into changing that belief by a bunch of thinly veiled name calling either. So if that's all you (and the rest of the 'Oh, he's just a retard' crowd) have got, then don't bother responding because its not going to change anyone's mind.

          • Poker Face

            First off, I don't think you're a retard, you argue very well.

            I think the balance we're looking for is tough to see properly. One the one hand, you have the burqa/niqab being seen just like any other clothing, with a right to choose freely what you don. That's a fair interpretation; and on it's face, the right one.

            The other hand is still apparent but less 'empirically verifiable' (for lack of a better term) because it's often seen as a tool of repression of women's rights and an outward sign of subjugation to men, though no one experiencing it first hand would say as much. It also gets a lot of press as being linked to radical Islam (and all the exploding 22 years olds that comes with.) Some see it as an implied threat against our open and liberal culture. Is it a pressing and substantial concern? In many respects, yes, but some say it goes too far.

            I think we may have to agree to disagree, but I can see your points as being valid.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/adb215 Not Guilty

        You have the right tests, but lets leave it to the courts to determine if this is in fact a pressing and substantial concern that is rationally connected and proportionate. If the SCC will let a Sikh man carry a kirpan, I bet you they will let women decide to wear a face covering. Go look that case up too.

    • smithcreek

      I think you definitely summed things up with your first two words. Honestly, this article wasn't that hard to understand, try again.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

    So its okay to ban things if its part of a culture war?

    • Bob

      Apparently the Canadian education system is as bad as the American.

      True or False: If a A are B then all B are A.

  • JohnTheAthiest

    Canada has surely become that pot of boiling statist water filled with oblivious, happy-faced frogs. Steyn is the most delightfully articulate frog of a small group that aren't so oblivious. The irony of the PQ's Islamist slave-tent ban is delicious.

  • tiger

    it doesn't matter. common sense will never prevail in this "country". anywhere else in the world, a province that has tried to secede would be occupied with tanks. here, we reward them with transfer payments.

    what difference does it make whether we agree or disagree with the niqab ban?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

    Steyn's point about the niqab ban (or any other arbitrary clothing restriction) being a direct logical consequence of leftismis bang on. It's been very amusing to watch people who support the HRC/HRT commissars opposing the niqab ban.

    This is also why some of us have been arguing consistently that you can't oppose hate-speech regulation, as Steyn does (and I do), without also opposing the niqab ban. (usual caveat applied: except in cases where ID is required, etc.)

    • Mike T.

      This is only true if one is incapable of drawing a distinction between engaging in hate speech and the exercise of religious freedom by placing clothes on one's own person. I have trouble finding the similarity, in fact, and "areas in which some people have suggested laws" seems a pretty vague convergence point.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        It's not a meaningful distinction. Society in Quebec has decided that the niqab is a form of hate-dress because they find it offensive. The HRC/HRT arbitrarily decides that certain expressed opinions are hate-speech because someone finds them offensive. Who cares whether it's "clothes on one's person" or "words in one's mouth"? Either way, it's just the majority enforcing their perceived right not to be offended on the minority.

        • Mike T.

          I suppose in some way you could make this argument generally, it's just not factually relevant in this case. Manner of dress could come very very close to hate speech, in fact. I hope can bring up the example of prominently wearing a swashtika without being accused of being Godwinned.

          Common sense, however, prevents wearing a muslim headpiece from being interpreted in such a manner.
          As has already been clearly shown without any plausible rebuttal, the legal system of courts and tribunals is doing an exemplary job of making the distinction.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

          The people of Quebec may find the niqab a form of hate-dress, but the bill does not even name it explicitly. There's no ban in effect now or in the future. The poll results are being combined with the bill's contents and it's not a fair melding. Show your face for services rendered. If I were a shopkeeper, I would demand the same. But this is yet a tiny stopper in the leaking multiculti ark and does not redress the overarching problem, that of immigration and integration. It may indeed be too late to do anything about what is mathematically inevitable.

    • JoeC

      One could just as easily argue that it is the logical consequence of the right's (excluding libertarians) desire for social control. The average conservative in Canada and the States is hardly bastion of personal liberty (i.e. "traditional" marriage, the role of women, birth control, etc.).

      I know that demonizing the left is a favourite pastime of some here, but there a lots of members of both camps who reach too far. In fact, traditionally, conservatives were all about social control, while liberals were the defenders of personal liberty.

      Where Steyn is wrong is that this ban does not come out of the grand tradition of statism, it comes from the grand tradition of hatred/fear of Muslims. Steyn is an unapologetic member of the latter camp (though I don't think he should be banned from writing – I just wouldn't hire him to write for my magazine).

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Gaunilon Gaunilon

        "One could just as easily argue that it is the logical consequence of the right's (excluding libertarians) desire for social control.

        No one could not. The traditional marriage debate was about whether the state should get involved in even more sexual relationships than it already was, not about personal freedom. I know of no conservative movement to ban contraceptives, and I have no idea what you're referring to with "the role of women".

        It is the Left that supports the notion of legislating "offensive" behaviour, where "offensive" means "arbitrarily disliked by some powerful lobby group". From this we get hate-speech laws and now regulations on style of clothing. It's no coincidence that Quebec, our most left-leaning province, is the one leading the charge on this.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

          Yes one can. Conservatism is not libertarianism. Conservatism seeks a return to 'traditional values', which, by their nature, require social control. Right-leaning ideologies start at anything other than the status quo, and go all the way to fascism. Just as left-leaning ideologies start at anything other than status quo (on the progressive side) and go all the way to communism (well, not theoretical communism, but whatever it was that the Russians had).

          Libertarians aren't on the traditional political spectrum, they don't have a right / left lean. The only thing that makes a libertarian is that they don't want the government messing around in the affairs of individuals.

          • JohnTheAthiest

            Yes they are. Libertarians are what Liberals used to be a century or so ago before the progressives and statists hijacked the name. Many fiscally conservative – socially liberal individuals gravitate towards libertarianism.

            There is no coherent left-right description of political leanings. On a linear continuum, there is only liberty to statism. On a two dimensional matrix of civil liberties versus economic liberties there are amorphous overlapping blobs (connecting their policy dots) depicting traditional Parties. Communism, fascism, and socialism (along with much of the coverage of the major political parties in Canada) are all in the opposite quadrant of libertarianism.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            If you want to do a two dimensional spectrum then sure. Most people don't understand a two dimensional political spectrum though, they only do left and right.

            For those interested in seeing it, here's an example from Wikipedia:
            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thu…

        • JoeC

          You should read up on your political history and theory. Even a cursory read of either would be enlightening for you.

          That you think that the majority opposed to same-sex marriage weren't doing so based on religious grounds (i.e. the world will go to hell, Sodom and Gomorra, etc.) is bizarre. And the movement by conservatives in the States to make contraceptives unavailable (not to mention makeup) is pretty well known – it was even reported about in this publication within the past few days! And you've never heard of conservative groups like Real Women? You need to get out more!

          I know that you want to think that all of your conservative brethren are libertarians, but the reality is that you are a minority. You should read up on what the majority of conservatives think.

          And try to nuance your positions a bit too. I would be considered "left" by most, but I don't think that the government has any business trying to protect people from being offended.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

          Don't forget the language laws, which were found to be unconstitutional as well, and are a complete disgrace for a supposedly free society.

  • citizen

    I have never been a fan of Quebec due to their laws. This ban, however, makes perfect sense. I might just learn the language move there.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

      Could you clarify your point?

      I'm reading that you are so enamored by this law that you would ignore everything else you think is wrong with Quebec. Not only that, but that it is such a fantastic piece of legislation that you may actually move to a different province just so you can be in a jurisdiction that restricts the use of the Niqab.

