Inkless Wells

Inkless Wells

Paul Wells on all the latest out of Ottawa—along with the occasional post about jazz. Follow Paul on Twitter: @InklessPW
He also offers his thoughtful perspective of Stephen Harper’s last 10 years in his recent eBook, The Harper Decade.

Hey look: There’s a faith war? Sign me up!

by Paul Wells on Friday, May 14, 2010 12:48pm - 285 Comments

From the print edition, my column about Marci McDonald’s book The Armageddon Factor. I think she overstates the influence of Christian conservatives in Stephen Harper’s Ottawa in a way that saps her book of too much of its credibility. I have said similar things before, when her book was germinating as a long article in The Walrus.

But as McDonald points out on her book’s last page, I admitted last summer, when Tony Clement was making up transparent lies to camouflage the cutting of tourism-promotion grants to gay and lesbian community events, that I often have “second thoughts” about whether she had a point. And indeed, in one of the most-read and most-remarked pieces I’ve written this year, I went on at some length about the influence of social conservatives, including what she calls Christian nationalists, in Harper’s Ottawa. I myself have argued that there’s a real presence with real clout. So what’s got up my nose this week?

Maybe just sour grapes (Can you get sour grapes up your nose? Bet that would hurt). You’ll be a better judge of that than I could be. But I think there’s more to my disagreement with McDonald than that. Two things, I suppose. First, it’s irresponsible to write a book about a phenomenon that systematically overstates the extent of that phenomenon. All the more so if you adopt a constant tone of near-panic. (I note, however, that this is not a new technique for McDonald. Almost my favourite part of her book is the bio on the jacket flap, which notes that “her study of the backstage machinations behind the free trade deal led to her book, Yankee Doodle Dandy: Brian Mulroney and the America Agenda.” Really? Her “study?”)

Which leads us to the second, bigger problem: McDonald nowhere specifies which religious attitudes, or which secular policies derived from religious attitudes, she finds unacceptable. Bill Blaikie ran for the NDP leadership on a platform explicitly derived from the social gospel; is that OK? McDonald quotes Scarborough Liberal MP John McKay saying he finds the Harper gang scary. Wow. Really? Why? What are the specific differences between John McKay’s okay Christian nationalism and Dave Quist’s scary terrifying Christian nationalism? ‘Cause it was kind of hard to tell the difference during the Commons vote on abortion in international development assistance.

The last time I took a hard run at a colleague, it was at Mark Steyn over a column he wrote on the purported rise of extremist parties in Europe. Boiled down, my assorted difficulties with that piece amounted to a concern that Mark was not merely failing to define his terms, he was culpably refusing to. Mark Steyn and Marci McDonald must, I am sure, disagree about almost everything, but when each takes great length to announce that “they” are taking over, I develop considerable curiosity over who “they” are, and what, precisely, my problem with “them” is supposed to be.

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  • Margaret

    The "they" become a problem, when citizens of Canada are not having their needs met BECAUSE the government is overwhelmingly Evangelical. "They" are forcing their views, which means that they are forcing certain conditions upon – the people of Canada WHO DO NOT SHARE THEIR BELIEFS.

    This is why religion is important. If it affects the day to day, logical, reasonable, activity of the government, and turn it into a place where you are refused a service, or your lifestyle becomes illegal — because the government goes to a church where they speak in tongues . . . (which S. Day used to) — then "they" are a big concern.

    Very dishonest article. I'm disappointed in Macleans, but I suppose I shouldn't be.

    • Tom

      Why? Because it didn't stroke your prejudices?

      The fact is, the Harper Tories ARE NOT the religiously-driven monster of your caricature.

  • Margaret

    And this is why no other religion should be able to force their physical views, that is – nobody's religious beliefs should be able to impact the lifestyle of another person.

    The Law has to be completely unbiased, logical, and above the fray. Religion should never come into it.

    • hosertohoosier

      In what ways is an ideology – something that is at the base of every political party – unbiased or logical? Conservatives tend to emphasize order and economic liberty over equality and social liberty. Liberals take the reverse view. These are both values, which are not founded on a rational basis. You are interested in elevating one set of baseless beliefs over another – not the triumph of rationality over irrationality.

  • Bob

    So big deal the PM is Christian. What would you have him be?
    So he goes to church on Sunday. So do alot of people.
    This book writer is just disparaging Christianity and it is disgusting.
    I dare her to write such a book on Islam.No???
    Ya, they would threaten, but christians are open game, as they are a peaceful lot.

