A slow-burn bonfire of liberties

MARK STEYN: Here’s what you get when the state hauls nobodies off to jail for quoting the Bible

by Mark Steyn on Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:00am - 285 Comments

Suzanne Plunkett/ Reuters

At the time of writing, I have no idea who’s won the British general election. At the time of reading, you probably have. But, whatever the result, I doubt it will make much difference to the fate of the United Kingdom, which is in the fast lane of the not-so-slow-burn bonfire of the liberties consuming much of the Western world.

The official “defining moment” of the campaign was Gordon Brown’s unguarded post-photo-op dismissal of Gillian Duffy as a “bigoted woman.” Mrs. Duffy, a plain-spoken working-class granny and lifelong Labour voter, had made the mistake of asking Mr. Brown, her party leader, a very mild question about immigrants from eastern Europe. He got back in his car and wrote her off, forgetting he was still miked. So she’s a “bigot.” He’s not. That’s why he makes all the decisions for her, and she just makes the best of them. What part of that don’t you understand?

The other “defining moment” got less coverage. Another “pensioner,” 74-year-old Roy Newman, got sick of the various party hacks knocking on his door and put a sign up in his front window: “GET THE LOT OUT.” Ninety minutes later, two police officers arrived at his home to arrest him for “racism.”

Racism? Why, yes. His sign was a piece of white card with red and blue lettering. Red-white-and-blue, geddit? The colours of the Union Jack. If using the same colour scheme as the national flag isn’t coded racism, I don’t know what is. Mr. Newman was prevailed upon to alter some of the letters to yellow, thereby diminishing the racist subtext.

With bigotry and racism running rampant, it was inevitable that homophobia would raise its ugly head. Dale McAlpine, a practising (wait for it) Christian, was handing out leaflets in the town of Workington and chit-chatting with shoppers when he was arrested on a “public order” charge by police officer Sam Adams (no relation), a gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community outreach officer. Mr. McAlpine said homosexuality is a sin. “I’m gay,” said Officer Adams. Well, it’s still a sin, said Mr. McAlpine. So Officer Adams arrested him for causing distress to Officer Adams.

In fairness, I should add that Mr. McAlpine was also arrested for causing distress to members of the public more generally, rather than just the aggrieved gay constable. No member of the public actually complained, but, as Officer Adams pointed out, Mr. McAlpine was talking “in a loud voice” that might be “overheard by others.” And we can’t have that, can we? So he was fingerprinted, DNA-sampled and tossed in the cells for seven hours.

The other day, upholding the sacking of a black Christian for declining to provide “sex therapy lessons” to gay couples, Lord Justice Laws ruled that “law for the protection of a position held purely on religious grounds is irrational, divisive, capricious, arbitrary.” Actually it’s the law of Lord Justice Laws that is increasingly “irrational, divisive, capricious, arbitrary.” Or as George Orwell, in Animal Farm, formulated it: all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. In the land of Laws, a gay is more equal than a Christian. A Muslim is more equal than anybody. A black man is more equal than a white man, unless the white man is gay and the black man a Christian. An eco-zealot is more equal than an Anglican. Not long before Lord Justice Laws’ decision on the “irrationality” of legal protection for Christianity, Tim Nicholson, a “Head of Sustainability” fired for questioning his property management group’s environmental policies, sued for wrongful dismissal under “Employment Equality (Religion And Beliefs) Regulations.” He wound up with the best part of one hundred thousand pounds after Mr. Justice Burton ruled that Mr. Nicholson’s faith in anthropogenic global warming was a “philosophical belief” on a par with religion. So the Employment Equality (Religion And Beliefs) Law protects belief in apocalyptic “climate change” but not in Jesus.