      Can you explain for me what it is exactly that makes you so opposed to the Niqab that you would incur all kinds of financial and personal inconvenience just to live within a province that restricts it use? And, had you thought of moving to France?

      • Mark G.

        I work in a large regional University Hospital which includes a well respected children's hospital. I am required to wear (as are millions of other people) a photo ID badge to help insure the safety and security of patients and visitors – especially (in my mind anyway) that of the children.
        One recent day while walking down a public corridor in the children's hospital, I came upon a young woman dressed in jeans and a knit top and with her ID badge hanging from a lanyard around her neck. I don't know what she looked like because on her head she was wearing a black cloth that totally covered all of her features – i think this is "the niqab" referred to in the article.
        My thoughts were…
        1. Why does my identity need to be known when her's isn't?
        2 .This person could just as easily be a pediatrician as a psycho-child killer.
        3. I wonder what kind of world my grandchildren will inherit?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

          It should be noted that, given the desire, any security system based on a photo can be easily beaten. Certainly a head-covering does the trick, but so does five minutes with a computer and a colour printer.

          • Bill Simpson

            Yes indeed. And if he was fitted with wheels, he could be used as tea-trolley. So much for his photo ID then!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            Let us just abolish this whole ID nonsense if all it takes is a computer to override it. In fact, let's just impose anarchy because if there's a will, there's a disrespectful assh*le looking to find the way.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            The suggestion that the previous poster made was that the sky is falling because he can't compare a person's face to their ID card. My point is that ID card is an incredibly weak security measure in the first place, and that almost anyone with some basic equipment can get around it.

            The point is that unless you want to have everyone give fingerprints any time they need to be identified, there is always going to be ways to get around security mechanisms. You need to have multiple layers of security, not the least of which needs to be that people who work in a place need to ask questions and be familiar with others that work there.

            If you want to be sarcastic, why don't you try focusing on the sky-falling, 'won't somebody think of the children!?!?!?!' comment.

          • Mark G.

            So some people are OK with hooded people wandering the corridors of hospitals. It only follows suit that I felt resentment and anger because I am a middle aged angry white Christian man who enjoys all the benefits of White Privilege yet gets sucked-up when a person of non-aged, non-white, non-Christian, non-maleness exercises the the basic human right to choose to conceal her identity in a sensitive area, because to do otherwise would be an act of aggression against her culture.
            Perhaps if I enter a re-education program ASAP, I can become a more enlightened person in this lifetime.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            Yes, some people are okay with people being able to wear whatever clothes they feel is best for them.

            You'll have to explain how the rest of your comment follows. Maybe you can connect the dots for me.

        • Dave

          This is, to me, the crux of the argument.

          A woman should be free to wear whatever she wants- from a thong to a niquab. Or both at the same time. If people want to stay in a 7th century mindset that is also fine.

          However, when in public in this part of the world the face must be seen. I cannot walk into a store, bank or public building wearing a balaclava. I can wear one at home if I wish, or among friends. (I don't know why I might want to do that…)I can also walk around naked at home or in specifically-designated places- but not in public, and certainly not in a children's hospital.

          It is reasonable to insist that the face be shown. It's too bad that the absurd, twisted PC "logic" of the multi-culti set trumps all other concerns.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            I cannot walk into a store, bank or public building wearing a balaclava.

            That argument isn't valid. For one thing, just because you can't wear a balaclava, doesn't make it okay for any other face covering to be banned. It just means that you can't wear a balaclava. In fact, the reverse argument could be made: If person can wear a Niqab, you should be able to wear a balaclava.

            Secondly, in general, balaclava wearers entering these buildings are intending to do harm. You cannot say the same about Niqab wearers.

            It's too bad that the absurd, twisted PC "logic" of the multi-culti set trumps all other concerns.

            My objection has nothing to do with multiculturalism. It has everything to do with the freedom of individuals to do what they want so long as they aren't infringing on the rights of others.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            His argument IS valid. The Criminal Code designates a charge dealing especially with disguises, which is exactly what the niqab is.

            Second, we don't turn the rules around just because we've now found ourselves being inundated with another culture's "traditions." You cannot walk around wearing a balaclava, a niqab, or a Halloween mask and expect to have services rendered. Where exactly do you think you're going to go wearing a balaclava? The library? You would be turned away and rightly because, like it or not, Muslim or infidel, in Canada it is rude and potentially criminal to hide your identity. All you've done is deemed one ethnicity or religious group eligible for wearing a disguise and all others not. I'm looking at it from the imagined perspective of an alien and I see zero difference between a niqab and a balaclava, and I see no reason, religious or otherwise, to expect one and not the other.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            The Criminal Code designates a charge dealing especially with disguises, which is exactly what the niqab is.

            I'm not sure that that is true. In the Criminal Code of Canada, the only section related to disguises I was able to find is:

            Section 351, (2)

            Every one who, with intent to commit an indictable offence, has his face masked or coloured or is otherwise disguised is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.
            http://everything2.com/title/Criminal+Code+of+Can…

            But that is only being disguised with the intent to commit a criminal offence. It says nothing about wandering around in public with your face covered.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            And in your experience do you find yourself encountering many people wearing balaclavas in your jurisdiction? This is what the criminal justice system calls "general deterrence"; people do not want to be accused of intending to commit an offence, a problematic piece of legislation in its own right. So you are free to wander around in a ski mask if you like, just as you are to do so in a niqab. Just don't expect to enter into a public domain without a wary glance or a request to remove your disguise. The bill addresses this exact such problem and is totally rational. I am still puzzled as to why you give Muslims a right the majority of unmasked Canadians do not and cannot enjoy.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            And in your experience do you find yourself encountering many people wearing balaclavas in your jurisdiction? This is what the criminal justice system calls "general deterrence"; people do not want to be accused of intending to commit an offence, a problematic piece of legislation in its own right.

            No, not really.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_(legal)

            I am still puzzled as to why you give Muslims a right the majority of unmasked Canadians do not and cannot enjoy.

            There are plenty of rights that are granted to a minority that the majority doesn't wish to enjoy.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            Do you have anything else to add besides what everyone else already knows re: minority rights? If you're defending that position, then defend it. Don't spit out a factum any Macleans reader is already familiar with.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            I think the post is clear. You are incorrect about the term general deterrence, and there is plenty of precedence regarding minority rights. If you would like me to expand on that, you could do so with courtesy.

            My point regarding the minority rights thing is that just because the majority do not wish to partake in something, does not necessarily mean it shouldn't exist. Currently, the city in which I live has about 25% participation in municipal elections. Given your logic, we should eliminate municipal elections because the majority do not 'enjoy' participation.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            I am not incorrect about general deterrence. I have explained what it is and you have not. You think you can just state an opinion without backing it up? You can, but don't expect anyone to lend it credence.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            I'm sorry, I thought you would read the definition of general deterrence that I posted.

            A sentencing objective which promotes the reduction of crime by the threat or example of punishment to the population at large.
            ” target=”_blank”>http://duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/G/GeneralDeterrence.aspx

            Unless you are saying that police will simply attempt to apply the law regardless of actual intent, and people will avoid wearing face covers based on that, you are incorrect.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            Second, I don't see any defence of the enforcement of minority rights. You have simply stated what I and any other living, breathing Canadian knows about the creation of what I call "reparation rights." Moreover, I've offered no opinion about minority rights thus far, so this "logic" of mine is all your own creation. This is my opinion: making exceptions and freebies for people on the basis of things beyond their control (ethnicity, sexual orientation, nationality) is bigotry full stop. There comes a time, and I believe that time is now, that we stop treating people like they cannot reach basic standards on the basis of their colour, etc. Everyone should be held to the same standard of accountability. Lastly, you continue to fail to grasp consequence. A person is free to dress however they want, but there are consequences to one's chosen appearance. This is the real world, not some imagined utopia where appearance doesn't matter, and quite frankly the niqab is a loud, flagrant symbol of us vs. them politics. The fact that not all Muslims dress this way should be your first clue about what it represents; the second clue is the Quran itself.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            A person is free to dress however they want, but there are consequences to one's chosen appearance.