    Read more:http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/Armageddon+Fact…

    • Emily

      Another poster who doesn't bother reading the thread first.

    • Holly Stick

      The book is about fundamentalists, not about mainstream Christians.

    • Jeffo

      How is it that Christians have this idea about being "peaceful". Jesus Christ (whether a real or mythological character) preached a message of peace and forgiveness. Christians themselves, in positions of power, have not always followed that path very well. It was Christians who decided, after 9/11, to drop billions of dollars in bombs on Afghanistan rather than billions of dollars in food and medical aid. Which action would have been less likely to create more terrorists?

  • Terry Brady

    Paul
    I agree with T.J Cook on this issue.
    I too have been spending more time than i should, watching the train wreck that the United States has become.
    In no small part it is happening because the United States is being dismantled by two factions.
    The oligarchy who's mouthpiece is the GOP is in the process of deregulating "EVERYTHING IN SIGHT" which of course includes government. Anything for a buck, right?
    The religious right which includes too many wacko sects to count but are all generally categorized as Evangelical are eager to aid an abet the oligarchs in order to create a new dominion. The new dominion theocracy or theonomy ,depending on how radical it becomes, is to be designed for "world dominion".

    Who knows how successful they will be? But they have come a long way in thirty years. And fifty years ago these guys would have bee confined to preaching on street corners or in circus tents. They are patient fellows.

    It has often been said that when the U.S. gets a cold, Canada gets pneumonia.
    Right now the U.S. has full fledged pneumonia.
    I would advise you to take McDonald's book more seriously.

    U.S. blogs for your edification.
    Talk2Action
    Military Religious Freedom Foundation
    God's Own Part?
    Cornell University's Theocracy Watch (Can be seen on You Tube)

    • The Real Jan

      The enthusiasm for Palin and Coulter in Canada, by numbers of the Canadian right, is the canary in the coal mine.

    • David

      One should also consider that even the NDP are not immune to this religious take-over phenomenon.

      Just 2 years ago the NDP added a new religious commission (the Faith and Social Justice Commission) which gave official status to the "religious wing" of the NDP …. one of the first speeches given by Blakie in his capacity for the NDP F&SJC declared the enemy as "secular fundamentalism".

      So when even the NDP can be hijacked by religion … supposedly to "reach out" to people of religion to join with the NDP (but we all know that the result will more likely be the NDP moving policy towards the religious groups they are reaching out to rather than convincing the religious groups to recognize existing NDP policy … and I think a close evaluation of NDP policy changes over the last couple of years tend to show a rightward drift of NDP policy, or at least a rightward drift in the priority of their policies.

      When secularism is under attack from even the NDP, then I don't think there can ever be too much "hand waving".

    • CheMan

      I am a member of the MRFF (Military Religious Freedom Foundation) and see the impact that evangelicals are having in the US military. The only people joining the military are loser and fanatical losers (evangelicals). For the fanatics, Iraq and Afghan are religious Crusades. We condemn their Jihads while waging our Crusades.

  • Bonko

    Marci is on Evan Solomon's show right now giving the "Full Guergis". She is shocked – shocked! – that people have strong words for her. Soft, soft voice. Interesting is that she specifically corrected Evan that she claims there is a religious right, not a Christian right. She's been coached. Oops, she just said "Liberals have social prejudices too" Evan: "What is a 'social prejudice?".

    She's being disingenuous claiming her book is about the religious right. It's about the Christian right. She's again claiming that Harper is basing his Israel policy on evangelicals rather than, oh, I don't know, the Canada-Israel Committee, which Jeffery Simpson famously said this government "handed over" foreign policy to. Harper's child care was a, quote, "neocon" plan, and that the people who opposed state health care did so for religious reasons rather than, oh, I don't know, a wish to raise their own children and reduce public spending. Since the economic crash Harper has been pandering to economic conservatives, according to Marci. Well of course Marci, that explains the $50 billion deficit we now have.

    This woman is just too goddamned stupid. Sorry. No other way to put it. Evan was unusually spunky in this interview, I don't think he likes her or her book. Evan brings up National Prayer Breakfast and its diversity, she replies we have (nameless) Christian activists who are patterning themselves after American televangelists.