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  • Adam Samuels

    Who cares if some buggering fairy doesn't care to hear discussion of religion? Throw the sissy in jail, not the street preacher.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

      I'm not sure about jail, but certainly the officer in question should be disciplined. It is definitely a case of abuse of power.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

        It's not an abuse of power to wrongly detain and arrest someone on absolutely no grounds. It is criminal.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

          I tend to agree. But refusing to comply with a police officer tends to be one of those things that gets you put in jail no matter what you're doing. Right or wrong, it is the way it is, so the best you can really hope for is formal discipline, and, ideally, an adjustment of the culture in the police station that led to this event.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            You shouldn't tend to agree — you should just agree because I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the police are here to investigate crimes. No crime was committed, and it is a citizen's duty not to "comply" with a police officer's false demands. If you aren't getting my drift, and I apologize if I'm not clear, you need to frame it in another way. If a police officer tells you it is his duty to pat you down to make sure you don't have weapons and thereby orders orders you to remove your panties, it is wrong and it is not justifiable if said officer then arrests you for not complying. A society that lays down to authority "right or wrong" because it is "all you can really hope for" is not a First World society — that's why we have refugeeism in this country.

            The Christian in question should be able to voice whatever repugnant opinion he likes under British law. Social ostracization is the answer, not "renegade" police officers.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

            I entirely agree. But I live in the real world where I've been pulled over enough times for driving while younger than thirty to believe in the fairy tale of the good police officer.

            I assume the man with the gun will use it, and I work from there. Which is why I advocate for fewer laws. Its better to just not give them the opportunity.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            The real world does not have a high rate of police officers pulling guns on people for "driving while young" and I think you know that. This isn't the United States and this isn't a Hollywood movie. It's not even Afghanistan; the police are under strict regulations in this country to adhere to the principles of to serve and protect. FYI, as long as you are under 18 in this country, you can pull a gun on a victim, even shoot him and not face jail time under the Y.C.J.A. unless the Crown puts forward a motion to have the defendant tried as an adult.

            So first, you're paranoid at best and hysterical at worst re: police using guns. Second, you're extrapolating the issue. This isn't about you. If you're for less laws, something we disagree on, then you can't be for this officer's actions. So where's the argument? I think you're anti-police due to media influence, and I understand why, but I can't side with that. These guys do a job I couldn't do and I have penultimate amount of respect for them. I have no respect for people against them as a group. Individually is a different issue.

          • RunningGag

            then you can't be for this officer's actions

            When did I say that I was? Not once did I say that I was. Please point to where I said that I was for this officer's actions?

            I think you're anti-police due to media influence

            Thank you for completely dismissing my opinions. I'm not anti-police. I simply don't believe that they're all great people. They're all human; they make mistakes. But they all have guns. That the person with the gun may be punished afterwards doesn't help me if I've been hurt because of it. Its about self-preservation.

            These guys do a job I couldn't do and I have penultimate amount of respect for them. I have no respect for people against them as a group. Individually is a different issue.

            I agree. Nowhere did I say that I am anti-police. What I said was that I don't believe in the good-cop fairy tale, where the police are all benevolent heroes. Most are heroes. But there's also a good portion of them are hyper-aggressive alpha males with an authority complex.

  • russ in nc

    Once again I invite all you good hardworking English speaking Englishmen and Canadians to come here to the US of A and leave behind the decaying remnants of what formerly were proud and mighty nations. We truly do need you.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

      When you say "decaying", do you mean "American Banking System" kind of decay, or "Detroit" kind of decay?

      • P.F. Undit

        Or you can stay and rot. That too is perfectly fine.

  • No NDP

    Worth Repeating by Melanie Phillips

    As communism slowly crumbled, those on the far-Left who remained hostile towards western civilization found another way to realise their goal of bringing it down.

    This was what might be called ‘cultural Marxism’. It was based on the understanding that what holds a society together are the pillars of its culture: the structures and institutions of education, family, law, media and religion. Transform the principles that these embody and you can thus destroy the society they have shaped.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

      Indeed. Ever since we legalized gay marriage, straight people suddenly realized they could get divorces. It truly has destroyed traditional marriage, just like you said it would.