            I understand consequence. If people want to wear those clothes, they should be aware that they may be ostracized, and won't necessarily integrate into society. I think that's their choice.

            This is the real world, not some imagined utopia where appearance doesn't matter, and quite frankly the niqab is a loud, flagrant symbol of us vs. them politics.

            Good for it.

            The fact that not all Muslims dress this way should be your first clue about what it represents; the second clue is the Quran itself.

            Have you read the Bible lately?

  • Bill Simpson

    I saw somewhere a photograph of some girls in Paris wearing a bikini and a niqab. I have found it an effective brake on most conversations on this subject, since it neatly exposes the absurdity of ANY discussion on the the subject.

    A simpler approach may have been to simply clarify those situations where photo ID is required…but this is much less fun than using this as a proxy for every other prejudice at large in this area.

  • Guest

    Steyn is flailing around trying to articulate a coherent position on this (his other article put him pretty squarely “with the intolerant (and therefore statist) Quebecers”. But it just demonstrates the lack of coherence in his views. Presumably he wants to limit immigration from some countries, and raise the fertility rates of “Western” people. Now how would that be accomplished without using the power of the state?

    And in addition to Siddiqui, it looks like Steyn has been reading Chantal Hébert in the Star.
    http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/790219…

    Chantal Hebert: "La langue est gardienne de la foi (language is the guardian of faith)," he stipulated a century ago to describe the relationship between the French language and the province's Catholic faith.

    Steyn: “La langue est gardienne de la foi,” Henri Bourassa said a century ago. The French language protects the Catholic faith.

    Hebert: Over the past 50 years, francophone Quebec has resolutely distanced itself from the Catholic Church

    Steyn: But the faith is long gone, and the churches are empty

    Hebert: Over the past decade, a steady influx of francophone newcomers to Quebec from North Africa and the Middle East

    Steyn: a recently arrived and ever swelling population from “French” (please, no tittering) North Africa and the Middle East.

    Hebert: Last weekend, an Angus Reid poll pegged support for the Quebec veil ban at 80 per cent nationally…

    Steyn: Which is why 95 per cent of Quebecers favour the government’s niqab ban. Even in the ROC, support is running at about 80 per cent.

    • Bill Simpson

      I don't see this. Steyn is probably closer to a libertarian than anything else in his politics, while he has essentially conservative personal opinions. So he can simultaneously bemoan the erosion of what we sees as Western culture by leftists, and the ever increasing influence of the state over free expression and personal liberty.

      It is possible to hold a set of views, and not simultaneously need the State to go and impose them on society. This is one of the points of this article, and seems a difficult one for many to grasp.

    • Lovekraft

      As a 41 yr old wasp, life in Canada hasn't been easy. Having to live through PC "hush, let's not talk about that" excuse for deep and proper discourse, I drifted apart. Now that I am free of those shackles, it is easy to see the chess pieces.
      This white knight is waiting in the wings, ready to step back in and get things moving again. Just as long as he gets the proper recognition. As it is, in Canada, the average Caucasian male is basically in indentured servitude, disposable and dismissable. I can provide proof of leftist bullying and other hostilities.

      The hope lies in Canadian men of the conservative bent to organize on an organic level, matching the left/islamic cohesion. Recently, another salvo was launched against the Catholic Church which, in my opinion was used to either divert attention or simply wear down. Then the Coulter fiasco tried to bring our Queen to her knees.

      Schopenhauer argues that only by denying the will and accepting that we are one is the only path to enlightenment. He takes Indian teachings and applies them to Western culture and his somewhat controversial views on women, suicide and animal rights puts him in the shunned shelf. But he loved the freedom that comes from abandoning our selfish desires in favour of a quiet complacency and respect for all.

      That is why I believe Conservative values are the only true avenue for one who follows the above, for one of the liberal mindset is unable to set clear boundaries.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Wakefield Wakefield Tolbert

      First of all, I seriously doubt Steyn has said anything about State Power being limited to just watching the demographic profile fall off the edge of the waterfall. He's called for tax breaks to help people in Western nations squeeze out more bambinos to shore up the birth dearth.

      As far as immigration, he's pointed out that whether legal or illegal, it needs to come to a trickle more than the utter geyser it is in most Western nations now actively engaged in fleecing the Third World of talent and labor in order to make ends meet with the pension plans, the payouts, and (US wise) items like Social Security.

  • MacLean's Regular

    Steyn doesn't hesitate to trot out early his lurid fabrications:

    "argued at length that it was most certainly the business of the state to end the practice of Maclean’s carrying Islamophobic Steyn columns."

    I highly doubt Siddiqui ever argued that it's the business of the state to end the practice.

    Mark Steyn is indeed merciful in resorting to distortion so quickly. Saves me (and anyone concerned with accuracy) the bother of reading any further in the belief that Always-Wrong-Steyn can get anything right.

    • Rob H

      The HRC complaint about Steyn's columns in Maclean's was exactly about ending them. The HRC's have banned people from printing and writing in the past and it was going to be argued they should ban Steyn from writing in Canada as well. Where have you been for the last 2 years?

      • Nonsense…

        That is nonsense, Rob. H. Look it up. The complaint did not argue that Steyn should be banned from writing in Canada. The complainants had asked to publish a counter article in Maclean's, and Maclean's had refused.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

          Wrong. If the quibble was with Macleans, the publishers, Steyn would not have had to defend himself.

          • Nonsense…

            Viva_Vivian,

            Here is the wikipedia entry which makes it quite clear that the complaint was against Maclean's in regard to a number of articles that included Steyn. It's easy to see how you would be confused given that Steyn has used a great deal of his columns in the last few years to, in his own interest and for his own publicity, portray himself as being put on trial, going to jail, etc.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_complai…

            "Human rights complaints against Maclean's magazine were filed in December 2007 by the Canadian Islamic Congress with the Canadian Human Rights Commission, the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal and the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Maclean's magazine was accused of publishing eighteen Islamophobic articles between January 2005 and July 2007. The articles in question included a column by Mark Steyn titled 'The Future Belongs to Islam'".

          • Gabe

            Nonsense.

            Thanks for the wiki entry on the subject. You appear to be well versed in it.

            Now go read it again.

            >> Faisal and Habib's complaint claims that Maclean's and Steyn, who wrote the article, violated Section 7-1 of British Columbia's Human Rights Code, which stipulates that a person must not publish or cause to be published anything that discriminates against a person or group, or exposes them to hatred or contempt.[7]

            What's this rubbish you're suggesting that the complaint was about getting a chance to rebut? Just because ElMasry and his cronies threw out 500 excuses for why they are taking the actions are they are taking (depending on audience) ,doesn't mean you have to be, well, non-sensical.

            Be logical.

            The whole point of HRT and HRCs is to be a venue for people to complain about violation of Charter rights, and the argument in this point is Hate Speech. If MacLeans did publish their "rebuttal". Steyn's article would not be any less "Islamophobic", or "hateful", if at all it were in the first place.

            So quit regurgitating non-sense, and smarten up.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            Nothing that you or Wikipedia have presented somehow exculpates Steyn from the quagmire. I have no idea what you're trying to say here — are you implying that Maclean's is to blame and Steyn's articles, which are named in that quotation you provided, have nothing to do with it? Maclean's wouldn't be charged if they didn't have the material Muslims find so offensive, and Steyn provided that material!

            Given the vitriol dripping from your posts re: Steyn I really wonder why you would get yourself so emotional over Steyn. Just don't read it. Also, if some designated victim group hauled me before the HRC and tried to take away my livelihood, I would never stop talking about it. It's not a petty thing — put yourself in his shoes.