    Marci just claimed that we have a "constitutional amendment" – direct quote – guarnateeing separation of church and state. That of course explains the very first line of our Charter "Whereas Canada was founded upon principles which recognize the supremacy of God", and why our constitution guarantees Catholic schooling and why our anthem asks God to keep our land glorious and free. What a pig ignorant woman.

    • Emily

      Obviously you are unaware of the doctrine in these matters, or you'd recognize Harper's every utterance on them.

    • Orson Bean

      That is indeed an ignorant comment about our constitution. The Charter guarantees freedom of religion, but that's different from the American constitution, which has that provision about not establishing a state religion.

      Kind of ironic coming from Marci MacDonald, whose other book (on free trade) was obsessed with warning us about how evil the U.S. is.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/FVerhoeven FVerhoeven

      "Marci is on Evan Solomon's show "

      Watched it. Kudos to Evan for doing a great job countering Marci. Actually, I think Evan's voice is quite a refreshing one on CBC.

      BUT what a fake smile that Marci has. Unbelievable………

    • David

      Actually "our" constitution (or CoR&F) does not guarantee Catholic Schooling … the Ontario constitution is not the Canadian constitution.

      Pig ignorance is such a subjective term, isn't it?

      Why are we even having a national prayer breakfast in the first place? When are we going to have a national "rational thought" breakfast?

      The $50B deficit certainly didn't go towards any social programs … unless you believe that the ministry of Jesus was based on charity for big banks.

      • Bonko

        The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not our constitution, that's your first mistake. It is only part of the Constitution Act. Secondly, Ontario does not have a constitution, though I give you points for originality, I've never seen anyone make that error. Third, you're wrong, section 93 (2), not the Charter, guarantees Catholic schooling:

        "(3.) Where in any Province a System of Separate or Dissentient Schools exists by Law at the Union or is thereafter established by the Legislature of the Province, an Appeal shall lie to the Governor General in Council from any Act or Decision of any Provincial Authority affecting any Right or Privilege of the Protestant or Roman Catholic Minority of the Queen's Subjects in relation to Education:"
        http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/const/lawreg-loir…

        Why are we even having a national prayer breakfast in the first place?

        "Why are we even having a national prayer breakfast in the first place?"

        Seem reasonable in a country that is 90% religious. Tell us more about your plan to ban religion, it seems not to have worked out well in the USSR and Maoist China and Pol Pot's Cambodia but maybe you can build on their efforts.

  • FVerhoeven

    "First, it’s irresponsible to write a book about a phenomenon that systematically overstates the extent of that phenomenon."

    Indeed, because by overstating anything, the author has in fact become the creator of the phenomenon, and consequently writes about such phenomenon in turn. That would be too good to be true, would it not? But hey, it's a crazy world out there – on both sides I may add.

  • Richard

    This is a re-post of a comment I made on Wells original article:

    My support for Macleans has grown significantly because of Coyne and Wells and this article is a perfect example of why. Coyne is willing to criticize Conservatives when they abandon conservative fiscal principles and Wells is willing to criticize Liberals like MacDonald when they engage in screaming hysteria.

    The most important point of the article is the following: In a free country all citizens have a right to participate, demonstrate, and attempt to influence the course of public policy and legislation. They can do that by running for political office, forming advocacy groups, writing opinion columns, or holding rallies in Stanley Park. Wells realizes this and his voice is an important caution to liberals, especially considering he has often pointed out areas where he feels evangelicals are having influence, and still refuses to call their influence evidence of a vast underground theo con takeover of Canada. The reason pro lifers are trying to change abortion laws is not rocket science. Neither is the reason gay advocates or feminists try to influence legislation.

    Liberals need to be careful because if they choose to speak like MacDonald and many of the posters on this board they will be the ones coming across as the crazy fringe obsessive lunatics and not the devoutly religious people they seek to paint that way.

    • The Real Jan

      Interesting that Wells took much the same flack as MacDonald is getting, when he wrote about Rights and Demicracy. And from the same crowd.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

      "Wells is willing to criticize Liberals like MacDonald when they engage in screaming hysteria."

      Is McDonald a Liberal? Can you back up that statement?

      • The Real Jan

        Hey – she's critical of the current government AND appears on the CBC – she has to be Liberal.

  • John W.