      • Viva_Vivian

        I have no problem with gay marriage. I actually see nothing wrong with it, but I do see it setting a precedent for polygamy. Seeing as thousands of mosques carry out polygamous marriage ceremonies on the daily in Canada despite the fact polygamy is illegal and homosexuality is not, the next obvious step is a legislative reversal on polygamy. Once that's done, we edge closer to shari'a law in the name of equality. Shari'a is the antithesis of the leftist ideaology, but it won't matter because leftists think Muslims are brown and must be protected from whitey. This is the basis of No NDP's very cogent parallel.

  • Revnant Dream

    Since when do government agencies have ideological “causes”? And what happens if you disagree with their “cause”?

    This one sentence to me. Sums up the whole evil enterprise of State censorship. Including State run Star chambers by the said same censors. This is a monstrousness compromise with totalitarianism. It is like a sort of blood poisoning. The weaker the patient the more delusional. Till death with dissolution. The welfare State kills the soul & spirit of any people till its final collapse into lawlessness. Than the Strongmen appear with guns. With iron eyes holding no pity.
    Thanks for a good read Mr. Steyn
    JMO

  • No NDP

    The State in western liberal democracies, becomes a puppet of special interest groups, assuming thy have sufficient support. The far left has a number of themes: it's anti-Israel,anti-American, and anti-corporate culture. others have formed a coalition with the far left, in order to have their voice heard. This includes jack boot feminists, same sex individuals, and minorities such as the Canadian Islamic Congress. As the status quo was not and is not acceptable to them, they want change in order to gain a greater foothold in the society. Case in point is affirmative action, and the recent Ontario sex ed curriculum, which was planned in part by same sex groups.

    it's about time Canadians woke up.

  • sven

    let's just kill their leaders and convert everyone to Christianity.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

      Hey Anne, nice to see you back in Canada.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/CTM Claudia Lemire

        Hahaha…please don't say that!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/minaka minaka

      Again, lib one-sided flippancy, this time using an Ann Coulter quote who knows more about Islam than her patronizing detractors. Muslims aren't just saying these words of killing and converting. They are embedded in their faith, history and holy scriptures.

      The historical choices for non-Muslims vanquished by Muslims were three: convert, be killed or live as a dhimmi with inferior rights and paying extra taxes. Presently, there is not a single Muslim country out of 57 that grants equal rights to non-Muslims, and several in which they are ethnically cleansed or outright murdered as in Darfur's black genocide by Muslim militias and the be-headings of schoolgirls in Malaysia.

      That's 500,000 killed in Sudan alone, with millions burned out of their homes and displaced, but by all means, let's rag on Coulter some more. How outlandish SHE is to point out tongue in cheek what others are actually implementing in spades.

      Libs have something wrong with their moral GPS.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

        This is where I fail to see the legendary liberal empathy. When it comes to Islam, they care not for the millions of Muslims being killed by suicide bombers, roadside bombings, stoning, decapitation, and other modes of good old fashioned murder. Because Canada hasn't been hit yet with terrorism they don't think it's a "problem." They also think that Mohammed, a warrior, is the Islamic equivalent of Jesus, a peacemaker. But that is because they don't know anything about either.

  • PJ Grev

    My father grew up in Germany during WW II. My grandfather was arrested by the Gestapo shortly before the war and fortunately was released without harm. He was a decorated WW I veteran who always referred to Hitler as the "Little Corporal". My father's take on it was that the only information available was Nazi propaganda unless you listened to the BBC for a counterpoint argument. The minute government starts to limit political speech is the beginning of the end for without robust uncensored debate all is lost. The reason any group tries to control the argument by restraining free speech is because they know their argument will not stand the test of the common man's common sense conclusions about the debate. It all boils down to the old adage, if it looks, acts and walks like a duck it is probably a duck. When people try to dress up a duck to look like an eagle when in reality it is a turkey they try to blind you so that you won't see it is a turkey. When that doesn't work they continue to work on your senses until you are either dead. give in to defeat or continue to fight the good fight until you have won. Which group do you fit in?