          • MacLean's Regular

            He didn't have to defend himself Vivian. He chose to. Good for the career, especially a flagging one.like Always-Wrong Steyn's.

            Don't pick up his bad habit of being indifferent and reckless to matters of fact.

        • robert

          actually you are wrong nonsense. the accusers demanded money first in a shakedown. then they demanded that macleans accept their demands in which they controlled the content of the article without any editing and a writer of their choice. Macleans did not want to accept on the fact they were being told on how to run their magazine espeically on a piece that was going to be nothing but a rant

          • Orson Bean

            Bingo.

      • Mike T.

        So it's a good thing Steyn and MacLeans won handily then, right?

    • Gabe

      You are free to research Siddiqui's articles.

      Here's one of them (there's lots)
      http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/447121–ha…

      I suppose you're right though… he never really says 'I think this speech should be banned', only that the courts should make the ultimate decision, but that nonetheless this speech is "virulent".

      • MacLean's Regular

        It is virulent. I'm sure even Always-Wrong-Steyn would agree with that assessment. Last time I checked, "virulent" and "ending" don't mean the same thing.

        Let's be clear: These Canadian "First Amendment" warriors are fighting for the right to say anything they want. Hate speech, virulent speech, ugly nasty, insults, everything short of libel and….sometimes…speech that contravenes the criminal code (as opposed to civil rights law).

        Like the First Amendment champions in the US, they're also fighting for the right to evade responsibility for the exercise of that freedom, which is rather droll, since they're the ones who are always claiming that there are no such things as rights without responsibilities.

        • Gabe

          Look, why don't you quit beating around the bush and say what you mean. Or mean what you say.

          Let's be clear… "what"? Those Canadian "First Amendment" Warriors are fighting for the right to say anything they want.

          And you? You are opposed to that right?

          So you believe some Speech has to be ENDED by the State.

          Is Steyn's VIRULENT article to be ended by the state? Yes or No. What's your personal view. Do you think your tax dollars should be spent to let judges make that decision? And what would YOUR decision be?

          You start by denying what Siddiqui supports or does not support. A few months before this article I referenced, he wrote an article supporting the right of the Religious to "Theologically discriminate" against homosexuals and women.

          I suppose even he has different measures for what constitutes VIRULENT speech.

          If your intent is truly only to be a philosophizing rhetorician, do it on your own dime. Not on that of tax payers. And certainly not on mine.

          For now… stick to being honest about your views. Steyn's VIRULENT articles…. should they be pulled from the shelves? YES? NO?

          • MacLean's Regular

            "Look, why don't you quit beating around the bush and say what you mean. Or mean what you say."

            Why bother asking the question when you then proceed to *tell* me what I mean to say? In any case, just so you know: I don't submit to inquisitions from Steyniacs. Ask one question and wait for the answer. That's how dialogue works, dear.

            I'm tired of the irresponsible media (especially publicly-assisted publications like MacLean's) providing sinecures to people like Always-Wrong Steyn (and that's not just idle name-calling; he's been wrong about everything for the past decade) who think accuracy is secondary to an argument they never cease making. And frankly,, I'm disappointed that Canada's premier news and current affairs magazine has to be the place where this derelict ended up flopping after his productive career petered out everywhere else.

          • Gabe

            ?!?

            I assure you I'm not a "steyniac", nor am I "telling" you what you mean to say. I am asking you a direct question.

            Do you believe that Steyn's articles should not be published owing to their "virulent" nature? Yes or No?

          • MacLean's Regular

            Are "yes" and "no" my only choices?

          • Gabe

            Well I'm not quite sure what's in between. The gray zone. To say that Steyn can continue to publish if he alters what he writes, then to me that's a "No he should not be published".

            I don't intend to be facetious. Just honestly curious. So if you have an in-between answer, I'd love to hear it.

          • MacLean's Regular

            "To say that Steyn can continue to publish if he alters what he writes…"

            Who asserted this?

          • Gabe

            No one asserted this. This was my stab at an in-between answer. An in-between "Yes" and "No".

            You are the court. You have the Steyn file before you. You have read his Virulent article. And you are in a position to dictate whether or not he has broken any Human Rights Law.

            You are refusing to give me a Yes or No answer, instead asking whether "X" really said this, or "Y" really said that. I am asking you for a straight answer. A "Yes" or "No" answer. Guilty, Not Guilty. If Guilty, then you want to End his right to write. If Not Guilty, then you don't want to end his right to write.

            I was attempting to pre-empt the type of argumentation you are making now. Meaning, don't tell me "Are "yes" and "no" my only choices? ", then tell me you are not technically not asking that his Right to Write be Ended (depending on response).

            If there is a 3rd, 4th, 5th way of seeing this problem. I've asked you kindly to explain it. For purely pedagogical reasons that is.

            To date, I've received nothing concrete from this formidably "nuanced" interlocutor . Well except the line: "The Always-Wrong Steyn". It doesn't get any more absolute than that :).

          • MacLean's Regular

            If you're found guilty of a traffic violation, does that end your right to drive? Does it indicate necessarily anyone's desire to end your right to drive?

          • Gabe

            Yes… After losing 15 demerit points.

            Any more smart comments?

            Your analogy is rather silly. Yes- it does indicate someone's (the law's) desire to end your right to drive. The violation carries demerit points- and this indicates that by driving in a way that is not acceptable to the law, you earn demerit points. Some infractions are minor and allow you to err up to 15 times. Others lose you 7 demerit point in one fell swoop. Meaning. You err again.. you lose your license. That is tantamount to precisely the scenario I presented to you (and the one you attempted to be clever in… read two posts ago), where I suggested telling Steyn he can continue writing as long as he tones down his vitriol.

            Anyways, smarten up. And if your intent is to be clever, try a little harder.

          • Gabe

            Now that we've cleared that up. It should be clear enough that Siddiqui really was trying to "end" Steyn's right to opine.

            Funny coming from a Svengali who suggested the religious have the right to "Theologically discriminate" against women and gays (and in the Toronto Star no less- Canada's most popular newspaper is it?).

            The Svengali, and his adoring fan base (that appears to be you in this instance) spews repulsive views twice a week, and believes that the "Right of Speech" should be subordinate to the "Right to Religion".

            He's another clever one.

            Anyways dearest. Don't be dismayed that Macleans carries Steyn articles. You get the Toronto Star to withdraw the article of that odious Siddiqui, and I'll get out my pompoms and support you in your Inquisition against Steyn and Maclean.

            Deal?

          • MacLean's Regular

            Do you even understand English? Seriously, what you understand from what other people say is bizarre..

          • Gabe

            No. Me No Speaketh the Inglizee Language.

            Next time a cop stops you for doing 130 in a 100 zone, and gives you a ticket. I suggest you tell him you intend to continue driving at 130 km/hr.

            See what he does.

            Then come back and tell us all whether the ticket "indicates necessarily [sic] anyone's desire to end your right to drive?"

            LoL.

            Anyways. You should really stop being a Maclean regular. Or reading Steyn posts. Or commenting on Steyn posts. He's not as intelligent a creature as you are.

            It seems most of us are not.

            Now go and speed in front of a cop.

          • MacLean's Regular

            All this hub-bub just because I pointed out what a liar Steyn is.

            *tsk tsk tsk*

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

        Siddiqui is the same writer who compared the Tamil Tigers blockade of the Don Valley Parkway, St. Michael's Hospital roadway, and unruly rioting in front of Toronto embassies to the Santa Claus Parade. That's right — the Santa Claus Parade. He's got his back up so far he doesn't know the forest from the trees.

        • MacLean's Regular

          "He's got his back up so far he doesn't know the forest from the trees."