    There is a lunatic fringe of the fundamentalist evangelical extreme conservative Christian right in the United States. I don't think Marci MacDonald is saying we have that here; but she is saying we should be aware that such dangerous movements are possible here. These are people who don't believe in science for example. The Tea Party movement, Sarah Palin, The Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Fallwell factions are powerful. They are pro gun, homophobic, anti feminist, and militaristic. They are not peaceful tolerant people. Ms MacDonald has done a service in highlighting this issue.
    I don't know where Wells is coming from. I don't think he wants a Canada where these people set our policies and agendas on social issues.

    • H.(Bart) Vincelette

      Having followed conservative Christian websites for a number of years now; I can assure you that we do indeed have such a lunatic fringe here in Canada. Granted; fewer of them as a percentage of the 'faith based', but they are out there & in your neighborhoods. No one I know is suggesting we round'em up & incarcerate them, but I think it is important to be aware. We are a ,……..dare I say it??,…..secular democracy.

  • PlaidShirt

    Class assignment
    Hypothesis: Evangelical Christians are trying to create Armageddon.
    Experiment: Everyone visit an Evangelical Church this Sunday and report your observations back here on Monday if you find ANY evidence of this.
    Just because Marci MacDonald couldn't find any evidence in 4 years of trying doesn't mean you can't.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Brammer Brammer

      I don't care what they do in their Church, as long as they stay out of my bedroom, my schools and my government.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

        …and my freaking hospital.

  • Wascally Wabbit

    Other than Wells being green with envy – and Cosh being "Cosh-ish" – I don't think either of our current Macleans scribes have convincing arguments putting down Ms. McDonald's premise (well actually two).
    She thinks there is an orgnaized movement – premise #1 and she thinks they have infiltrated the government #2.
    Well – evidence of the movement popped up on Parliament Hill yesterday – no doubt about that – and there has been pretty good evidence of late of various policies that Mr. Harper hoped to fly under the radar wich have surfaced and been largely scuttled.
    I'm not sure how much weight you need to be convinced Mr. Wells – but there is far more than a smoking gun here – as far this correspondent is concerned!

    • Orson Bean

      Yeah, but it's the use of the word "infiltrated" in your post that speaks volumes. By that standard, EVERYONE has "infiltrated"government. Every interest group, corporation, what have you, organizes, lobbies, supports or doesn't support certain causes, candidates, bills, policies, etc. etc. It's called participating in Canadian public life.

      It's the innuendo and the tone of pieces like Marci MacDonald's that are so inane. It's this over-the-top suggestion that because of the mere participation in politics, public life and public policy — which we all have the right to do — evangelical Christians are somehow doing something evil and insidious. I'm not a Christian myself, I think Christianity is basically silly, but I don't deny them the right to participate in public life and think it's insidious when they do so. Why is it not insidious when CARAL or the CLC does the same thing?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/TJCook TJCook

        "It's the innuendo and the tone of pieces like Marci MacDonald's that are so inane"

        Such as? Have you read her book? Maybe you could quote us some stuff.

        • Wascally Wabbit

          @Orson Bean – infiltrated would appear to be an appropriate word Mr Bean. No-one on the government side has denied the religious persuasion of those named – starting of course with Stockwell Day. In fact, it would be hard for them to – because Stephen Harper himself (with strategic support of Tom Flanagan) – did quite a number on Day's religious convictions when they were both fighting for the leadership of the Reform / Alliance.
          I guess the point that raises concerns for me is the "absolutist" evangelical zeal of these groups. I support a legislative agenda that gives Canadians choice – and an item that was settled years ago – or so I thought! The fairness of that legislative agenda is – they are permitted to follow their own interpretation of their moral values – no-one is forcing them to conform to the standards that others have adopted. But they claim that everyone who does not support them is "a murderer" in their eyes. I really do not have much time for folks who on the one hand say – no choice and on the other – condemn the bearer of a foetus conceived outside of wedlock as a "fallen woman"!

          • TedTylerEzro

            Who do you think pays for and supports those "fallen women" outside of the government?

            Who do you think emotionally supports those who regret the abortion they had?

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/thenonconformer thenonconformer

    "THE IDEAS of "Christian nationalist" leaders are presented as a "dark and dangerous vision" in Marci McDonald's new book" and so what else is new for Satan the angel of light supposedly.. Hatred is actually still a sin

  • Jim Benham

    There is an important difference between public policy positions based on reason and evidence and positions that are based on myth. We must start being intolerant of myth-based explanations when it comes to important public policy decisions. I welcome social conservatives to provide evidence that the embryo has a soul, or that the sky-god exists and infact forbids homosexual marriage, or that Israel must keep all of the holy land so that the conditions for the Rapture will be just perfect . But we should hold these faith-based explanations to the same standards as other truth claims. For too long rationalists and atheists have been tolerant of god-talk in the public sphere. We were being polite. It is time to impose what Sam Harris calls Conversational Intolerance in the sphere of public policy. Any position based on scripture or on the unsubstantiated instructions from the sky-god should be derided the same way that holocaust deniers are derided for their baseless assertions.