    • Lost History Buff

      Very well said PJ!

  • Sean callahan

    Right on Mr. Steyn. How can anyone be baffled by the rise of something like the Tea Party movement when Western democratic governments are proving so hostile to liberty?

  • http://www.japanorama.com/prj.html PacRim Jim

    No longer recognize England, the left little, bereft little island.

  • blaine

    this, alas, is where the gynocracy leads us. White females dominate these HRCs and are the group most vociferous in defending them. Until we finally accost and hold accountable this most privileged of groups, we will continue to see our rights eroded. Let's be honest: you will find a lot more women who think like jennifer lynch than you will men who think like warman (though he is execrable and should be publicly flogged).

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

      You might want to go get that prescription refilled.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/CTM Claudia Lemire

        Or get me one to forget this post!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

          I'd suggest a nice Chilean merlot. Take two glasses, then call me in the morning. Or anytime you have wine.

  • Jamie MacMaster

    Britain, a silly little country. It’s what Canada wants to be when it grows up.

  • Mike

    I keep waiting for the nobodys to start saying "No". No violence, riots or stupid things like that. Just say no and keep saying it.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/minaka minaka

      That's what the Tea Parties in the United States are – nobodies crossing party lines saying no to big government and big debts in a peaceful way in demonstrations where the streets are left cleaner than they found them and at the ballot box.

  • http://www.thepolitic.com Mark Peters

    An excellent summary of the insane state overreach that now defines Britain. Thanks again Mr. Steyn.

  • Thomas_L…….

    It's beyond me why the central premise, that laws intended to censor free speech are and will be used by unscrupulous people and groups to shut down speech that they disagree with and stifle much needed debate which will lead to a fearful and less free society, is even a matter of much controversy. It's happening all around us.
    I don't know what I get a bigger kick out of, however. Steyn's fine articles or the twisting logic of the ninnies who don't get it but feel a need to ridicule in such hilarious, self parodying ways. Good one Mark! Keep allowing the nitwits to reveal their nitwitosity.

  • JohnK

    Good article Mark. Sorry for the many leftists here who mad a deliberate choice to stick their heads in the ground and start attacking you. Unfortunately it seems as if we have less and less sensible people in the world.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

      " …less and less sensible people in the world."

      I'd suggest you changed that to the gramatically correct "fewer", but it's far funnier the way you wrote it. Even funnier, you won't know why even when you look at it…

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

        You do realize all you and Claudia Lemire have done in these comments is tear down other commenters personally — that is, when you're not sucking on each other's private parts. It's pretty obnoxious, aside from been infantile and worthless to the discussion. Why don't you write a comment, not a response, on what you think of the article? Your constant sarcastic vitriol only amounts to public self-flagellation.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

          You'd be one of the " …less and less sensible people in the world." then?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

            Again: Why don't you write a comment, not a response, on what you think of the article?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

            I've done that already. Slightly cheeky, but a realistic criticism of the overhype of this subject, one that Mr. Steyn has thoroughly covered in previous missives. I suggested he might have phoned this one in, instead of trying something new. For that questioning of the newsworthiness of the topic, I'm at an impressive -40 rating.

            This, it seems, is a poor place for rational debate. Take, for example, the post above, the one which begat this exchange: The poster begins by congratulating Mr. Steyn on his work, then apologizes for the "leftists" who disagree with his position. Then intimates that those who disagree with him have a lack of sense.
            When one states the position, at the beginning of an argument, that the opposing side are idiots, what profit is there in debate with such a person?

            Instead, I amuse myself with snarky jabs mocking the poor grammar and logic skills possessed by those who seem to feel entitled to dismiss my position out of hand. These people time spend furiously typing an angry response and creating fake accounts to thumb me down, which I suppose keeps these folks away from others in real life. Perhaps I'm doing a public service?