          If only we could get the state to end bad writing like this.

    • MacLean's Regular

      …And naturally, Steyniacs are as indifferent to matters of fact as Always-Wrong-Steyn is.

      I'd say it's part of their charm, but I mean…what charm?

      • Orson Bean

        Brilliant post. All name calling and insults, no factual argument whatsoever.

        • MacLean's Regular

          I don't believe I even proposed to make a "factual argument" in that last comment.

          It was wholly intended to be an insult. From your reaction, I can conclude I was successful.

          Yay me!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/philcou philcou

    "Western civilization will not be succeeded by a rainbow-hued utopia but by fractious and mutually hostile barbarisms", so keep up the hostilities Mark!

    • oilly

      the article quoted is perfectly correct barbaric is being polite

  • Mike Higgins

    Because a commentator argued for the state to take action in one scenario, he is therefore wrong and subject to riducule if he ever calls for the state not to take action in any subsequent column? What kind of absurd argument is that? For heaven's sake, sir, you seem more intent on angrily and emotionally taking on anyone you disagree with than making intelligent and coherent arguments.

    • waynemoores

      Well, they haven't been making any coherent arguments before. Why start now? They simply seem to have an irrational hatred of Mark Steyn because he points out the hypocrisy of their favourite hobby horses. Steyn could write a column about the formula for water being H2O and he would be denounced by the usual suspects here as being an ignorant f**k and not knowing what he's talking about. Cheers.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      When there is no coherent distinction for such actions, then the argument is perfectly sound.

  • hosertohoosier

    Most people have a line beyond which they would wish to limit free speech. For instance, most people do not believe it should be legal to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre. While this may reflect some sort of expression, it clearly imposes costs on others. For Steyn the public harm of people wearing niqabs while receiving public services is just too high to stomach. At the same time, he considers the harms of hate speech to be much lower. It is a consistent position, but it is also a ridiculous one.

    We regulate freedom of expression from a negative liberty point of view – the limits we impose are primarily in cases where the speech or expression in question harms some other person. For instance, libel, fraud, or leaking military secrets are illegal and few people would argue against that. There are also iffier cases – for instance, hate speech. Hate speech can be thought of as libel against a group (reinforcing stereotypes, etc.) or might sometimes incite others to violence. I actually think hate speech laws should be scrapped (it isn't as if the US is chock full of lynch mobs, despite its lack of hate speech laws), but there may be a shred of an argument there that hate speech involves harms to others.

    Wearing a niqab harms nobody, except perhaps the person wearing one. You may think it is stupid, and you may hate the ideals or culture that a niqab represents, but we aren't, and most certainly shouldn't be regulating on the basis of what people find offensive.

    Why does Mark Steyn think neo-nazis are less harmful to the public good than people wearing niqabs? I simply do not understand.

    • mrsid

      So, I can then dress in a set of white robes and hood and expect the same level of support from you? It is so good to know that Canadians are so understanding of freedom of expression.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

        I can't speak for the previous poster, but yes. If you wanted to do so, and be ostracized by society, you should be free to do so. Who are we to tell you what you can and can't wear when it, in no way, infringes on our rights?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

          Oh, the "who are we" defence. Who we are, are citizens of one of the greatest developed nations in the world and we have the right to impose legislation in a fair and democratic manner. If your goal is that people should be able to do whatever they want, regardless of what harm or "ostracization" it causes them, you are callous indeed. The purpose of immigration is not to just open the gates and say "have a nice day and good luck adapting." We have services and laws that help immigrants integrate. The niqab accomplishes the same results as a KKK uniform.

          What a worthy cause to support, that of a KKK member wandering around the streets in our free and democratic society. How shameful to stand for such a thing,

          • MacLean's Regular

            "The niqab accomplishes the same results as a KKK uniform."

            You should get a job as Always-Wrong-Steyn's fact checker.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            If your goal is that people should be able to do whatever they want, regardless of what harm or "ostracization" it causes them, you are callous indeed.

            No, not really. I just don't have the audacity to think that I know what's best for everyone around me. I may make suggestions. And I may personally try to help people out (point out things that I think would make it easier for them). But I'm not going to be mother hen to the world, and legislate their behaviour.

            We have services and laws that help immigrants integrate.

            I agree with services. I don't agree with legislation.

            What a worthy cause to support, that of a KKK member wandering around the streets in our free and democratic society. How shameful to stand for such a thing,

            Again, I don't support the Niqab, nor do I support the KKK uniform. I do, however, support the right to wear these things. I'm not sure that you see the difference.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            That's because you are an unfocused waffler who wouldn't be comfortable distinguishing the sun from the moon. In many cases, my dear, it really is just black or white. So carry on supporting the right to wear niqabs and KKK uniforms, an ignoble cause if I ever saw one, and carry on closing your eyes to the social and political consequences of donning such hateful garb. Because consequence is what is of real concern, not some imagined and hysterical hyperbole about an imminent government takeover of the proletariat's thoughts. You sound emotional and you've already stated you will not change your mind about anything, so I won't bother trying to answer your questions any longer.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            Either you aren`t reading,

            And I won't be bullied into changing that belief by a bunch of thinly veiled name calling either. So if that's all you (and the rest of the 'Oh, he's just a retard' crowd) have got, then don't bother responding because its not going to change anyone's mind.

            Or, the only thing you have is thinly veiled name calling.

            And, I'm not unfocused, or waffling. My position is clear: I do not support regulating the clothes people wear. It is very clear. It is black and white, my dear.

            imagined and hysterical hyperbole about an imminent government takeover of the proletariat's thoughts

            You clearly aren't paying attention. Have you talked to anyone from the UK recently? Have you read any of the coverage of the HRCs?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/craigola craigola

            At long last.

          • hosertohoosier

            I am more concerned with the ideas espoused by KKK members than the robes. Those ideas are most dangerous when they are subconscious, and/or hidden. There is at least a certain honesty in somebody espousing racist ideas wearing a garment that identifies them as a racist. I would be happy to debate with them any day. Preventing individuals from expressing their ideas allows them to play the victim, and makes it appear that they must hold some truth so scary that the government works to shut it down.

      • hosertohoosier

        I have no legal quarrel with somebody wearing KKK robes. If you explicitly incite violence, or lynch minorities, obviously that is illegal. KKK robes and naqibs are challenging cases because they represent values that are far from those held by most Canadians. However those cases are precisely the reason we have constitutionally protected rights. A government that is powerful enough to trample on the rights of a few, is also powerful enough to take away the freedoms of the many. Indeed, if you truly fear a KKK takeover of the government, or Islamic rule, isn't giving the state the power to control what people can wear and say the absolute worst possible thing you could do?

      • Katie Smith

        Yes, you are free to wear the white robes and I am free to call you a racist idiot … but if you start inciting violence of any kind against blacks or any other group you will go directly to jail … And I will be cheering ….

        Incidentally this is not a particularly good analogy … the white robes are a symbol of racism of overt (though cowardly) hatred of one group against another … the niqab is a religious symbol which has meaning to the wearer … a woman wearing the niqb says nothing about what she thinks of you …

    • super trite quotes

      We have an official "Fire in the Theater" moujik. Congratulations. Well done!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/RobinBC RobinBC

    Covering your face in public has long been illegal in Canada. Try it and walk down a street or better still into a bank. Using religion as an excuse merely shows you are not someone who accepts Canadian values and society. Identifying yourself is a fundamental criteria of being a citizen in our democracy. If you can't accept that you shouldn't be here.
    Canadians have been convinced that accepting Islamic society in our country is just another multi cultural thing.
    But Muslims do not accept anything about the Canadian Constitution except when they can use it for their own benefit. They only accept Sharia as law. Mohammed told Muslims to go along with local laws only so long as their numbers did not allow them to impose Sharia. England, the centre of Islamic terrorists in the West, has already allowed Sharia courts for Muslims, with no right of appeal to non Muslim courts. More recently Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia Thailand and Egypt are being pressured by Muslims to replace existing laws with Sharia law. Our idiot politicians have even tried to allow Sharia (in Ontario) for use by Muslims. Next step is always use by the rest of us. Over 22 countries have Islamic terrorist groups trying to force Islam and Sharia on their societies by force. This is not about the US, the "West", or Israel it is about the spread of Islam peacefully or by force, whatever is necessary. Islamic takeover of societies is happening all over the world and too many Canadians are to ignorant to see it.