    • s_c_f

      provide evidence that the embryo has a soul

      There is no proof that anyone has a soul. Does this mean that you are therefore against all laws prohibiting murder? The fact is, you don't need to prove anything about souls to be against abortion. You don't need scientific proof that killing people is bad.

      the sky-god exists and infact forbids homosexual marriage, or that Israel must keep all of the holy land so that the conditions for the Rapture will be just perfect

      I think that 99% of social conservatives or other religious people don't say or believe any of these things. You're making this all up to try to tarnish their views. Most people have reasonable arguments for their political positions. Non-religious people do not have a monopoly on logic, reason or science.

      I'm an atheist, but I have more in common with most Christians and religious people than with lunatics like you. You have no respect for individual rights or democratic principles. And don't attempt to speak for all atheists with statements like "we were being polite". I can assure you that most atheists think your views are abhorrent.

  • Mulletaur

    Wells is right to point out that the mixture of religion and politics is not the exclusive reserve of the Right. Also, I'm not quite sure how the Religious Right is supposed to be more scary than the Religious Left. Both combine power dogma with religious dogma, the latter of which cannot be appealed, at least while living. Perhaps if we could all dispense with dogma altogether, the world would be a much better place. There would certainly be a lot less conflict and needless death.

    • Holly Stick

      The Left is inclined to consider women as equals. The Right is not.

      • Mulletaur

        There are good and bad ideas on both the left and the right. That's not the point. The point is that when such ideas become dogma we lose our way. Worse, dogma leads to conflict viz. 'culture wars'.

      • s_c_f

        That's not true. There is more tolerance on the left for societies and countries that treat women as insubordinate to men. It's the left that supports Palestinian society over Israeli society for instance, the latter a society where women are denied basic rights. It's the left that is tolerant of Iran, where women have lesser rights than men. It's the left that has been against the Afghanistan war, a place where girls are given an education for the first time in history thanks to the efforts of the Canadian and coalition forces.

    • David

      Actually there isn't much difference in "scary factor" between the religious left and right … except the religious right is much more immediately scary.

      Look, 2 year ago the NDP added an officially recognized religious policy arm to their party (The Faith and Social Justice Commission,) ostensibly to "reach out" to lefties of religious faith to embrace NDP policies … what we've seen since then is a steady move rightward by the NDP. Now I don't know if you are left or right leaning, but it does the political body of Canada no good to have all parties moving in one political direction, and having religion being the "moving factor".

      • s_c_f

        I find it disconcerting to see people like you attribute efforts to gain the votes of religious people as threats to the political body of Canada. It's a bigoted view. You seem to believe religious people should not have the right to vote. What we have in Canada is a democracy, despite the efforts of people like you to deny people their democratic rights.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Crit_Reasoning Crit_Reasoning

    Can we please get rid of that stupid "Share on Facebook or Close Message… Share on Facebook" thing?

    • Mulletaur

      Praise the Lord … oh, was that the wrong thing to say ;-)

  • evenflow

    When I hear up and coming politicians state that 'we must put a stop to the Christian prosecution in this country' and the room erupts in agreement, I have to include that Mr. Wells is not fully aware of what is going on in this country.

    There is a determined effort to impose their ideological beliefs on the rest of the country and yes they are involved in politics. In fact a group of them helped put Harper in power. They exist and are dangerous and ignorant.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Saskadan Saskadan

      This Christian Paranoia is laughable. The christian nationalist zombies are coming to get you! Be afraid! Be very afraid!

      • evenflow

        So are you saying I should not believe what my own eyes and ears tell me? Yes you would like that wouldn't you.

        No what I saw and heard does exist and the fact you try to dismiss it shows you are either with them or just plain ignorant.

      • W. B.

        They murder, and condone the murder, of doctors.

        • saskadan

          ok this is getting silly, I am sorry there are people that have killed abortionists and condone killing them. These people are not Christians. Even if they might label themselves as such. I am sorry your view of Christianity is so skewed.