          • Viva_Vivian

            Oh right, "slow news week" is a cogent criticism of Mark's article.

            As for your self-described modus operandi:

            Definition:
            1. troll
            One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

            As such, I will not feed you any longer. Good day.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/minaka minaka

            M_A_N overestimates his importance imagining that people create false accounts merely to swat down his jejeune ramblings.

            Leftists usually project their own proclivities though so it's likely M_A_N is the one with multiple accounts.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_N M_A_N

            That last sentence was great, by the way. Start with a supposition and statement of unprovable opinion, then follow up with a completely groundless accusation based on your own flawed premise.

            Oh…and no, there's just one of me.

          • minaka

            Um, who first made the groundless and paranoid supposition and statement that people were creating multiple accounts to "thumb" him down? That would be you. Thus you demonstrate another truism about libs – their hypocrisy, lecturing others about exercising the same rights they give themselves.

            What you call an accusation is a hypothesis firmly based on a lifetime of experience with leftists. Projection of their own evil intent and methods onto others is characteristic. Whenever a leftist accuses you of something, it's prudent to entertain the notion that he's guilty of it himself.

            As for there being just one of you, we'll try to contain our disappointment.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Spock2009 Spock2009

      Maybe that's why 'common sense' is so uncommon.

  • Kifaru

    "As I always point out in retailing the latest idiocy from Canada’s “human rights” fanatics…" — Mark, I didn't know you worked in retail. Congrats!

  • vangrungy

    I think J Rad has too much to say about nothing.

  • Anders

    One thing I've never understood is why so many people have a hard time differentiating between tolerance and agreement. As someone who practises a form of Christianity, I tolerate a world in which people do wrong (including sins committed by yours truly–see my past comments for proof), but that doesn't mean I agree with those actions. For example, I don't believe certain sexual behaviours are morally and scripturally acceptable (this goes for both straight and gay people), but I tolerate their existence. I wish they didn't happen, but I accept that we live in a society where it does happen. I would never use violence or hatred to try to stop it from happening, because it's just as immoral as the acts to which I disagree. I may try to have a reasonable discussion with these people, but I also know there is a good chance they won't understand my point of view, and I have to accept it.

    At the end of the day, I feel that we should devote a large portion of our lives – to modernise a Scriptural example – pulling the stick out of our own eyes before we pull the speck out of others. I do feel we should express concerns to our fellow man regarding their actions if we feel it is detrimental to their well-being or the well-being of others, but people should never use violence or hate to accomplish this.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Spock2009 Spock2009

      In other words, don't act like God! (Ref. the Old Testament)

  • Viva_Vivian

    We've all learned our Eurocentric history, haven't we, as Canadian citizens. We all know the terrors visited upon the Africans, European Jews, and Aboriginals. What many of us fail to grasp is the social evolution that has taken place since. I would argue, and I have read it in a textbook in fact, that being openly bigoted went out of vogue post-WWII. It is no longer socially acceptable to call someone a n*gger in public without facing serious repercussions from your peers — as it should be! These peope are ostracized in modern Western society and that's as far as it needs to go.

    So we are policing ourselves as a people. We know bigotry is wrong and we do not condone it in public. Why does the state feel it needs to place legislative repercussions on its citizens to combat a problem that I feel hardly exists. Racism as I've always learned it involves the institution. We cannot force individuals to be open-minded. Let them voice their bigoted opinions and face the real life consequences from their fellow man. It's already happening, has been happening, and will continue to happen.

    • minaka

      None of those people you listed who did have terrors visited upon them were only victims. All in their time and place and when they had the opportunity have visited terrors on each other and weaker tribes. Even Henry Gates, Obama's friend and Harvard chairman of black studies recently wrote about how African blacks sold their fellow blacks into slavery both before whites arrived and to them. Obama's Muslim Kenyan ancestors may well have been slave dealers while his wife's ancestors were apparently brought from Africa as slaves. Does she hold his black or his white half responsible?