    • hosertohoosier

      Nobody is asking you to accept Islam. Don't like Islam? Don't join it. Actively oppose it (it would help to have laws that truly allowed free expression in that regard, but you can say a lot without getting in trouble in Canada). The niqab debate isn't about tolerance, although it has unfortunately been framed that way. It is about freedom of expression and freedom of religion. Those are absolutely non-negotiable prerequisites of a democracy. Everybody who wants the right to push the boundaries of political correctness, and every Christian who fears government intrusion on their right to worship should stand four-square with Naema Ahmed. The same government that has the power to regulate clothing has the power to regulate our speech, our religion and perhaps our own thoughts.

      Sharia law was not implemented in Ontario – it was never even proposed in a bill. While some countries may have instances of Sharia law being imposed forcibly, that is not the case in Canada. If people were being forced to do things against their will in Canada, they would have legal recourse. We are a free society. If you want to fight Islam, and prevent the emergence of an Islamic caliphate in Port Hope – more power to you. The place to do that is in the marketplace of ideas. If the ideals of Islam really are bad for Canadians, you should not need to resort to using the powers of the state to crush all opposition. That is the equivalent of flipping the chess board over.

      • RobinBC

        Freedom of expression and religion do not trump Canadian law. In Canada marriage to a minor is illegal, clitorectomy of young girls is illegal, automatically giving children to the husband in a marriage breakup. All things that Sharia courts would have no problem with. And all things we allow Muslims to leave Canada to do, then come back without criminal charges.
        Covering your face in public is not an expression of religion (right to worship) it is an expression of the subjugation of women in Islam. Restricting a face covering is not an intrusion of a right to worship. Take it to the mosque.

        As far as Ontario goes, the idea of Sharia courts was promoted by politicians there, but crushed by rightful public outrage. This time. England was not so lucky.

        And perhaps you haven't noticed but the HRCs' in Canada already have the right to regulate our speech, except they won't charge Muslims who call for Jews to be killed in public or in Muslim meetings.

        • hosertohoosier

          Marriage to a minor is illegal because we do not grant under-18's full rights. Clitorectomy is illegal for similar reasons – children are in a weak position relative to their parents and may be coerced into female genital mutilation. Quebec's niqab bill does not make any distinction between people under 18 or over 18 – it regulates the activities of adult citizens. Moreover, marriage to minors and female genital mutilation represent serious harm to the individuals involved. Wearing a niqab does not cause harm to anybody, and many of the people wearing niqabs are fully fledged adults.

          It is true that HRC's regulate our speech and our expression. Do you think that is a good thing? Would you say that HRC's are reflective of Canadian values, or that they are unaccountable kangaroo courts (which is my position)? Assuming the latter, it appears that you don't really care about speech or expression, rather you care about whether or not speech/expression reflects your values.

          As to the looming Muslim takeover of Canada, you are talking about a group that represents less than 5% of Canada's population. Moreover, of Muslims, the vast majority are not extremists and do not seek to subvert western civilization. They are hardworking, honest people that came to this country to make a better life for their children. Even if every Muslim in this country was a snarling Al Quaeda supporter, they would represent no threat to this country. Do you honestly believe that the ideals of hardline variants of Islam are likely to appeal to anywhere near a majority of Canadians? To put forth just one example, what percentage of Canadians drink alcohol? Have sex before marriage? Are independent women? Are unable to grow impressive facial hair?

          The ideology you fear is so fundamentally un-Canadian that it will never gain widespread support. That is why we desperately need to have an open battlefield of ideas. Our Canadian values of a free and open society are infinitely more appealing, so why restrict an open contest by restricting speech of expression? Why deny people access to services that are, in part, aimed at integrating them into Canadian society?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            'Most Muslims are not extreme' is a misnomer. Islam is extreme. I invite you to read "Infidel" or "The Caged Virgin", both of which cite the Quran, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali or read any number of the documents published by Tariq Ramadan. Ramadan was on CNN recently and Christiane Amanpour asked him about his wishy-washiness on the issue of stoning of women. He said it COULD NOT be implemented in the West. He said the scholars needed to get together first and decide what to do about the issue. He could not render from his lips that it was wrong, just that the scriptures needed to be consulted first. He is a moderate Islamist.

            As Steyn said, the niqab is simply a front for the overarching, serious issue of open immigration and the continued implementation of separate rights for recognized groups in Canada.

          • hosertohoosier

            You are relying on caricatures, and appear to have never met a Muslim before. A recent survey of Canadian Muslims suggests both that the Canadian approach does a good job of integrating, and that Muslims are moderate:

            1. 80% of Canadian Muslims identify with moderates over extremists.
            2. 55% want to integrate into Canadian society, versus 23% that would prefer to remain distinct
            3. 72% were not worried about Muslim women taking on modern roles.
            http://www.unac.org/ready/en/research/Canada%27s%…

          • Kris

            Its all in the phrasing of the questions. I have lived in Ontario for the last 15 years and observed the slow cautious steps being taken by the Fundamentalist Islamic religious groups attempting to change the laws bit by bit. Yes the sharia law amendment didn't pass the first time but mark my words within 20 years it will. I personally find any proposed form of Law which presumes to supersede recognized Canadian law whether it be Jewish, Christian or Sharia to be abhorrent. Unfortunately our laws are becoming populist for the most part and that is what concerns me the most. As our legislators cast about for votes more and more of our freedoms are being restricted.

      • Joël Cuerrier

        So if someone want to spit on the floor in a classroom to express themselves, is it ok?

        • Joël Cuerrier

          Also stop making it about the STATE.

          It is about a classroom and the rules it can impose within it. It have been long established that things that are tolerated elsewhere are not in a classroom. It is usually well understood that you do not wear a baseball cap or a hoodie in class, that you do not make noises chewing gum, that you do not smoke in class, etc.

          It is neither about the State nor the Niqab. What business is it of anyone to force teachers to allow their students to do whatever they please?

          Some consistency would be nice. What about the right of the teacher to teach a class that is not distracted by irrelevant things like a lady wearing a Niqab?

          Students don't have absolute freedom of speech people… They cannot, by the very nature of a classroom, have free speech completely. The teacher sets the limit, that's it, that's all. A BIG problem with our education system is to have let the students take too much room, give them too many rights, not enough responsibilities and discipline. A teacher really is or should be the dictator of the classroom (he does dictate after all, in both senses of the word).

          The same thing is true in the workplace. Some will ask you to wear a specific type of clothing to perform your duty, it is not your right not to accept it, only not to take this job if it's inconvenient.

          Some libertarians are very confused about all this, making it all about the State which they oppose, when the freedoms should also apply to the public or private institutions and businesses to set the parameters they see fit. There is rules everywhere, the problem is to give too much authority to the government and allow too little authority to everyone else.