          • W. B.

            The people Marci MacDonald is talking about are not your Tommy Douglas, Martin Luther King Christians.

        • Orson Bean

          I guess, by W.B.'s logic, all muslims are suicide bombers.

  • Gaunilon

    Am I the only one who finds this "Comment posted. Share on Facebook or Close Message or Share on Facebook" block that takes up half of every comment a little annoying? Sharing on Facebook could be interesting, but maybe it could be done as a small icon at the bottom rather than a huge block at the top?

    EDIT: And on reading the commments, I see that I'm not the only one.
    EDIT2: And I also see that when editing, if you don't delete all the html crap that is used to create that block at the top of your comment, it gets added again and produces a complete disaster.
    EDIT3: That was fast. As I've said before someone at Macleans must be reading our comments, poor soul.

  • hosertohoosier

    I think most people fail to understand the meaning of separation of church and state. Our model of separation of church and state goes back to a letter concerning toleration. Separation does not mean that public policy informed by a religious perspective is illegitimate. It means that the government should refrain from establishing a state religion (and must not persecute minority faiths). Some policies may not explicitly establish a state religion but do endorse one set of values (eg. placing the ten commandments in public buildings, mandatory school prayers, having social services delivered exclusively by a particular church). We are not talking about anything close to actual policies that we see implemented in Canada today. However, many contemporary secularists have reinterpreted separation to mean that religion has no place in public policy debates. This is utterly ridiculous.

    In a democracy, people may come to various policy positions through a vast array of means. Old-school atheist Marxists and liberation theology Catholics probably have a great deal in common when it comes to issues like social welfare. Neither Marxism nor Catholicism represent a set of empirical truths. Rather, both entail arguments about what a just life and a just society should look like. There is no way to objectively prove that either is correct, although we can look at data and reasoned arguments with respect to the policy positions taken by either. This gets even more pronounced when we are talking about social issues that are rooted in existential debates. The abortion debate, for instance is fundamentally about what it means to be human in a morally relevant sense. It is impossible to prove either side as some sort of objective fact.

    Secular Canadians do not have to endorse the invocation of religious arguments within public policy debates, and do not have to vote for parties that use such arguments. Nonetheless, using religion to justify a position is no different from using an ideology. Both are subjective notions of justice. Those who seek to eliminate religion from public discourse clearly do not understand the idea of tolerance.

    • peter

      appropos of everything else here, has anyone else read "The Right Nation" by The Economist writers Mickelthwait and Wooldridge? It's six years old now and covers much of same terrain as McDonald with scholarship instead of hysteria and fear mongering. I won't read her book after hearing her interviewed on CBC radio last Tuesday, but ask this basic question, "How can a country whose laws are based on the ten commandments and the moral perpective they bring to the table govern a population that fails to grasp the fundamental truth that over 2,000 years have produced a culture that dominates the world and provides best standard of living for the most people with the greatest tolerance for dissent ever?" I just don't think our history is all that bad taken as a whole.

      • evenflow

        Its intellectually dishonest to assume our laws are based on the 10 commandments. With this logic I could very well argue that our laws are based upon the fundamentals principles of Buddhism.

        Thou shall not kill is a belief shared by many.

        • peter

          NO, in fact it is a extension of the truth that the Queen (Crown) derives its legitimacy from the Bible (what country do you think King James was the King of?) and the British Soverign is the head of the Church of England and if that Soverign fails to abide by the Christian articles of faith they can not serve as Monarch. In the BNA we in Canada adopted all the traditions and conventions of the UK, ergo you are utterly wrong at law and in fact. you may wish to think otherwise, but what I am presenting is 100% solid. Deal with it or ammend the Constitution

          • evenflow

            You are basically saying that if the 10 commandments did not exist we would not have the same laws we have today and I disagree with that.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Habitant Habitant

            The Queen of England derives absolutely no legitimacy from the Bible, no matter how you interpret it.

            If anything, the gospels speak of rendering unto Caeser's… This could just as easily be interpreted as an acknowledgment to secularism (or, at the time, paganism).

    • H.(Bart) Vincelette

      I do not know of anyone attempting to eliminate religion from public discourse, but I am aware of many who are convinced that freedom of religion includes the right to deny, eliminate, or diminish; the rights of others. It doesn't.