      The irony is that for the most part, non-whites' sins are "whitewashed" while only whites are held accountable and apparently with no expiry date.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

        I don't believe they are victims, but as someone who has grown up in the post-multiculturalism education system, that is how it is portrayed to us. It's a one-side-of-the-coin historical account upon which citizens are indoctrinated to feel guilt for acts that were committed hundreds of years ago. My question is, how long are we going to keep on paying tax-garnered reparations to the Aboriginals for? As a child of an immigrant, colonialism has absolutely nothing to do with me and I would argue it has nothing to do with everyone who lives in Canada now. People who want to argue for keeping natives trapped in the cycle of welfare-mediated helplessness are incredibly narrow-minded.

        Fact: apartheid in South Africa was based on the Canadian reservation system. Fact: Gladue court, which treats natives differently under Canadian law, has set a precedent for Jewish-law in Family Court and the HRC, and will continue to be extended to any other group seeking group rights (ex. shari'a). We are in a dangerous downward spiral and the proletariats will not face the truth when they see it.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/minaka minaka

          We're in agreement on the gist of things but perhaps not on the details. For example, Native chiefs and their organization are the ones most responsible for continuing the reservation system as is because they (though not their people) benefit from it handsomely. Even Jean Chretien like a stopped clock right twice a day came out with an excellent reform program when he was Minister of Native Affairs but he and others since then have been completely spooked by the Chiefs who haul out the racist card.

  • Lovekraft

    There are numerous potential powderkegs around the world, Arizona recently entering the picture, where the clash of civilizations will be writ large for all to see. Whatever act this is in the greater play is up to the analysts to decide, but things will become much more vivid long before Western ideals and culture is swamped by Islam.

  • russ a californian

    We keep denying the obvious. Humans have not evolved equally. Charles Darwin's "Descent of Man" in 1870 put the lie to Thomas Jefferson's "Enlightenment" notion that "All men are created equal". It turns out that we are not created. It turns out we are not equal. It turns out that one or two species of man ("races") evolved above and beyond all the other species ("races") and we are now witnessing the Darwinian process of "Survival of the Fittest", the "Law of the Jungle". In the end it will be either Caucasians ("whites") or Asians ("yellows") that will dominate everything to the point that all other species ('races") will be pushed to extinction. Because that's how evolution works. Thomas Jefferson was wrong. America was founded on a lie.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

      That's social Darwinism you're talking about, not scientific Darwinism.

      Species don't evolve "above" one another. A species is differentiated from another based on the requirements of its success within its environment. For example, a person with white skin "lost" the enzyme that makes pigment or deposits pigment due to mutation. The mutation became beneficial biologically (due to physiological energy conservation) to the white human depending on their environment. In a region where the sun is not as intense such as northern Europe, the white skinned person conserved energy by not having to generate pigment and was also suited to their environment where sun protection was not needed. Therefore, the frequency in genetics changed over time, which is the first indicator of evolution.

      The value of a person that you are assessing on biological terms is a false construct and completely misunderstands the meaning of Darwinian evolution.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/M_A_D_world M_A_D_world

    When the worlds troubles come down to such nanny picking nonsense; "civilization" should be kicked off the cliff.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/minaka minaka

    Yes. Character and self-respect are built by overcoming obstacles on one's own, not running to snitch to the nearest commission.

    The rankling of taunting and social ostracism can be a great motivator. It made me determined to learn such fluency in English that I would out do those who teased me.

    My immigrant parents understood that their presence might threaten Canadians as they arrived at a time that jobs were scarce. They admitted to themselves that they might have resented immigrants coming to their own country under similar circumstances. For every unkind remark, there was someone neutral or even welcoming. That's all my parents needed. They bent down to a lifetime of hard and honest work and EARNED the rights of citizenship and people's good opinion.