          There is a clear distinction too in discriminating against people based on their skin colour, sexual orientation or religion… and not tolerating the Niqab in a work environment or in school. Very different things. It’s dress code, which schools and work places regulate in general, without the State having to intervene.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            Thank you, thank you, thank you. People are imagining that we live in a world where we are free to do whatever we like so long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Not true and truly delusional. You can't enter places of business without shoes or shirt on your person. You don't wear a hat inside a church. You can't wear gang colours to schools. When you got to a night club or the Vatican, there is a dress code — people may be turned away on the basis of appearance. There is no legislation involved — these are social norms. It is rude and suspicious to cover your face. These things are not legislated, but Quebec is up against a wall with demands from an identifiable religious group who wants services from female public servants alone. The difference is quite stark — you can't wear a hat to write an exam at my university because it could hide earphones, but a hijab is just fine. As if Muslim women are the only human beings exempt from the temptation to cheat.

            You can cite whatever principle you like, but when you rule out human nature and realities of the world you lose the argument.

          • hosertohoosier

            You are inventing a straw man. I never said that people should be free to do whatever they want with no standards. As a libertarian, in fact, I support giving private institutions a rather wide latitude to turn people away. However, if you are going to do that in public institutions you need to have an exceptionally good case. Your argument is: "It is rude and suspicious to cover your face." In other words, it offends you.

            Well you know what, I think the name Vivian is offensive. It reminds me of the word vivisection. Vivisections are rather unpleasant, and I'd rather not think of them. Worse than that, Vivian is a sneaky sort of name – the sort a spy might have. If 50%+1 of Canadians shared my opinion, and decided to ban all Vivians from access to public services (until they change their name to a government-approved name like: Agnes, Bertha or Gertrude), surely you would have no quarrel.

          • hosertohoosier

            I agree that institutions should be able to impose restrictions on individuals using those institutions – I am not against standards. Private institutions can try to regulate what their employees wear, etc., although they have to be careful of issues like workplace discrimination. The niqab may not be a religious requirement, but it is a cultural one and ethnicity is in the charter.

            However it is absolutely relevant to talk about public institutions in a different light from private ones. As a society we given the government a monopoly of control over the delivery of various services. Limiting access to taxpayers is problematic, because there are often no other places individuals can go in order to get those services.

            At the very least, if we restrict access to services we need to ask:
            1. What harm to others is caused by the proscribed behavior?
            2. Can those who lose access easily change their behavior, and get access anyway?

            Your spitting example is rather trivial. Spitting impacts others, and it is very easy to not spit.

            Sikhs are required to wear helmets when riding motorcycles, for instance. While it doesn't pass test #2, there is a strong case rooted in public safety for #1. Children are not allowed to wear hats in the classroom. While there is a somewhat weak argument for this (it is not clear to me that they are distracting), it is very easy to not wear a baseball hat.

            Unveiling does not pass muster on either of those criteria. The niqab does not harm anybody. In rare cases where verification is an issue, there are relatively simple ways in which to accommodate (as has been done for elections). It is also unclear, as some have argued, that forced unveiling encourages integration. Rather, it breeds resentment, denies people access to services that try to integrate them into Canadian society, and makes women MORE reliant upon their husbands. As a cultural requirement, moreover, it is costly for people to unveil. It is not the same thing as not wearing a baseball hat.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

      Covering your face in public has long been illegal in Canada.

      I've seen this claim a number of times and I have yet to see anyone substantiate it. The only portion of the Criminal Code of Canada that I've been able to find anything related to disguises is Section 351(2) which relates to using a disguise with the intent to commit a criminal act. It doesn't say anything about wandering down the street.

      Since you clearly know something I don't, can you please point me to the legislation, regulation, or verdict that shows this to be the case?

      Section 351, (2)

      Every one who, with intent to commit an indictable offence, has his face masked or coloured or is otherwise disguised is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.
      http://everything2.com/title/Criminal+Code+of+Can…

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

    It really sticks in my craw to see people out-tolerant each other in the name of tolerance. The niqab isn't the turban, the crucifix, or the yamaka. People who paint all ethnicities and religions with the same brush as if all things are the same are delusional. Cultural relativism is a intellectual pitfall; you only show your ignorance of things jumping to the aid of a people who aren't even decrying this bill or others like it. One woman in the last niqab article Maclean's published said she would just emigrate from Canada if it came through. Naema Ahmed has taken up with the HRC. The Islamic Congress of Canada denounces it because it is not Islam, meaning the Quran does not mandate it. It is symbolic of oppression, yes, but it also guarantees that these women will never, ever integrate into Western society, a goal most religious zealots do not wish to attain anyway. If you don't think that matters, you're not much of a "liberal" coming to the aid of the poor, ethnic underdog.

    I wonder will there be a time when everyone is held to the same standard and there are no get-out-of-jail cards based on ethnicity, religion, or nationality.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Wakefield Wakefield Tolbert

      Like you, and Minaka below, I think I see where this is going even though our Muslim interaction here down in the States is somewhat less. The comparisons made here are that if you ban the head and body coverings, you'll also have to stop coverings for nuns and yamacas and crucifixes.

      • Joël Cuerrier

        How ignorant are you sir?

        "stop coverings for nuns"

        First, that is mostly long gone. Nuns today, in general, dress like every other women. However, nuns who do dress up, do it out of devotion to God. They also stay celibate and cloistered. The whole Clergy wear some specific garment, but not the rest of the rest of the Catholics!

        Very different things sir, Nuns are not going to public schools in their garment or trying to incorporate the secular workforce. They are nuns, that is their function in life, just like monks or priests or bishops, who also wear class-specific garment.

        Please don't bash Catholicism as if the nuns outfits had anything in common with the Niqab. There is the Clergy, then there is the Secular World outside of it. Clear distinction between both aspects.

        • Wakefield Tolbert

          I'll pass all this along to the Eastern Orthodox nuns (or sisters) who dress from head to toe in something other than standard female fare while working. No, it is no 24/7, and no, they probably don't teach in schools dressed like this, nor demand such, but they will dress like this on the street and while marching in protest to whatnot, etc.

          So I'm neither completely ignorant of the routine of the garb for some–nor anti-Catholic.

          You may relax now. I realize the Niqab is, in some Islamic traditions, garb to be worn all the time outside the home, and that this is not the case for nuns and other members of the various sects and denominations of Christian tradition that have these specialized roles. But the point remains–what level of offsense is non-offensive to some group?

        • Wakefield Tolbert

          Christianity is not universally revered for its charitable ages of witch burnings, torture, torment, and other niceties far removed from the image of Christ. And the Cross as a visible reminder to the blood and guts splatters of the Crusades is highly offensive to many Muslims and Jews as well, come to think of it. Already we have the banning of all religious symbols on public grounds demanded by groups like the ACLU, arguing that even the hint of symbolism on, say, a courthouse lawn hints of "establishment of religion", etc.

          So my question remains: Where is the line to be drawn?

          Hell is adjourned.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Wakefield Wakefield Tolbert

      People of all faiths have committed outright murder and have disrupted the societies in which they reside, but of late it seems one alone has taken on this mantle. So the association is there, and is often unpleasant. As you and others note, however, it is not necessarily a mark against the Islamic faith if a woman does NOT wear the niqab.

      She can remain chaste and not be an infidel whore.

      Having said that, while I understand the argument about "integration" into a Western society, keep in mind the very real danger some of the Steynpost detractors are pointing out that has an edge of truth: Where is the line in the sand on this issue?

      Shall we chase away all religious or fath-based artifacts, clothes, symbols, and whatnot from the public square?

      Down here people get agitated over Menorahs and plastic baby Jesuses on the courthouse lawn or even sometimes on private property.

      How much integration is required before people are fully "integrated" into one homogenized whole singing "kum-ba-yah" on the playgrounds?

      • Joël Cuerrier

        "People of all faiths have committed outright murder"

        People have commited murder. You don't need to add "of all faiths" in the middle there you know. Christianity and Judaism clearly state Thou Shalt Not Kill/Murder. So, officially, people who are practicing Christians or Jews should not kill in the name of their faith.