  • 'berto

    Sorry, Paul. I often agree with you, but not this time. You ask who "they" are? "They" are groups like "Focus on the Family Canada", who got one of their own into a key position in the PMO. Some people call these people "social conservatives", or even "militant 'Christians'"… I would say it's more accurate to call groups like "Focus on the Family Canada" an offshoot of its insidious southern parent, a hysterical group of lying hypocrites, fixated on 'homo-SEX-shew-alls' (and their attempts to block *any* human rights for them) and determined to totally dictate a woman's right to control her own body, based on FOF's "understanding" of Bronze-Age mythology. They traffic in such outright lies as "reparative therapy" (praying away the gay) and telling women that abortion increases the risk of breast cancer. Nothing is too low for them to stoop to, and any deceit is fine by them, as long as it is done 'for the greater good'… even if it puts people at vastly higher risk through unsafe 'back-alley abortions' or increased risk of suicide by desperate gay men and women who don't understand why this 'cure' isn't working. FOF is vile, contemptible and, in a just society, would be standing in the dock on charges of fraud. And that's just ONE of the disgusting organizations that are nestled in the bosom of the PMO.

    • John W.

      Thanks for trying to wake these people up.

    • H.(Bart) Vincelette

      Exactly correct. 'They' also include groups like Family Research Council, & REAL Women of Canada. They cushion their agenda of hatred, exclusion & bigotry with warm'n fuzzy names using terms like "family".

  • Bob

    So, its open season on attacking Christians now.
    What the heck is a Militant christian? Is it like a Militant Muslim?
    Funny, I just dont see Harper in that role.
    He appears to be a quiet Church going man, not unlike many Christain Canadians.
    So, give it a rest already.
    Or is this part of the Ekos "culture war" sponsered by the Liberals to slime the conservatives??

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

      I think it is a part of the Ekos "culture war". That was one of the dumbest political ideas I've ever heard, because it has no basis in reality, which makes a poor foundation for a political platform in a democracy.

  • Dobby

    So, you would prefer Sharia Law instead?????? In Canada?
    Just Checking with all of you who hate the Christians so much?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Habitant Habitant

      So our choices are evangelical law OR sharia law? Is that it, nothing else?

    • H.(Bart) Vincelette

      I'm in complete agreement with the premises of M. McDonald's book, & have lived in the US & seen first hand some of the fanaticism of the religious right, but my criticism of them & their rhetoric & tactics do NOT involve hatred.

  • Rifkin

    I would have to have a closer read of McDonald's book before commenting as to whether Wells's comments are accurate. Out of all the Ottawa hacks working out there, Wells is probably the one who makes the biggest effort to rip people from all parties, and also strives to apply a standard bs detection template to what people say (and measures it against what people then do). So, I would tend to believe his comments about her book. However, she is likely just as happy to get the free publicity as anything. If it is the type of book Wells says it is, it will only appeal to the people who have long ago decided that Harper is the devil incarnate.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/s_c_f s_c_f

    I think Wells is right, and Marci McDonald deserves all the criticism people can dish out, because not only was her book essentially a hyperbolic hit-piece, it was also factually inaccurate throughout, as other reviews have shown in detail. She really deserves to be skewered by reviews.

    I think Bonko and Richard above do a good job as well.

  • Smith

    I think what we're not talking about is that Evangelical Christianity does NOT represent the majority of Christian Canadians, who have traditionally practiced a more tolerant and, frankly, less militant form of Christianity.

    This verbal "slight-of-hand" (sorry!) obscures that a "south-of-the-border" style hard-a** evangelicism is taking over the public face of what once was a very moderate, reasonable, kind and forgiving, but admitedly too naive, Christianity as practiced by the majority of Canadians.

    • Smith

      woops, that should be "sleight-of-hand"…

  • Susan

    I can't believe that you are having this conversation – religion is one hundred % about controlling women and sex – surely we have gone beyond that by now – guess not. I have spent my life being grateful that as a woman I was free – these guys just want us back in jail.

    • joy

      as a Christian feminist I will have to disagree with you …

      • Susan

        That's a contradiction in terms – there is no such thing.

  • http://www.socialconservatives.ca Ted

    From the limited opportunity I have had to read some of the statements in McDonald's book it would seem that her hysterical warnings and dumbfounding leaps of "logic" are a real danger to democracy, in contrast to some of the supposed danger she warns of. Her book endangers democracy by apparently seeking to delegitimize a whole group of people and deny, on the basis of their religious beliefs, their right to peacfully influence government.

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