    The present policy of fanning resentments on the part of IMMIGRANTS makes absolutely no sense. If refugees, they should be grateful for safety alone as my parents were. If voluntary immigrants, you made a choice. Either way, you've won the lottery on arriving in Canada. The opportunity has been granted. What you make of it is up to you, not the responsibility of the Canadian taxpayer.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Viva_Vivian Viva_Vivian

      A response rooted in reason. Thank you.

  • Chezwick

    Ahhh yes. The bogeyman of Western intervention and Israel's existence are responsible for the growth of Islamic extremism. How true you are to the multicultural narrative.

    1) Iran is a single country. US-British intervention in 1953 may have been good or bad, depending on one's point of view, but to suggest this singular event is responsible for the Islamic reawakening occurring today around the world shows the extent of your willful denial.

    Isn't it possible that the Islam of the first half of the 20th century was an abberation?…a hang-over from Western colonialism, when most Muslim societies embraced Western notions of modernism, nationalism, and even socialism? This is why, when you see film of Egypt, Jordan or elsewhere in the late 60s, none of the women are wearing headscarves.

    Isn't it possible that the spread of extremism was a natural phenomenon, based on ISLAMIC exigencies?… a latent reaction to Westernization that gathered steam precisely because Muslim societies were now independent and therefore re-asserting their identity.

    2) If Israel didn't exist, are you suggesting for one minute there wouldn't be a jihad in Chechnya, southern Thailand, southern Mindinao, Kashmir, Western China, etc., etc?

    Sorry to disappoint you, but Islam's 1400-year history has been constant in its unremitting warfare on unbelievers. The late 19th/early 20th century is the exception, and this is only because the Christian world was so far advanced that Jihad was temporarily abandoned as a mechanism for self-preservation.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

    so I guess we need Iran to rationalize the 'blame the West' narrative

    Aaannnnd,. we're done. I find it interesting that you are completely unable to have a conversation without taking the chance to toss in insults.

    • Chezwick

      What I find interesting is that you couldn't refute any of my central points…on Israel and mostly on your chimera that were it not for the actions of the West, Islam would have somehow defied its essence and reformed itself.

      The West is far from perfect and has indeed run roughshod over other peoples and cultures in its history, but it is certainly not unique in this regard. But all the indignities of colonialism aside, it was a time when religious freedom was at its apex in the Muslim world; when Christians. Jews and others were momentarily free from the liabilities of dhimmitude…and yet Muslims remained free to practice their faith.

      I suggest you abandon the propensity to view the Muslim world through Western eyes; they are not terribly motivated by "poverty" or "injustice" or "oppression"…the subsistence farmer in Bangladesh is much mess likely to be a Jihadist than an educated engineer in Cairo. And though poverty and injustice are the motives the Leftists typically ascribe to them, they are in fact motivated first and foremost by RELIGION….and all the concessions in the world will not change their theological dictates.

    • Chezwick

      PS – You call this an "insult"??? My God! It's obvious you're hiding behind such delicate sensibility because you can't fashion a coherent counter-argument.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/RunningGag RunningGag

        I debated whether or not to respond to this, but I decided that I would give you the benefit of the doubt, and explain my perspective.

        When you say:

        so I guess we need Iran to rationalize the 'blame the West' narrative

        You are questioning my motives. The suggestion is that I am intentionally twisting the facts to justify a preconceived opinion. In essence, you are calling me a liar. You are questioning my integrity. And, as a person who values their integrity, I find that claim highly insulting.

        I frequent these boards because I enjoy conversation, and I enjoy learning. When a person makes a claim counter to my opinions, unless it is completely ridiculous I try to take the time to research what they've said. Its about the truth.

        And frankly, when I have to wade through posts that contain contempt and disrespect, I makes me disinclined to put the work in. If you want to take that as me surrendering to your mighty intellect, please feel free to continue strutting around with your chest puffed out. I really don't care.

        But I'm not going to spend my time getting annoyed because you can't practice basic manners and common decency. That isn't fun for me.

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