        Now, if you'll return to the Crusades for good measure, I will answer you that this was the Politics of the Catholic Church, not the Faith itself. People kill/murder in the name of States and servitude to various masters. It is not in the name of their faith, cause their faith consider it a sin. However, the Doctrine also dictate that it can be forgiven to murder to defend your country or your own person, against those who mean to harm you or murder you. In this case, the Crusades could be justified, because the Jihadists were invading Christendom. So it was an act of self-defense against invaders of allied countries.Of course, Crusaders lost the battle in the end, but their doings were not sinful, even if misguided. It was about defending the Holy Roman Empire. A lot of modern revisionism have went into dismissing the bloody history of the Crusades, as an injustice to those we attacked. But one could just as easily make the argument that it was a reaction to agression, which is justified by the Doctrine. (Again, I understand the Crusades went down quite badly and many innocent victims died as a result… but you can justify them in context to their era where Church and State was not separated… and the need to defend Christendom from invasion, which had been done since the very beginning of Jihadist agression).

        Islam does not consider murder a sin, that is the very big difference here. In some cases, murder can be justified based on the Islamic faith… without any real agression. You cannot murder if you are a Christian/Jew without being threatened first, as an individual or as a nation.

        • Wakefield Tolbert

          You've made some interesting points, and the context of what you say is most likely correct and something not understood. But that's just the problem. The context is no known.

          Likewise Muslims will argue that vast swatches of context are missing from what is essentiallly a combo of religion and POLITICS intermixed.

          I'm NOT justifying anything here, but simply was asking the rhetorical question of HOW far does a culture go to defend its own identity, vs. the inherent "rights" of this or that religion or faith that feels pinched by the rules, etc.

        • Wakefield Tolbert

          How far is far enough, and how far is too far, when it comes to the notion of getting everybody on board with common culture of an area? Should we in the States force the Amish to "get with the program", etc, and drive cars and use modern technology to help their children better integrate? Granted, they don't sever heads all that much, but they could be held at a distinct disadvantage after they decided to step off what many secular types call the "Progress Train" and hit the 18th centurty station, never to reboard.

          This is not a critique of their way of life. But just a question of how and to what extent societies have a responsibility to force integration.

          I do NOT claim to have an easy answer.

          And yes, in sum I agree that the horrors of Christianity had more to do with men and politics and their machinations more than the words of Christ.

  • Guest

    You can’t build a coherent argument in response to a complex situation around yourself and your personal hostilities. A week or two ago Steyn was all for the “intolerant Quebecers” using the power of the state, which is not something he would support were it not directed against Muslims. Rather than take the time to think his way through his own contradiction, Steyn goes on the attack against Haroon Siddiqui for what he perceives to be Siddiqui's, which of course, revolves around Mr. Steyn, as all things must (perhaps Steyn harbours a personal grudge because Siddiqui wasn’t as big a cheerleader as Steyn expects, needs and demands that everyone be). Going after letter writers in Maclean’s is another manifestation of the same thin skinned, all about me stuff that Steyn articles have become (name another journalist who stoops to this kind of thing). And now he’s doing the same with personal letters that weren’t even sent to Maclean’s. Steyn might do better to save his personal correspondence for his personal website, and take the time to think through the issues enough to present a coherent, intelligent and fact based argument in the pages of Maclean’s. As it is, they are too often factually incorrect, recycled versions of previous columns.
    http://mediaculpapost.blogspot.com/2010/04/mark-s…

  • FVerhoeven

    "The noxious brainwashing of our youth at Canadian universities is mostly concerned with theoreticals and abstractions. But the niqab and the burka are not abstract: they’re the starkest emblem of the gulf between one culture and another…."

    Yup, that would amount to the core of things as they currently stand.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/minaka minaka

    No less an authority than bin Laden's second in command the Egyptian al-Zawahiri has called veiled Muslim women soldiers in the Islamic army. He recognizes that they are a hostile force in the West, promoting a competing system of Islamic religious law (sharia) that is incompatible with Western law. They try to impose Islamic tenets even on non-Muslims wherever they can get away with it (e.g. no criticism of Islam is allowed under sharia and there are constant ongoing attempts to get westerners to abide by this restriction as well.

    Veiled Muslim women and their male keepers are the ones who reject the most basic requirement for civility in the West, showing one's face. They have 57 countries to choose from if they insist on shrouding themselves. Meanwhile, the countries that reject this throwback to the 8th century are diminishing in number.

    The niquab is optional even for the devout in Islam and its wearers are expressing their contempt for Western beliefs and westerners while reaping the economic benefits of living here. Natives who don't understand this need to bone up on the supremacist ideology/religion Islam and take Muslim spokesmen like al-Zawahiri at his word instead of proclaiming their own naive assumptions. He recognizes his "soldiers".

    Note that the women folk of the Toronto would-be bombers and the toxic Khadr family hiss their hatred and contempt of Canada through their niquabs.

    • KinburnSen

      Well said!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Wakefield Wakefield Tolbert

    Hell on earth.

    We ARE living in end times.

    The French might just save Canada.

    Just maybe.

    (Oh, Canda)

    avec plaisir

    • MacLean's Regular

      Likely a little-known fact for American provincials, but the word Canadien originally only referred to the French-speaking settlers of this country and did up until two generations ago. Everyone else was les Anglais.

      The French didn't save Canada. They created it. The British just found it a convenient way to maintain their influence in North America after they lost the revolutionary war.

  • Don

    There is simplicity and clarity to be found amongst the roar and debris of this particular question. The niqab is a political statement as is the hijab. Their purpose is twofold, one to make complete the subjection and enslavement of women and two, to intimidate onlookers. Islam is a political ideology, pure and simple. Mosques are political rallying centers. Muslims are no different than conservatives and liberals, it is simply a political party. It is a political party whose mandate is darkness, violence, murder, intimidation and rape. One need look no further than the vile sexual perversity of the "prophet" muhammad for the darkness that is islam. A confirmed pedophile in his "marriage" to a six year old child, muhammad is, along with the trappings of islam, proof that islam has no place in North America.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

      You and minaka will likely have no responses to your cogent arguments aside from name calling because no one who knows anything about Islam will dispute what you've said. It's the truth and it makes people very uncomfortable, but there is no argument to be had.

  • Margaret

    Have you seen the outrageous, ridiculous hats that Hasidic Jews wear? It's crazy. Has the Hutterites beat. I just see no reason to wear anything that's based on religion, it's an arrogance.

    • John D

      Baggy pants too! Ban them! Ban everything we don't like!

    • Adam

      There's an interesting article in this Macleans, on problems with Hassidim in Outremont..

  • MeMeMe

    Why are we wasting time with Islam's lack of fashion? Why not just kick them the hell out! Look at what they have done to the countries they have invaded across Africa and Asia. Do we want THAT to happen HERE?

  • OKAggie

    Per Michael Lefive: “Canadians freely expressed themselves. Ann Coulter is not welcomed. That IS freedom of expression! Hate-mongers need not apply.”

    Really? Did Ann Coulter come to Canada on her own, uninvited by any Canadian? Were there not Canadians planning to attend her speech, whether they agreed with her or not? Did she not speak elsewhere in Canada, welcomed by other Canadians? Who died and made Michael Lefive the spokesman for the whole dominion?

    Lefive couldn't have made your point any more clearly. The loudest, most censorious and intolerent Canadians had spoken, and then assumed that they spoke for all.

  • Mo Alberta

    As far as I am concerned the niqab or the burka have no place in western cultures that value freedom and equality. They are an overt rejection of equality and symbolize the subjugation of women and these pieces of clothing are intended to represent that. You may as well put a chain around her neck and shackles on her wrists.

    • John D

      You want to outlaw necklaces now too?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

        Necklaces are the same as niqabs……..really, Jon?

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